Long Term Investment

New fan-created cards are being developed using the same methods used to develop a traditionally published collectible card game. Per se, I don't have a problem with that. My concern is further development. What about the next set? And the one after that? Twenty sets down the road? We are dealing with a different form of distribution. Right now designing new cards for the game has to deal with a huge amount of cards that were previously published. Three sets from now, we will have even more cards to take into consideration when designing and balancing new cards. But all of those electronically distributed cards can be changed. It requires the player to reprint the new version of older cards, but that is a small price to pay for game balance and more flexibility in further card development. One of the things that I have always liked about Vampire: the Eternal Struggle is that cards are rarely banned. Your cards are good for legal play forever. There is even precedent: We have "card text migration" when a card is reprinted in a new set with updated text. We have "errata" where card text is changed or explained in better detail. We have "rulings" which determine how a card interacts with the rules or other cards With an electronically distributed and self printed card game you can actually make those changes. For a card text migration, errata, or card ruling you don't have to look up the new card text when playing an older version when you can print out the new version. Going a step further, we can alter "officially published" cards by simply requiring players to print out the new version of the card and placing it in a sleeve with the original card. After all, to play the new V:EKN sanctioned cards you will have to do the same. I could go on. I have a lot of thoughts on this subject, but this is a lot to think about. Please, I want to hear what other people think about electronic distribution of cards, and how it affects card development. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

Yeah, it´s excellent that the new "pdf-cards" can be altered if somethings goes wrong and must be changed. No gazillion-card print run has been made. But I don´t have the same worries about the future as you do. Sure it seem dark right now, but if we´re lucky a company picks up VTES and starts printing it again. What we have to do is convince them that the pdf-cards VEKN produce in "the gap" is high quality and worthy of printing for real. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

We want VtES to be attractive to start again. Barring a fan with some spares millions, this mean the economic model should be something tried and true. Electronically altered card that fully utilise the numerical world will not appear as something that ould sell as well as magic.

> Ashur wrote: > What we have to do is convince them that the pdf-cards VEKN produce in "the gap" is high quality and worthy of printing for real. > On the other hand, *if* a company buys VTES and choose not to print those cards, it's not catastrophic. Just some design.playtest work lost (which is sad) but nothing too bad for the game. I'm much worried by the new cards they will print. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > On the other hand, *if* a company buys VTES and choose not to print those cards, it's not catastrophic. Just some design.playtest work lost (which is sad) but nothing too bad for the game. I'm much worried by the new cards they will print. > Of course not catastrophic, but not desirable. And yes, it would be horrible if someone that don´t understand the game started to make cards. But they would be really stupid if they didn´t let some very able people handle that bit. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

I think the whole business model needs to be changed. 1) there aren't enough players to justify huge printing runs (the profit margin is smaller with fewer cards printed) 2) all of our old cards are still good for play, so players don't have to buy new cards At this point, we recruiting new players is near impossible. Sure, those of us with large collections can share or sell to new players, but the cost of getting a lot of the good cards is prohibitive. There is something we can do about the second problem. If the game were sold "print on demand" there would be a higher cost per card, but there would be less waste as players would buy the cards they wanted. There would have to be some game changes: 1) Will there be card limits for "power cards" or will the game have to be balanced around the fact you can have an unlimited number of a card in your deck? 2) Perhaps cards would be bought in "packs" based on a number of "common" "uncommon" and "rare" cards per "pack" These are things that V:EKN should be thinking about as they release sets electronically. We need vision and innovation whether or not this game is officially published again. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

> direwolf wrote: > If the game were sold "print on demand" there would be a higher cost per card, but there would be less waste as players would buy the cards they wanted. > I think this sounds really interesting. Is it possible to do "boosters" print-on-demand? Do anyone know what would it would cost? "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

as much as the idea of printing whole boosters on demand sounds like an easy way to not end up with 342 copies of brick laying, i like the (remind me i said this later, when we get picked back up and i'm complaining about never opening what i need) fact that vtes is a collectible card game. the nature of ccg's makes us seem more profitable to a company looking at paying hasbro and ccp to pick up the game. as far as getting prints of exactly what any given player wants, i'm sure that given the fanbase demand for tenth anniversary tins (which i've been told were horribly expensive to make because of the tins they were in) i'm sure static sets of reprints are a profitable option once the game returns to print. i wouldn't bet my life savings on the impact of ccp's mmorpg, but lets face it, impact from that and the potential of printing a new "starter" set to get new players interested and get existing players new vamps and some new library cards are things for a company buying our game to look at for making a profit.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > ...fact that vtes is a collectible card game... > Business model / distribution model != game. Point well-taken about the value of vtes to a company. Just fighting the misconception that we can't separate the nature of the game from the ripoff scheme it was distributed by.

> direwolf wrote: > 1) Will there be card limits for "power cards" > Why would there be? > direwolf wrote: > or will the game have to be balanced around the fact you can have an unlimited number of a card in your deck? > It already is. Playtesters deliberately don't get to know the rarity of cards (at least historically; I haven't done any playtesting of the VEKN set).

I really think CCG model shouldn't belong to this century anymore. I like the LCG model better. What should be done is try to make Vekn publish one small pdf set about once per year and try to make tournaments supported. That dedication shows there are still lot of players and even lot of volunteers to make the game better. That is really good sign to show for some future publisher. I feel Vtes is not gonna die even in ten years. But when it comes to future publisher I feel Vtes is kind of dead end now. There are over 3000 legal cards. No new player want to make that kind of hassle and dedication. But resetting would make small but vocal old player base very angry. Some ground in between would be hard to make. You will either not make game suited for new players or anger the old fan base. Actually some "print on demand" expansions would make sense that includes some old cards and lets say 20% new cards. But that business way wouldn't make so much money and I guess you need lot of starting investment to buy licensing from WW and Hasbro.

> Kushiel wrote: > It already is. Playtesters deliberately don't get to know the rarity of cards (at least historically; I haven't done any playtesting of the VEKN set). > And, regardless of the actual rarity of a card, they will be player dedicated enough to make a deck with 50 of it. I don't recall people putting less Summon History in theirs deck because it's bloody impossible to get, and Magic have proven me that being a rare in the first edition, ten year ago, and never printed again is still far from being "rare" for dedicated peoples.

i think that rarety in vtes is a strange thing with many sets. r2 and similar ratings make less sense to me than "i've seen 2 tupdogs from one box of LoB and 3 from another" the amount of cards available hasn't deterred many players i've tried to get into the game as much as the learning curve of the game has just by its nature. we're alot more complicated than magic, but the intellectual capacity needed is one of the benefits of the game as well. a new company printing us will be aware that some people would buy a pallet of booster displays to get enough summon histories to build a house out of. they will also see how well a product sells based upon how much use players get out of whats in it. the heirs precons sold like crazy, but nights of reckoning booster boxes aren't on my personal want list. everything is a factor, its a matter of what you would like to see as the future of vtes.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > we're alot more complicated than magic, but the intellectual capacity needed is one of the benefits of the game as well. > Well I don't agree with this. Complicated rules doesn't mean that game needs intellectual capacity. I feel best game design is the total opposite. Vtes just requires lot of dedication to master the rules and remember all cards (+some errata). Best design for me is simple to learn but difficult to master. I also feel Magic requires a lot of thinking and tournament + draft play works amazing with that game. I don't even get why Vtes is compared to MTG. I feel those games are trying to get a very different players and I feel only similar thing is only that both games use cards. Maybe you could compare Vtes to AGoT LCG. I would say it is the social aspect you need in Vtes, MTG requires the analytic mind. What I feel in Vtes is that the game play basics are amazing. I don't like basics of MTG. I like that in Vtes I can draw a card when I play a card and the game is crypt minion driven. Making costs with your life is also great. Richard Garfield is really one of the best game designers ever. But I also feel Vtes has a lot of useless rules and mechanisms which just makes the game unnecessary complicated without necessary adding much for the whole game.

> Surreal wrote: > But I also feel Vtes has a lot of useless rules and mechanisms which just makes the game unnecessary complicated without necessary adding much for the whole game. > Well, VtES is the older CCG in the market that hadn't had grand-scale rule rewriting. The rule of magic are "simple" and clean because they have been cleaned and thousands of card errated. As good as Garfield is, he haven't found the right balance in rule quantity in the first try. Nor in the second

Yea, that is true also. I bet first editions of MTG was a mess. When I think it more I don't feel Vtes rules are so messy considering game really hasn't have so many major new editions or rule resets. I think there is only one when some actions came not repeatable. Mainly Vtes could just use some clarifications.

VTES is really amazing in the clean rules area when you look at magic next to it. the last straw for me quitting magic was in the form of yet more rules changes and staples not being reprinted to stay type 2 eligible. vtes doesn't rotate, has less wallpaper cards, and our rules don't keep getting revisions, just individual cards. its still a somewhat imperfect machine, but mtg is still a financial goldmine for wotc/hasbro, doesn't it at least suggest that since vtes was structured better out of the gates that we still have even more potential than mtg? (ok, maybe thats just optimism and conjecture, but we're less in need of fixing in our rules...)

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > its still a somewhat imperfect machine, but mtg is still a financial goldmine for wotc/hasbro, doesn't it at least suggest that since vtes was structured better out of the gates that we still have even more potential than mtg? > Netrunner - which have by far the cleanest ruleset I have seen - may sadly show that the rules and structures are far from being enough. Part of the magic success repose on some fact : * they consistently churn out solid and new cards which for 99% are variations from the existant, so the game is never the same yet does not evolve too much. * you can lay out your strategy while ignoring your opponent, leading to easy entry-level deck. * the universe appeal to more popular images. Everybody see what is a dragon and a wizard, and FF, Skyrim, and co already make the job of popularizing medieval-fantastic. * Magic have a lot of fame. * organizing games are very easy, since it's 1vs1 None of thoses points can easily be put over VtES. It may have some success, but VtES is more a concurrent to Catane and boardgame than magic.

I would just stop comparing MTG and Vtes because those games are planned to totally different players. I think MTG has very solid game play mechanism also. This can just be proved by looking other CCGs with very similar rule set. Popular doesn't mean bad, actually usually it means the opposite. I like a lot FFGs card games and those games share lot of similarities to MTG but they fixed some main problems. Why there can't be fast and popular 1vs1 game with Vtes kind of mechanism with a good theme. I would buy that game instantly. Ohlmann: I would say MTG is what Catane is to boardgames. Vtes is the Twilight Imperium.

these comparisons are still really hard to make accurately in terms of marketability. we are out of print, and the profit of us being back in print is diminished instantly by any new company having to pay hasbro and ccp. but comparing to board games like catan..... would it be possible/prudent for a future publisher to do all preconstructed sealed product? if a new "starter" set came out based on just cam or even all 13 basic clans presented in vtm, we as original players would be at least partially shafted by needing to buy a billion reprints of things in boosters to get 15-17 new vamps from each clan. what if it was marketed just as static sealed product, like the 10th anniversary sets, blood shadowed court, or precons? we'd still have stuff being printed, still be interesting to new players, and not have to be as wasteful in buying what we already have while still buying cards from a new publisher for what new things are printed. obviously some technicalities would be up to the company, but does the concept seem reasonable?

> Ashur wrote: > > > direwolf wrote: > > If the game were sold "print on demand" there would be a higher cost per card, but there would be less waste as players would buy the cards they wanted. > > > I think this sounds really interesting. Is it possible to do "boosters" print-on-demand? Do anyone know what would it would cost? > Yes, it is possible. www.thegamecrafter.com is a site that has been mentioned before one these forums, it is possible to make a card game that is purchased as boosters. EDIT: off the top of my head, i do not know the cost. However, no company that doesn't want to get sued will touch cards if you don't have the license to print em. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.