Hey everyone, this is Adam Hulse, I run the "vtes gig" down in NYC. Some of you probably know me. I don't post that often but I was just curious if this would "work". I'm only writing because I haven't heard a good argument against it other then "it's too late and that's that". But the edit to Villein done by you guys gives me some hope though.
Lilith's Blessing is a good card.
Lilith's Blessing is strong for a lot of modules. Particularly with villein. [no need to go into examples]
I SUSPECT that something was missed in the design because of its huge impact. Probably some due to the game production ending.
So here is my simple question - to not take away from the effectiveness of the card but make it more er... fair? [sorry lack of a better term]
...
Why not just make it unique?
...
That is all.
Adam Hulse
Prince of New York
Might as well just ban it. A deck that relies on Lilith's Blessing shouldn't be unplayable just because someone else at the table is playing it. The impact would be similar to contesting vampires.
> Dorrinal wrote:
> Might as well just ban it. A deck that relies on Lilith's Blessing shouldn't be unplayable just because someone else at the table is playing it. The impact would be similar to contesting vampires.
>
A quick look at the TWDA suggests that LB is a good card to have and a bad card to build around. I see many decks with just a single copy, along with Jake Washington, Perfectionist and/or Hunting Ground. IME, a deck focusing on LB + Villein is great at surviving and terribly unreliable at ousting, usually thanks to having vampires on low blood and choking on masters.
I don't know how to respond to someone who thinks contesting vampires is okay. So I'll come at this another way: what is the problem you are trying to solve, and how does your suggestion solve it?
> erewego wrote:
> I SUSPECT that something was missed in the design because of its huge impact.
>
A lot of it's popularity probably owes to the storyline event in which players could start every game with LB on the table, allowing them to really abuse the card. In normal game play, it's just another blood gain master.
> Suoli wrote:
> In normal game play, it's just another blood gain master.
>
Hunh? "just another" blood gain master?
Which other blood gain masters are as good as Lillith's Blessing?
Jake Washington is about the only one I can think of that compares, and he doesn't combo with Villein, can't be used for multiple vampires, doesn't give the vampire a skill card, etc., although of course he's good.
Captain Hindsight and I agree that it would have been more balanced if the skill card-fetching-thing was forced, ie you had to get a skill card to use the ability at all. But it seem too late to do anything about that now.
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
> Ashur wrote:
> Captain Hindsight and I agree that it would have been more balanced if the skill card-fetching-thing was forced,
>
Indeed so.
Or Unique, although I think your and Cap's idea is better.
Then again, it sure would be great if in the future we got cards that enabled other players to take advantge of the Vamps blessed by Lilith (= that have Bahari keyword).
Could range from additional intercept/stealth/bleed/combat effect against Bahari...
Finnish Politics!
> AaronC wrote:
> Hunh? "just another" blood gain master?
>
> Which other blood gain masters are as good as Lillith's Blessing?
>
> Jake Washington is about the only one I can think of that compares, and he doesn't combo with Villein, can't be used for multiple vampires, doesn't give the vampire a skill card, etc., although of course he's good.
>
LB requires other cards and more than one mpa's to function. The mpa's especially do matter. To top it off, it always leaves you at 3 blood. In practice, that's a lot of restrictions.
To be honest, multiple MPA cards are more the source of the problem than Lillith herself. Without MPA, it's powerful but problematics, since you will either choke on master if you play a regular number and want to use Lillith, or don't use them if you play few master to be sure to not jam when you need to Lillith.
That's one of the reason for which anti-MPA card seem better than anti-Bahari card. Anti-MPA will help against both Lillith and good old Anthelios use. Anti-Bahari would help only against Lillith.
(then again, you may believe that Lillith is still too good without multiple MPA, but it is either a side card not too hard to get or a really difficult to use)
> Ashur wrote:
> Captain Hindsight and I agree that it would have been more balanced if the skill card-fetching-thing was forced, ie you had to get a skill card to use the ability at all. But it seem too late to do anything about that now.
>
There isn't a "search" card in the game that currently forces you to find anything, is there?
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017
> KevinM wrote:
>
> > Ashur wrote:
> > Captain Hindsight and I agree that it would have been more balanced if the skill card-fetching-thing was forced, ie you had to get a skill card to use the ability at all. But it seem too late to do anything about that now.
> >
> There isn't a "search" card in the game that currently forces you to find anything, is there?
>
Vast Wealth does that.
If I recall there was some ruling where Vast Wealth could be used to shuffle your library even if there was no equipment left - so it didn't "force" you to find something.
> Bell wrote:
> If I recall there was some ruling where Vast Wealth could be used to shuffle your library even if there was no equipment left - so it didn't "force" you to find something.
>
Vast Wealth forces you to find something if there is something there. If the library doesn't have any equipment in it, you fizzle. But, having gone through your library, you shuffle it.
Vast Wealth forces you to find the "First Equipment in your library". If there is one, then you MUST put it on the minion and pay its cost (even if paying the cost will reduce your pool to 0). If the first equipment in your library is not found, since there is none, then you fail to find the first and shuffle.
I think Lilith's Blessing would be a lot less of a hassle if there were anti-Bahari cards, but these won't have been developed purely because of the sudden ending of development of VTES.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> I think Lilith's Blessing would be a lot less of a hassle if there were anti-Bahari cards, but these won't have been developed purely because of the sudden ending of development of VTES.
>
With the huge number of bahari vampire and card giving bahari, it seem to be a clunky and very situational card.
If we want anti-Bahari card, we also need more bahari. Putting a card that is useful only against Infamous Insurgent and Lillith Blessing is not too sexy for me, and in any way about as situational as playing Infamous Warlock because the local meta is filled with !tremere vote.
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> I think Lilith's Blessing would be a lot less of a hassle if there were anti-Bahari cards, but these won't have been developed purely because of the sudden ending of development of VTES.
>
Anti-X cards absolutely, positively do NOT make X less powerful, and therefore are EXACTLY the wrong approach to card design.
Instead, unbalanced cards are rewritten to be balanced (2nd and 5th Tradition) or are banned (PTO, Edge Explosion) because they cannot be balanced through rewriting, although some banned cards could have been fixed IMO (Memories of Mortality).
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017
To bring Kevin's comments around to Lilith's Blessing in particular: the biggest problem (and in my opinion the only problem) is Lilith's Blessing rewards players for sucking their vampires dry, gaining an extra 3 or more pool off each Villein. I challenge anyone to solve that problem with a card text change.
(hint: making it unique doesn't solve the problem)
What if "Lilith's Blessing" were to burn under the condition that that you do not move a master card to the vampire?
In theory, it would force players to pack multiple "Lilith's Bessings" or pack enough Discipline cards, as well as prevent it form being abused on vampires who do not need the disciplines.
Anyway, just a thought.
Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.
If the aim is to stop Villein/Lilith's Blessing. Some text could be added to Lilith's Blessing to the effect that you cannot use it if you have already used a master phase action this turn.
This will stop Villein/Lilith's Blessing bloat and abuse with multiple master phase decks. Yet still be playable by decks that have problems with blood management. Salubri anti, Ravnos...
Nick
> Chaitan wrote:
> IMHO Lilith's Blessing is only superpowerful because of Villein.
>
Not so.
Weenie decks that use cards that cost blood also benefit HUGELY from Lilith's Blessing.
Dominate weenies for example tend to run out of blood quite quickly (Gover, Conditioning, Deflect,...) and Lilith's Blessing really gives them a boost.
Also the skill card fetching of Lilith's Blessing works great for weenies.
Finnish Politics!
> Dorrinal wrote:
> To bring Kevin's comments around to Lilith's Blessing in particular: the biggest problem (and in my opinion the only problem) is Lilith's Blessing rewards players for sucking their vampires dry, gaining an extra 3 or more pool off each Villein. I challenge anyone to solve that problem with a card text change.
>
> (hint: making it unique doesn't solve the problem)
>
That's easy: change Villein so that a vampire with a Villein on him becomes Bahari. Minion Tap + Lilith's Blessing is already much more acceptable due to the MPA cost.
> Lönkka wrote:
>
> > Chaitan wrote:
> > IMHO Lilith's Blessing is only superpowerful because of Villein.
> >
> Not so.
>
> Weenie decks that use cards that cost blood also benefit HUGELY from Lilith's Blessing.
>
> Dominate weenies for example tend to run out of blood quite quickly (Gover, Conditioning, Deflect,...) and Lilith's Blessing really gives them a boost.
>
> Also the skill card fetching of Lilith's Blessing works great for weenies.
>
Yes, it's a great card. Just like Dreams of the Sphinx or Perfectionist. It is a very useful card for just about any deck and as you said, for weenies just more so.
My argument was not that LB is a bad card just that Villein makes it so much better.
Edit: I love Boris The Blade's suggestion.
As Pascal said in another thread : Lilith's blessing was made for a storyline event. Thus, its impact on the game may have been greatly overlooked.
Either ban it, or make it unique so we can contest it like we can already do for the rack, the coven or jake.
Boris suggestion is interesting, but it makes another change to villein solely based on the existence of Lilith. Let's errata lilith instead.
kthx.
Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
I really don´t like banning or errata. In my experience the card isn´t all that good. In the swedish enviroment you really have to pick your MPA´s, and playing with the Villein+Lilith´s combo takes just about all you MPA´s, unless you have alot of them.
A better way would be to add a couple of cards that hoses Lilith´s a bit. Not "silver bullet"-I destroy your game-hosing, but gentle smooth-hosing
It´s much more urgent to do something about MMPA-decks in general. Like I said, they are the ones that really can abuse Lilith´s.
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
Of course your mileage may vary depending on your metagame, but recently in paris we see mid caps as well as big vamps all influenced out for free.
So i spent 6 pool on a vamp, i villein him for 6, and he gains 3 and can act this turn. Problem ? :trollface:
Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
A - maybe incomplete - way to avoid the problem would be to change the trifle rule so as the trifle master is the last one you play, instead of the first one. This way, you would have to MPA to minion tap + Lillith (3 cards), instead of "just" needing villein and Lillith.
It would reinforce MPA, however.
> Ohlmann wrote:
> A - maybe incomplete - way to avoid the problem would be to change the trifle rule so as the trifle master is the last one you play, instead of the first one. This way, you would have to MPA to minion tap + Lillith (3 cards), instead of "just" needing villein and Lillith.
>
> It would reinforce MPA, however.
>
Why change the trifle rule, which works fine as it is, just to trump one card ?
Why not change the said card ? Can you explain this please ? -_-
Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
> Reyda wrote:
> Why change the trifle rule, which works fine as it is, just to trump one card ?
> Why not change the said card ? Can you explain this please ? -_-
>
You can too. Some people believe that changing rule is better than changing card, and the additional amount of text on Villein may be a turn off.
> Reyda wrote:
> So i spent 6 pool on a vamp, i villein him for 6, and he gains 3 and can act this turn.
>
Like I said, the Villein+Lilith´s module takes just about all your master card slots, so that you don´t have room for Dreams, Pentex and lots of other stuff that actually make you oust. So I think the problem is exaggerated.
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
> Ashur wrote:
>
> > Reyda wrote:
> > So i spent 6 pool on a vamp, i villein him for 6, and he gains 3 and can act this turn.
> >
> Like I said, the Villein+Lilith´s module takes just about all your master card slots, so that you don´t have room for Dreams, Pentex and lots of other stuff that actually make you oust. So I think the problem is exaggerated.
>
Mmm you've said it but not proved it...
Examine this master module :
6-7x Villein
3x Lilith's blessing
2x Dreams
2x Pentex
you still have room for 2-3 other masters (info highway, Giant's blood ?). And the cards are there. The additional lilith's can be discarded by using dreams effectively. You have room.
But talking of Pentex and Dreams : they are strong cards. They are unique. They will be contested at some point. Meanwhile Lilith's blessing flies under the contest radar...
Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
> Reyda wrote:
> you still have room for 2-3 other masters (info highway, Giant's blood ?). And the cards are there. The additional lilith's can be discarded by using dreams effectively. You have room.
>
I guess this depends on how many cards you want in your deck in total. I seldom build decks over 75 cards unless they are strict stealth-bleed, and then the amount of masters you suggest is a bit too much, and you jam on Villeins, don´t draw your Lilith´s etc. But I can agree to disagree here, no problem.
On another note: The metagame are bound to evolve because of Lilith´s, and it doesn´t have to be all bad. When many Lilith-decks turned up around here, we saw an increase in rush decks and attrition decks. Vampires get more vulnerable when their low on blood.
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
Lilith's Blessing is obviously on the upper end of the power curve. But is it broken enough to warrant errata or banning?
It fundamentally says, "Add 3 pool to the game, multiple times. Only usable in combination with a certain set of game state characteristics." That game state (empty ready vampire and an available master phase action) is not too hard to achieve. But then, neither it is that hard to achieve passing a successful referendum and then playing Voter Captivation. Or to play Giant's Blood. Or pass Ancient Influence or Political Stranglehold. Or successfully Govern the Unaligned at superior. Or play Powerbase: Montreal (which someone benefits from every turn it is in play, often more than one person).
So, on the whole, I don't think Lilith's Blessing is *more* broken than any of those other pool gain tactics. It's just very good at what it does and the opportunity costs to using it are relatively low.
Best Solution For Now: Play more Sudden Reversals and Washes.
When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
I totally agree on the "play more sudden part". And it's sad since it's the only thing that breaks the combo (succesful & efficient rush aside I guess)
At least there are many way to stop a political action : intercept, delaying, outvoting etc...
Additionnal argument : you seem to forget that Lilith's blessing can *stack on top* of things like passing a voter captivation on a political stranglehold. " Hey, look at me gaining 15 pool total this turn "
Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
Put this card in play. As your first master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and becomes Bahari.
> Shard wrote:
> Put this card in play. As your first master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and becomes Bahari.
>
nice !
Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
> Shard wrote:
> Put this card in play. As your first master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and becomes Bahari.
>
A clean way to avoid using minion tap or Villein too easily and to force to have a bloodless vampire exploitable at least by your predator.
> Shard wrote:
> Put this card in play. As your first master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and becomes Bahari.
>
Nice suggestion. Too bad we hadn't that for the poll back in december. It could have won.
Baron of Frankfurt
> Reyda wrote:
> And it's sad since it's the only thing that breaks the combo (succesful & efficient rush aside I guess)
> At least there are many way to stop a political action : intercept, delaying, outvoting etc...
>
I think this is important thing. As several wise persons have said, this game could use some new, original ways to hose MPA:s as it has become a very powerful resouce in the game.
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
Actually I think the issue with Lilith + Villein might not be Lilith, but Villein.
Last RTR addressed the issue of Villein making Minion Tap completely unplayable but doing so completely removed the possibility to have a Villein-Minion Tap interaction comparable to the Vessel-Blood Doll interaction.
Vessel is worse than Blood Doll (slower) but is Trifle and hoses it. Problem with Villein is that it was not really worse than Minion Tap, but still trifle and Minion Tap hoser. That was fixed by making it not hose Minion Tap anymore, while, in my opinion, it would have made more sense to "nerf" it so that it was actually worse than Minion Tap (e.g. with a 1-2 pool cost or by having it increase the cost of all Villeins - and Minion Taps on this vampire only - instead of the opposite).
This would allow to get an interesting Villein-MT interaction (while right now Villein is a no brainer unless you play heavy refill) and to limit the possibility of emptying a vampire to your pool *as a trifle*, and this way limit the Lilith Blessing combo.
What is the actual effect of using Lilith's Blessing?
1) You can gain 3 extra blood per minion
2) You can gain a discipline card (i'll mostly ignore this, it's part of the equation, but blood seems to be the pressing issue)
This costs you:
1) One MPA and one pool as investment
2) One MPA per use
3) Emptying your vampire
One MPA for three blood, I would say is a worthwhile cost, three blood can change a lot in a game. The cost will, though, be two MPAs if you only use it once. Two MPAs for 3 blood? Not so efficient, compare with Life in the City which can get you 4 blood with two MPAs for no pool cost and no opportunity cost. Most likely, to efficiently use Lilith's Blessing you want to use it multiple times.
It's probably likely you get to use Lilith's Blessing once in a game if you don't cut corners. Two could also happen, but will not happen every game. I would claim that to make Lilith's Blessing efficient you need to ascertain it's being used at least twice during a game. Else you're better off with Life in the City, The Coven, Giant's Blood or Jake Washington.
So, what do I mean by cutting corners? What are the ways we employ to empty our vampires so we can use our hard-earned Lilith's Blessing in the most efficient way? They include, but are not limited to:
- Playing cards with certain minions which have low amounts of blood
- Playing wasteful (or half-wasteful) cards which costs blood
- Building the deck with a low amount of masters (not a way to empty vampires, but still a price we pay to make Lilith's Blessing efficient)
- Transferring off extra blood with blood doll/vessel/villein
Playing cards with certain minions which have low amounts of blood
The most obvious example of this is if you have two minions ready you chose to play deflection with the minions with one blood, rather than the other one. Another example which I would put in this category is playing The Becoming, Creation Rites or Third Tradition and moving enough blood to empty the sire or to not move any amount of blood to make the childe be empty of blood. This category of uses is not wasteful per se, though a deck which is regularly low on blood might have other problems, or a deck which uses above mentioned breed-cards has some constraints which in turn might be wasteful. (e.g. Becoming requires lots of skill cards, Creation Rites requires a sabbat titled vampire)
Playing wasteful (or half-wasteful) cards which costs blood
This is kind of self-explanatory. I would mostly say that this is a good option to have, it's good if you use it intelligently but can still be really bad. If you don't have any other masters, you have an Eluding the Arms of Morpheus you can't imagine any other use for and you really need two more blood immedietly you can play the Eluding and then gain three blood during your next masters phase. What is important to know is that this is not a net gain of 2 blood. Since every vampire can only become Bahari once using Lilith's Blessing early is actually just borrowing blood from yourself. I remind you of what I said in the opening; Lilith's Blessing is a blood gain of three per vampire. An 8 cap will have 11 blood to use during a game, disregarding other ways to gain blood.
Building a deck with a low amount of masters
If you want to be most efficient with Lilith's Blessing you want to use it for all of your vampires. If you for the length of a game bring out 6 vampires (not unlikely with a Lilith's Blessing-focused deck) the cost in MPAs will be 7, so this one single card replaces 7 other masters. Most decks use their MPAs for a combination of ousting (Dreams, Pentex, Misdirection, AT, Fame, crypt acc.) and blood gain. With a Lilith's Blessing-focused deck you commit your masters to almost solely blood gain (i.e. using Lilith's Blessing). This has an obvious and tangible impact on your own ability to oust, especially if your prey uses this new combo "Villein+Lilith's Blessing". One might say that the introduction of Lilith's Blessing makes it impossible to play Lilith's Blessing because of the risk that your prey uses Lilith's Blessing.
This part becomes less of a problem for decks with multiple MPAs, since they can include above mentioned oust-masters still. These decks do still have to prioritize Lilith's Blessing over something else, though. I would for instance have a hard time seeing it possible to have oust-masters, heavy Lilith's Blessing use and Liquidation+Ashur Tablets in the same deck. So the point still stands for master-decks, even if it might be on shakier ground.
Transferring off extra blood with blood doll/vessel/villein
By far the most common way to facilitate repeated and reliable use of Lilith's Blessing is Villein. Blood dolls and Vessels can serve the same purpose, but it's less common. As pointed out earlier, playing cards which empty your vampires for the express intent of using Lilith's Blessing is, in effect, just borrowing blood from yourself. You could have played the Villein for Cap-1 and have had 4 blood available, or Cap-2 and have had 5 blood available. Why does this not happen? I can see only two explanations; 1) to use MPAs more efficiently (i.e. no more masters on hand), or 2) the counters are more valuable as pool than they are as blood.
The first point is a deck-building error, I think. It's possible to build a deck which plays good masters every turn, you should not be forced to play your cards sub-optimally just to make use of your MPAs. The second point is the big reasoning flaw which makes these decks so popular. With this games efficient cards and disciplines blood can relate to pool on a 1:16-ratio in the most extreme cases and 1:1 in the most unfavourable cases. 1:16, how? Say Arika bleeds you for 8 with GTU and conditioning. If you spend one blood to reduce the bleed by 8 and at the same time deal 8 damage to your prey. Given, this does not happen very often, but to bounce a bleed for 2 is still favourable by a ratio of 1:4, or if you feel like being extremely uncharitable to this reasoning it's a ratio of 1:2. A ratio of 1:2 still makes the counter twice as powerful as blood than as pool. I realize that if you want to compare GTU+Conditioning the most valid comparison would be against Scouting Mission+Threats, in which you pay 2 blood to do 2 more damage. But, to my knowledge there is no comparison where the ratio goes lower than 1:1, and there are plenty where it's higher than that. (I would love to discuss this topic, though, card efficiency and card comparison is really interesting, but I guess that's for another thread.)
So, blood is better than pool. What's the conclusion? Villein should ideally be used so that you run out of blood just as the game ends. That way you get as much defensive capabilites as you can from Villein and you'll not be limited by your blood. Over-villeining is in my experience a bigger detriment than under-villeining.
The first counter-argument to this would likely be "but I will use the pool to transfer out new minions". Excellent idea, the only problem is that it's too slow. By the time you have your 5+ minions the game is already over (by time-out, in my experience). To transform villeins to new minions at a useful pace you need crypt acceleration, but you can't play it if you need to use Lilith's Blessing.
Conclusion
Lilith's Blessing has it's place in some decks. Where you can empty vampires without impeding your deck's normal functioning or where empty vampires is a part of your deck's normal functioning. Where you have less use for oust-masters and more use for blood. Where you can add the benefit of disciplines to the equation and thus tip the scales in Lilith's Blessing's favour. But for most decks, in most situations, Lilith's Blessing is too huge a defensive committal and will gain you less integers of VPs and more fractions of VPs than Life in the City would.
Adam Esbjörnsson,
Prince of Örebro
I love the theory behind the post, but I would like to point out a small point : you don't talk about the fact that Lillith Blessing is card-efficient, since it can "easily" give you 3-6 blood for 1 card, while Life in the City is 1 blood for 1 card.
I know that the automatic refill make VtES not overly dependant on card advantage, but there is still a significant benefit to "only" have to draw one lillith blessing to refill vampire pretty conveniently. It's the same idea that make the perma-rush on Templar or Archon convenient : you don't have to draw multiples Bum Rush (or Nose of the hound) to make your rush, making the whole mechanism more reliable.
In short, Lillith blessing also have the distinct advantage to allow you to put less master blood management card in favor of a smaller deck, or non-master useful cards.
If your deck is built around villen + lilith your are going to need multiple copies to draw it reliably however. Once you've drawn your copy the rest of them become dead cards (which is even worse).
Lidingö Scourge
i have actually seen Multiple master phase decks make use of more than one Lilith's blessing more than once.
It is not unique, so no harm in playing that second, or third copy if you have then in hand and can spare 1 pool to cycle your hand.
I have seen two lilith's blessings tapped during same turn by the same player...
I voted that it needs to be unique several months back when the poll ran. NOw, i am more for banning the stuff. And i was never in favor of banning anything, not even pentex. I do not know about other meta's , but nowadays it seems to me that ALL i see on tables, regardless almost of what is the deck, is villein and Lilith's blessing. And i do think that lilith's blessing is the problem here, not villeins.
Sorry for the rant. Just my 2 cents
> Not if you can cycle them with Anthelios.
>
That's true. On the other hand Villein + lilith as it is eats master phases so you might not have the spare master phase actions to do that. If you do have spare masters you might not have an optimal master package. It's also a huge risk to play anthelios if there's a master reliant deck on the table that will gain a LOT more from it.
Of course, as pendargon pointed out, you might just play the copies if you really need to unclog your hand but that's not a very nice way of using your master phase action.
Lidingö Scourge
> Xaddam wrote:
> It's probably likely you get to use Lilith's Blessing once in a game if you don't cut corners.
>
Sorry my friend, no offense but i just stopped reading at this point since it came clear that you never saw the card in action.
Nice effort though.
Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
> Reyda wrote:
>
> > Xaddam wrote:
> > It's probably likely you get to use Lilith's Blessing once in a game if you don't cut corners.
> >
> Sorry my friend, no offense but i just stopped reading at this point since it came clear that you never saw the card in action.
>
> Nice effort though.
>
Knowing Xaddam's reputation and track record at high level tournaments, I find your response amusing.
excuse me but did I say anything about his tournament achievements ? I think not.
Did I say that he didn't really see the card in action. I think I did.
Thanks for your aknowledgement of this simple fact.
Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
> Reyda wrote:
> excuse me but did I say anything about his tournament achievements ? I think not.
> Did I say that he didn't really see the card in action. I think I did.
>
> Thanks for your aknowledgement of this simple fact.
>
I really don't think this is the case. What I feel is Sweden has the one of the most "competetive" metagame but of course I can't say this as a fact. You have to think also that metagame shifts if Villein (+Lilith) is played a lot. Change of meta game is not necessary a bad thing. You just have to adapt and think what you will face. Just bloating will rarely win and I am glad that more players realize that just sitting on your place won't make you win.
I know Xaddam has a lot of tournament experience. You can just see the huge experience and benefit also for the whole community when listening the podcasts. You seem to play the card "He doesn't have any real tournament experience" to other posters very easily. At least you should have the courage to post what is your experience. If you don't do this I really can't see you as only troll in Vekn forum.
> Surreal wrote:
> You seem to play the card "He doesn't have any real tournament experience" to other posters very easily. At least you should have the courage to post what is your experience. If you don't do this I really can't see you as only troll in Vekn forum.
>
Well, it may be part stockholm syndrom, but as fa as I know he is between average and good player and is far from completely speaking out of his ass.
Still, the argument here is weak, because it forget that a lot of people are cutting corner, conscienly or not, to make use of Lillith, not unlike excessive "freak drive, hunt" to cycle card that I see sometime.
The real question would more be, can we say that blood on a vampire is more useful than pool when you can use the aforementioned pool to bring another vampire and transfert the pool to perfectly useable blood and one additional use of Lillith ? On the long run, pool would almost alway beat blood, while on the short run the calcul of blood powering card being more useful than pool would be pretty true.
> Surreal wrote:
> At least you should have the courage to post what is your experience.
>
Well, if you give a damn, actually I started playing Jyhad since day one and never stopped since. Some of my worst decks are in the twda. And for what it's worth, I made it to the vtes hall of fame, though I avoid to play Tier 1 in tournaments. You can trust me on this one, I know this game Playing a lot (like two game sessions a week), with very competitive players who are abusing on purpose most of the cards, means more chances to see broken things in motion.
> Surreal wrote:
> If you don't do this I really can't see you as only troll in Vekn forum.
>
But you can still consider me as a troll, since I'm always a bit on the trolling side. No offense taken
Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
My biggest problem with Lilith is that it works so good with Villein and it is auto include with some decks. This is a bit obvious. You don't have to focus your deck with Lilith, just add 2x if playing with Villein and your deck is better.
Biggest thing for me is that I don't understand the design behind Lilith. It shouldn't be rewarded to go 0 blood with your vampire, it should be the oppisite. Poor planning should not be rewarded ever. Players shoul always think carefully how much blood to leave. But this is a bit personal issue also because I hate the game play when everyone bloats, blocks and doesn't go foward. Lilith can encourage that and person with best sitting muscles usually wins.
> Reyda wrote:
> Sorry my friend, no offense but i just stopped reading at this point since it came clear that you never saw the card in action.
>
Try reading what he writes and answer why he´s wrong instead of going on like this.
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
> Reyda wrote:
> But you can still consider me as a troll, since I'm always a bit on the trolling side. No offense taken
>
That's cool, didn't ment my post anything personal. It is cool that you get the topics interesting and give good arguments.
> Surreal wrote:
> it is auto include with some decks
>
What card is not an "auto include in some decks"?
But you are right - if your goal is to survive and not oust, you can always find room for Lilith´s. In my meta that doesn´t work that good anymore.
Do these rants about certain cards ever stop? It just seem that someone encounters a deck with a trick that works, and then goes "this is broken, better ban it now or someone else will get hurt". There are actual problems in this game, and Lilith´s blessing is certainly not the worst of them. Not even close.
Lean back, design a deck that can handle the trick snd let your meta evolve (if it ever does?)
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
> Ashur wrote:
> he writes and answer why he´s wrong instead of going on like this.
>
To be honnest, I read everything. But game theories don't always beat the cold hard facts. Those facts being : you can never get wrong including Lilith's blessing in your deck, and with little deckbuilding effort you can abuse it to the point it's changing the game in a bad way.
the only deck where I won't automatically include Lilith would be an Imbued deck
> Surreal wrote:
> My biggest problem with Lilith is that it works so good with Villein and it is auto include with some decks. This is a bit obvious. You don't have to focus your deck with Lilith, just add 2x if playing with Villein and your deck is better.
>
> Biggest thing for me is that I don't understand the design behind Lilith. It shouldn't be rewarded to go 0 blood with your vampire, it should be the oppisite. Poor planning should not be rewarded ever. Players shoul always think carefully how much blood to leave. But this is a bit personal issue also because I hate the game play when everyone bloats, blocks and doesn't go foward. Lilith can encourage that and person with best sitting muscles usually wins.
>
I agree 100% here.
The other problems lilith's amplifiate is overbloat syndrome. So you have kinds of deck who Villein/lillith, influence other vamps, do it again and basically have vamps out for free. And they don't care if they let a VP go in the process because at some point they have massive pool and say "the game will end on a time limit... Why don't we make a deal so you and me get Moar Veepees ?"
I like it when clever play and good deckbuilding is rewarded. Just sitting with tons of pool and splitting VPs because time is running out sounds not so fun...
Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
> Ashur wrote:
> Do these rants about certain cards ever stop?
>
I agree with your whole post. I think meta should evolve and in Vtes it haven't changed so much. But I also think meta in vtes is not so serious thing as in 1vs1 games but that is another topic. My main thing with Lilith is that rewards you to go 0 blood which should not be encouraged. There are always rants about "too strong" cards. I don't think Lilith is too strong, just example of a bad dedign if you ask me.
As Pascal pointed out in another thread : Lilith was designed for a storyline event, and was not made unique so anyone could play it without harming the spirit of this special event.
Most of Storyline cards were not designed for regular play (else everyone would have fun with the nergal deck >=) )
Maybe the card was simply overlooked, or not playtested in real conditions ?
Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
> Ashur wrote:
> Do these rants about certain cards ever stop?
>
Based on these forums, the news group and player discussions, the answer is no, they never stop.
--
National Coordinator
South Africa
> Reyda wrote:
> the only deck where I won't automatically include Lilith would be an Imbued deck
>
Yet none of your tournament winning decks have it if I'm not mistaken ^^, you did say they were not your best though.
Overall I think that Xaddam has explained very well why lilith's blessing isn't too good. I encourage anyone who does pack it in every deck to try without it and instead put in masters meant only to oust and see how it feels.
Lidingö Scourge
> Surreal wrote:
> My main thing with Lilith is that rewards you to go 0 blood which should not be encouraged.
>
Jake Washington does exactly the same, though, and has never been a problem.
> Non-existant user wrote:
>
> > Surreal wrote:
> > My main thing with Lilith is that rewards you to go 0 blood which should not be encouraged.
> >
> Jake Washington does exactly the same, though, and has never been a problem.
>
yeah, but Jake is unique, and burns after you use him. Also, he is useable only in untap phase, so no synergy with blood dolls/ villeins.
Also , he can be stolen, or killed. Lilith's blessing is not even a location. It is Jake on steroids, basically.
> Ashur wrote:
>
> > Reyda wrote:
> > Sorry my friend, no offense but i just stopped reading at this point since it came clear that you never saw the card in action.
> >
> Try reading what he writes and answer why he´s wrong instead of going on like this.
>
Now that the card is banned, the discussion may seem a bit moot, but if I reacted like this, it's because I read Xaddam's claim that most of the time Lilith will probably be used once. (and hence will generate 3 blood/pool)
Sorry if I sounded like a prick but what I see is so different. Hence the " you clearly never saw the card in action".
By "see the card in action" I really meant, the card being abused : most of the time it I saw it, it has generated 6 to 12 pool by just sitting there, ready to be tapped whenever you need it.
I can recall at least one tournament where I was playing Ahrimane wall / Smiling Jack. Both preys had Lilith in play and they managed to survive 2 whole turns against a 4 then 5 pointer smiling jack without spending a single pool. And the vampires did not have to hunt until very late in the game.
As I said earlier, I never tried to play a "you don't know this game" card on Xaddam, but his theory that Lilith is ok since it will generate 3 pool seemed like he never saw it in action. It's a bit annoying to justify everything ( but that's what I'm doing here) but I want to highlight the fact that dismissing an argument is NOT the same as dismissing a player. I know also some poor players which have very insightful opinions on a given game, so the opposite must also be true, especially when we are talking about a single card in a pool of hundreds.
Well I am done, feel free to throw well aimed cars in my general direction
Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
> Shard wrote:
> Put this card in play. As your first master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and becomes Bahari.
>
Wedge, this is the first thing I thought of too. It does away with the villein combo and it limits using it multiple times in one turn. I suspect Pascal and the playtesters have already thought of this. If they haven't, then let it be known we have the answer.
Good, LB is banned already. Let's be mindful not to let such problems repeat.
Three seems like the happy "blood on a minion" median to keep it safe and optimally productive as "bleed for three" is the happy bleed median.
There's enough Life in the City and The Coven that you'd think Lilith's Blessing would have not raised eyebrows. However there seems to be enough stress out there in games (from I guess gun/Lid combat, S:CE blood costs, bounce costs, etc.) that three seems just about right to press the advantage without as heavy risk. And in that respect, like a sort of saddle point, it's like how bleeds for three tend to work as a "safe bleed max," not leaving you open to AI, not
tossing too heavy a swing in the face of bounce-castles, not garnering high upstream or cross-table aggression... three as a seemingly acceptable threat threshold.
Do the better players routinely play it safe? No. But maxing out the speed upon which less risk-taking players can ride that comfortable thin line seems like a terrible design decision. There should be a cost to risky and cautious behavior. That thin line is useful in the way player skill can cross back and forth into the hazardous terrain of "too risky" and "too cautious." Keep that tension; don't discard it for convenience.
As a side comment:
If Villein remains a problem, limit its pool recursion to 5th Tradition and Entrenching levels of gain. Cap the pool recursion to 5 max. Open-ended effects naturally have huge swing potential. As a game of small effects, big swing effects should have higher cost thresholds; Villein might still be too ideal. And I wholly support the same sort of limits to Voter Captivation...
> Ohlmann wrote:
> To be honest, multiple MPA cards are more the source of the problem than Lillith herself. Without MPA, it's powerful but problematics
>
Reyda's necro-ing of the thread made me read this again, and with a possible POD change, made me think of:
...While you control Lilith's Blessing, you can spend only one master phase action during your master phase.
Which is probably way over the top, but amuses me.