(This list not meant to be all-encompassing.)
Please list your reasoning below. I'm curious as to what everyone's thoughts might be.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
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I voted taste of vitae, although disarm would be my next choice. Not because of them being "broken" (I simply don't like them, I never have, but that's another story), but because of lack of consistency. Suddenly they have no vitae (although theft of vitae works just fine) or no hands to rip off. This is just plainly stupid.
On the side note, ally decks are a pain for combat decks purely because of taste of vitae not working. I've played around with orgy of blood, but it's very situational and - more often than not - a dead card slot.
I would say "all of thoses cited".
Notice that all choice except one are combat card. Notice that combat already have polyvalency problesm. Notice that allies are also "immune" to aggravated damage. Notice that the two combat style that work well are near unaffected by the difference between allies and vampires.
Gaining a blood advantage is necessary in a lot of combat decks - it can fuel bloat via masters and sometimes keep a vampire out of torpor for one more turn. Many decks use taste of vitae to get that advantage. But it adds complexity and uncertainty to those decks that need it, partly because it typically takes up a lot more deck space than the other options. The one card that would benefit other decks the most in terms of blood and card flow is Taste of Vitae, and that is my choice.
I votedd Taste of Vitae, though I've long argued that Decapitate and Disarm should work on mortal allies. Also, there should be a way to burn the Imbued or other allies outright, like vampires. But its probably not gonna happen......
> Non-existant user wrote:
> Also, there should be a way to burn the Imbued or other allies outright, like vampires.
>
Well, Autonomic mastery for example kill an imbued outright. They are immune to a lot of classic combat card, but are very weak against some usually weak card.
For me, it's a three way tie between Haven Uncovered, Fame and Taste of Vitae. Those are stock cards in many combat decks across many disciplines, so it's more ruinous to the game to have those cards busted rather than particular discipline cards.
If really forced to choose from those 3, I think I'd choose Fame (obviously fixed so that "incapacitated" replaces "torpor" when played on Imbued). Give the combat deck _some_ form of ousting strategy rather than just bleed for 1.
For Obedience, Haven and Taste, there is no reason to make a difference between Imbued and other allies (of course, one can wonder if Taste should work on allies ).
I vote Fame to balance how easy it is to get an incapacitated Imbued back. Fame Jennie, watch another Imbued end her suffering, and now you can deal with the rest of them
Clearly Taste of Vitae. Theft works, even on non-mortal allies. There's no thematic or mechanical reason why Taste shouldn't too.
Since Taste is the gas on which most combat engines run, allowing it to work on allies removes one of the many roadblocks combat decks face.
Runner up votes for Disarm & Decap - surely allies have arms and heads to be ripped off.
I went for Taste because it can go in more decks than can Disarm or Decapitate. Fame would be my second choice, for the same reason. All four would be fine with me if it weren't for the fact that the change would require errata/special rulings. ..BUT, if we were all fine with such rulings, then I wouldn't mind seeing Strike:go to torpor effects optionally work as Strike:burn opposing mortal as well. Just saying.
-Killiam
(Bill Troxel) "I look back from where I'm from
Look at the woman I've become
And the strangest things seem
Suddenly routine"
-Hedwig Robinson
Decapitate.
Surely, an imbued can't be incapaciated w/o head. So he should be burned by logic.
Disagree with Taste of Vitae. Theft of Vitae is thaumaturgy magic. Taste of Vitae (according to card art) is simply licking the blood from fire extinguisher. And a vampire blood is more potent then a blood of mortals.
> Ohlmann wrote:
>
> > Non-existant user wrote:
> > Well, Autonomic mastery for example kill an imbued outright. They are immune to a lot of classic combat card, but are very weak against some usually weak card.
> >
> That card really sucks. Design fail if I ever seen one.
>
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
Thematically there is a good reason why Taste of Vitae doesn't work on allies: vampire vitae is more potent than mortal blood. In the RPG 13th generation vampire holds 10 pints of vitae that are 10 blood points (roughly same concentration as human blood), while a 7th generation vampire holds 10 pints of vitae that are 20 blood points (roughly twice as concentrated). Also some elder vampires can not be nourished by mere blood, but need vitae to sustain themselves.
As for Obediece, Decapitate and Disarm... Thematically there is no reason why these shouldn't work for imbued (as well as other allies) equally as well as with vampires. I voted for Disarm, because that would be probably the most beneficial.
Jussi Hattara
Webmaster Extraordinaire
Finnish Politics!
To be honest, I can't pick one...
I don't think Fame should really be in the mix, but I would love to have ALL of the others able to affect Allies.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> jAvel wrote:
> Disagree with Taste of Vitae. Theft of Vitae is thaumaturgy magic. Taste of Vitae (according to card art) is simply licking the blood from fire extinguisher. And a vampire blood is more potent then a blood of mortals.
>
Well, a regular human is worth at lest 2 blood counter, usually there is enough blood to full. So, it's not that far fetched.
Too many to choose.
But then again, this kinda works the other way around too, eh?
Shouldn't Imbued/Allies be able to operate during dawn/daylight hours akin to Daring the Dawn/Day Operation/Dawn Operation?
It is a nasty can of worms and even if both make sense I think I'd better leave both ends of that can unopened.
Finnish Politics!
I vote "Taste of Vitae" for the reasons stated by Dorrinal.
Decapitate should be a candidate. Why shouldn't you be able to burn the imbued before the ambulance hauls them off to the hospital?
Disarm should not be applicable to Imbued. You remove a vampire's arm, and they can heal the wound. Remove a mortal's arm and they die a horrible death. Even if they were to survive a Disarm, a mortal cannot regrow their arms, and would be permanently "incapacitated."
Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.
> Non-existant user wrote:
>
> > Pascal wrote:
> > Deep Song.
> >
> Which one is the most broken: Deep Song or the Imbued?
>
If Deep Song did affect Imbueds, the answer would be obvious
i voted disarm. taste of vitae is your vamp tasting the opponents vitae (vamp blood, supernatural "juice" that fuels their power) so imbued, while supernatural, are about as high in vitae content as a turnip is.
imbued have arms and heads that should be able to get ripped off. i voted disarm because i think its better than decapitate (i at least pay it and see it played more, i just wish it gave you a melee weapon for later use (you know, so you could rip someones arm off and beat people with it...)
anyway, jake washington is an imbued in a wheel chair, and i'm told that fluff wise he eventually recovers and is a-ok.
so, an imbued should be able to get their arm ripped off and live, but since they have life not blood, they shouldn't be able to regrow the arm. i mean, they aren't lizards regrowing tails afterall, they aren't as regeneratively awesome as vamps or werwolves.
but there is not a drop of canon or design related evidence that imbued shouldn't be able to get decapitated or disarmed.
taste is out, for fluff reasons. obedience should effect them, but lets assume that the hunter net protects them from such a lazy use of dominate. other things could be arguably vamp oriented, but the only reason disarm and decapitate can't hit imbued is they were printed before imbued existed.
and i agree that allies or a ghoul, mortal, werewolf, mage, zombie, mummy, and even animal persuasion should be able to do things as dawn ops, so if a vamp wants to block, they can deal with sunlight.
I voted for Obedience. All the Dominate cards that don't affect allies should affect them: Seduction, Redirection, Mind Rape, and others (?).
Of course, I think that Dominate cards (including Deflection) should never be usable on older vampires, that's how crazy, messed-up addicted I am to the source material (and it would incidentally be a nice way to nerf Dominate a bit).
I don't understand why Graverobbing is on the poll, however. Allies don't go to torpor. Does the poll imply that Graverobbing would affect allies in the ash heap?
BTW, Jake Washington's legs were healed by another Imbued using the level 4 Vision power "Restore". Self-healing is not a power inherent to all Imbued.
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> i voted disarm. taste of vitae is your vamp tasting the opponents vitae (vamp blood, supernatural "juice" that fuels their power) so imbued, while supernatural, are about as high in vitae content as a turnip is.
>
Imbued are human. The exact same thing used by vampires to hunt - and a normal human usually fulfill a vampire next to full.
Disarm and Taste. If I can tear off Arika's arm, why not Travis? It should burn the ally since they can't go to torpor.
Again, taste has to do with stealing blood or something close to it. Allies should have blood (why else call them "juicebags?").
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
-Friedrich Nietzsche
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Thematically, I'd like quite a few to work. (Especially Disarm) But from a game mechanic / balance point of view, I'd say Taste of Vitae not working is the 'most important' if I had to pick one. Some combat engines literally rely on it to function, and it makes the Imbued effectively counter them entirely for zero effort from the Imbued player.
Here we go again....
Dave Knowles (Advanced)
Sabbat Bishop of Manchester
I'd say : none of them.
But before answering, I'd like to know if the vampires themselves are aware of imbued existence ? Until now I guesses that most of them don't see anything surnatural when a human comes and intercept/defies them. They just see a foolish human and if something a bit surnatural happens, they simply think some other forces are at work, or maybe the human was just lucky... They dont' think about powers or virtues, because it's a bit out of their reach. Mehuselahs (players) do, but not their minions...
After a combat I'd understand a vampire who takes time to decapitate another vampire to make sure he never stands in his way again, but after dispatching a puny human who seems dead cold, why the need to stop and tear him apart ? After all, there's nothing to fear from an unlucky mortal bystander.
So Disarm and decapitate should not work on them simply because a vampire would not bother : what is dead is dead.
Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
I agree, none of the above. If you are playing combat, you are already probably tearing up imbued. If you are playing light stealth on the other hand, you are screwed. I'd like Seduction, Mind Numb and, if I had to pick one from the list, Obedience, to affect the imbued. Not that they wouldn't just "React with Conviction" and cancel Mind Numb, but at least that's one less conviction for them. And then I'd want Diamond Thunderbolt to affect all allies. I'm so tired of getting allies stolen when I don't have a DI or crazy intercept.
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
-Friedrich Nietzsche
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