Preference for main theme of a first new set

A bit more detail: Option 1) Create a new theme which does not exist at all or is only supported by a single card (i.e Bahari). Introduce one or more new keywords. Option 2) Fill holes in crypt and make clans/discipline combos viable. Look at existing mechanics that probably need help, i.e Trophies, Anarchs, Black Hand. Remember, we are talking about MAIN theme, the primary focus of the set. Of course there can be secondary themes.

The bloodlines might not need new library cards, but it would be good to make their group 6 playable.

> Non-existant user wrote: > The bloodlines might not need new library cards, but it would be good to make their group 6 playable. > Well, they mainly need gr 5 vampire to be viable number-wise. Some are already playable, if somehow suboptimal, like !Salubri, kyasid or true brujah. However, I do agree that gargoyle are about unplayable

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > Non-existant user wrote: > > The bloodlines might not need new library cards, but it would be good to make their group 6 playable. > > > Well, they mainly need gr 5 vampire to be viable number-wise. Some are already playable, if somehow suboptimal, like !Salubri, kyasid or true brujah. However, I do agree that gargoyle are about unplayable > Bloodline G5 is full (1 per clan). G6 has some space. www.secretlibrary.info/?checklist=groups Jussi Hattara Webmaster Extraordinaire Finnish Politics!

> jhattara wrote: > Bloodline G5 is full (1 per clan). G6 has some space, 2 per clan mostly. > Not gr5 bloodline vampire. gr5 non-bloodline that can help fill the crypt. For example, all the 3 auspex / fortitude bloodline have the problem of not having any worthwhile gr5 !ventrue for support, like Neighbor John have been. In the same idea, Scout Youngwood would be way better if they were more titled gr5 vampire in obf / pre.

Sabbat/Black Hand g5. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> johannes wrote: > Remember, we are talking about MAIN theme, the primary focus of the set. Of course there can be secondary themes. > You are not talking about the set currently under playtest, right? Because I gather it would be rather late to exercise changes of that magnitude.

> Brum wrote: > > > johannes wrote: > > Remember, we are talking about MAIN theme, the primary focus of the set. Of course there can be secondary themes. > > > You are not talking about the set currently under playtest, right? > Because I gather it would be rather late to exercise changes of that magnitude. > I am not talking about a specific set or changing anything. Just wanted to have an overview.

> Brum wrote: > You are not talking about the set currently under playtest, right? > Because I gather it would be rather late to exercise changes of that magnitude. > I am wondering that too. Seems like way too late to think about theme during second round of play testing. All this drama about everything is super confusing. But if the poll is more about coming sets in general then I would like to see plug existing holes. There so many existing themes that could use stuff (corruption, contracts, imbued, sabbat, some discplines etc.)

The theme should be: "Get new folks trying the game with free, downloadable print-and-play cards" You could make them Sabbat Gp5 if you wanted. I think that a set of cards that included at least one playable deck that could be printed out from scratch, understood by a new player and played in a club game without getting obviously nuked would be an asset to the in getting new people playing it and moving some of the existing stocks of cards. A poll like this, posted here though, is going to get you the voice of the hardcore players that are likely to use whatever cards get printed, which is great but might not be the best long-term view. What the theme definitely shouldn't be: "Masses of impenetrable card text with keywords and abilities that are very difficult for new players to understand that are obviously useful only to seasoned players." Any expansion set should be asked the question: How does this appeal to new players? If the answer is that it doesn't, you have to question if it's worth releasing. Don't you...? It is better to fail in originality than to succeed in imitation. -Herman Melville

What about a "booster pack" of 11 new cards that you print out and add to a preconstructed starter deck? You may print multiple copies of some of the cards and there would be instruction on how many to use and what to take out of the pre-con to make the new deck. Would that fit your idea? David Tatu V:EKN Scribe

> david.tatu wrote: > What about a "booster pack" of 11 new cards that you print out and add to a preconstructed starter deck? You may print multiple copies of some of the cards and there would be instruction on how many to use and what to take out of the pre-con to make the new deck. Would that fit your idea? > Now there's an interesting idea! If you made it a bigger "pack" you could include potential "switch lists" to create easy-to-understand and competitive decks from a variety of different more easily available pre-cons. It gets new players involved and sells through the pre-con decks that the hardcore players are less interested in. I can't see many downsides. Great idea. It is better to fail in originality than to succeed in imitation. -Herman Melville

That's interesting and gets around any 'print this card that actually exists as a real card' issues. I guess KOT and 3rd starters would be a good place to work on?

> Surreal wrote: > I am wondering that too. Seems like way too late to think about theme during second round of play testing. All this drama about everything is super confusing. > Well, it seem transparent that the poll is somehow linked to the whole debacle thing over the team. But, if they deliver a good set, regardless of how late or how many hoops they go throught, why would we care about that ?

I was thinking all this time that these cards were being developed/tested that the theme was supposed to be Group 5 Sabbat/fleshing out underdeveloped concepts.

> GreenO wrote: > What the theme definitely shouldn't be: > "Masses of impenetrable card text with keywords and abilities that are very difficult for new players to understand that are obviously useful only to seasoned players." > > Any expansion set should be asked the question: How does this appeal to new players? If the answer is that it doesn't, you have to question if it's worth releasing. Don't you...? > I'm not sure if I have an answer to this poll since I don't see any need for new cards. For many years, I wanted sets to come out more often being used to the release schedule of CCGs that needed regular influxes of new cards to prevent the games from becoming stale. And, there are plenty of mechanics in the game that can be created or developed. As an example, again, I have a hard time understanding why it's so important to create yet more Sabbat vampires when Laibon vampires are more important to the game's variety, but whatever. But, I just don't care about fan sets. I was on the design team for a CCG set that never got published that one of the other designers turned into his own set after the game stopped being published. I don't feel any animosity towards his effort; I simply don't care. I've never made any effort to use any of the cards. I'm not going to pitch a fit if my opponents decide to play with the cards (I might even have stories for them about particular cards), but I don't know that I would go to the effort of using them myself. Or, maybe it's just that I don't care about more cards for games that have massive card pools and that have become ludicrously complicated. I quoted Matt's remarks because I really have no patience anymore for the idea that densely worded cards are a good thing. Any single card can be as verbose and complicated as Magic's Ice Cauldron. But, with every additional card, you get an exponential complicating effect in a CCG. The harder the card is to process, the greater in magnitude of that effect. As for capturing flavor, flavor can be captured in a lot of ways, not just the 7 lines of text way. Veteran players can keep dealing (up to a point). But, to Matt's point, the single most important thing with a game is new players. WotC's greatest fear with Magic is not acquiring new players - they say so themselves - because they know that you get just get by on retention. It may seem like V:TES gets by on retention, but I don't think that's truly the case. The people I play with most have only been playing 3-4 years, and we are having a hard time making numbers for regular play. On the other hand, again referring to Matt's comments, I don't know that fan sets need to be newb friendly or the way to sell people on the game. I'd be more inclined to establish clean, simple online play to draw in new players. And, I'd be inclined to simplify the existing game, removing the mechanics that just don't carry their weight - scarce, sterile, blood curse, red list, trophy, research area, and probably a few others. Cleaning up what already exists will annoy some, but it always amazes me when someone new decides to get into this game; there's just so much baggage. Traveller Card Game

I guess we're talking about the set currently designed. The Sabbat theme sounded great so I vote for it (as option 3). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Lambach wrote: > I was thinking all this time that these cards were being developed/tested that the theme was supposed to be Group 5 Sabbat/fleshing out underdeveloped concepts. > There was a pretty serious paradigm shift between R1 and R2. R1 contained a new concept but it was dropped for R2 (upon the feedback of the playtesters). I just wanted to confirm with the community that this is really what most of us want, but it certainly seems that way. So all rest assured, development is on track and in line with what the community wants.

"Plug existing holes and enable nonviable concepts" Easy choice as this is what I've been asking for ages. Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > "Plug existing holes and enable nonviable concepts" > > Easy choice as this is what I've been asking for ages. > Same. There are lots of cards that are underpowered but interesting and fixable, or overpowered but fixable (give us something nasty vs "Bahari" keyword, please! ). A small set to provide those would be awesome.

I'm all for new concepts with a few catches: - It needs to be a complete idea which is viable for serious use (this set should basically create a new Tier 1 Type based on the new concept) - It shouldn't be needlessly complicating to VTES (i.e. I don't think VTES needs the wide variety of almost indistinguishable Sabbat 'ranks' or 'roles' throughout its crypt and library cards) But I'm always happy to see the gaps get plugged in smart, out-of-the-usual-square ways. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

I cannot comprehend the logic that says the game's first priority should be to make itself yet more complex with more keywords, more mechanics, and more fiddliness. Why is this option even on the poll? The game has two problems: 1) There are a variety of areas that are under-powered, under-utilised and just a bit crappy, and which are begging for improvements. This can range from mechanics (Red List and Trophy are quite lack-luster), through to deck types (e.g. non-Camarilla voting), and down to specific clans (e.g. !Nosferatu, !Gangrel, Samedi). 2) Attracting new players. V:TES has long put off players by being perceived as fiddly, complex and cumbersome. (And there are more than a few points where that's probably right - certainly, advances in games mean you wouldn't necessarily create it in the same way. Not just for internal mistakes, but because externally other games have done things better.) The last thing that V:TES needs to do is to present itself as showing that its priorities are creating yet more cumbersome corner-case rules that will only turn up one game in 20. (i.e. when your opponent brings a Lasombra Antitribu pirate deck to the game - Aquatic minions take one less damage from each source, unless the source is also Aquatic. Oh, and non-Jetski vehicles cost Aquatic minions an additional pool.) And if you're looking to recruit lapsed players (rather than necessarily brand new players - either or both is fine), handing over a tome of new rules they have to learn? Not so great. Telling them that their crappy Setite vote deck that always looked weak and floppy and lifeless next to a Parity Shift deck has been made +2 fun and +3 awesome? Totally a good way of encouraging them to play. Find ten spaces in that deck and add 2 of this new master, three of this new action modifier and these five votes? Awesome. Can you address all that at once? Obviously no. Or at least, it would be bad. So my priorities in terms of areas to address would be (alluded to above): - A fuller set of Sabbat vampires for the most recent groupings - Better voting options for non-Camarilla vampires (Sabbat, but not only Sabbat). Perhaps that's better votes that stand toe-to-toe with Parity Shift, or perhaps it's ancillary tech that gives you lucrative benefits for passing existing votes ("Tap Floppy's Golfing Umbrella when a referendum you called is successful and deals damage to your prey. Something AWESOME happens to all of my Setites."), or perhaps it's something else entirely. - Make Red List better. - Make some of the Bloodlines better. - Low priority: Possibly make Black Hand a little more flashy (without necessarily making it more powerful). And when picking from the options, work in a way that will be good for new or existing players. GreenO's suggestion of a set where a subset could be printed to make one playable deck is a good aim. (A PDF with one of every card for normal distribution would be fine, then a PDF with the whole deck in it.) It's a little awkward (can we reprint Villein? if not, do we include a replacement? if not, do we say that Blood Dolls are common as anything so people can pick them up?), but it's a great aim. One thing to avoid. Do not use multiple cards in the set to 'fix' currently problematic cards. The last thing new or returning players want is a pile of cards that are designed to hose Lilith's Blessing and Ashur's Tablets and every other card that riles us up. A really solid card that just happened, by-the-by, to do something that made a 'problem' card less attractive? Maybe okay. Fiddly cards that are clearly gunning for something else? No.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > A really solid card that just happened, by-the-by, to do something that made a 'problem' card less attractive? Maybe okay. > I agree to just about everything you write here, but I want to stress this part. I think the multiple master phase action-decks are getting a bit too dominant, and I think a couple of smartly designed cards could solve this, without them being too much of "silver bullets". (Example: Scourge of the Enochians is a ugly, brute, boring hoser versus breed-decks, but Erciyes Fragments is a nice card that hoses recursion but is decent also when you are not having a recursion-deck as prey.) "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."