State of the V:EKN - May 1

www.vekn.net/index.php/vampire-elder-kindred-network/213-state-of-the-vekn-may-1 Fellow Methuselahs, Let me apologize for being late on this State of the V:EKN. It was due 01. April but I couldn´t get it done until today. Nevertheless this gives the opportunity to fully cover the recent events. As most of you know in the fall of last year there has been a decision by the V:EKN to produce a fan made set. A design team with a handful of people was assembled and they set off to build that set. Unfortunately at the end of December, right around the start of R1 of playtesting, a conflict broke out in the team. My goal was to solve this conflict and to bring all the parties involved back together again. From all my experience in dealing with V:TES and the V:EKN, and I never thought this wouldn´t be possible or even it would be a hard task. Turns out it was. The differences couldn´t be reconciled and first one guy split from the team and then two others followed, you may have seen the topics in the forum. This was a really sad experience for me as a Chairman and a hard time. I did not want this to happen but in trying to solve that conflict I realized an important problem: there are people who see the ability to make decisions as a right they have earned and that volunteering results in entitlement. From where I stand this is fundamentally wrong. The ability to make decisions is a responsibility, not a right, and there is no reward for volunteering except the happy faces and respect of your fellow players. I quote Robyn Tatu: "It’s really simple. Volunteers simply go to work. If they’re not happy with their current assignment they quit or find other areas where they can contribute". The good news is this only slightly impacted the development process and we are still on track for Round 3 of playtesting. Ben Peal will speak to more details in an upcoming Designers' Diary. During the public discussions about the design team I read from several people that they think the Inner Circle is too secretive and only staffed with a close connected group of people. To be honest, when building the new V:EKN after White Wolf dropped V:TES we didn´t build an Inner Circle. We just named important positions and put them in there. Also since we have been getting along just fine in the V:EKN days, the Inner Circle´s ability to make decisions was not that important before. So what we did is to think long and hard about the structure and members of the Inner Circle and here are the changes to come: - The Storyline Coordinator position will be moved from the Inner Circle to the Design Team. All later tournament legal reward cards have to follow the standard design process. - There will be a new group within the Inner Circle: Chairmen Emeriti. This is for formerly dedicated members of the V:EKN who currently can´t devote much of their time to the V:EKN. This is a non-voting position, senior advisors. - In addition to the V:EKN Marketing Director there will be a V:EKN Spokesperson. The Marketing Director will handle external communication and actively market V:TES to the outside and the Spokesperson will proactively interface with the player base, the princes and the national coordinators. - V:EKN Scribe. Accurately recollecting the decisions made by the Inner Circle and archiving them, maintaining and monitoring a calendar of important dates for the VEKN, keeping the records of the association in a safe place. - Vice Chairman. Well, Vice-President. You get it. So far for the structure. Let me talk about persons, we have a few changes coming here as well. - Eric Chiang will be leaving us as storyline coordinator after running the event at the NAC. We thank him for his service. There are two promising candidates and we will give you a new name soon. - David Tatu will be taking over the V:EKN Scribe position. - Robert Goudie will be the first Chairman Emeritus. The positions of: Vice Chairman, Spokesperson and Marketing Director are currently open. If you are interested in a more active position in the V:EKN or want to lift that veil of secrecy (*grin*) now is the time. I sincerely hope that this step shows that there has never been any desire for secrecy on the Inner Circle´s part and that we have an open mind about anybody wanting to participate. A recent change to the website was the introduction of a V:TES video channel, a link (www.vekn.net/index.php/cause-and-effect) to the well known Cause & Effect. I think this is a great series and a prime display of volunteering at work. Thank you guys for letting us use your content. Again, this goes out to every player: if you want to contribute to the V:EKN, I am sure there is a place for you. As I mentioned in the Cause & Effect interview, there's about a 20% chance of the game coming back into print. We've had dialog with various companies with respect to this. At this time, there is nothing tangible to report. However, dialog with those companies continues, and we'll be sure to let you know if there are any developments. Johannes Walch Chairman of the V:EKN V:EKN Website Coordinator

All of this is surprising news to me. I’m only hearing about all of it now (including me “leaving”). While some form of restructuring is not surprising, it is disappointing that I am only learning about all this today. Have the National Coordinators already approved this new structure? Were the NC’s consulted and allowed the opportunity to provide input? The one thing I can agree with is that a position on the Inner Circle is a serious responsibility, not a right or an entitlement. I hope all future Inner Circles (and other official VEKN positions) strongly emphasize this, and that individuals are selected based on what they are doing now and will do in their positions, rather than resting on their laurels and relying on past contributions (which are appreciated but should not result in an entitlement). Since I’m just reading about this now, I’ll need some time to digest the latest news. I will reply in more depth after I’ve had the chance to think it over. With regards, Eric Chiang Inner Circle: Storyline Coordinator pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

Can you please say more about what the responsibilities of the various VEKN positions are (both the open ones and the ones that have been filled)? Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

That is part of what I am going to work on: Job descriptions, a code of ethics, standards and such. Of course the skills, personality and desires of the individuals will have a strong influence on the job descriptions so there will be some fluidity based on who is in the positions. My first task will be to work on documenting what the current IC members do. I have a few of the description nearly ready. I hope to have the Marketing Director done first since that is a very important position with a number of pressing needs to attend to over the next few weeks/months. The Vice Chair will be very much based on the interest of the volunteer that wants the position (besides the basic, fill in for the Chairman as needed type stuff.) The spokes person will help to better facilitate communication between the community, the NC/Princes and the IC. There is a strong need for a person that is available to answer questions and gather opinions and to help engage more players with their player's organization. People should feel included and that there voices can be heard no matter how long they have been involved or how much they post. If anyone has specific questions or a strong interest in becoming more involved as a volunteer, either regarding the IC or any other project, I am happy to try to answer here on via PM. Thanks, David Tatu V:EKN Scribe

> Damnans wrote: > - The Storyline Coordinator position will be moved from the Inner Circle to the Design Team. All later tournament legal reward cards have to follow the standard design process. > So this is how you remove Eric Chiang from the IC? And you don´t tell him this before posting this public message? "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > > > Damnans wrote: > > - The Storyline Coordinator position will be moved from the Inner Circle to the Design Team. All later tournament legal reward cards have to follow the standard design process. > > > So this is how you remove Eric Chiang from the IC? And you don´t tell him this before posting this public message? > He received an email today in advance. Several hours before posting this. Also we are not removing Eric from the IC, we move the storyline position into the design team. He quit the design team on his own free will so this step is only logical.

> Ashur wrote: > > > Damnans wrote: > > - The Storyline Coordinator position will be moved from the Inner Circle to the Design Team. All later tournament legal reward cards have to follow the standard design process. > > > So this is how you remove Eric Chiang from the IC? And you don´t tell him this before posting this public message? > Ya know, I'm not really a supporter of the VEKN or the new set in any way, but if you openly take a stance against the VEKN and go your own way it isn't entirely unexpected to be removed from the VEKN IC, now is it? Johannes, thanks for the update.

> Izaak wrote: > if you openly take a stance against the VEKN and go your own way it isn't entirely unexpected to be removed from the VEKN IC, now is it? > I wasn´t sure about to what extent Eric Chiang has "taken a stance against the VEKN", although I must admit I guess he had. Now it´s more like he´s fired from the position. Which may very well be appropriate. But thanks for the reply Johannes. It´s good to make things crystal clear, instead of accusations and rumours flying around. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> johannes wrote: > > > Ashur wrote: > > > > > Damnans wrote: > > > - The Storyline Coordinator position will be moved from the Inner Circle to the Design Team. All later tournament legal reward cards have to follow the standard design process. > > > > > So this is how you remove Eric Chiang from the IC? And you don´t tell him this before posting this public message? > > > He received an email today in advance. Several hours before posting this. Also we are not removing Eric from the IC, we move the storyline position into the design team. He quit the design team on his own free will so this step is only logical. > There was an e-mail that was sent earlier today (which mentioned the moving of the Storyline position and that I was being removed from it, though none of the details about the larger restructuring). I, however, did not receive and read that e-mail until after I saw Johannes' State of the V:EKN. So I first learned about my "leaving" from reading it publicly on the forum. I am disappointed that the Inner Circle was not professional enough to take sufficient precautions. Similarly, if you send an e-mail several hours before you Tweet or Facebook Status Update, there's a high chance that the news will break before the e-mail is even read. Please don't mince words - you *are* removing me from the Inner Circle through these actions. I resigned from the Design Team well before these new changes. And as has been repeatedly stated (until now apparently), Design Team and Storyline are completely separate areas of responsibility. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> johannes wrote: > He received an email today in advance. Several hours before posting this. Also we are not removing Eric from the IC, we move the storyline position into the design team. He quit the design team on his own free will so this step is only logical. > I must admit that I only see two logical explanation : you don't re-read yourself and are extremely clumsy, or you truly hate Echiang. I suppose he must kick puppies and send you the video in his spare time, or something like that.

> Design Team and Storyline are completely separate areas of responsibility. > Lilith's Blessing disagrees.

> Izaak wrote: > > > Design Team and Storyline are completely separate areas of responsibility. > > > Lilith's Blessing disagrees. > I agree that Lilith's Blessing is a problematic card, especially with Villein. As has previously been pointed out, Lilith's Blessing did undergo 3 full rounds of playtesting with the Heirs to the Blood cards. Unfortunately, AFAIK, it was never playtested in its final form (i.e. the final version differs from the version in the last round of playtest). This was all before I was appointed Storyline Coordinator. As others have noted, a similar situation occurred with Villein, which was never playtested as a Trifle. So the issues with Lilith's Blessing stem from the development process not from the mere fact that it was storyline related. (I do think that LSJ did a phenomenal job while he was in charge, but since he's only human, I do think he was fallible, and IMHO Villein and Lilith's Blessing are examples of some of his mistakes). pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

*sigh* Why am I not surprised about how this is proceeding...? VTES is a game, not a way of life. That is all.

> Izaak wrote: > Ya know, I'm not really a supporter of the VEKN or the new set in any way, but if you openly take a stance against the VEKN and go your own way it isn't entirely unexpected to be removed from the VEKN IC, now is it? > In my opinion, I have not openly taken a stance against the VEKN at all. I do disagree with an official VEKN position (process issues regarding the new set) and have taken an unpopular course of action but that hardly makes me “anti-VEKN,” which many people seem to have concluded. I think it is quite common for a person to support an institution even if they strongly disagree with some official positions. Lots of Americans are devoted to their country yet strongly oppose national decisions like the Iraq War or the embargo against Cuba. I imagine there are many people in countries like China who are patriotic yet strongly disapprove of the human rights violations commonly committed by their country. There are plenty of Catholics who support their religion, even if they disagree on the official church position on papal infallibility, abortion, and homosexuality. In the U.S., abortion is legal. Yet there are plenty of pro-life judges. Some will look for loopholes and exceptions to gradually chip away at Roe v Wade (the case law which legalized abortion). Others may occasionally even blatantly rule against established case law, with the knowledge that a Court of Appeals will almost certainly overturn the ruling. There are plenty of state/federal disagreements where state governments support positions firmly opposed by the federal government (legalization of marijuana, homosexual marriage, immigration). Doing so doesn’t mean that you are “enemies” of the federal government. They just have different interpretations on the best way to serve their respective constituencies. And those are all mostly oppositional, for-or-against issues. I do not see why the “official VEKN set” and the “Carl/Jeff/Eric” set have to be mutually exclusive. I don’t see why they can’t both be successful. As we have explicitly stated, when we are done with our set we will submit it to the VEKN and it would be nice if they accepted our cards and sanctioned their use. I have never told anyone that they shouldn’t be involved in the official VEKN set. I have never suggested that people help with the “Carl/Jeff/Eric” set *instead of* with the official VEKN set. Most VTES players are adults and can make their own decisions. And if they decide to help with both sets then that’s fantastic! It’s quite common for people to be involved in multiple charities. Maybe I’m wrong, but I think it’s rare for people to be criticized for starting a charitable initiative – especially if it’s going towards a good cause. Carl, Jeff, and I are putting forth our efforts to better the game and the community. I am saddened that some people think we are “opposed to VEKN” because I do not see it that way at all. With regards, Eric Chiang Inner Circle: Storyline Coordinator pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> echiang wrote: > I do not see why the “official VEKN set” and the “Carl/Jeff/Eric” set have to be mutually exclusive. I don’t see why they can’t both be successful. As we have explicitly stated, when we are done with our set we will submit it to the VEKN and it would be nice if they accepted our cards and sanctioned their use. > Would you be willing to have the Official VEKN Design Team adjust the set you are planning? To change wordings or remove cards? It would be extremely silly to have to different (competing?) design philosophies -a clear road to disaster if I've ever saw one. Finnish Politics!

> echiang wrote: > In my opinion, I have not openly taken a stance against the VEKN at all. > This clearly indicates you have lost your compass, because you openly took a stance against the V:EKN when you fully endorsed Carl's resignation letter, a relevant fragment of which is quoted below: > The cards we have designed are not to be used by the V:EKN Design Team. Since the creative content for Round 1 originated from our work (including Jeff Kuta’s), and had no significant contributions from the remaining Design Team members, we insist that the Design Team refrains from further playtest of such cards and from including them in the upcoming set without our explicit permission. This creative content includes all of the cards from Round 1, with one exception, and any other ideas that we initiated and explored. > V:EKN Website Coordinator

So because he disagree with one part of what do VEKN, he disagree with everything and should be fired on the spot. Or does the bad attitude of Echiang on one file shared with other aspect of what do VEKN ?

> Ohlmann wrote: > So because he disagree with one part of what do VEKN, he disagree with everything and should be fired on the spot. Or does the bad attitude of Echiang on one file shared with other aspect of what do VEKN ? > Disagreement was not the reason. For instance, prohibiting the V:EKN from using cards created by the V:EKN is taking a stance against the V:EKN. V:EKN Website Coordinator

> Damnans wrote: > > > echiang wrote: > > In my opinion, I have not openly taken a stance against the VEKN at all. > > > This clearly indicates you have lost your compass, because you openly took a stance against the V:EKN when you fully endorsed Carl's resignation letter, a relevant fragment of which is quoted below: > > > The cards we have designed are not to be used by the V:EKN Design Team. Since the creative content for Round 1 originated from our work (including Jeff Kuta’s), and had no significant contributions from the remaining Design Team members, we insist that the Design Team refrains from further playtest of such cards and from including them in the upcoming set without our explicit permission. This creative content includes all of the cards from Round 1, with one exception, and any other ideas that we initiated and explored. > > So you say that disagreeing with an individual member of an organization (for whatever reasons) means being against said organization. Please correct me if I'm wrong. pckvtes.wordpress.com

> Amenophobis wrote: > So you say that disagreeing with an individual member of an organization (for whatever reasons) means being against said organization. Please correct me if I'm wrong. > Please, read my previous post for clarification: vekn.net/index.php/forum/10-news-and-announcements/29272-re-state-of-the-vekn-may-1/post?do=quote#29271 V:EKN Website Coordinator

> I quote Robyn Tatu: "It’s really simple. Volunteers simply go to work. If they’re not happy with their current assignment they quit or find other areas where they can contribute." > If this represents the sum total of wisdom from the management team in the face of losing more than half of the core creative team, it is an utter leadership failure and refusal to acknowledge, let alone recognize, the root problems. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Amenophobis wrote: > So you say that disagreeing with an individual member of an organization (for whatever reasons) means being against said organization. Please correct me if I'm wrong. > "Since the creative content for Round 1 originated from our work (including Jeff Kuta’s), and had no significant contributions from the remaining Design Team members, we insist that the Design Team refrains from further playtest of such cards and from including them in the upcoming set without our explicit permission." How can this be construed by the VEKN as anything other than being "against" the VEKN? Eric/Carl/Jeff *couldn't* have been under the impression that, as Design Team members for the VEKN's new set, "their" material was somehow proprietary, as they have all play tested in the past. So, by claiming it as proprietary and insisting that the VEKN Design Team not use "their" material, they elicited a response which was likely appropriate. Whether or not all the persons involved on both sides acted kindly or viciously in private, we will never know, but to me, almost none of what has been said by either side in public rises to the level of being unkind. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> echiang wrote: > Have the National Coordinators already approved this new structure? > > Were the NC’s consulted and allowed the opportunity to provide input? > So far there has been no answer to these two simple questions by any members of the IC. I think these valid questions deserve to be answered. pckvtes.wordpress.com

Everything is done without any permission/talking/whatever. For example I'm reading everything very carefully but it is obvious for me that some Vekn members (and IC members) want to do everything alone... Do everything has to be done without NC? or there are some NC's who knows everything and some who just red about it here... My beloved friends from Poland (vtes players ofc ) have many doubt about some situations in Vekn but we chose not to say anything because it's clearly for us that no one will hear us...but its "normal" when minority deals with majority...sad but true. Regards Szewski p.s. the most important in Vekn are PLAYERS! please, do not forget about this. Without them everything is nothing.

I'm just curious, because normally the quietest groups of people tend to have the most non-linear (and sometimes, most thought-out) views, what is the opinion of your area? I'm just sitting back hoping wounds can heal (maybe by the time the NAC gets here ?) and that our IC pulls off a miraculous set. i have alot of respect for the IC, the current design team, and for the members of the design team that have stepped down. It's unfortunate that differences were had and unresolved, but all of these individuals are good people, and have alot of love for the game. I don't see any gain for us as a community to argue at our keyboards over what has happened. I'm sad to see the design team issues become what they did, and i'm not entirely sure what to make of all of the state of the vekn statement yet, but it looks like they're addressing several problems and concerns that we've been voicing. i understand the turmoil is on everyones mind, but is noone going to be optimistic that at least companies are discussing buying the game?

> Amenophobis wrote: > > > echiang wrote: > > Have the National Coordinators already approved this new structure? > > > > Were the NC’s consulted and allowed the opportunity to provide input? > > > So far there has been no answer to these two simple questions by any members of the IC. I think these valid questions deserve to be answered. > As far as I understand the role of a National Coordinator, they/we don't need to be consulted in such matters. Personally I don't care much about being consulted in this case, mostly because I don't have much to add to the decision that needs to be taken (if any). No matter how much time, money and effort we spend on V:tES, in the end it is still just a game. A game that needs to be played. The fact that busloads of volunteers spend time to make this game better, and to organise play for other people is greatly appreciated by players around the world. The fact that those volunteers do not always agree on certain things is understood by those very same players. The fact that the disagreeing volunteers start arguing over the interent: I'm pretty sure that after more than 20 years of internet, we have all seen worse... At this moment I have the impression that things are not leading to a better vtes but to a verdict about who is right or wrong. I will conclude with the words I told my predator/prey in a tournament game from last week: "Let's play this game, we can be friends after that". Best Regards, Dennis NC for Belgium www.facebook.com/groups/vtes.belgium/

My point of view is: When everything lies with democracy, why in such important things we can't vote? Maybe the IC members should??? or the NC??? Ok, some of the NC's doesn't care about this situation or anything at all. But some do. So maybe its time to do something together? or it's just a simply though of an impossible idea??? regards Szewski p.s. I'm feeling like I was said to much now I will remain silent...

> Amenophobis wrote: > > > echiang wrote: > > Have the National Coordinators already approved this new structure? > > Were the NC’s consulted and allowed the opportunity to provide input? > > > So far there has been no answer to these two simple questions by any members of the IC. I think these valid questions deserve to be answered. > No. No.

> Szewski wrote: > When everything lies with democracy, why in such important things we can't vote? > Maybe the IC members should??? or the NC??? > The IC did vote on this. Actually the IC votes on all the decisions, I very rarely take decisions alone. > Szewski wrote: > Ok, some of the NC's doesn't care about this situation or anything at all. But some do. So maybe its time to do something together? > or it's just a simply though of an impossible idea??? > No, absolutely not impossible. I suggest you apply for one of the 3 open IC positions. As you said, some NCs "only" care about their country, fine. For those who want to be involved further this is the way to go and this is why we opted for this extension of the IC. Some of the National Coordinators have a double function in the IC (i.e Gines/Damnans). Also I have noted as a first thing for the new Spokesperson IC that he should always inform NCs a couple of days in advance about announcements and collect feedback. > Szewski wrote: > p.s. I'm feeling like I was said to much now I will remain silent... > Please don´t. Your questions were valid and polite. I will always try to address those kind of questions.

> johannes wrote: > No, absolutely not impossible. I suggest you apply for one of the 3 open IC positions. As you said, some NCs "only" care about their country, fine. For those who want to be involved further this is the way to go and this is why we opted for this extension of the IC. Some of the National Coordinators have a double function in the IC (i.e Gines/Damnans). > Just to clarify, being a NC is NOT a requirement for applying for one of the IC positions. Anyone is welcome. If you are afraid of a long-term commitment, this is not for life. If you feel you are not able to fullfill the position at some point in the future you can always opt for Chairman Emeritus and the position will be open for application again.

> johannes wrote: > > > Amenophobis wrote: > > > > > echiang wrote: > > > Have the National Coordinators already approved this new structure? > > > Were the NC’s consulted and allowed the opportunity to provide input? > > > > > So far there has been no answer to these two simple questions by any members of the IC. I think these valid questions deserve to be answered. > > > No. > No. > If the Inner Circle is elected by the National Coordinators, then only the National Coordinators should have the authority to change the Inner Circle. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Jeff wrote: > If the Inner Circle is elected by the National Coordinators, then only the National Coordinators should have the authority to change the Inner Circle. > Where does it say that? Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > > > Jeff wrote: > > If the Inner Circle is elected by the National Coordinators, then only the National Coordinators should have the authority to change the Inner Circle. > > > Where does it say that? > Correct. Te NCs don´t elect the IC. The IC was appointed by the chairman. The Chairman was elected by unanimous vote during the second last full NC meeting (well, as many as could be gathered) in Paris. If the Chairman sees the need to gather opinions on who to appoint he gathers them as he sees fit. If you need further information about role and responsibility of NCs I suggest to read this: www.vekn.net/index.php/vampire-elder-kindred-network/what-is-a-national-coordinator

> johannes wrote: > Correct. Te NCs don´t elect the IC. The IC was appointed by the chairman. > Also, quoting from the other thread: > Brum wrote: > I don't agree that you used up all other means of communication and had no choice but to go public. You didn't contact the people that are directly under the IC. > > No, us National Coordinators are not special in any way, except we vote for the IC Candidates, we are the people most in contact with them, we counsel them in many situations and don't have any problems in asking them for some accountability (in the volunteer context that we all are), if need be. > > jhattara wrote: > I think VEKN could be described as a multi-tiered representative democracy. Players to Princes. Princes to National Coordinators. National Coordinators to Inner Circle. > > Brum wrote: > I voted there. You did too. > In fact, guys like us were there exactly so our countries were represented and had a voice. > > For every new IC member we were asked to give our opinion on the candidates. > Yes, we all said ok to Pascal. > We all said ok to Robert. > Unanimous vote is still a vote. > > Jesper wrote: > This just proves my point where we have this system, where the ones "electing" each other are the persons selected by the same persons. > So, what's really going on here? It seems to me like there are conflicting accounts of who voted for whom. Johannes claims he appointed the Inner Circle members. Tiago says he voted for Inner Circle members. I would like to believe the V:EKN operates as Jussi believes. If you are elected to a post, you serve (ultimately) at the whim of that constituency, not the other way around. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

Again, I'm not a fan of this whole IC thing, but Brum is just being a fanboy sprouting out all kinds of nonsense about NC's voting for rhe IC. It's simply not the case. Never was. Johannes was elected as chairman by unanimous vote during the EC2010. Pascal was heavily pushed forward during the same meeting, but not formally appointed as LSJ had at that point in time not yet told everyone else he'd quit being the netrep. No other IC members were "chosen by vote". They were all appointed based on (flawed) criteria, similar to how the Design Team was appointed based on (flawed, as it turns out) criteria. Apparently this is going to change (good!) but that's how it's been until now. Now stop championing your own agendas here. I'm as much a hater of the whole VEKN/new set stuff as it gets but you guys are pushing the boundaries a bit further here.

> johannes wrote: > If you need further information about role and responsibility of NCs I suggest to read this: www.vekn.net/index.php/vampire-elder-kindred-network/what-is-a-national-coordinator > It seems the roles of Princes and National Coordinators are relatively well defined, as well as their relationships between each other. However, there is no definition of the role of V:EKN Chairman, nor any of the formal Inner Circle member positions. More importantly, those positions are not defined vis a vis the National Coordinators, who clearly play some role in their election. Moreover, it disturbs me that the NCs are not being consulted on this important structural matter. When I felt there was no further recourse to appeal my situation as part of the Design Team, I had to go public. As a result, I was taken to task by Brum for not following the process further by not consulting the NCs. It seems there are parallels to be drawn with the above State of the V:EKN post, in particular that the NCs were not consulted. I hope they also hold others to the same standard. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Jeff wrote: > When I felt there was no further recourse to appeal my situation as part of the Design Team, I had to go public. > Let's be honest: You did not HAVE to go public. There was no procedure, person, or force coercing you to make public previously private issues. Your choice was to go public to make known what you perceived to be existing issues. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> KevinM wrote: > Let's be honest: You did not HAVE to go public. There was no procedure, person, or force coercing you to make public previously private issues. Your choice was to go public to make known what you perceived to be existing issues. > Let's be honest : if you fear that kind of thing going public, there is a problem bad enough to be public. The fact that it have actually worsened after that is also enough proof for me. The thing that I am not sure is what happened and whether the IC is very bad at handling problem or is actively trying to bleach its underpants so that nobody took them red handed.

> Jeff wrote: > More importantly, those [Inner Circle] positions are not defined vis a vis the National Coordinators, who clearly play some role in their election. > > Moreover, it disturbs me that the NCs are not being consulted on this important structural matter. > You do realize you're stating something and its opposite in two consecutive sentences? Or do you mean that one of them should be read as what you think it is/what you think it should be?

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > KevinM wrote: > > Let's be honest: You did not HAVE to go public. There was no procedure, person, or force coercing you to make public previously private issues. Your choice was to go public to make known what you perceived to be existing issues. > > > Let's be honest : if you fear that kind of thing going public, there is a problem bad enough to be public. > Kevin didn´t talk about who fears what. He stated the simple fact that it was not a necessity to go public but a voluntary decision Jeff took after he wouldn´t accept the decisions of the Inner Circle. > Ohlmann wrote: > The fact that it have actually worsened after that is also enough proof for me. The thing that I am not sure is what happened and whether the IC is very bad at handling problem or is actively trying to bleach its underpants so that nobody took them red handed. > Did you ever think about the fact that the IC was maybe too decent to drag out private communication into the public just for the fact to discredit Jeff? Just because Jeff goes to that level, we don´t have to. I can take hard and well placed criticism, see my discussion with Izaak, but I get the impression that you are not really looking for answers, from my perception you are trolling around. I can´t understand why, but if you would be so kind to PM me your name and city I could at least place you somewhere in the whole picture. If you don´t want to, fine, just a polite request from my side.

> Jeff wrote: > So, what's really going on here? It seems to me like there are conflicting accounts of who voted for whom. > > Johannes claims he appointed the Inner Circle members. > > Tiago says he voted for Inner Circle members. > > I would like to believe the V:EKN operates as Jussi believes. If you are elected to a post, you serve (ultimately) at the whim of that constituency, not the other way around. > I think there is just a bit of fuzziness on words. Tiago say he voted because I let the NCs vote on certain matters to help in forming my opinion. That vote does not lead to a mandatory decision but it plays a big role leading up to the decision. The V:EKN works very much as Jussi perceives it. NCs (Voting Representatives) vote for the Chairman. The Chairman appoints the Ministers (IC members with a dedicated department).

VEKN is not a huge corporation. Nor it is a money making entity; actually there is, AFAIK, no money involved at all in VEKN. All that we need is capable volunteers that are willing to devote their own free time, free of charge, to the game that we all love. No one is about to benefit money-vise from VEKN. We do not need rigid guidelines and rules to resrict common sense. All we need is to have the things run smoothly in our VTES-train, not people pulling emergency brakes for, the way I start to see it, their hurt egos. I see little reason for the Inner Circle or the Chairman to ask the legion of NCs, many of which don't really feel the need to hang around here or follow up the daily minutae, about basically anything. Earlier on in this thread I noticed [EDIT:]Mr Amenophobis irrately demanding answers to the questions he had prepared in goo dtime -how long would you think it would take to answer if IC/Chariman needed NCs to consult/vote for all such minuae things? Day? Two? Week? Three weeks? Personally I'd be inclined towards the latter and even then all NCs wouldn't have taken part in the decision. Kinda appropriately I'd be inclined to comment that like, say, Camarilla in the game, VEKN isn't a bleeding democracy. Nor does it need to be. Things have been running well enough without it being such. Actually better than under White Wolf. So please stop rocking the boat, m'okay? Finnish Politics!

> Izaak wrote: > No other IC members were "chosen by vote". They were all appointed based on (flawed) criteria, similar to how the Design Team was appointed based on (flawed, as it turns out) criteria. Apparently this is going to change (good!) but that's how it's been until now. > You are right about the flawed criterias. We are working on defining criterias on a written basis, one of the responsibilites of the VEKN Scribe. > Izaak wrote: > Now stop championing your own agendas here. I'm as much a hater of the whole VEKN/new set stuff as it gets but you guys are pushing the boundaries a bit further here. > I couldn´t agree more.

> Jeff wrote: > More importantly, those [Inner Circle] positions are not defined vis a vis the National Coordinators, who clearly play some role in their election. > > Moreover, it disturbs me that the NCs are not being consulted on this important structural matter. > > Pascal wrote: > You do realize you're stating something and its opposite in two consecutive sentences? > Or do you mean that one of them should be read as what you think it is/what you think it should be? > To clarify: On the Main Menu on left side of this web site, the roles of Princes and National Coordinators are defined. There is merely a list of Inner Circle positions, not a description of what they do. It is clear that the NCs played some role in electing the V:EKN Chairman. However, that CRITICAL duty is not listed in their role responsibilities. In fact, if the V:EKN were to actually be run as a professional operation, there would be much more detailed descriptions of every role, who elects who, etc. I view the Inner Circle as somewhat of a "Board of Directors" of the organization. I do NOT view them as cabinet ministers beholding singly to the Chairman. This is a structural/process critique, as have most of my comments throughout this situation. Johannes clearly thinks that the Inner Circle members are beholden only to him. THIS IS A SERIOUS PROBLEM. I am not critiquing Johannes personally with this statement, nor the members of the current Inner Circle. But, there needs to be a structural check on this power. The National Coordinators *should* official selecting/electing the Inner Circle members (including the Chairman) to a fixed term of office, and reserve the SOLE POWER to dismiss them (since their authority is derived from those who elected them...good old Rousseau). It is irresponsible for the National Coordinators to invest in a single individual sole authority to run the organization in any way they see fit. This is just "common sense" good governance. That is every corporation has a Boards of Directors--to oversee the CEO. Even small organizations need a well-defined structure. I have been on boards of organizations much larger than the V:EKN. I was President of the Board for a K-12 independent study charter school which received millions of dollars in funding from the State of California. As part of that board, I had to deal with several lawsuits against the school and its employees (and by extension me personally, though the incidents happened well before my tenure) for not following processes which are matters of federal law in the United States. PROCESS MATTERS. This is not about ego. It never has been. Go back and read about all the process issues I have raised. I listed 10 process points in my response to the official IC response which have never been addressed. But, if you want to make the V:EKN a better organization, then try to figure out what is right and make it happen. I strongly believe that the people who are in charge (and again, this is not a personal critique of them, but of the power that their offices should have) SHOULD NOT be making these changes without their constituents HAVING THE FINAL SAY. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

to be honest, since I hadn't taken much thought to it, I had just kind of assumed that the NCs elected/nominated the IC (probably a few positions filled by default with no challengers), and that the IC then elected someone among themselves as chairman. Having the NCs elect a chairman who then has sole discretion over the IC seems a bit....feudal, almost. I guess if the NCs don't like how the chairman is acting the NCs could appoint a new chairman? My other main concern is with this from Johannes "Also we are not removing Eric from the IC, we move the storyline position into the design team. He quit the design team on his own free will so this step is only logical." My reading of this is, you're not firing Eric. You're moving the role he had out of the IC into the design team. So whoever is in that role is no longer in the IC, and it just happens to be Eric. But, since Eric quit the design team, and that's where his position now is, he's out of the VEKN structure altogether. That sounds really underhanded to me. I am sure that when he quit the design team, he did not intend to be quitting the IC or other VEKN positions, yet you're trying to make it sound like it was his choice to leave the IC. There should have at least been an IC vote about removing Eric from the IC. That way there'd be some oversight, and as an added bonus, since Eric himself would have gotten to vote as an IC member at that time, he would have known about both the intent and the result well before reading about it on a public post. So, to sum up, I agree with Jeff that the VEKN structure needs to be better defined, and have greater oversight controls in place over the powers of the chairman. Hopefully the work that the new Scribe is doing is a step in the right direction here. -- salem

> salem wrote: > Having the NCs elect a chairman who then has sole discretion over the IC seems a bit....feudal, almost. I guess if the NCs don't like how the chairman is acting the NCs could appoint a new chairman? > Of course they can. If there was a broad consensus that I am not needed I would take my hat in a minute. > salem wrote: > My other main concern is with this from Johannes "Also we are not removing Eric from the IC, we move the storyline position into the design team. He quit the design team on his own free will so this step is only logical." > > My reading of this is, you're not firing Eric. You're moving the role he had out of the IC into the design team. So whoever is in that role is no longer in the IC, and it just happens to be Eric. But, since Eric quit the design team, and that's where his position now is, he's out of the VEKN structure altogether. That sounds really underhanded to me. I am sure that when he quit the design team, he did not intend to be quitting the IC or other VEKN positions, yet you're trying to make it sound like it was his choice to leave the IC. > No it wasn´t his choice, it was ours. Sorry if that came out not very clear. We realized two things : - We need to move the Storyline into the DT - We don´t want Eric on the IC, because he is working against the V:EKN It was really just "handy" that it fell together. I would have considered keeping him on as Storyline guy, but since he was unable to work under the DT leader Ben Peal before how would that work now? > salem wrote: > There should have at least been an IC vote about removing Eric from the IC. That way there'd be some oversight, and as an added bonus, since Eric himself would have gotten to vote as an IC member at that time, he would have known about both the intent and the result well before reading about it on a public post. > There was an IC vote (minus Eric). Everybody else was for it so his vote wouldn´t have mattered. I wouldn´t have proceeded if anyone had serious objections anyway. But the reality is that all other IC members have been estranged from Eric to a point where cooperation was impossible. > salem wrote: > So, to sum up, I agree with Jeff that the VEKN structure needs to be better defined, and have greater oversight controls in place over the powers of the chairman. Hopefully the work that the new Scribe is doing is a step in the right direction here. > # The whole point of this State of the V:EKN was to imrpove the V:EKN structure and define it better. I don´t think there need to be more controls over the chairman, if your every step is controlled that is not very productive. If the players don´t like the Chairman they can talk to the NC and the NC can unite to remove him. I see your concerns and I think we are actually trying to address them. Be careful not to get sucked in other peoples own agendas in the process, though.

> Jeff wrote: > This is not about ego. It never has been. Go back and read about all the process issues I have raised. I listed 10 process points in my response to the official IC response which have never been addressed. > I think one of the problems, Jeff, is that you only complained about the process issues once you were pesonally affected. You mixed process with content and personel, by asking (just for example) the IC to fix Inquisitors into the set, fire Ben as a Team Laeder and change process around the DT. So how do I know your issues with process are motivated by your desire to improve the V:EKN and not a form of sniping motivated by the fact that you are sour because Inquisition didn´t make the set? I still want to believe people are acting of the right motivations, but I have become careful by now. I also think it is probable that your motivations are not the same as Eric and Carl´s. They are also different from the bystanders in this thread. > Jeff wrote: > But, if you want to make the V:EKN a better organization, then try to figure out what is right and make it happen. I strongly believe that the people who are in charge (and again, this is not a personal critique of them, but of the power that their offices should have) SHOULD NOT be making these changes without their constituents HAVING THE FINAL SAY. > I think we need to make sure we don´t blow the regulations out of proportions because we are not dealing with millions of state money. We need to stay agile and accomodate the fact that oftentimes the constituents are not interested in having a say. Janne basically made a good point there, so I am not going to repeat it.

> johannes wrote: > No it wasn´t his choice, it was ours. Sorry if that came out not very clear. > > We realized two things : > - We need to move the Storyline into the DT > - We don´t want Eric on the IC, because he is working against the V:EKN > > It was really just "handy" that it fell together. I would have considered keeping him on as Storyline guy, but since he was unable to work under the DT leader Ben Peal before how would that work now? > Well, you would have been a lot better off to actually say from the get go "we fire Echiang and move its position to [XXX]". Burning some heretics is just a decision that I may find good or bad, but it happen from time to time, and it's bound to happen. Trying to hid thoses acts create bad rumours, give the impression you're trying to cover your ass, and give the impression you're abusing your power regardless of whether you're abusing it or not. Also, it create even more bad blood between you and Echiang than a simple and "professional" firing, while being able to reconciliate may in some case be what you need to do in the future.

> Ohlmann wrote: > Well, you would have been a lot better off to actually say from the get go "we fire Echiang and move its position to [XXX]". > If you re-read the letter you will discover that I state. > The Storyline Coordinator position will be moved from the Inner Circle to the Design Team. > Exactly what you ask. > Eric Chiang will be leaving us as storyline coordinator after running the event at the NAC. We thank him for his service. > I could have written "fired" instead of "leaving" to clarify that it was not his intention but ours. I simply wanted to leave that open, knowing that he would clarify himself if he WANTS TO. Some people would have probably preferred if the intention wasn´t made clear. So except for one little detail I did exactly that. If the prime quality you want in your Chairman is to polish every little word he writes and make everything as slick as soap (in a foreign language) go ahead and find that Chairman. That´s not me, and I don´t think it is what makes a good Chairman.

Can we please move on to something constructive? Now, who do I make this out to? Award Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

> Jeff wrote: > THIS IS A SERIOUS PROBLEM. > > [...] > > PROCESS MATTERS. > In my opinion these worries about process are mainly a smokescreen to avoid the fact that you did not recognize the authority of the Inner Circle over the Design Team, a body created by the Inner Circle. V:EKN Website Coordinator

> Damnans wrote: > www.vekn.net/index.php/vampire-elder-kindred-network/213-state-of-the-vekn-may-1 > ....The good news is this only slightly impacted the development process and we are still on track for Round 3 of playtesting. Ben Peal will speak to more details in an upcoming Designers' Diary.... > Johannes Walch > Chairman of the V:EKN > Please forgive me if this has been asked and I missed the response, or if we're clearly supposed to simply wait for the next Diary. But I think these questions are timely and appropriate. First, I am curious to know if the 3 departed members of the DT have been replaced, or if Round Three and the release versions will be handled by an abbreviated team. If so, how abbreviated? I know that you have intentionally been secretive about who sits on the design team to protect them from a deluge of unsolicited email. I'm fine with that, I'm not asking for names, just numbers. Second, from the IC's viewpoint, what will be the structure of the Design Team for any subsequent fan-based sets? Are we looking at the same process and people, or would a new group be assembled with some latitude for self-governance? (I'm not suggesting that the V:EKN immediately be glutton enough for punishment that a second set is commissioned immediately - I just want to know if this is the IC's vision for "business as usual going forward" Thanks in advance. Darby

The Design team has had people join, leave, return, go silent and resign over the course of the process. Also, new production positions have been added and new people have stepped up over the months. There are many voices contributing to the current production and cards and all is proceeding on schedule. There is going to be a detailed review and if and when a next set is produced, there will be a structure in place and a team set up that is a direct reflection of what has been learned, both good and bad, during the course of this production. I would say that the current process and how it came about could be simply described as: "Let's create a small set of cards to keep the game fresh and alive while waiting for a new publisher. We will ask some folks to help and ask for volunteers and they will go off and create a small set. No problem." It could have been that easy. It is really not that hard to design a set of cards. But things got a little crazy and now we have this... distraction that has taken up way too much time, caused a lot of pain and distrust and has the player base questioning nearly everything the IC does and says. Much more effort and time has been devoted to dealing with all the "issues" then has been spent working on the set, and that is a waste of valuable, volunteer, time and a real shame. So yes, things will be done differently and every system, procedure and person will be reviewed, input will be requested from the player base and maybe the next time will be a pleasant and rewarding experience for all involved. Thanks, David Tatu V:EKN Scribe

> david.tatu wrote: > It is really not that hard to design a set of cards. > This depends on what goals you have. I don´t think it´s easy at all with VtES. Lots of things to think about. I agree with the rest though "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."