Stepping down from the Design Team

Dear V:EKN Inner Circle: With a certain amount of sadness, we are submitting this jointly written letter. Although our time working on the V:EKN Design Team has been, on the whole, meaningful and productive, for quite a while now we have become less and less satisfied with the situation. The loss of direction of the project, some team members with whom we work, and the new targets and the methods of accomplishing goals make it increasingly difficult for us to feel our contributions are appreciated. This concern has been especially highlighted by recent communications with some members of the Inner Circle. Despite our repeated attempts to establish common ground, it has become clear that there are insurmountable differences between most of the Inner Circle and the remaining Design Team on one side and us on the other. As a consequence, we are resigning from the V:EKN Design Team, effective immediately. This decision was not taken lightly and we believe this is the best solution for all parties involved. The rest of the Inner Circle seems to have complete confidence in the Design Team Leader. Therefore, we are removing ourselves and our cards, so that the Design Team Leader has ample opportunity to develop his own creative ideas. The cards we have designed are not to be used by the V:EKN Design Team. Since the creative content for Round 1 originated from our work (including Jeff Kuta’s), and had no significant contributions from the remaining Design Team members, we insist that the Design Team refrains from further playtest of such cards and from including them in the upcoming set without our explicit permission. This creative content includes all of the cards from Round 1, with one exception, and any other ideas that we initiated and explored. At this time, the V:EKN does have permission to continue work on the six storyline reward cards. We also want to respect and acknowledge the creative efforts of the volunteer artists, so special consideration may likely be given to the handful of cards with already commissioned artwork. We are only resigning from the Design Team. Carl intends to continue his responsibilities as Austrian National Coordinator. Eric plans to stay as the Inner Circle Storyline Coordinator, especially to help shepherd the storyline reward cards through the remainder of the process. We both are committed to continuing to serve the V:TES player base. Sincerely, Carl Pilhatsch and Eric Chiang pckvtes.wordpress.com

I fully endorse this letter of resignation from the Design Team. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

Hi, 1. Why post here so publicly? The names and constitution of the Design Team are (rightfully so) considered secret. Shouldn't that continue even after they leave? 2. Why forbid the use of cards you have designed? It only reflects negatively on you. I say this because I have dealt with one of you (Eric) and I have nothing but good things to say about you as a player and a fan of the game. Therefore I find it odd that you would do something that might be perceived as petty. 3. Each night, before going to bed, should I look to see if there's a Ben Peal under my bed? I don't want to make light of the situation, but I can see the flame war this will raise. You obviously can too. Tiago PS: I hope this time there hasn't been a post on BGG.

> Brum wrote: > Hi, > PS: I hope this time there hasn't been a post on BGG. > I don't get your point. www.facebook.com/groups/vtes.belgium/

> Brum wrote: > > 2. Why forbid the use of cards you have designed? It only reflects negatively on you. I say this because I have dealt with one of you (Eric) and I have nothing but good things to say about you as a player and a fan of the game. > Therefore I find it odd that you would do something that might be perceived as petty. > that's exactly what sprung to my mind when i read this. I mean, the job is done, the playtest is going on, there is no money or financial reward at stake... I don't understand :/ > Brum wrote: > 3. Each night, before going to bed, should I look to see if there's a Ben Peal under my bed? > I thought every v:tes player already did ... Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

It seems that there is some serious dysfunction in the upper stratum of the EKN. I really hope with the rate at which they are alienating design team members, there is a serious reappraisal of the situation. Instead of attacking the posters for their choice of speaking platform, can we at least try to engage the issues raised? Baron of Berkeley

> Amenophobis wrote: > We both are committed to continuing to serve the V:TES player base. > You are welcome at our tournament in Brussels this sunday. It's the Belgian National Championship, and it's going to be awesome. www.facebook.com/groups/vtes.belgium/

> Count wrote: > It seems that there is some serious dysfunction in the upper stratum of the EKN. I really hope with the rate at which they are alienating design team members, there is a serious reappraisal of the situation. > I would narrow this to serious interpersonal problems. The fact that they want theirs cards ideas to be removed seem to point to ego problem. Hard to tell which and in which manner, still.

> Count wrote: > It seems that there is some serious dysfunction in the upper stratum of the EKN. I really hope with the rate at which they are alienating design team members, there is a serious reappraisal of the situation. > No, there was a serious dysfunction in the design team. Since the remaining people from one of the alienated groups decided to step down that problem is now solved. If by "upper stratum" you refer to "Inner Circle", all is swell there, no major disagreements. It is a bitter experience that we as a player organization were not able to reconcile those differences but it is a reality. We are now looking forward and I can only assure you the development of the new set is still on track.

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > Count wrote: > > It seems that there is some serious dysfunction in the upper stratum of the EKN. I really hope with the rate at which they are alienating design team members, there is a serious reappraisal of the situation. > > > I would narrow this to serious interpersonal problems. The fact that they want theirs cards ideas to be removed seem to point to ego problem. Hard to tell which and in which manner, still. > i wouldn't narrow it down *that* easily. i think the problems at the top need addressing ASAP or else the combination of unnecessary secrecy and ill-boding rumours and resignations could do major damage to the authority of the Inner Circle (since it appears their loyalty base is crumbling fast). i know Eric Chiang and must say his love for the game is indeed huge and profound. A decision to step down from the team isn't taken lightly by him, i'm sure.

> porphyrion wrote: > I think the problems at the top need addressing ASAP or else the combination of unnecessary secrecy and ill-boding rumours and resignations could do major damage to the authority of the Inner Circle (since it appears their loyalty base is crumbling fast). > Then again, they *may* be already addressed at least in the upper strates. I would not praise the communication strategy of the VEKN, because of the aforementioned ill-binding rumors, but I'd prefer to wait for the result before lynching the inner circle. Please note that one of the people that resigned here keep its seat in the inner circle ; I suppose it mean that they don't believe the VEKN to be too corrupted. For the expansion, there is three outcome possible for me : * the set is launched and is well-liked. I would conclude that the Inner curcle is bad at communication but know how to do stuff. * the set is aborted. I would conclude that the inner circle wasn't skillfull enough to suceed at this project, but know when to quit. * the set is launched and is considered as bad and ill-conceived. Then I would begin to either ignore the VEKN or petition for leadership replacement in the inner circle.

I may be assuming, but it seems to me that the rift in the DT started from the beginning. In Kutas original post he stated that he and two other designers made up ~97% of the posts regarding new cards and or direction of the set. I do not know why this was so, nor why the interim DT leader did not strive to inspire more input from the other members (if in fact he did not). I assume these two were the remaining members of that triumvirate. I cannot say that I am sorry(as I have no real info to form an opinion), other than that I now know that two more have left. As for harping on the Volunteers in the IC, unless you are going to put up, shut up. We in the general VTES community do not have enough info to form a meaningful opinion.

So, if the cards from round 1 is forbidden, then how much delay the new expansion will suffer...?

> Johannes wrote: > We are now looking forward and I can only assure you the development of the new set is still on track. > Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

> Count wrote: > It seems that there is some serious dysfunction in the upper stratum of the EKN. I really hope with the rate at which they are alienating design team members, there is a serious reappraisal of the situation. > You forgot the alternative: Some, or all, of the three persons who resigned are just crazy persons. Since we aren't privy to the communications involved between everyone in question, we will likely never know. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> porphyrion wrote: > i think the problems at the top need addressing ASAP or else the combination of unnecessary secrecy and ill-boding rumours and resignations could do major damage to the authority of the Inner Circle (since it appears their loyalty base is crumbling fast). > "problems at the top" "unnecessary secrecy" "ill-boding rumours" Do you have any evidence to support these accusations? Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> KevinM wrote: > You forgot the alternative: Some, or all, of the three persons who resigned are just crazy persons. > Yes, or maybe they were shape-shifting Skrulls who infiltrated the team only to destroy it from within and we are fortunate they were recalled to their homeworld before they could do more harm. Sabbat. Animals, Wraiths and Zombies Molloy recruits or employs get an additional life.

> Molloy wrote: > > > KevinM wrote: > > You forgot the alternative: Some, or all, of the three persons who resigned are just crazy persons. > > > Yes, or maybe they were shape-shifting Skrulls who infiltrated the team only to destroy it from within and we are fortunate they were recalled to their homeworld before they could do more harm. > Do you have anything intelligent to say? Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

He did. It was sarcasm. And it was directed at you. Go forth and have at it.

Dear V:TES Community, We are aware of the concerns that have been expressed so far and want to reassure the players it was never our intent to withhold our cards from the community. We apologize if we were not clear enough about what we are intending to do. Eric, Jeff, and I are going to continue developing our cards on our own and these cards will be freely available for use by the public. We will be doing this voluntarily out of our love for the game – we are not seeking to make any monetary profit. When we are finished with our set after additional public playtesting (any players interested in playtesting would be welcome), we will make the set available to the public and the V:EKN has the option to sanction the use of our set in official V:EKN tournaments. We would be pleased if they did. In the past, some players have specifically stated that they don’t care how the cards are designed, they just care about the end results. The fact that we are now working independently should not matter if it still results in quality cards. This could be beneficial to the V:TES community if it means that more quality cards are developed. More ideas means more potential expansions. We will be finishing up our current Sabbat set and will be ready for Round 3 soon. We have already started work on our next set which will focus on the Laibon sect. pckvtes.wordpress.com

> Amenophobis wrote: > Eric, Jeff, and I are going to continue developing our cards on our own > Are you serious? This is getting really ugly. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

I agree with Ashur. Having the VTES community splitted between thoses who accept your card and thoses who refuses them could be pretty bad. Especially since it will also reinforce thoses opposed to the whole concept. Please note that for now I don't have too much fear about the quality of the work. I only worry about the consequence. Ironically, especially if your set is better than the "official" one.

I don't recall seeing any post saying they were upset your cards would not be in the set per sec, only a concern about the future of this set and our community in general. I really don't where your concern lays, with the cards your worked on or the future of VTES. I would like VEKN to release, the posts, threads, etc.. of those months prior to Peal returning so that I can form a more inform opinion of this rift you three are creating. My main interest the 3% and the nature of your replies to them. I believe one you gave us Lilith's Blessing, so I hope you can understand my concern on the impact on the game your cards may have. I wonder why you waited until after the second round of play-testing came back to make this move. Could it be that the results were less than favorable? Should I get a couple of guys together for cardtext and art as well? Would you be receptive to my contributions? Where does it stop?

My opinion has nothing to do with personal matters. I'm sorry, but I would only like to see VEKN sanctioned cards created and developed by the Design Team. It would be a mistake for VEKN to sanction cards outside of the Design Team. Even if that Design Team is disfunctional, it is VEKN's team. What would other volunteers that work with VEKN think? National Coordinators, Princes, other Inner Circles, etc. As much as I would like to see Montano or other vampires out, I draw a line in what I think can be more beneficial to the game than my own personal wants. There is a Design Team. Regardless of the problems it had, it is still in function. Maybe next time there will be another. Maybe with some of you three in it. Maybe with a different IC. Then that team will be the Design Team. I don't think that showing us what we are missing out by your departure of the DT is a good thing. Specially because those cards will never get final playtest by the same group as the ones released, therefore we would never really know, would we? On a personal note: In my opinion you guys are fundamental members of the VtES community. One is a NC, other is an IC (in an area that is very dear to me), and lots of people that know Jeff write good things about him (I don't know him, but I trust those who do). I don't like things that alienate you more. I think this would. Honestly. Tiago

> Brum wrote: > On a personal note: In my opinion you guys are fundamental members of the VtES community. One is a NC, other is an IC (in an area that is very dear to me), and lots of people that know Jeff write good things about him (I don't know him, but I trust those who do). I don't like things that alienate you more. I think this would. Honestly. > It's becoming clear to me, given Jeff, Carl, and Eric's public actions, that it was less Ben's actions and absence being a problem than it was one or more of those three letting their emotional state overwhelm them for months, convincing themselves that Ben was not the project director, and eventually being unwilling to work with Ben to form some sort of solution. I say this being friends with Jeff and Eric (I don't know Carl) and hoping to continue that friendship. But it's quite telling when you not only publicly resign from a job but you then take your tools, tell those who were your former employers and supervisors that any materials that you touched during your employment aren't to be touched by your former employer, and that you, on your own, are continuing the projects that you formerly worked on jointly. I don't care to hear the reasoning -- we've all read the reasoning already -- but I'd like to know what foundation their actions are setting up and how this fracturing of the design team will be good for the VTES community. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

"It's becoming clear to me, given Jeff, Carl, and Eric's public actions, that it was less Ben's actions and absence being a problem than it was one or more of those three letting their emotional state overwhelm them for months, convincing themselves that Ben was not the project director, and eventually being unwilling to work with Ben to form some sort of solution." No I think it has to do with the quality of the cards being produced by the current VEKN process which we are not allowed to talk about.

> Lambach wrote: > "It's becoming clear to me, given Jeff, Carl, and Eric's public actions, that it was less Ben's actions and absence being a problem than it was one or more of those three letting their emotional state overwhelm them for months, convincing themselves that Ben was not the project director, and eventually being unwilling to work with Ben to form some sort of solution." > > No I think it has to do with the quality of the cards being produced by the current VEKN process which we are not allowed to talk about. > This isn't enough of a complete thought for me to comment on. Perhaps you could further define what you are suggesting and explain why you think that way? Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> No I think it has to do with the quality of the cards being produced by the current VEKN process which we are not allowed to talk about. > I infer that you have seen some of the cards. I hope by "the Quality" being produced you mean underpowered. If VEKN prints all power cards in this first Non CCG Expansion, I will be gravely Disappointed. If there are going to be power cards, limits may need to be put into place for deck construction.

Based on what they have posted in these forums, Jeff Carl and Eric don't like the way cards are being designed and vetted by the Ben Peal/Phase 2 design team. It's pretty clear if you have played with the cards which ones came from which team. No one under NDA is allowed to talk specifics about this. So of course to the average forum reader (not suggesting that you are as I have no idea) it will seem like Jeff et.al. are just being immature jerks because nobody who avtually knows anything can say anything.

Well it is possible I am a below average forum reader, but the fact remains that this expansion will not be collectable. Rather it can be printed at will. That should be taken into account by designers, playtesters and the community. I hope none of the crypt cards will be worth putting more than three copies in it.

I'm getting the impression that the designers aren't aware of the responsibility they have towards the game and the community. Those conflicts and most important the reactions to them seem childish at best. Good heavens, it has to be possible to work together for the big goal to keep the game going after it has been abandoned by its former developers. For me it would be a great honour to work for said goal. So pull yourself together and keep going. And for future sets we should appoint developers, who really want to work for the game and not for their egos. (Edit)Sidenote: I don't need those guys to develop and publish unofficial cards. Everybody can do that and have done so already before. The feat is to make a well tested, balanced, official, game beneficial edition. Baron of Frankfurt

@Joscha : you say VEKN does need their expertise to do well-tested and balanced card. I am under the impression the three that have quit does not think that way and at the very least want to prove a point. Future will show who was right on the matter. > KevinM wrote: > It's becoming clear to me, given Jeff, Carl, and Eric's public actions, that it was less Ben's actions and absence being a problem than it was one or more of those three letting their emotional state overwhelm them for months, convincing themselves that Ben was not the project director, and eventually being unwilling to work with Ben to form some sort of solution. > Let's take for a moment the possibility that the douchebag is not the three messenger, but the director who variably abused them in some undisclosed way I don't know what you do in life, but in IT it happend quite frequently to see an incompetent superior mangle their work, stealing credit, and all. In a paid job, I would completely said to them to give all their work to their entreprise anyway. But here ? They work for free in their spare time. They have somehow the right not to bear that. The other possibility is that they are a trio of arrogant people that can't bear criticism and quit because they don't like to be supervised even in a normal way. But that's just two possibility. We are completely unable to see who the blame is - I just won't believe blindly neither Johannes nor the quitters. Both have badly handled the case, at least publicly. A a side note, I believe it would be better at this level to just remove everyone involved in the design team, including the director and all the designer, and either abandon the project or start it again with neutral people. The high school way : since nobody will say who is the culprit, everyone punished. And since ego is involved, the punishment will be good enough.

> Ohlmann wrote: > I agree with Ashur. Having the VTES community splitted between thoses who accept your card and thoses who refuses them could be pretty bad. > Only V:EKN issued cards will be tournament legal. For non-tournament games, all cards (in all formats) are of course allowed. There already is a tremendous number of propositions (and discussions) here: vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas , and I suppose Carl/Eric/Jeff's cards will be added to the list.

> Shard wrote: > I infer that you have seen some of the cards. I hope by "the Quality" being produced you mean underpowered. If VEKN prints all power cards in this first Non CCG Expansion, I will be gravely Disappointed. > So you want the V:EKN to produce a set of 30 underpowered cards that hardly anybody is going to use because they are underpowered (just like the 1000+ underpowered cards we already have)? May I ask why? I mean everything possible is done to no create overpowered cards, but deliberately aiming at all underpowered seems to make the whole idea of the set useless to me.

@Ohlmann: one of the issues I see with your plan is the hours and hours that lots of people already put into the project. Again, VEKN would be betraying the trust and effort of lots of its volunteers. It is not a situation of easy (or drastic) solutions, otherwise the remedy might be worse than the sickness.

The whole team should've remained intact for this Sabbat project, and then go on separate groups to work on further projects on their own (like the Laibon one mentioned). The quitters should have remained because of the community and the VEKN should at least value the x-hunred working hours they put in this project from the start, before scrapping x months of work, playtesting, and alienating these people away from it. It's interesting to see, that the quitters taking their work (which is understandable, but...) and design their variation. One of the sides have to let the thing go, because as it was said before, it'll be damn ugly, at best....

> Ohlmann wrote: > But that's just two possibility. We are completely unable to see who the blame is - I just won't believe blindly neither Johannes nor the quitters. Both have badly handled the case, at least publicly. > Uh, I think you are maybe confusing things here. There is a) Ben Peal as the DT leader. They were unable to work together with Ben for reasons I still cannot follow. Then b) the Inner Circle (and not me personally) was asked to sort the thing out by Jeff/Carl/Eric. Despite several good-willed proposals there was no agreement to be reached, first with Jeff/Carl/Eric and then with Carl/Eric. I never chose to deal with the publicity, also it wasn´t in my job description for chairman to "deal with ugly fall out of personal crusades", so yeah give me some adjustment time.

@Pascal Bertrand : I know that, but it won't prevent people from accepting a fan set if they believe it add a lot to the game. Or refusing both set. Not everything is VEKN-sanctioned. > Brum wrote: > @Ohlmann: one of the issues I see with your plan is the hours and hours that lots of people already put into the project. > Well, we have three people who have already been cheated of their effort - and nobody say they were doing nothing. Cheating everybody is harsh, but at least it don't feel like favoritism.

> johannes wrote: > Uh, I think you are maybe confusing things here. There is a) Ben Peal as the DT leader. They were unable to work together with Ben for reasons I still cannot follow. Then b) the Inner Circle (and not me personally) was asked to sort the thing out by Jeff/Carl/Eric. > I said your name as "the one who speak on behalf of the inner circle", because I see you as this. The idea is that they are most likely failure both on the J/C/E part and on inner circle + Ben part. And I think both of thoses parties will try to hide some ugly deeds. They may even not be aware of theirs own problems. It's often hard for someone to realize being obnoxious, doing favoritism, or trying to hog the glory or something like that. I can totally believe that everyone involved is trying to do is best without seeing its own fault. (that's part of the reason for wich undiscrimate blame is sometime good)

> Ohlmann wrote: > I said your name as "the one who speak on behalf of the inner circle", because I see you as this. > OK, fair enough. > > Ohlmann wrote: > The idea is that they are most likely failure both on the J/C/E part and on inner circle + Ben part. And I think both of thoses parties will try to hide some ugly deeds. > I have no ugly deeds to hide. I still don´t think it would do any good to release a massive amount of communication transcript since only a very few people would be able to even consume it (considering time as a constraint) so it must lead to a heated discussion between half informed people. But I am not worried about anything I said to anybody. In a real world situation you would now have a special prosecutor who spends months dissecting all the available material and then there would be hearings and whatnot. Since I don´t think we can and should have anything like that I would ask people to either give some trust to the VEKN and Inner Circle.

> Ohlmann wrote: > @Pascal Bertrand : I know that, but it won't prevent people from accepting a fan set if they believe it add a lot to the game. Or refusing both set. Not everything is VEKN-sanctioned. > Correct. However everything the VEKN does is VEKN sanctioned It is perfectly fine for anybody to have a tournament with whatever rules or cards he wants out there. It will just not be a constructed, sanctioned tournament, he can enter it as a limited event. For all I know there are people out there playing with 4 card limit rules, self-designed vampires and whatnot. I encourage all of that. What I would not encourage is trying to do something that resembles an official set creation process with possible intent or effect of sidetracking and taking resources from an official VEKN set creation effort. Again, the creation of the VEKN set is involving a massive amount of playtesters beyond what was ever done before and everybody is trying to make sure this set will be well received by the community through having an organized effort to test and verify everything with a good representation of the community.

> Ohlmann wrote: > Well, we have three people who have already been cheated of their effort - and nobody say they were doing nothing. Cheating everybody is harsh, but at least it don't feel like favoritism. > How it all seemed to me: - [Stuff] happen that made 3 DT members feel betrayed. If [Stuff] gave them good reason, if they also helped to create [Stuff], if it was all a big miss understanding or freak accident of nature is irrelevant (at this stage!). It happened and they feel the way they do. - They left. VEKN didn't expel them. They felt they had no choice. That is very clear. But it is quite different than being fired. In this I don't understand how you consider going on with the project looks like favoritism. It seems to me that what you propose is for the VEKN to do something that might produce in hundreds of people the same feeling that those three gentlemen have. Shifting from the problem to the solution: - Is the VEKN making sure that the individual expertise of each of the departing members are fully restored in the DT? On this stage I feel it is important for VEKN IC to describe how. - Is the IC considering to study this whole process and take all that has happened into account in future Expansion Designs? Please do this after the release of this one and not before. This hardship and the way they deal with might be VEKN IC's greatest achievement ever. Or it might be a missed opportunity. You know, the old cliché that hardship is the best opportunity for growth and learning. Tiago

> So you want the V:EKN to produce a set of 30 underpowered cards that hardly anybody is going to use because they are underpowered (just like the 1000+ underpowered cards we already have)? May I ask why? I mean everything possible is done to no create overpowered cards, but deliberately aiming at all underpowered seems to make the whole idea of the set useless to me. > Underpowered was an overstatement on my part. It is my feeling that the 20-21 crypt cards being produced be made up of support vampires, not stars. I the library in past sets we got rares, uncommons and commons. Most rares and uncommons will not be an issue as there are only so many one will put in a deck 2-3 and 4-6 respectively, but there are exceptions. It is the exceptions I do not want to see in the first VEKN set.

> Shard wrote: > I the library in past sets we got rares, uncommons and commons. Most rares and uncommons will not be an issue as there are only so many one will put in a deck 2-3 and 4-6 respectively, but there are exceptions. It is the exceptions I do not want to see in the first VEKN set. > Why? "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Amenophobis wrote: > The cards we have designed are not to be used by the V:EKN Design Team. Since the creative content for Round 1 originated from our work (including Jeff Kuta’s), and had no significant contributions from the remaining Design Team members, we insist that the Design Team refrains from further playtest of such cards and from including them in the upcoming set without our explicit permission. This creative content includes all of the cards from Round 1, with one exception, and any other ideas that we initiated and explored. > So VEKN can't use the material "provided" by the quiting team, but the quiting team can use the playtest work provided by VEKN? Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Shard wrote: > I the library in past sets we got rares, uncommons and commons. Most rares and uncommons will not be an issue as there are only so many one will put in a deck 2-3 and 4-6 respectively, but there are exceptions. It is the exceptions I do not want to see in the first VEKN set. > We are aiming for usable but not game breaking. Power level along the lines of Enhanced Senses, Sense the Savage Way, Public Trust, Cavalier, Torn Signpost. Rarity as a counter to power level? Sounds very unfair to me. For example I was always in the position where my collection is so big that I can have virtually any number of any card I want, rarity was not a limiting factor for some people. Easily available new cards without rarity are certainly balancing out the field more than anything else.

> Joscha wrote: > And for future sets we should appoint developers, who really want to work for the game and not for their egos. > Amen. Look, creative people get differences in opinion. That's normal. But what needs to happen, a lot, is what's called "Killing Your Darlings": if testing reveals that your cherished creations do not work well in practice, you need to get rid of them. No matter how much you're in love with what you've created, and no matter how much you personally believe in them. This sort of thing needs to be a group effort. I don't know the details of what's going on here (though I've heard some bits and pieces which I'll keep private via off-forum channels), but it's clear that it's a personality/ego issue. All that matters in the end is the quality of the cards being designed, and whether or not they work in actual play. Period.

> PetriWessman wrote: > This sort of thing needs to be a group effort. I don't know the details of what's going on here (though I've heard some bits and pieces which I'll keep private via off-forum channels), but it's clear that it's a personality/ego issue. > I would like to remind that the messengers (the three one who step down) may not be the ones with ego problems. Even if they don't help theirs cases with the whole "we will release our card anyway".

> Amenophobis wrote: > Eric, Jeff, and I are going to continue developing our cards on our own and these cards will be freely available for use by the public. > No! For the love of Caine, please, no! The game doesn't need any Cold Waresque competition between "Officially Designed Cards TM" and "Cards Designed by Former Design Team Members TM". That way lies only madness and it will diminish us as a whole. To me this sounds pretty much like playground grievances of 6 year olds, so to be harsh, if you really want the best for the game, grow up, grow a pair and "return" the cards you designed back to the VEKN. Finnish Politics!

Reminds me of MJL/NJL vs DCI. That eventually worked out. Maybe this will too. -- salem

I guess we'll see what the card set looks like under the DT leader's influence and without his influence. Perhaps that will give some insight into the true nature of this dispute. If one version is significantly better (or more broken) than the other, that will certainly give me some perspective.

Somehow, the situation reminds me of the game, our great hobby V:tES, itself: An eternal struggle, with all kinds of "battles" waging to and fro ... This time, it is not for VPs and GWs, but for good cards and a good edition ... This one should not be decided by time-out, for the sake of the game ... National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de

We have not, apart from those directly involved, enough information to make us a precise idea of what really happened. I cooperated in the initial phase of playtesting and I worked for the community, spending hours and hours to create decks with new cards and integrate them with existing decks ... I just hope all this work was not useless. Like other testers (in my group) I did it for the good of the community and because I love vtes. so i just hope that all those involved, regardless of their reasons, they can put aside their personal interests and reach a compromise. So we can see the birth of this expansion set that will bring new life to our beloved Vtes and throughout our community. Supertoc (sorry for my bad english)

> We are aiming for usable but not game breaking. Power level along the lines of Enhanced Senses, Sense the Savage Way, Public Trust, Cavalier, Torn Signpost. > I find this list to be within acceptable power levels, with the exception of Cavalier. I appreciate that you included it in you list of examples. Cavalier is exactly the kind of card I am concerned about. To date there are 4 TWD's with one copy of it. I do not think that giving multi-act to any(?) clan to be a small thing. If it was not a HttB rare, I feel we would see more decks with more copies of it in the TWDA. It was printed as a rare for a reason. I believe part of the fun of a CCG is making trades that are sometimes hard. I cannot say that I am in favor of printing more cards, but if they are to be printed. 1) I do not want them to make old decks(my collection) obsolete. 2) I feel the first set should be conservative. There is time yet, before stagnation sets in.

> Shard wrote: > I find this list to be within acceptable power levels, with the exception of Cavalier. I appreciate that you included it in you list of examples. > Cavalier is exactly the kind of card I am concerned about. To date there are 4 TWD's with one copy of it. I do not think that giving multi-act to any(?) clan to be a small thing. If it was not a HttB rare, I feel we would see more decks with more copies of it in the TWDA. It was printed as a rare for a reason. > > I believe part of the fun of a CCG is making trades that are sometimes hard. > I cannot say that I am in favor of printing more cards, but if they are to be printed. > 1) I do not want them to make old decks(my collection) obsolete. > 2) I feel the first set should be conservative. > There is time yet, before stagnation sets in. > I don't get why rares should be more powerful. Never understood that mentality from players. Play should be equal and the guy who spends 250$ for a deck in ebay should not have upper hand. Companies I of course understand because it is good for making money and buying new packs. Vtes had the mentality that you don't need so many rares in your deck. There were exceptions but generally it was managed ok. I also think CCG business model doesn't belong anymore to this century. I like FFGs LCG model, I can just buy cards I need instantly. I know many players who doesn't like CCG because of the first C of the name. For me number one reason I don't play Vtes so much anymore is all the effort. I might have time to plan more decks but then I would have to hunt all cards I need also. Way too much time consuming for me. CCGs are like money and time "investment". You have to spend so much time to get cards so you don't want give up the game after you did all the effort. I will not give up the game but I just see the whole game needing so much time and effort so I play surprising rare. EDIT I was just surprised because you picked Cavalier. So I guess rarity had to do something about it. I find other cards in the list more powerful and more metagame changing.

> Shard wrote: > > > We are aiming for usable but not game breaking. Power level along the lines of Enhanced Senses, Sense the Savage Way, Public Trust, Cavalier, Torn Signpost. > > > I find this list to be within acceptable power levels, with the exception of Cavalier. I appreciate that you included it in you list of examples. I > Cavalier is exactly the kind of card I am concerned about. To date there are 4 TWD's with one copy of it. I do not think that giving multi-act to any(?) clan to be a small thing. If it was not a HttB rare, I feel we would see more decks with more copies of it in the TWDA. It was printed as a rare for a reason. > > I believe part of the fun of a CCG is making trades that are sometimes hard. > I cannot say that I am in favor of printing more cards, but if they are to be printed. > 1) I do not want them to make old decks(my collection) obsolete. > 2) I feel the first set should be conservative. > There is time yet, before stagnation sets in. > I know a couple of people owning 4-5 copies of it. Still they rarely play it. Master slots are valuable and the requirement for blood cost action and successfull is a problem and you need to play it early or it is mostly a dead card. I think you are overestimating the power of Cavalier.

> Shard wrote: > Cavalier is exactly the kind of card I am concerned about. To date there are 4 TWD's with one copy of it. I do not think that giving multi-act to any(?) clan to be a small thing. If it was not a HttB rare, I feel we would see more decks with more copies of it in the TWDA. It was printed as a rare for a reason. > This is totally bogus card design. V:TES absolutely, positively knew when it was created that rarity simply cannot balance a card. Magic had shown that players would buy thousands upon thousands of cards if they liked the game enough, when Garfield's initial design for it assumed people would probably pick up maybe a few hundred cards - and that a complete set would either not happen or be very rare. As a result, V:TES has pretty much never used rarity as a balancing factor. Many of the more niche cards tend towards rare/uncommon (or vampire, in sets that support that rarity), and staple cards towards common. Certainly, mistakes have been made, and I'm sure that some choices have been made with an eye towards, you know, making a profit and all that. But many massively powerful cards are common - Govern the Unaligned is still, pound for pound, pretty much one of the most powerful cards in the game and has been in something like 9 different sets, both as a normal card and as a fixed card in pre-cons. Super easy to get. If a card is too powerful, the correct response is not to make it rare because *someone* will collect them all on Ebay and then fuck up a Continental Championship with it. (Or, if you prefer, Jyhad Online.) The correct response is to make the card a more balanced card.

I agree with you James about niche cards tend to be rare. Most of them you would only have 1-3 in the deck. Cavalier is arguably the best Archetype in the game. I do not understand how you all think a permanent inferior freak drive is not great. Sure you have to craft the deck with it in mind, unlike Perfectionist. If there was action modifier that gave you a blood after a successful action does anyone think it would see more play than Freak Drive.

> Shard wrote: > Cavalier is arguably the best Archetype in the game. I do not understand how you all think a permanent inferior freak drive is not great. Sure you have to craft the deck with it in mind, unlike Perfectionist. If there was action modifier that gave you a blood after a successful action does anyone think it would see more play than Freak Drive. > Cavalier is good in a DOM/PRE vote deck but that's about it. Perfectionist is good in a deck with vampires.

Cybel Guarded Rubrics

Hate to drag out the old TWDA argument but Cavalier appears 3 times in 3 different decks. I don't buy that that's due to rarity when other rares with more restrictions from the same set get more playtime.

I have been running it in a Madness Network deck with GtU to bleed every time around the table. But once I put in the blood gain and the intercept to keep the MN in play, it just does not flow right. David Tatu V:EKN Scribe

Earlier I made a mistake, it came from HttB. Aside from the Baahli rares, I do not see many of those rares played. possible exceptions.. Summon History Raw Recruit Command Performance The Rising

> I have been running it in a Madness Network deck with GtU to bleed every time around the table. But once I put in the blood gain and the intercept to keep the MN in play, it just does not flow right. > I assume you are using. The Rack Obedience Anima Gathering Bowl of Conv. Phased Motion Detector 5th tradition

> Shard wrote: > Cavalier is arguably the best Archetype in the game. I do not understand how you all think a permanent inferior freak drive is not great. > That's because you're changing your argument. No-one is saying it is not potentially very cool, or useful to a variety of decks. It's not a total no-brainer - it competes for master card space; some decks already have good untap potential; not every deck is necessarily succeeding at enough actions (bruise-and-X decks that get blocked a lot? not the strongest archetype, but certainly played); and not every deck that would like more untap has masses of spare blood and/or is using actions that cost blood. But it's totally not a bad card. It's up there with Perfectionist, sure, which is also arguably a top tier archetype. It was not made rare in order to prevent lots of players getting access to lots of copies because the game would break if that happened. If the card was very overpowered or broken, that can't be addressed by rarity. Personally, were there the option to in the relevant sets, I'd have made most of the (playable) archetypes uncommon. (And not printed the rubbish ones, obviously.) Or possibly vampire rarity - which works out to much the same thing, roughly. The earlier ones are probably too common. But when you basically only have common or rare to pick from, then these things happen.

Cavalier looks broken until you try to actually play it. Then you realise the problem: how do I spend 2+ blood per turn when I don't have Perfectionist to refill?

Maybe it would be good to create a thread on rarity and card design ? While interesting, I see few connecting dot between the decision of three people to quit a project, and how to do the project correctly.

> Non-existant user wrote: > Cavalier looks broken until you try to actually play it. Then you realise the problem: how do I spend 2+ blood per turn when I don't have Perfectionist to refill? > Exactly. Cavalier is not a bad card, I should use it more often but it pales in comparison to Perfectionist. As the guys at Cause and Effect said; "hunt action is the worst action you can do". Perfectionist makes sure I don't run out of steam and is forced to perform this worst action.

> david.tatu wrote: > I have been running it in a Madness Network deck with GtU to bleed every time around the table. But once I put in the blood gain and the intercept to keep the MN in play, it just does not flow right. > i've listed a deck out with it, and i believe you and i have had the madness network talks before. the best way i've tried with cavalier and madness network is using Tryphosa (all your bleeds cost 1 blood and are at +1 stealth, so notmally you get through) but this thread is moving far away from its original intention. I easily agree that power level of cards that are being or were being designed is relevant to the conversation, but disputing power levels of already existing cards does not belong here.

Pardon me, but is this thread still "Stepping down from the Design Team"? National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de

I am not exactly sure where it appears that my stance changed. If blood cost is such an issue why do people play freak drive? Cavalier is a good card, it does have a limited scope of decks it would be in. It gives the ability to multi-act to decks that previously did not have access to it. It is not that it is good that made it a rare, rather it is the limited scope and change in potential decks. Just because the people who have the card in required numbers have chosen to make use of it does not mean it is not viable for tier 1-2. I will take cavalier to another thread.

Isnt it kind of too late to retrieve playtest cards ideas? They have been put into the public domain and formally submitted or adopted by the vekn... I know many companies specefically have a 'you submit it, its ours' kind of property waiver thingamabob. What is the vekns position on this?

> talonz wrote: > What is the vekns position on this? > Dunno, but I just wrote elsewhere (it is kinda more relevant in this thread): > Lönkka wrote: > I suggest that we modify the design team's contract (if there is any) so that the ownership of the cards designed is in the hands of the organization, not the designers. At least as long as there is no new publisher for the game (ie. until any possible money enters the picture). > > If this forum's card suggestion threads are used to harvest for new card ideas for playtesting/future expansions then the same needs to be applied to all these suggestions/threads as well. So that by default when you suggest a card in this forum you are handing over the rights of those cards/ideas to VEKN. > Finnish Politics!