Card idea: Thick Blood

Name: Thick Blood Cardtype: Combat Cost: 1 blood Discipline: Quietus [qui] Maneuver. [QUI] Only usable before range is determined. Combat cards cost the opposing minion an additional blood or life this combat. Some kind of Terror Frenzy (sup) or Wave of Lethargy on steroids (since it's not limited). Useless at superior if your opponent does nothing but hand strike (or use equipment). I thought of making it free, but anyway there's plenty of way of not paying the combat cards in quietus, so this is more balanced with a 1-blood cost. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Seem balanced. Especially powerful against long combat chain that does not work too well anyway. Easily cyclable. I would put some kind of limit. It's implausible that playing 6-7 free thick blood per combat would be viable, but it would be annoying as hell.

Superior should be limited to once per combat, basic effect could use a bit of oomph as its a bit weak for card that costs a blood. Although I would just make the card free, with the once per combat limit to the superior.

> Klaital wrote: > Although I would just make the card free, with the once per combat limit to the superior. > I agree for free but 1 per combat or 1 blood but 3 per combat maximum.

Inferior is worthless. Quietus do not need cards that cost blood without reasonable effects. If it would be "combat cards, healing damage and preventing destruction) cost opposing minion an additional blood" then sure, it's worth the cost (even with useless inferior)(and yes, healing damage means opposing vampire pay 2 blood to heal 1 damage). Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

Inferior could be tweaked, sure. As for limiting the superior effect, I see it that way: - if you play 1, it's hindering the opposing minion just as Terror Frenzy of Wave of Lethargy would do - if you play more than 1, you are probably stopping the opposing minion from playing combat cards, or at a quite heavy cost. But it's in the end quite similar to Immortal Grappling him (for strike)s, or setting the range before range (for maneuvers), plus it makes Carrion Crows etc. very expensive. Since the card does nothing else by itself, it seems ok for me to be able to play more than 1. This would enhance the blood attrition combat strategies of the Assamite. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > This would enhance the blood attrition combat strategies of the Assamite. > I agree this would be cool way to make Assamite combat work. I just don't agree that playing lot of combat cards should be punished. I would like to see opposite: punishing playing 0 combat cards or only 1 combat card. Now card just punishes already scarce other combat decks and QUI combat would still not be very effective against 0 combat cards (compared to ANI, POT or CEL).

As a dedicated Assamite fanboy and player, i can say i like this card as it is. Good job, Ankha!

> Surreal wrote: > I would like to see opposite: punishing playing 0 combat cards or only 1 combat card. Now card just punishes already scarce other combat decks and QUI combat would still not be very effective against 0 combat cards (compared to ANI, POT or CEL). > I love the idea. Maybe something like : [QUI] put this card in play and move up to four blood or life counter from the opposing minion to this card. Each time the opposing minion play a card, return two counter from this card to him. Burn this card and the blood on it at the end of the combat. Basically, it would punish severely combat end and allies decks, and not be too effective against real combat decks.

> Ohlmann wrote: > I love the idea. Maybe something like : > > [QUI] put this card in play and move up to four blood or life counter from the opposing minion to this card. Each time the opposing minion play a card, return two counter from this card to him. Burn this card and the blood on it at the end of the combat. > > Basically, it would punish severely combat end and allies decks, and not be too effective against real combat decks. > Good idea but that is too powerful (compare to Vitae Block). Burning Shambling Hordes instantly is lame. Unique style QUI combat cards I would like to see would be something like this: I am super ninja! [QUI] Only usable before range is chosen. Put this card on opposing minion with three counters. Remove counter from this card every time this minion plays a combat card. Burn this card when this minion untaps and this minion burns one blood or life from every counter on this card. Minion may have only one I am super ninja!

Wave of Lethargy only affects maneuvers and presses at basic, and strikes at superior. As stated, this card also affects non-strikes, non-maneuvers and non-presses. I have to ask, is that a desirable effect, as well as an intended effect? To be honest, the original card as posted looks pretty good as is. Maybe you could make it cancel-able by burning blood? "This card may be cancelled by the opposing vampire by paying 2 blood." at superior would be enough to discourage anything but the most dedicated combat decks from paying that cost. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

> Surreal wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > This would enhance the blood attrition combat strategies of the Assamite. > > > I agree this would be cool way to make Assamite combat work. I just don't agree that playing lot of combat cards should be punished. I would like to see opposite: punishing playing 0 combat cards or only 1 combat card. Now card just punishes already scarce other combat decks and QUI combat would still not be very effective against 0 combat cards (compared to ANI, POT or CEL). > Well, Assamite were supposed to be great warriors. With you suggestion: - they would be stronger against non fighting decks. But they are already powerful against them... - it won't change anything against fighting decks, so a Assamite combat deck will stay weak as before. I can't really see the point in creating a card that changes nothing. > direwolf wrote: > Wave of Lethargy only affects maneuvers and presses at basic, and strikes at superior. As stated, this card also affects non-strikes, non-maneuvers and non-presses. > > I have to ask, is that a desirable effect, as well as an intended effect? > Yes, it was designed to also make Torn Signposts, Carrion Crows and so on more expensive (provided you're the acting vampire). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > - they would be stronger against non fighting decks. But they are already powerful against them... > Well, they relie entirely on Psyche! to be powerful against them. It would be another card to deal with S:CE. Also, Assamite are supposed to be, well, Assassins. In my book, they should be especially strong against people that just want to live, but not especially strong against already decent combattant like Brujah.

Imo, Assamites should be assassins. They have THREE disciplines that allow them attack unseen, unheard and fast enough to not leave a trace. In vtes it's not represented at all - they fight like every other clan, and their opponents are perfectly aware of their strikes when assamites rush them (as assamites declare it first), and can react against it. Card that assamites deserve is something that reward them from, as it would be in world of darkness, attacking someone by surprise. In vtes it can be represented in many ways, perhaps the best one would be either combat card or action modifier/reaction that only works if this assamite isn't blocked (so work when he enter combat at stealth and when he blocked someone) that use and/or that prevent opponent from striking in initial strike resolution. Preventing other from using power of their blood is also quietus theme, and current cards represent it in bad way, but if we really want to help assamite combat (and nosferatu, and !gangrel if it's mono obf card), rewarding them for using stealth rushing is the way to go. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

Attacking someone unseen is generally represented either with first strike (plenty of that in assamite discplines), or with manuevers (given by most rush cards). You already have Hidden Lurker for the cannot strike effect.

> Klaital wrote: > Attacking someone unseen is generally represented either with first strike (plenty of that in assamite discplines), or with manuevers (given by most rush cards). > "plenty" is a bit much. They have shadow feint and Silence of death that are more or less playable, but still way too expensive for first strike. Also, first strike and maneuvers are, well, relatively weak effects, that work mainly against combat powerhouse. Mind of the wild feel more hired-killer than Shadow feint for me. > Klaital wrote: > You already have Hidden Lurker for the cannot strike effect. > Which is extremely expensive for a pretty good effect. Not a bad card, just one who is scarcely playable because of the cost. Also, it is not exactly a surprise ambush in that the vampire already had a combat.

> Klaital wrote: > Attacking someone unseen is generally represented either with first strike (plenty of that in assamite discplines), or with manuevers (given by most rush cards). You already have Hidden Lurker for the cannot strike effect. > While nice effects, first strike is generally speaking useless effect, and maneuvers aren't useful against someone who just s:ce (first strike isn't useful either). Hidden Lurker is good effect, but isn't exactly stealthy assassin given the minion already blocked one action. Stealthy assassin would prevent the opponent from striking in the first place and made sure his strike hit the target. It's strong effect, i know it, but totally reasonable. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Lech wrote: > Stealthy assassin would prevent the opponent from striking in the first place and made sure his strike hit the target. It's strong effect, i know it, but totally reasonable. > One way to implement this may be a quietus rush that disallow strike card if the opposing methuselah don't discard two combat cards. It would be a pain in the ass of S:CE about as big as Immortal grapple, while still having weakness (block in this case)

It would be better as action modifier (played as action is announced or not) or reaction. This way you would be forced to play actual rush cards (like contracts ?), this card, then combat package. IF it would be rush, it would be very card effective therefore would require bigger cost as "chain" would be shorter. Also for thematic reasons, quietus don't give you a clue where your opponent is (some high level quietus aside), you have to learn it from other sources (do paperwork, get some data from person who issued the contract, shadowing etc). I don't want broken card, i want balanced one. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Lech wrote: > This way you would be forced to play actual rush cards (like contracts ?), this card, then combat package. > But then, you would be able to use with other rush benefit, especially +1 stealth permarush like the black hand master. I don't believe it to be too powerful once taking into account Deep Song (which have similarly an additional effect that is not combat-related : tapping the target), if there is an escape clause. Also, I tend to believe that combat chain are too long already, meaning that vampires with perma rush are extremely useful. So, I am not too keen on extending it.

Well you can use Thoughts Betrayed as an example of what a strike card preventing card should be like. That already does about what you want.

> Ankha wrote: > - they would be stronger against non fighting decks. But they are already powerful against them... > - it won't change anything against fighting decks, so a Assamite combat deck will stay weak as before. > This might be metagame thing but I think QUI and Assamite are quite bad combat clan. My reasons are just different. Another discussion is what they are even supposed to be. First priority I think when building a combat deck is how I surely I can torp or damage seriously a vampire playing 0 combat cards even with my bad combat hand otherwise it is often just wasting actions and cards. You want to make sure the combat works almost every time. ANI shines here with 6 dmg done with just two cards. ANI combat package is very card effective and you can just spam two cards (+ deep song is amazing). That is where ANI shines, against 0 combat card decks with villeins meta. Then I think how my combat package works against usual combat defense (mainly S:CE, prevent, long/short range, Carlton etc.). ANI works great against some and POT against some, you have to think what to focus on. If torporising is main prio then choose POT against combat ends. Last thing I think is how my combat works against other combat decks. That is quite minor thing for me because there are not so many combat decks in tournament meta. I feel Assamite already works great against other combat decks with dodges, presses + range sets. CEL is one of the best discplines for combat defense and offense in same package for combat decks (example Pursuit). I feel Assamites are not so good when compared to POT or ANI (or CEL with useful defensive discplines like AUS). Best Assamite combat is just CEL combat with very few QUI cards and use QUI for ousting. When Assamites can have problems even being effective against 0 combat cards or basic combat defense, giving QUI card against combat decks doesn't make sense for me. That will not surely change anything. Also I don't see the point why playing a lot of combat cards should be even punished when it is very rarely even strong play.

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > Lech wrote: > > This way you would be forced to play actual rush cards (like contracts ?), this card, then combat package. > > > But then, you would be able to use with other rush benefit, especially +1 stealth permarush like the black hand master. > > I don't believe it to be too powerful once taking into account Deep Song (which have similarly an additional effect that is not combat-related : tapping the target), if there is an escape clause. > > Also, I tend to believe that combat chain are too long already, meaning that vampires with perma rush are extremely useful. So, I am not too keen on extending it. > Of course you would be able to, but as far as i am aware, it would require you to play those rushes in the first place and use 2 cards each time you want to enter combat instead of one (and potentially pay poll for clandestine contract, pay master phase action for contracts - even black hand ones, get no stealth etc - it's not so easy). Deep Song is very good card, i don't think will ever get card on this powerlevel, better to expect something reasonable. I am also not so keen at extending combat chain, but i see that in this case it's justified unless it would cost hefty amount of blood or have extreme restrictions. Something like this one below would be fairy reasonable. Silence This vampire get an optional maneuver during first round of combat. As above, and if this vampire wasn't blocked, the opposing minion cannot strike during initial strike resolution during first round of combat. This card cost an additional blood. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

How about: Thick Blood Combat Cost 1 blood [qui] Maneuver or press. [QUI] Only usable before range is determined. This vampire burns 1 blood to make the the opposing minion pay an additional blood or life to play combat cards this combat. Prince of Puyallup

> glaswanderer wrote: > How about: > > Thick Blood > Combat > Cost 1 blood > [qui] Maneuver or press. > [QUI] Only usable before range is determined. This vampire burns 1 blood to make the the opposing minion pay an additional blood or life to play combat cards this combat. > Awfully over-costed. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Agreed, the idea is nice but the inferior is bad.

How about no more combat cards for . Or at least no more combat only cards. Here, a concession. Thick Blood 1 blood Reduce the acting minion's stealth to 0. The minion may still increase his or her stealth. Only usable before range is determined. Gain an optional maneuver. The opposing minion must burn 1 blood or life for each combat card played this combat. Only one Thick Blood playable per vampire per combat. There, something usable beyond combat. It's a superior Draba at basic quietus, which given you're slowing someone's blood to gravy isn't too far out there. And it's powerful -- and I don't care that it's powerful. Quietus should get powerful things by now. (And no, a complicated and redundant wake doesn't count.) The superior fails to hitback, especially big allies smash, but there's a maneuver to help. Otherwise it sours Dodge and S:CE at a 1:1 (though with the maneuver it's hilarious with Thin Blood). And it hoses combat intensive decks (I don't know why that's a priority, but whatever). Better?

Reduce stealth to 0 at inferior - too good (considering the existing path) [qui] Reduce the acting minion's stealth by 2. is enough.

How about this change? [qui][reaction] Action modifiers that do not require [cel] or [tem] cost an additional blood. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> jAvel wrote: > Reduce stealth to 0 at inferior - too good (considering the existing path) > > [qui] Reduce the acting minion's stealth by 2. > > is enough. > Incorrect! There is no such thing as too good for certain disciplines. I maintain disciplines like Quietus and Thanatosis are in dire need of "too good." Power: accept no substitutes.

> Azel wrote: > I maintain disciplines like Quietus and Thanatosis are in dire need of "too good." Power: accept no substitutes. > You're wrong. They need enough powerful ward, not one uber powerful card of doom. You wouldn't want to see people using your uber card only with agent of power or something like that And Thanatosis does have an uber powerful card : the reanimated corpse

NO! They need it all! I need to ride a dragon while playing a flying V as I fire my Death Star!