Karsh

I have in play merged Karsh, and Fall of the camarilla is in play. 1. Does Karsh retain his 3 votes as Imperator? ( i think yes, as Imerator is not by default a camarilla title, at least is not listed as such in the rulebook : Only Camarilla vampires can hold the Camarilla titles primogen, prince, justicar and Inner Circle member. Additionally, each clan's justicar and Inner Circle titles are unique (see Contested Titles, sec. 4.2) ) 2. Is Karsh still able to play Blood hunt card from hand or ash heap? ( i would say yes, as he plays it AS prince or justicar, though he never is one ) Thanx in advance Gangrel Capacity: 10 Group: 3 Advanced, Camarilla: Karsh may play a Blood Hunt card from your hand or ash heap as a prince. He gets 3 additional votes in blood hunt referendums. He cannot block infernal vampires. [MERGED] Imperator (3 votes): +1 intercept. Fall of the Camarilla, Event, 3 Gehenna cards Gehenna. Do not replace as long as this card is in play. Requires at least three other Gehenna cards in play. There is no Camarilla. Any Camarilla vampire is considered Independent instead.

I copied this from secret library: Imperator Political Action Title. Choose a Camarilla vampire with capacity 8 or more. If this referendum is successful, put this card on the chosen vampire to represent the unique Camarilla title of Imperator (worth 3 votes). This vampire may play a Blood Hunt card from your hand or ash heap as a prince. This vampire gets 3 additional votes in blood hunt referendums. Artist(s): Justin Norman Set(s): Promo-20090401 This would seem to indicate it is a camarilla title.

yes, i know that, but it is on the card. As far as i understand previous rulings, when Karsh merges, he gets only 6 votes in blood hunt referendums, not 9 (which would be implied by the full cardtext of the imperator). That is why i am confused. Is the cardtext of the imperator card relevant to describe the whole imperator title benefit, or not?

It should be in the rulebook that Imperator is a Camarilla title. However, one should not confuse the effects of the Imperator card (quoted above) and the Imperator title (unique, worth 3 votes, and that's all). Similarly, the Prince of Rome doesn't get 1 extra capacity if they are Brujah, even though the Praxis Seizure: Rome does increase the Brujah Prince of Rome's capacity by one.

Wait if non merged Karsh becomes Imperator he gets: by cardtext of Imperator: Choose a Camarilla vampire with capacity 8 or more. If this referendum is successful, put this card on the chosen vampire to represent the unique Camarilla title of Imperator (worth 3 votes). This vampire may play a Blood Hunt card from your hand or ash heap as a prince. This vampire gets 3 additional votes in blood hunt referendums. by text on Karsh ADV: Advanced, Camarilla: Karsh may play a Blood Hunt card from your hand or ash heap as a prince. He gets 3 additional votes in blood hunt referendums. He cannot block infernal vampires. It is 3 votes during referendums and and additional 6 in blood hunts. Or am I wrong? Ignorance is bliss. Cypher, Matrix

you are wrong. Imperator is just a title worth 3 votes. Becoming the Imperator by CARD Imperator gives you additional benefits. If you pascal say that Imperator is by default a Camarilla title, then it is so indeed, and yes, i agree, it should be in the rulebook. How about answer to my second question then?

> 1. Does Karsh retain his 3 votes as Imperator? > No, Imperator is a unique Camarilla title. > 2. Is Karsh still able to play Blood hunt card from hand or ash heap? > Yes, That ability is in no way dependent on the Imperator title, though it associated with it. > That is why i am confused. Is the cardtext of the imperator card relevant to describe the whole imperator title benefit, or not? > This is were you get confused, the only benefit of the Imperator title is that it is worth three votes in all referendums. Everything else is a bonus. > you are wrong. > You are wrong. If Adv. Karsh merged or not becomes the Inperator as a result of the vote card, He would have 6 extra votes in a blood hunt referendum and be able to play Blood Hunt and Veles Hunt from your ash heap per there individual texts.

If Imperator was played on an advanced Karsh, would he then get 9 bvotes in blood hunt referendums? Any deck can win, whether you're using stealth bleed, rush combat, or Soul Gem combos. It doesn't matter if your minions use Auspex, Thaumaturgy, or Melpominee. What matters is the Methuselah uses Presence. That is how deals are made. That is how games are won. No, you misunderstand. I don't want...

Yes, 3 votes for the title of Imperator, 3 votes for his non merged ability, and 3 votes from the bonus given by the Imperator card.

> Pendargon wrote: > How about answer to my second question then? > If Fall the the Camarilla is in play, adv/merged Karsh can play a Blood Hunt card from the ash heap. See [LSJ 20050302] for a similar ruling (Kemintiri trying to play Justicar cards with Fall of the Camarilla in play).

Wedge's reasoning is a little bit confusing... Karsh can play Veles' Hunt??? NC of Hungary ///

> Malachy wrote: > Wedge's reasoning is a little bit confusing... Karsh can play Veles' Hunt??? > No. [LSJ 20100518] [EDIT}: Well, he can, but only from the hand - and not from the ash heap.

Thank you Pascal!

Is there a ruling for those 6/9 votes? EDIT: > Imperator is just a title worth 3 votes. Becoming the Imperator by CARD Imperator gives you additional benefits. > Yes but... If adv Karsh that is not merged becomes Imperator with political action he should get both - benefit from card text of Imperator and his own text. Ignorance is bliss. Cypher, Matrix

> Megabaja wrote: > Yes but... If adv Karsh that is not merged becomes Imperator with political action he should get both - benefit from card text of Imperator and his own text. > Well, I'd better keep the rule that title card go away with the title even if they have additional benefit (otherwise capacity-enhancing praxis would be a pain) even if one corner case is a bit strange.

> Pascal wrote: > > > Malachy wrote: > > Wedge's reasoning is a little bit confusing... Karsh can play Veles' Hunt??? > > > No. [LSJ 20100518] > You mean he cannot play Vele's Hunt from the ash heap, don't you? As a Gangrel, he does not need any special to play it from the hand.

> Non-existant user wrote: > > > Pascal wrote: > > > > > Malachy wrote: > > > Wedge's reasoning is a little bit confusing... Karsh can play Veles' Hunt??? > > > > > No. [LSJ 20100518] > > > You mean he cannot play Vele's Hunt from the ash heap, don't you? As a Gangrel, he does not need any special to play it from the hand. > Ah, good catch. Yes, Karsh's "may play Blood Hunt cards from the ash heap" ability is limited to cards named "Blood Hunt" (and doesn't extend to cards that are of the "blood hunt" type). Thanks