Name: Scent the Undead
Cardtype: Action
Discipline: Protean
[pro] Bleed and put this card on a ready vampire controlled by the Methuselah who is bled. Vampires with Protean have +1 bleed against this vampire's controller. This vampire may burn this card to go to torpor.
[PRO] Enter combat with a ready vampire controlled by another Methuselah.
Thoughts?
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> agzocgud wrote:
> Stackable? Seems crazy-strong.
>
I don't know. 1/ it's a bleed for 1 2/ the card is put on the minion only if the action is successful 3/ the vampire can burn all the copies on him anytime by going to torpor (which can be done during the controller's turn for immediate rescue). 4/ only vampires with protean have a +bleed, meaning they probably won't have a big ousting discipline.
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> I'd be tempted to instead make it at more like Unholy Penance at superior and a 'burn to rush' at inferior.
>
Unclear. By choosing to put the rush at superior, I avoided a "weenie pro agg" effect which can already be achieved with plain Bum's Rush. I wanted to strengthen a weenie-pro bleed and fight concept.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> 2/ the card is put on the minion only if the action is successful 3/ the vampire can burn all the copies on him anytime by going to torpor (which can be done during the controller's turn for immediate rescue). 4/ only vampires with protean have a +bleed, meaning they probably won't have a big ousting discipline.
>
The kiev circle say hi. They almost all have pro, they have a strong bleeding modifier, they can hope to stealth throught, and they can be 4 vampire pretty easily.
I would limit to one per methuselah because usually it won't hamper the card, and it would avoid being bled for 10+ in one turn.
Note that you can put the card on differents vampires of your prey.
In the card itself, I find it lovely for city gangrel (and kiev circle), with some use for other clan (another reason to play protean toreador ?). The fact that Flesh of marble is very good against celegun and animalism combat make protean a good choice anyway.
inferior is unbelievably strong. Like this, stackable, and in clan with access to multiacting and stealth, it is too much.
Not to mention that removing it is horribly difficult
> Ankha wrote:
> I don't know. 1/ it's a bleed for 1 2/ the card is put on the minion only if the action is successful 3/ the vampire can burn all the copies on him anytime by going to torpor (which can be done during the controller's turn for immediate rescue). 4/ only vampires with protean have a +bleed, meaning they probably won't have a big ousting discipline.
>
I don't necessarily want to wait until my turn before I burn this, though. If I can get several of these going in a single turn, I can hit you for a lot. And with a small deck, burn-option cards and twister tech (including the obvious Ashur), it's not all that difficult to get a few of these at once, then switch to something that doesn't require my prey to have a ready vampire if necessary. If you can get 3 off with 4 vamps out, that's a bleed for 1, then 2, then 3, then 4
And, of course, I've played Fame on the target. Don't want to be bled for four? Take a hit of three pool instead.
Also, there's plenty of scope for Madness Network out-of-turn decks. Like the Rotschreck decks of old. If I'm doing this in my grand-prey's minion phase, my grand-predator's minion phase, my predator's minion phase and my turn, is that fun for you? You go to torpor, I rescue you and force you to pay. Or I eat you, depending on whether you have another vampire for me to screw with.
If the 'correct' defence is then never to have a vampire out against the deck so it jams, that's bad design. Potentially good play by the player, but bad design by the designer - we shouldn't be encouraging people not to play the game.
> FrançoisV wrote:
> Am I reading your idea wrong or is the inferior version a superior Madman's Quill on steroids, for a non-bleed discipline ?
>
Not completely "on steroid", because it can be deflected, burned before the next bleed, and it's more easily removed cross-table.
Which point to another problem : it screw people without redirection even harder than before.
The third problem being that a pro / dom deck will also love this card a lot. The supposed disavantadge is that you bleed usually for one, then the card is removed. But if you bleed for 3/4 with conditioning, or use Bonding to stealth it, or something, it begin to be even more maddening.
In short : limit to one, add a blood cost, and maybe keep the actionless remove but with something a bit less violent (burn 2 blood ? succesfully hunt ?)
The idea was that if you let the bleed pass, you should be punished by something worse than if you had blocked (meaning it punishes decks that don't play combat at all and it expects you also to play some combat).
This being said...
>
> Ohlmann wrote:
> The kiev circle say hi. They almost all have pro, they have a strong bleeding modifier, they can hope to stealth throught, and they can be 4 vampire pretty easily.
>
They all have pro (meaning they can't use the rush part) and have indeed access to some bleed cards (though only 2 of them have SAN that allows to play Walk of Caine not "as announced") and some stealth. This could be an issue indeed that could be solved by switching inferior and superior, or removing some stealth to the action.
> Ohlmann wrote:
> I would limit to one per methuselah because usually it won't hamper the card, and it would avoid being bled for 10+ in one turn.
>
This is also an option.
> Pendargon wrote:
> inferior is unbelievably strong. Like this, stackable, and in clan with access to multiacting and stealth, it is too much.
> Not to mention that removing it is horribly difficult
>
Multiacting doesn't change anything since it's already a bleed action. Concerning stealth, sure you can play some but then your combat part will become quite thin and you will end up with a stealth bleed deck that would be better with DEM. But I note that the stacking problem rises again.
>
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
> If you can get 3 off with 4 vamps out, that's a bleed for 1, then 2, then 3, then 4.
>
Assuming your prey never blocks or deflects.
And, of course, I've played Fame on the target. Don't want to be bled for four? Take a hit of three pool instead.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
> Also, there's plenty of scope for Madness Network out-of-turn decks. Like the Rotschreck decks of old. If I'm doing this in my grand-prey's minion phase, my grand-predator's minion phase, my predator's minion phase and my turn, is that fun for you?
>
Well, no less fun than being bled with Govern + Conditioning.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
> If the 'correct' defence is then never to have a vampire out against the deck so it jams, that's bad design. Potentially good play by the player, but bad design by the designer - we shouldn't be encouraging people not to play the game.
>
No, correct defense is to block and have some little fight.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Amended version:
Name: Scent the Undead
Cardtype: Action
Discipline: Protean
[pro] Bleed. If the bleed is successful, put this card on a ready vampire controlled by the Methuselah who is bled. Vampires with Protean [pro] may bleed with +1 bleed this vampire's controller as a action. Burn this card if this vampire goes to torpor. A Methuselah may have only one Scent the Undead.
[PRO] Enter combat with a ready vampire controlled by another Methuselah.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> No, correct defense is to block and have some little fight.
>
Little fight/block does not stop Form of Mist. Why do you assume that Bruise/bleed is the best use of this card?
> Non-existant user wrote:
> Little fight/block does not stop Form of Mist. Why do you assume that Bruise/bleed is the best use of this card?
>
Similarly, hurling down Pentex(tm) Subversion would potentially make life less than enjoyable for the target.
Or obfuscate, since intercepting 2/4 stealth is less than trivial if you are not full-on wallish. (and pro procure +2 stealth card to boot, while celerity give the awesomely polyvalent Resist Earth Grasp)
The amended version have only one caveat : no way for the victim to remove the card by itself. Something like "removed if the target successfully hunt" would be good because :
* it's a bit thematic (you hunt to change your odor)
* it's significantly cheaper than Madman quill, while being about as cheap as a minion action can be.
* it interact with hunt modifier event, which I like
* it's different
> Non-existant user wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > No, correct defense is to block and have some little fight.
> >
> Little fight/block does not stop Form of Mist. Why do you assume that Bruise/bleed is the best use of this card?
>
Continuing the action requires PRO, and the lowest crypt with PRO is Chandler + Daliya + Raven which are not heavy bleeder nor crazy multiacting vampires.
> Ohlmann wrote:
> Or obfuscate, since intercepting 2/4 stealth is less than trivial if you are not full-on wallish. (and pro procure +2 stealth card to boot, while celerity give the awesomely polyvalent Resist Earth Grasp)
>
> The amended version have only one caveat : no way for the victim to remove the card by itself. Something like "removed if the target successfully hunt" would be good because :
> * it's a bit thematic (you hunt to change your odor)
> * it's significantly cheaper than Madman quill, while being about as cheap as a minion action can be.
> * it interact with hunt modifier event, which I like
> * it's different
>
It would be a bit too convenient to remove. I'd rather make it a plain +1 stealth action but wouldn't that make it wallpaper? 1 minion has to play the card before other actions so maybe 2 vampires get a +1 bleed?
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > Non-existant user wrote:
> >
> > > Ankha wrote:
> > > No, correct defense is to block and have some little fight.
> > >
> > Little fight/block does not stop Form of Mist. Why do you assume that Bruise/bleed is the best use of this card?
> >
> Continuing the action requires PRO, and the lowest crypt with PRO is Chandler + Daliya + Raven which are not heavy bleeder nor crazy multiacting vampires.
>
But you only need to get the action through with a few vampires and waste their blocking potential that way. It's perfectly possible, for example, to have a couple of midbies and fatties who churn out weenies and have superior Protean, who also take the action and can force it through. Xendil Charmer, for example, or possibly Mugur Sabau. On the Gangrel side, Ingrid Rossler has Fortitude so can multi-act. You can put weenies in the crypt too, of course.
In the stackable version this would be somewhat annoying.
> Ankha wrote:
> It would be a bit too convenient to remove. I'd rather make it a plain +1 stealth action but wouldn't that make it wallpaper? 1 minion has to play the card before other actions so maybe 2 vampires get a +1 bleed?
>
Well, don't forget this is alway a bleed. Which can be more for more than one with the help of other discipline. You pass it, you can use it immediatly to do 1-3 pool damage with the other gangrel, and in his turn its prey must waste an action to hunt. Which can be intercepted, or messed with by Restriected Vitae or other events.
So, in short, a bleed modifer for 1-3 with a 'waste an action'.
In addition, you have the uperior to enter combat in any case. It may not be Deep Song, but it would be playable without afterthought..
> Ankha wrote:
> Amended version:
>
> Name: Scent the Undead
> Cardtype: Action
> Discipline: Protean
> [pro] Bleed. If the bleed is successful, put this card on a ready vampire controlled by the Methuselah who is bled. Vampires with Protean [pro] may bleed with +1 bleed this vampire's controller as a action. Burn this card if this vampire goes to torpor. A Methuselah may have only one Scent the Undead.
> [PRO] Enter combat with a ready vampire controlled by another Methuselah.
>
This version of the card seems very reasonable.
My recommendation is that the card should burn when the vampire hunts. Reason: fresh blood changes the scent of the vampire, throwing off the trail.
You might consider a small restriction on the enter combat action, such as only against an tapped vampire (or reverse it, only untapped vampire!).
My only other concern is that maybe it should cost a blood. I know "Deep Song" does not cost a blood, which is why another card emulating it should not as well. Even still, I feel that dual use cards really make up for the cost with their versatility, especially when it has two strong actions on it to choose from.
Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.
> direwolf wrote:
> You might consider a small restriction on the enter combat action, such as only against an tapped vampire (or reverse it, only untapped vampire!).
>
There's already a restriction: you can't rush allies.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director