The Night is Young
Master
Untap a minion.
Usable for:
-Responsible bleeding (untap grand prey)
-Cross-table help
-Untap your infernal vampire
-Untap a minion that has been locked-down (i.e. Sensory Deprivation, Vampiric Disease, Derange, etc)
-Create a target for Spirit Marionette (Although I consider this one of the most annoying cards in the game)
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
-Friedrich Nietzsche
brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/
Interesting!
First: I love the amount of text on the card. This should be an ideal for all card design
Second: You might add some kind of clause that enables a non-willing methuselah to pay/do something to avoid his/her minion being untapped.
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
Well, I believe it's well too narrow for non-abusive use. For infernal, Transcendance do the same with more polyvalence usually ; for cross-table help and unlocking, it's really too narrow ; and it may open abuses, such as the spirit marionet one (so, there is no way to avoid losing every blood on my inner circle now ?), and maybe with vampire that can tap for effect during the master phase (can't think of one broken, but it may happen).
In short, the design is good, but the card would be the donate of vtes : usually garbage and sometime stupid combo-enabler.
It would allow you to trash someone else's Anima Gathering but without allowing any real choice on the part of the other player.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
Ok, how about:
The Night is Young
Master
Untap a minion. That minion's controller may cancel this card by burning one pool.
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
-Friedrich Nietzsche
brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/
> brandonsantacruz wrote:
> Ok, how about:
>
> The Night is Young
> Master
> Untap a minion. That minion's controller may cancel this card by burning one pool.
>
It should be trifle then. Or untap up to two minions.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
How about
The Night is Young
Master
Untap a minion. That minion's controller may choose to cancel this card, if he/she does so that minion does not untap as normal during his/her next untap phase.
(Yes, too much text and can probably be stated better, but you get the point)
In that case, you can prevent your IC from getting all his blood stolen, but then your IC is "mind numbed" thus not making your master phase action wasted.
Well, the original idea was to be something helpful, not something detrimental .
Given that I believe the helpful part is too costly even on a trifle, I would put this as a vampire special, something like that :
Tzimisce bob
cap 6
Once per game, during your master phase, target a vampire. Its controller can untap him.
So you have the cool idea of cross table help, not any dirty combo, and not for too much of a cost.
I don't like it being a master. Too much competition. However, I appreciate the succinct clarity of the original version.
However, outside of Precognizant Mobility, there aren't that many cards that untap another minion, which includes allies or older vampires. Perhaps that might be angle you may want to explore.
Here's an odd one, have you considered making it an Event? The name, "The Night is Young" really does lend itself to such treatment. You could even make something crazy where cross table weirdness can trigger...
The Night is Young
Event
During your turn you may choose a minion. You must receive permission to target when targeting another methuselah's minion. Untap that minion.
There, clean, usable crosstable, doesn't forcibly negate specialized tapping (Anima Gathering, etc), usable before, during, or after a minion phase, etc.
> Azel wrote:
> There, clean, usable crosstable, doesn't forcibly negate specialized tapping (Anima Gathering, etc), usable before, during, or after a minion phase, etc.
>
And present in at least x1 in each and every conceivable deck, also. The original idea was specifically done to not allow multiacting
(because multi acting for a discard action phase is extremely cheap, and even if you don't need it you can deny it by playing the event)
> brandonsantacruz wrote:
> The Night is Young
> Master
> Untap a minion.
> This minion cannot act this turn.
>
> Usable for:
> -Responsible bleeding (untap grand prey) check
> -Cross-table help check
> -Untap your infernal vampire
> -Untap a minion that has been locked-down (i.e. Sensory Deprivation, Vampiric Disease, Derange, etc) check
> -Create a target for Spirit Marionette (Although I consider this one of the most annoying cards in the game) potential annoyance avoided
>
fixed.
Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
> Reyda wrote:
> fixed.
>
I am not sure. Could you explain me how this would prevent from playing Spirit Marionet ? You wouldn't bleed with the guy, sure, but you can still steal all of his blood. In the same idea, this would still destroy an anima gathering.
Also, it would not prevent the card from being an extremely technical tool (to play with card like anima gathering and co), which is certainly not the intent.
I find Reyda's fix smooth. Still undecided about the actual usefulness of the card itself though, it might need to be a trifle to be somewhat playable.
The complaints about anima gathering and spirit marionette are, in my opinion, very corner case. There's already cards that untap without any chance of preventing it (babble). Also loads of actions that do the same. If your minion can't block for example Eurayles' special, mylan, precognizant mobility and so on, then they probably can't block the spirit marionette neither.
Lidingö Scourge
> Louhi wrote:
> I find Reyda's fix smooth. Still undecided about the actual usefulness of the card itself though, it might need to be a trifle to be somewhat playable.
>
> The complaints about anima gathering and spirit marionette are, in my opinion, very corner case.
>
Then, in what way the Reyda fix is useful ?
> Louhi wrote:
> There's already cards that untap without any chance of preventing it (babble).
>
But you can't play it during your turn, and dementation + Obeah is not too easy to mix.
> Louhi wrote:
> Also loads of actions that do the same. If your minion can't block for example Eurayles' special, mylan, precognizant mobility and so on, then they probably can't block the spirit marionette neither.
>
But then, it's way more expensive to do than with "just" a MPA, since it's an action (alway expensive, you rarely have a "free" mylan or vampire with that have nothing to do). Also, you need to make two action throught. Spirit marionet often pass because of Obeah stealth and Neutral guard, which need to be done two time here.
ANd lastly, if the card is only useful for gamey interaction with Anima gathering and Spirit marionet, why print it at all ? Do VtES need ultra technical card that enable uninteractive gameplay ?
> Then, in what way the Reyda fix is useful ?
>
He basically attached a checklist with the things it would fix. I found that list to be true.
The babble mention was mainly about destroying anima gathering without a chance to block. I don't think it cuts it if you are playing spirit marionette however.
> But then, it's way more expensive to do than with "just" a MPA, since it's an action (alway expensive, you rarely have a "free" mylan or vampire with that have nothing to do). Also, you need to make two action throught. Spirit marionet often pass because of Obeah stealth and Neutral guard, which need to be done two time here.
>
This I actually straight up disagree with. One of the most common ways to use spirit marionette is to mix it with !Ven or something similar. That gives you access to both AUS and FOR. Most of those decks (should) also include mylan. The master phase action is a lot more expensive, but that could be personal opinion. Repulsion is also one time played so you don't really need to play it twice. Neutral guard is more or less only for Saulot. He also needs to play the wakes so it's not like both players aren't using resources (and I find the MPA to be a more valuable resource).
The cards intent was to be a cross buddy helper, not something ultra technical.
Lidingö Scourge
> Ohlmann wrote:
>
> > Reyda wrote:
> > fixed.
> >
> I am not sure. Could you explain me how this would prevent from playing Spirit Marionet ? You wouldn't bleed with the guy, sure, but you can still steal all of his blood.
>
I don't care : At least my vamp will not be sucked dry then bleed me for 5 / daring the dawn like most serious marionette deck do.
> Ohlmann wrote:
> In the same idea, this would still destroy an anima gathering.
>
Ooh first world problem
> Ohlmann wrote:
>
> But you can't play it during your turn, and dementation + Obeah is not too easy to mix.
>
simple answer, that doesn't require to be a genius : you play babble during your predator's turn, on any action, to untap your prey's minion you intend to target.
Obeah + any discipline is not too easy to mix, mind you. And there's a reason for that...
But oh, look i almost forgot this :
Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
> Ohlmann wrote:
> Do VtES need ultra technical card that enable uninteractive gameplay ?
>
How is this "uninteractive gameplay"? You can untap your allied players vamp.
I don´t this the card as written (or even with Reydas fix) is good enough to fit in a Spirit Marionette deck unless you play MMPA:s. And you probably don´t.
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
@Louhi : well, I believe the checklist contain nothing. The only point it "help" is spirit marionet, and it does very, very few (in addition to the shole problem that it allow you to keep the vampire at the end of the turn, but the intent was not that kind of abuse, I can give him that). Also, for cross table help, it's extremely minor.
> Reyda wrote:
> oh, i almost forgot this
>
You also forgot that she can't play Babble to untap people. Nice try. Like the rest of the post. Basically, it's way more complicated and failure-prone than playing a master.
> Ashur wrote:
> How is this "uninteractive gameplay"? You can untap your allied players vamp.
>
Seriously, can you say with a straight face that you want to play this card to help cross table people, while it's too weak to be played in spirit marionet ? The cross table help is anecdotal at best for the price, and more polyvalent card like Mylan
> Ashur wrote:
> I don´t this the card as written (or even with Reydas fix) is good enough to fit in a Spirit Marionette deck unless you play MMPA:s. And you probably don´t.
>
But it still its better use that anyone have come out with. If the better use someone can come out for a card is to annoyingly and interactionlessly undo your effort, it may be the sign that the card should not exist.
> Reyda wrote:
> Maybe, genius, because you are going to use her sidekicks to untap the target ... ? Didn't struck your mind even for a second ?
>
Since you can do with any vampire, why bringing here on the table ? Tips : I have seen some spirit marionet deck playing dominate card.
> Reyda wrote:
> Play some more games, gain some knowledge, and then we can talk, ok ?
>
So, because you have no argument, you use ad hominem attack ? It show how witty you are
(and it does not respond to the main problem, I.E. the fact that the card is still only barely useable as cross table and have more potential for unintuitive shit like spirit marionet than what the "simple and sleek" design was supposed to do)
@Ohlmann and Reyda
I think that the flame war can move to another thread or, better yet, end right here.
Back to the card:
The cost of an MPA is something to consider when looking at a Spirit Marionette deck, it's true. All Salubri decks I've seen have a hard time doing anything other than surviving. If all people want to do is blow up others' minions, they will generate table hate and (hopefully) get ganged-up on. There is already a good way to deal with any master card that you don't like: sudden reversal.
So does this card as originally written break the Spirit Marionette archetype? Probably not. You'd need to do play testing to know for sure (as much as you can "know" such a thing in this game). As for Anima Gathering, I've seen it in constructed play exactly zero times. It's not a very strong card in most cases, and probably not worth worrying about.
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
-Friedrich Nietzsche
brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/
> brandonsantacruz wrote:
> Ok, how about:
>
> The Night is Young
> Master
> Untap a minion. That minion's controller may cancel this card by burning one pool.
>
This is the best version. If you wanted to make it slightly better, it could be a master out-of-turn like Special Report but without the force block or +1 intercept options.
When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
> Jeff wrote:
>
> > brandonsantacruz wrote:
> > Ok, how about:
> >
> > The Night is Young
> > Master
> > Untap a minion. That minion's controller may cancel this card by burning one pool.
> >
> This is the best version. If you wanted to make it slightly better, it could be a master out-of-turn like Special Report but without the force block or +1 intercept options.
>
I'd still be very concerned as to whether anyone would put it in a deck.
Now, in draft, it could easily be an interesting choice. You have the card, you have a limited set of choices, you probably don't have a stack of power-cards competing with it. Totally decent card.
Up against me thinking about a few copies of Villein, Dreams of the Sphinx, Palla Grande, Power Structure, intercept locations, Ecoterrorists (and friends), Wash, Sudden Reversal etc. - I'm not sure it makes the cut in all that many situations.
And while it could certainly be a good card in the right situation, it's not going to be great when you draw it in your opening hand and no-one is really doing anything for several turns. In a frenetic end game when everyone is grinding down pool? Totally cool. When my grand-prey has no vampires (first few turns) or lots of vampires with lots of blood and resources? Not so useful.
If it was something like:
Untap a minion; their controller may cancel this card by burning one pool.
Alternatively, move two blood from the Blood Bank to a vampire; any Methuselah may cancel this card by burning one pool.
...then maybe I could see it making the cut.
What about short-leash bleed? Untap your grand prey before bleeding for 5, have an intercept location and/or change of target to reduce the pressure on them when you are inevitably bleeding them. I could see Giovanni and Followers of Set making good use of a card like this. Is it better than Pentex? Hardly, but it is something else that doesn't cost two pool and helps cycle out those bounce cards and potentially wakes with them.
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
-Friedrich Nietzsche
brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/
> brandonsantacruz wrote:
> What about short-leash bleed? Untap your grand prey before bleeding for 5, have an intercept location and/or change of target to reduce the pressure on them when you are inevitably bleeding them. I could see Giovanni and Followers of Set making good use of a card like this.
>
Giovanni power-bleed might conceivably be interested in it for a responsible bleed angle, but the Followers of Set have a better option in Spying Mission - have the bleed succeed, then wipe it out and store up some +bleed for when your grand-prey is your prey.
For the Giovanni, if the grand-prey can declare any sort of block (i.e. at least one minion is untapped - this card could be upping that to two, or from two to three etc.), Tangle Atropos' Hand is potentially more useful for responsible power-bleed. It cancels the action, thus escaping the No Repeat taint, thus allowing you to bleed again. Relatively hard to get hold of, though, and possibly sitting in your Lasombra stealth-bleed deck anyhow.
There's also the school of thought that says "If you're going to bleed irresponsibly, be as irresponsible as you can."
> If it was something like:
> Untap a minion; their controller may cancel this card by burning one pool.
> Alternatively, move two blood from the Blood Bank to a vampire; any Methuselah may cancel this card by burning one pool.
>
Svadharma, Master, Ravnos
Master. Move 2 blood from the blood bank to a ready Ravnos.
so your "move two blood" makes this card even more useless.
--
I'll try to think about Event type variant:
The Night is Young
Event
Every methuselah may use master phase action as out-of-turn master to untap a minion he/she controls. If he/she does so, his/her hand side is reduced by 1 until the end of turn.
Burn this event if a Gehenna is played.
* variation: make it usable during your turn.
> jAvel wrote:
>
> > If it was something like:
> > Untap a minion; their controller may cancel this card by burning one pool.
> > Alternatively, move two blood from the Blood Bank to a vampire; any Methuselah may cancel this card by burning one pool.
> >
> Svadharma, Master, Ravnos
> Master. Move 2 blood from the blood bank to a ready Ravnos.
>
> so your "move two blood" makes this card even more useless.
>
Underpowered cards that don't get played don't - and certainly shouldn't - block off other cards being better than them. That's just an avenue for design hell - you make a mistake 6 years ago and can never ever do anything better in that arena, ever, for fear of making an underpowered card even more useless.
Svadharma also doesn't allow other Methuselahs to screw with you, mind.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> If it was something like:
> Untap a minion; their controller may cancel this card by burning one pool.
> Alternatively, move two blood from the Blood Bank to a vampire; any Methuselah may cancel this card by burning one pool.
> ...then maybe I could see it making the cut.
>
I love this version which solve my concern about the card. For the alternate use, I would limit the cancelling to the prey, in the hope to create interaction between your prey and your predator.