Is this a card that could be playable or even tournament worthy?
Strengtening the chain
+1 stealth action that requires an anarch.
D-action Choose another target anarch. Choose a discipline this acting anarch possess and put this card on the targeted anarch. This card grants the basic level of the discipline chosen.
The card could include an untap clause for either anarchs (or even both)?
I think (imho) that this might make crypt choices for anarch decks easier and perhaps more tournament viable. Sure it could help bloodlines fatten out their crypts and teach other vampires their kewl powerz, but then the creator sacrifice some card spots (or actions) to have his vampires become anarchs. Thoughts and comments appreciated.
> Tomas wrote:
> Is this a card that could be playable or even tournament worthy?
>
> Strengtening the chain
> +1 stealth action that requires an anarch.
> D-action Choose another target anarch. Choose a discipline this acting anarch possess and put this card on the targeted anarch. This card grants the basic level of the discipline chosen.
>
> The card could include an untap clause for either anarchs (or even both)?
>
> I think (imho) that this might make crypt choices for anarch decks easier and perhaps more tournament viable. Sure it could help bloodlines fatten out their crypts and teach other vampires their kewl powerz, but then the creator sacrifice some card spots (or actions) to have his vampires become anarchs. Thoughts and comments appreciated.
>
As the usual trend for anarch card, it have nothing to do with anarch. In this case, it's a sabbat thingy.
> Ohlmann wrote:
>
> > Tomas wrote:
> > Is this a card that could be playable or even tournament worthy?
> >
> > Strengtening the chain
> > +1 stealth action that requires an anarch.
> > D-action Choose another target anarch. Choose a discipline this acting anarch possess and put this card on the targeted anarch. This card grants the basic level of the discipline chosen.
> >
> > The card could include an untap clause for either anarchs (or even both)?
> >
> > I think (imho) that this might make crypt choices for anarch decks easier and perhaps more tournament viable. Sure it could help bloodlines fatten out their crypts and teach other vampires their kewl powerz, but then the creator sacrifice some card spots (or actions) to have his vampires become anarchs. Thoughts and comments appreciated.
> >
> As the usual trend for anarch card, it have nothing to do with anarch. In this case, it's a sabbat thingy.
>
Sanguine Instruction is sabbat only?
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> Sanguine Instruction is sabbat only?
>
Well, Camarilla vampires are not supposed to blood bound people, and aren't supposed to do vaulderie. That's more or less the two way you can do sanguine instruction.
And because of the pack and vaulderies, this kind of instruction is way more developped in sabbat - who often are younger than camarilla and with more diverse disciplines because of that.
Note that gameplay-wise, it can be a good thing that sanguine instruction is not sabbat only.
[quote="Ohlmann" post=29775 As the usual trend for anarch card, it have nothing to do with anarch. In this case, it's a sabbat thingy.[/quote]
I would claim quite the opposite. Anarchs, teaching other anarchs the disciplines they possess to strengthen their bretheren is imo very anarch(y). Mind you this has nothing to do with sharing blood storywise, but learning to control dormant abilities within the vampire with the guidance of another vampire who already possesses these abilities. sanguine instruction is limited by clan, whereas in anarch society clan doesn+t mean alot. It´s your political view which decides in what circles you will associate yourself.
Gamemechanicwise. Just teaching the basic level of a discipline gives the anarchs more ways of playing anarch cards that only uses basic disciplines, of course it opens up the usage of other cards as well, but the card as it is written will never give you access to a superior discipline while flexible in the ability to choose what discipline which anarch teaches another anarch and not at all as constricted as a master discipline card. It doesn+t increase the vampires capacity since his blood potency hasnt increased either, he has learned a new discipline and that is that.
This is absolutely interesting. Some way to make the anarchs teach eachother disciplines would be a nice way to strenghten the anarch concept. I´m not sure exactely how this is best done, but an action with untap-clause seems reasonable.
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
> Tomas wrote:
> Mind you this has nothing to do with sharing blood storywise
>
I stopped here. You can't learn most discipline without it being clan discipline or you drinking lot of blood from somebody who have. You may argue that it may work for (IIRC, I have doubt on and ). But most often it won't. The other ? Not even a chance. Sanguine instruction have sanguine in its name for a reason : it's needed.
Also, Anarch are not that close from each other. I insist, it's sabbat pack who are very close. Unnaturally close thank to vaulderie, to be precise.
I leave the background story to others. Here's how I would write the card:
Name: <Whatever>
Cardtype: Action
Cost: 1 blood
+1 stealth action. Requires an anarch.
Choose a Discipline this vampire has. Put this card on a ready anarch that doesn't have that discipline. The vampire with this card gains one level of the chosen Discipline. Camarilla vampires can't block this action.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Off the top of my head, i think it is a bad idea, as then anarchs could teach other anarchs disciplines like :
etc, etc... and i am not sure how good idea is that
> Pendargon wrote:
> Off the top of my head, i think it is a bad idea, as then anarchs could teach other anarchs disciplines like :
>
> etc, etc... and i am not sure how good idea is that
>
Would it be.... anarchy?
Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.
I still don't see why you would want to play this card. An action and a blood to get an inferior discipline? Really?
Sanguine Instruction is free, can give a superior discipline AND increases the capacity of the receiving vampure. Sanguine Instruction doesn't see play because it's not worth the action and cardslot.
With an untap, *maybe*. But even then it's probably more efficient just to play a better crypt.
> Izaak wrote:
> I still don't see why you would want to play this card. An action and a blood to get an inferior discipline? Really?
>
> Sanguine Instruction is free, can give a superior discipline AND increases the capacity of the receiving vampure. Sanguine Instruction doesn't see play because it's not worth the action and cardslot.
>
> With an untap, *maybe*. But even then it's probably more efficient just to play a better crypt.
>
I guess the problem is that it´s very hard to find a "better crypt". You might get 3-4 vamps that can play 2 effects on a 3-way card, but only 1-2 or those can play all three effects, which I guess would be nice. Or 5 that can play 2 effects and 5 who can play 2 other effects. Hope you get my point - it get´s very unstable and not worth it.
Also, Sanguine Instruction requires both vamps to share clan. That sucks.
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
> Pendargon wrote:
> Off the top of my head, i think it is a bad idea, as then anarchs could teach other anarchs disciplines like :
>
> etc, etc... and i am not sure how good idea is that
>
I would say as I said in my original post that this is mitigated by the amount of time or card slots you need to spare to make both/all vampires anarch in a reliable fashion. All of these disciplines are readily accesible with agent of power as some twd:s has recently shown us and to you need at least one vampire who possess the sought after discipline.
> Ankha wrote:
> I leave the background story to others. Here's how I would write the card:
> Name: <Whatever>
> Cardtype: Action
> Cost: 1 blood
> +1 stealth action. Requires an anarch.
> Choose a Discipline this vampire has. Put this card on a ready anarch that doesn't have that discipline. The vampire with this card gains one level of the chosen Discipline. Camarilla vampires can't block this action.
>
Thank you for the suggestion I would say that this card allows one thing that I at least dont see as desirable and that is to give someone superior of the chosen discipline, or that was my original intent, but a card that helped to use the versatility of the anarch cards. Maybe you feel this would fill another hoel that I am missing or wanting a card with another function?
> Ohlmann wrote:
>
> > Tomas wrote:
> > Mind you this has nothing to do with sharing blood storywise
> >
> I stopped here. You can't learn most discipline without it being clan discipline or you drinking lot of blood from somebody who have. You may argue that it may work for (IIRC, I have doubt on and ). But most often it won't. The other ? Not even a chance. Sanguine instruction have sanguine in its name for a reason : it's needed.
>
> Also, Anarch are not that close from each other. I insist, it's sabbat pack who are very close. Unnaturally close thank to vaulderie, to be precise.
>
It would be nice to see a reference to anything that supports your position that you cannot learn disciplines (no matter if you just choose the exotic ones or all disciplines). Everyone with protean has fed of a gangrel or !gan? Everyone with obtenebration has fed of a lasombra (intresting prospect for a Toreador justicar to explain) just as examples. Penteweret werent just taught by saulot but actually drank his blood?
Yes, this drinking blood to learn disciplines is kind of new to me (apart from what you learn by diablerie). I guess it´s up to the ST, but what I found now in the VTM rules is:
“Characters may also acquire Disciplines other than those commonly taught by their clan, provided they spend the proper freebie or experience points and have access to a vampiric teacher.” - VTM Rev p146
“Thus, learning an entirely new Ability or Discipline requires some tutoring and study, in addition to the required experience-point expenditure. This study can be simple (a night-school course to learn Computer 1) or brutally difficult (months or even years of mind-bending rituals, formulas and blood manipulation to learn the first dot in Thaumaturgy), but it must always be accomplished.” - VTM Rev p141
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
> Ashur wrote:
> Yes, this drinking blood to learn disciplines is kind of new to me (apart from what you learn by diablerie).
>
It's a reasonably common house rule to have some sort of Stuff(tm) going on in this area. It makes some thematic sense that you potentially can learn this way, even if you don't have to. Also, Assamites had that whole blood magic instead of diablerie thing. And Vial of Elder Vitae in V:TES sort of represents the sort of short-term burst that drinking especially potent elder vitae might provide.
Sometimes you see it required for 'clan-specific' disciplines or points in paths. Sometimes you see it for non-clan/non-physical disciplines. Sometimes you get that whole Vicissitude virus thing going on (and sometimes you burn those books, just to make sure).
It's quite nice for Storytellers to have possible downsides - drinking blood takes you a step closer to a blood bond, for example. Also, it can help provide story hooks. As a novice or nervous Storyteller, it can also help you shore up your refusal to grant a player the ability to learn a particular Discipline, which can be pretty useful!
Sanguine Instruction, though it requires same clan, is more powerful because it allows learning up to the superior of discipline. This one as initially made only goes up to basic level discipline.
That and Agent of Power already exists.
Now, I like the concept. Pushing AoP out from the master slots into the minion slots sounds like a good idea. And, as much as hosing Sanguine Instruction may seem to be a concern, SI already wasn't a card that most people worried about (and Trophy: Discipline is almost roundly ignored). So you could go for a more powerful effect.
But if you want to shoot for a balance you can try something that has the short lasting effect of AoP and doesn't allows building up to superior, then you can safely ignores clan requirements and add untaps like Go Anarch. In fact, that still may be weak, so let's see if we can work a little cascading action...
Vitae Party
X blood
+1 stealth action. Requires a ready Anarch vampire.
Choose a Discipline this vampire has and choose X number of Anarch vampires you control. The chosen vampires gain only up to the basic level of the chosen Discipline until the end of your turn. Untap this vampire at the end of the action.
Hey, if someone can show how this'll be the coming of the apocalypse through Summon History and/or Tangle Atropos Hand, cool. But with all the discipline tech we have floating around, we haven't yet exploded. Granted, if everyone got superior Obeah and Renewed Vigor forever, then we'd have a problem. But as of yet we don't have that sort of crises.
Vitae Party made me think a bit of Tremere Convocation, a bit of Brujah Debate. I end up with something like:
Rabble Rousing
Unique Master
Put this card in play and choose a discipline possessed by a ready Anarch you control; tap that Anarch and, during every subsequent master phase, tap a ready Anarch you control who has the chosen discipline. (During your turn - all the time, maybe?), Anarchs you control can play cards that require the chosen discipline as if they had the basic level.
Burn this card if none of your ready Anarchs have the chosen discipline. You may burn this card during your untap phase.
Can be used to pass out some Bloodlines disciplines, but requires tapping a vampire who has it, or can be done temporarily with (e.g.) Agent of Power.
Works differently to most other ways of passing out disciplines, which caters to my personal foible of making different sects/traits work differently.
> Izaak wrote:
> I still don't see why you would want to play this card. An action and a blood to get an inferior discipline? Really?
>
> Sanguine Instruction is free, can give a superior discipline AND increases the capacity of the receiving vampure. Sanguine Instruction doesn't see play because it's not worth the action and cardslot.
>
> With an untap, *maybe*. But even then it's probably more efficient just to play a better crypt.
>
I would say as my OP that it would be for anarchs so you can gear your minions to better utilize the versatility of the anarch cards. As my original design had neither blood cost nor cap increase and should imho have an untap (would say the minion being taught the discipline cause ...well it seems more fun) then I would include it in some anarch decks ´since it would be a free action like abbot and it would (hopefully) permanently increase your boardpresence (like abbot) since you now can display a wider arrange of potential threats from more minions and oputting a few restrictions in it as to not wallpaper other cards (Sanguine instruction) and hopefully gearing it towards designer intent.
> Azel wrote:
> Sanguine Instruction, though it requires same clan, is more powerful because it allows learning up to the superior of discipline. This one as initially made only goes up to basic level discipline.
>
> That and Agent of Power already exists.
>
> Now, I like the concept. Pushing AoP out from the master slots into the minion slots sounds like a good idea. And, as much as hosing Sanguine Instruction may seem to be a concern, SI already wasn't a card that most people worried about (and Trophy: Discipline is almost roundly ignored). So you could go for a more powerful effect.
>
> But if you want to shoot for a balance you can try something that has the short lasting effect of AoP and doesn't allows building up to superior, then you can safely ignores clan requirements and add untaps like Go Anarch. In fact, that still may be weak, so let's see if we can work a little cascading action...
>
> Vitae Party
>
> X blood
> +1 stealth action. Requires a ready Anarch vampire.
> Choose a Discipline this vampire has and choose X number of Anarch vampires you control. The chosen vampires gain only up to the basic level of the chosen Discipline until the end of your turn. Untap this vampire at the end of the action.
>
> Hey, if someone can show how this'll be the coming of the apocalypse through Summon History and/or Tangle Atropos Hand, cool. But with all the discipline tech we have floating around, we haven't yet exploded. Granted, if everyone got superior Obeah and Renewed Vigor forever, then we'd have a problem. But as of yet we don't have that sort of crises.
>
Hmm, I would say that IF you play a clan based deck SI is more powerful, but if you play an anarch deck this is the card I would choose. And that is exactly the intent of the card.
The comparison with agent of power is of course something that should be made. With agent of power you can choose any discipline for any vampire (alot stronger) it doesnt take an action, but is a master card and those slots are valuable and you have it for one turn instead of for the rest of the game (weaker). Just like a card should be imo: Stronger in some areas and weaker in some others so you have to choose depending on what kind of deck you want to build, not just "I include this card because it´s better in all situations which is a no-brainer. In my original post the card was capped for basic level and as far as the temporis thing I would say it´s done adn with either of these cards my OP or your suggestion. You would need a vampire with temporis or an AoP and then pray noone blocks your action when you try to teach others that super kewl discipline and getting that right balance wise for deck building purposes.
What I don´t personally like with your card is the blood cost. I think it would be needed if the card constructed would look like yours, but teaching disciplines among anarchs has nothing to do with sharing blood. Giving disciplines to multiple minions though is something that needs a cost. Then I would say the anarchs per se needs alot more permanent boosters, not saomething that goes away after a turn, but these are my highly personal opinions.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
> Vitae Party made me think a bit of Tremere Convocation, a bit of Brujah Debate. I end up with something like:
>
> Rabble Rousing
> Unique Master
> Put this card in play and choose a discipline possessed by a ready Anarch you control; tap that Anarch and, during every subsequent master phase, tap a ready Anarch you control who has the chosen discipline. (During your turn - all the time, maybe?), Anarchs you control can play cards that require the chosen discipline as if they had the basic level.
> Burn this card if none of your ready Anarchs have the chosen discipline. You may burn this card during your untap phase.
>
> Can be used to pass out some Bloodlines disciplines, but requires tapping a vampire who has it, or can be done temporarily with (e.g.) Agent of Power.
>
> Works differently to most other ways of passing out disciplines, which caters to my personal foible of making different sects/traits work differently.
>
Why make it unique?
you would need to have 5+ minions in play to have the upside outweigh the downside imo, you could play it with CrimetInc tha/qui, but i would still say there would be less decks that could use this card to it´s advantage, where as my first card (imho) could be an autoinclude ala abbot in any anarch deck with mid cap-low cap vampires and since mid caps are atm imo the worst segment of vampires to play now, cards should be geared towards boosting them especially.
Whats the thought about tapping one vampire to make others remeber something he/she taught them. I kind like the mechanic, but think it could be more thematically correct used for another sect.