This is my second smartass article.
It should be noted that a single clarification/ruling will void the entire chain of argument I am about to present.
Thesis: All action modifiers are by default playable during the acting Meth's 'as card is played', in this case referring to the action card being played.
Argument 1: The action modifier Psalm of the Damned has been ruled to be playable after a wake card is played to prevent the reacting Meth from playing more reaction cards.
Argument 2: Wake cards are legal to play in order to enable the playing of Rewind Time, which in turn is used to cancel the acting Meth's action card 'as card is played'.
The above statement only holds true for unambiguous action cards. The reason for this is that the 'as card is played' window ends before the 'as action is anounced' window. So, for example, you're not allowed to wait with your DI on GTU until the acting Meth has finalized the declaration if it's a bleed or moving blood to the uncontrolled region.
It could be argued that the above holds true for any action card, unabigious or not, in which case you can never play an action modifier on your own action card until the action is fully declared (which occurs after the 'as card is played window'.
This would, however, present us with another ambiguity.
The 'as card is played' window isn't indivisible. I play an action card, you DI said card, a third player plays Sudden on your DI, and my action card is now played and I'm about to announce the action. Futhermore, we have an explicit ruling stating that playing a wake-card before playing Rewind Time is also legal. This last ruling allows the reacting Meth to stack reactions during the 'as cardis played' window for an action card.
Thus it follows that there is an action to react to (or wake cards wouldn't be playable in the first place), ie that the action starts before it is anounced. Following this line of reasoning it also follows that action modifiers are playable during this window, provided that they don't refer to an effect expicitly needing an action announcement.
Let me clarify. Stacking Conditioning on GtU during the 'as card is played' window would be illegal, because the playing GtU at inferior or superior isn't determined until the 'as action is announced' window.
Conditioning on Computer Hacking seems to work though. Notably, as acting Meth I'd expect to be allowed to stack my non-problematic modifiers before the reacting Meth is allowed to DI/wake RT. This because of how the rules handle impulse swapping.
It is, however, somewhat problematic that when the impulse passes, the action card to which all modifiers refer, can still be cancelled during its 'as card is played' window, in which case you have an acting Meth legally having played a number of modifiers on an action that will never be announced.
For practical purposes, the above is normally only useful if the acting Meth wants to cycle into a modifier explicitly limited to play during the 'as action is announced' window. Seduction comes to mind. Or possibly in order to clean up a jammed hand in general.
The clarification/ruling which would void this entire chain of reasoning is one that expicitly states that Psalm of the Damned cannot be played during the 'as card is played' window, eg can't be used to prevent the playing of Rewinf Time afte a wake.
As usual, flame on.
I don't understand what you want to achieve.
Anyway, the statement
>
> yappo wrote:
> Thesis: All action modifiers are by default playable during the acting Meth's 'as card is played', in this case referring to the action card being played.
>
is wrong, and the reasoning is also wrong and poorly built.
Eg.
>
> yappo wrote:
> Let me clarify. Stacking Conditioning on GtU during the 'as card is played' window would be illegal, because the playing GtU at inferior or superior isn't determined until the 'as action is announced' window
>
Is wrong, as many arguments you use.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> yappo wrote:
> " Let me clarify. Stacking Conditioning on GtU during the 'as card is played' window would be illegal, because the playing GtU at inferior or superior isn't determined until the 'as action is announced' window.
>
> Conditioning on Computer Hacking seems to work though."
>
No, it seems you are mistaken here.
Conditioning on computer hacking does not work either.
Declaring what action you are doing with the card, be it "i can choose between Gtu forward or down" or "i have to bleed for +1 bleed with Computer hacking", is the same : you declare the terms of the action when the card is played. Then there is a window for playing D.I. and/or Rewind time (by card text) before you can go on.
I really can't understand the point you are trying to prove here.
Psalm of the damned can be played after a wake, yes, and so what ? Does it somewhat bend the rules ? I can't see where it should be a problem, since when the blocking minion plays his first reaction card (wake), as the acting meth, you have the priority to play any card you want to trump the block.
Please enlighten me. (else I can't flame anything and I hate it when my matchbox sits there unused )
Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
> yappo wrote:
> Argument 1: The action modifier Psalm of the Damned has been ruled to be playable after a wake card is played to prevent the reacting Meth from playing more reaction cards.
>
You are probably talking about a clarification, it doesn't need additional ruling because it follows the normal sequencing rules just fine.
For example:
Scenario 1:
X bleed Y and give away impulse. Y play wake and decides to wait until X play +bleed action modifier before playing deflection (returns the impulse). X play Psalm of the Damned. X can not play deflection.
Scenario 2:
X bleed Y and give away impulse. Y play wake and immediately play deflection. X can not insert Psalm of the Damned between the cards because he does not have the impulse.
> I really can't understand the point you are trying to prove here.
> Psalm of the damned can be played after a wake, yes, and so what ? Does it somewhat bend the rules ? I can't see where it should be a problem, since when the blocking minion plays his first reaction card (wake), as the acting meth, you have the priority to play any card you want to trump the block.
>
If Wake and Rewind Time can be played in the 'as announced' window and Psalm of the Damned can be played in the same window as Wake, it follows that Psalm of the Damned can be played in the 'as announced' window as well, despite lacking an explicit 'usable as announced' clause. Either Psalm is arbitrated to be an exception or every action modifier is playable in the 'as announced' window by default.
> Chaitan wrote:
> You are probably talking about a clarification, it doesn't need additional ruling because it follows the normal sequencing rules just fine.
>
> For example:
> Scenario 1:
> X bleed Y and give away impulse. Y play wake and decides to wait until X play +bleed action modifier before playing deflection (returns the impulse). X play Psalm of the Damned. X can not play deflection.
>
> Scenario 2:
> X bleed Y and give away impulse. Y play wake and immediately play deflection. X can not insert Psalm of the Damned between the cards because he does not have the impulse.
>
That's incorrect. The impulse always passes back to the acting Methuselah when an effect is played. After Y plays a Wake, X gets to play Psalm of the Damned.
Fair enough Reyda
The problem child here is the rather recent ruling on Psalm.
It doesn't limit what kind of reaction cards I can kill after a wake, which implictly means I can prevent the playing of Rewind Time as well.
I hope we can agree that the three cards Computer Hacking (just to have an example of an action card), Forced Awakening and Rewind Time are all played during the 'as card is played' window for Computer Hacking.
If Psalm is indeed playable to disable the playing of Rewind Time after the Forced Awakening (perectly consistent with the impulse swapping rules we have), then that also means that Psalm is indeed playable during the 'as card is played' window for Computer Hacking (because I'm playing Psalm to prevent you from react with a card which definitely is playable during the 'as card is played' window, and if I play my card before you can play yours, then by definition I have to be playing it during the same window.
Psalm lacks any text making it 'special' as far as when it can be played.
In VTES we don't add restrictions to cards based on what text is NOT written on the card. If Psalm (lacking any extra enabling text) is playable during a certain time-window, then all other modifiers behave to same way (disregarding explicit text limiting them).
Or to visualize it from 'the other direction'. If you want to prevent the playing of Rewind Time (wakes or no wakes) on your GtU, then you MUST play Psalm before you announce if GtU is played at superior or inferior.
Got some gasoline now?
> Suoli wrote:
>
> > Chaitan wrote:
> > You are probably talking about a clarification, it doesn't need additional ruling because it follows the normal sequencing rules just fine.
> >
> > For example:
> > Scenario 1:
> > X bleed Y and give away impulse. Y play wake and decides to wait until X play +bleed action modifier before playing deflection (returns the impulse). X play Psalm of the Damned. X can not play deflection.
> >
> > Scenario 2:
> > X bleed Y and give away impulse. Y play wake and immediately play deflection. X can not insert Psalm of the Damned between the cards because he does not have the impulse.
> >
> That's incorrect. The impulse always passes back to the acting Methuselah when an effect is played. After Y plays a Wake, X gets to play Psalm of the Damned.
>
Is this limited to action/reaction only? It certainly isn't so when it comes to combat cards and when a methuselah act (see: madness network/enkil cog).
> Suoli wrote:
>
> > I really can't understand the point you are trying to prove here.
> > Psalm of the damned can be played after a wake, yes, and so what ? Does it somewhat bend the rules ? I can't see where it should be a problem, since when the blocking minion plays his first reaction card (wake), as the acting meth, you have the priority to play any card you want to trump the block.
> >
> If Wake and Rewind Time can be played in the 'as announced' window and Psalm of the Damned can be played in the same window as Wake, it follows that Psalm of the Damned can be played in the 'as announced' window as well, despite lacking an explicit 'usable as announced' clause. Either Psalm is arbitrated to be an exception or every action modifier is playable in the 'as announced' window by default.
>
Absolutely correct, but it could no longer e used to prevent RT at that time (simply because TR is no longer legal to play when the action is announced).
What I was aiming at was that if Psalm (without special enabling text) is playable during the 'as card is played' window, then all action modifiers immediately defalt to be playable during the same window as well. Basically, Psalm lacks any text making it 'a special snowflake'.
I don't believe the intention was to allow every action modifier to be playable during this window (barring explicit restrictions), which is the main reason for this smartas article.
> Chaitan wrote:
> Is this limited to action/reaction only? It certainly isn't so when it comes to combat cards and when a methuselah act (see: madness network/enkil cog).
>
I'm not sure what makes you say that. This is directly from the rulebook:
1.6.1. General
5. Sequencing. If two or more players want to play a card or effect, the acting Methuselah plays first. At every stage, the acting player always has the opportunity to play the next card or effect. So after playing one effect, she may play another and another. Once she is finished, the opportunity passes to the defending Methuselah (in the cases of directed actions and combat), then to the rest of the Methuselahs in clockwise order from the acting Methuselah. Note that if any Methuselah uses a card or effect, the acting Methuselah again gets the opportunity to play the next effect.
> yappo wrote:
> This is my second smartass article.
>
> It should be noted that a single clarification/ruling will void the entire chain of argument I am about to present.
>
> Thesis: All action modifiers are by default playable during the acting Meth's 'as card is played', in this case referring to the action card being played.
>
Your thesis is invalid.
Rulebook 1.6.1.1 wrote
>
> Some effects can cancel a card "as it is played." These effects (and effects that grant the ability to play them, like Forced Awakening) are the only effects allowed during the "as played" time period of another card. Even drawing to replace cards comes after this time period.
>
Let's see what comes next...
> yappo wrote:
> Argument 1: The action modifier Psalm of the Damned has been ruled to be playable after a wake card is played to prevent the reacting Meth from playing more reaction cards.
>
Sure. That's the sequencing rule ( Rulebook 1.6.1.5 )
Please note the "psalm after Wake" discussion is here: [LSJ 20100221] , and the question is "Can I play Psalm after they Wake and before they declare a block attempt / Deflect ?"
The answer to that one is "yes", per the sequencing rules.
If you change the question to "Can I play Psalm as Wake is played?", the answer is "No, because it doesn't read it can be played, and there is a rule that doesn't allow it to be played in that window."
> Argument 2: Wake cards are legal to play in order to enable the playing of Rewind Time, which in turn is used to cancel the acting Meth's action card 'as card is played'.
>
Correct, per Rulebook 1.6.1.1.
> yappo wrote:
> The above statement only holds true for unambiguous action cards. The reason for this is that the 'as card is played' window ends before the 'as action is anounced' window. So, for example, you're not allowed to wait with your DI on GTU until the acting Meth has finalized the declaration if it's a bleed or moving blood to the uncontrolled region.
>
Wrong. First, fully declare action (level of discipline, targets, cost, how you will pay the cost) and play the action card, if any. There comes the "As played" window. Once that window is closed, we enter the "as announced" window.
> yappo wrote:
> It could be argued that the above holds true for any action card, unabigious or not, in which case you can never play an action modifier on your own action card until the action is fully declared (which occurs after the 'as card is played window'.
>
That's actually quite true, as long as you don't have an action modifier that reads "as the action card is played". If we had such a card, then we would have action modifiers playable in the "as played" window of an action card.
Where is the ambiguity ? If the card says it is playable, or if the rules say it is playable, then it is playable. Otherwise, it isn't.
> yappo wrote:
> This would, however, present us with another ambiguity.
>
> The 'as card is played' window isn't indivisible. I play an action card, you DI said card, a third player plays Sudden on your DI, and my action card is now played and I'm about to announce the action. Futhermore, we have an explicit ruling stating that playing a wake-card before playing Rewind Time is also legal. This last ruling allows the reacting Meth to stack reactions during the 'as cardis played' window for an action card.
>
Wrong. Fully announce and play the card, and then we enter the "as played" window, where DIs and Suddens are played.
Similarly, you don't say "I play Pentex Subversion - does someone Sudden it? No? Then it's going to be on my grand prey's Carna."
About "stacking reactions during the as played window" : We are in the as played window. Only "wakes" and cards usable in the as played window are usable. Other cards aren't. And, as longa s we're in that window, cards aren't replaced (again, Rulebook 1.6.1.1 ). No sure how many cards one could "stack" in that window.
> yappo wrote:
> Thus it follows that there is an action to react to (or wake cards wouldn't be playable in the first place), ie that the action starts before it is anounced. Following this line of reasoning it also follows that action modifiers are playable during this window, provided that they don't refer to an effect expicitly needing an action announcement.
>
The part where the action "exists" in the "as played" window is correct.
Here's a realistic example:
Conrad Adoula ("While Conrad is acting, reaction cards cost younger vampires an additional blood.") plays GTU. Ibn Khaldun plays On the Qui Vive + Rewind Time.
These two reaction cards cost a total of 4 blood to Ibn, as he is a younger vampire playing cards while Conrad is acting.
> yappo wrote:
> Let me clarify. Stacking Conditioning on GtU during the 'as card is played' window would be illegal, because the playing GtU at inferior or superior isn't determined until the 'as action is announced' window.
>
That's something you can't do, because you can't play Conditioning in the "as played" window.
> yappo wrote:
> Absolutely correct, but it could no longer e used to prevent RT at that time (simply because TR is no longer legal to play when the action is announced).
>
I was always under the impression that playing and announcing an action card is a single, uninterrupted action. But I guess that would place Seduction and RT in the same window as well, so...
Pascal, from your post above, I take it that it is impossible to use Psalm to prevent someone from playing wake and RT.
Have I uderstood this correctly?
If so, there is now that clarification on psalm which I wrote would invalidify my entire chain of arguments.
> yappo wrote:
> Pascal, from your post above, I take it that it is impossible to use Psalm to prevent someone from playing wake and RT.
>
> Have I uderstood this correctly?
>
Well, I'm pretty sure you got it, however your message isn't crystal clear.
If someone plays Wake with Evening's Freshness in the "as played" window, the acting minion can't thwart basic temporis Rewind Time with Psalm, as Psalm of the damned isn't playable in the "as played" window.
> yappo wrote:
> If so, there is now that clarification on psalm which I wrote would invalidify my entire chain of arguments.
>
It's not really a clarification. It's the Rulebook (and more precisely, the Sequencing section). LSJ's "Correct." is perfectly valid as long as you don't try to read it in another way it was written or intended. If you start wondering if Psalm can be played in the "as played" window, I recommend you check which cards can be played in the "as played" window first.
> Suoli wrote:
>
> > Chaitan wrote:
> > Is this limited to action/reaction only? It certainly isn't so when it comes to combat cards and when a methuselah act (see: madness network/enkil cog).
> >
> I'm not sure what makes you say that. This is directly from the rulebook:
>
> 1.6.1. General
> 5. Sequencing. If two or more players want to play a card or effect, the acting Methuselah plays first. At every stage, the acting player always has the opportunity to play the next card or effect. So after playing one effect, she may play another and another. Once she is finished, the opportunity passes to the defending Methuselah (in the cases of directed actions and combat), then to the rest of the Methuselahs in clockwise order from the acting Methuselah. Note that if any Methuselah uses a card or effect, the acting Methuselah again gets the opportunity to play the next effect.
>
Ah yes. Now I see the error.
My misunderstanding is that the impulse rules is not equal between methuselahs. Acting methuselah has the ability to insert cards like in the case of Psalm of the Damned. Whereas all other methuselahs has to patiently wait for the impulse.
One question that immediately pops up is how it works when reacting methuselah attempts to cancel a card as it is played when it does not have the impulse (i.e. acting methuselah wants to play more cards after the card reacting wants to cancel).
> Pascal wrote:
>
> > yappo wrote:
> > Pascal, from your post above, I take it that it is impossible to use Psalm to prevent someone from playing wake and RT.
> >
> > Have I uderstood this correctly?
> >
> Well, I'm pretty sure you got it, however your message isn't crystal clear.
> If someone plays Wake with Evening's Freshness in the "as played" window, the acting minion can't thwart basic temporis Rewind Time with Psalm, as Psalm of the damned isn't playable in the "as played" window.
>
> > yappo wrote:
> > If so, there is now that clarification on psalm which I wrote would invalidify my entire chain of arguments.
> >
> It's not really a clarification. It's the Rulebook (and more precisely, the Sequencing section). LSJ's "Correct." is perfectly valid as long as you don't try to read it in another way it was written or intended. If you start wondering if Psalm can be played in the "as played" window, I recommend you check which cards can be played in the "as played" window first.
>
Nopes, Perfectly happy now. The reason I found the LSJ ruling troublesome is that it wasn't written as you describe it. I quote:
[start quote]
> You mean, he is incorrect, though your explanation is right. You
> *can* indeed wait until they wake a vampire, then immediately play
> Psalm to tell that vampire it cannot block or play any further
> reactions. I'm 90% sure you can also play it at superior on a vampire
> that is already attempting to block to fail their block. About the
> only thing you can't do is play it in response to a minion playing a
> reaction card (well, you can, but that reaction card is already out of
> the barn, and will take effect regardless).
Correct.
[end qoute]
Note that the 'correct' refers to a text including 'or play any further reactions'. The word 'any' would arguably include RT.
> Chaitan wrote:
>
> > Suoli wrote:
> >
> > > Chaitan wrote:
> > > Is this limited to action/reaction only? It certainly isn't so when it comes to combat cards and when a methuselah act (see: madness network/enkil cog).
> > >
> > >
> > I'm not sure what makes you say that. This is directly from the rulebook:
> >
> > 1.6.1. General
> > 5. Sequencing. If two or more players want to play a card or effect, the acting Methuselah plays first. At every stage, the acting player always has the opportunity to play the next card or effect. So after playing one effect, she may play another and another. Once she is finished, the opportunity passes to the defending Methuselah (in the cases of directed actions and combat), then to the rest of the Methuselahs in clockwise order from the acting Methuselah. Note that if any Methuselah uses a card or effect, the acting Methuselah again gets the opportunity to play the next effect.
> >
> Ah yes. Now I see the error.
>
> My misunderstanding is that the impulse rules is not equal between methuselahs. Acting methuselah has the ability to insert cards like in the case of Psalm of the Damned. Whereas all other methuselahs has to patiently wait for the impulse.
>
> One question that immediately pops up is how it works when reacting methuselah attempts to cancel a card as it is played when it does not have the impulse (i.e. acting methuselah wants to play more cards after the card reacting wants to cancel).
>
This is also makes combat extremely tricky.
When playing before range combat cards acting methuselah has the option to play all cards before turning over the impulse but acting methuselah also has the option to at any stage in the before range also holding the methuselah from playing a series of cards.
Example:
Both acting and blocking methuselah has these two cards in their hand.
Drawing out the Beast
Terror Frenzy
Acting methuselah starts by playing Drawing out the beast
Acting methuselah decides to wait with terror frenzy and see what happens (gives impulse to blocking methuselah).
Blocking methuselah play Drawing out the Beast.
Before blocking methuselah can continue to play cards acting methuselah throws down a superior terror frenzy on the table stating that any further combat card now cost 1 blood extra.
Wouldn't the rules more more intuitive and easy to remember if all methuselah's followed the same sequencing rules?
> Chaitan wrote:
> Wouldn't the rules more more intuitive and easy to remember if all methuselah's followed the same sequencing rules?
>
All Methuselahs follow the same sequencing rule: "If anyone does anything, the acting Methuselah gets the impulse to do the next thing."
"If anyone does anything" can't really be more generic. It's down to 4 words.
It's not the same as MTG (where the rule is something like "Play or pass"), and I'm not doing this change as it's a heavy change with little motivation.
Combat is an even worse problem as it's possible to have a combat between two meths, none of whom is acting.
Blissful Agony at superior played by the acting Meth's minion destroys the impulse rules by forcing the opposing (read reacting) minion into combat with another minion. If said minion is controlled by a third player, then the acting/reacting dichotomy falls over and dies.
> Pascal wrote:
>
> > Chaitan wrote:
> > Wouldn't the rules more more intuitive and easy to remember if all methuselah's followed the same sequencing rules?
> >
> All Methuselahs follow the same sequencing rule: "If anyone does anything, the acting Methuselah gets the impulse to do the next thing."
>
> "If anyone does anything" can't really be more generic. It's down to 4 words.
> It's not the same as MTG (where the rule is something like "Play or pass"), and I'm not doing this change as it's a heavy change with little motivation.
>
I mean the same rules as in:
> 5. Sequencing. If two or more players want to play a card or effect, the acting Methuselah plays first. Once she is finished, the opportunity passes to the defending Methuselah (in the cases of directed actions and combat), then to the rest of the Methuselahs in clockwise order from the acting Methuselah. Note that if any Methuselah uses a card or effect, that Methuselah again gets the opportunity to play the next effect.
>
> <and I guess here is where you insert the "as played" impulse in the case of cancel cards>
>
compared to the existing rules:
> 5. Sequencing. If two or more players want to play a card or effect, the acting Methuselah plays first. At every stage, the acting player always has the opportunity to play the next card or effect. So after playing one effect, she may play another and another. Once she is finished, the opportunity passes to the defending Methuselah (in the cases of directed actions and combat), then to the rest of the Methuselahs in clockwise order from the acting Methuselah. Note that if any Methuselah uses a card or effect, the acting Methuselah again gets the opportunity to play the next effect.
>
The change as you say is huge and would require extensive thought but is it really without motivation? I've been playing since jyhad came out and still fall into logical traps like my first post in this thread.
> yappo wrote:
> Combat is an even worse problem as it's possible to have a combat between two meths, none of whom is acting.
>
> Blissful Agony at superior played by the acting Meth's minion destroys the impulse rules by forcing the opposing (read reacting) minion into combat with another minion. If said minion is controlled by a third player, then the acting/reacting dichotomy falls over and dies.
>
Who said we need an acting Methuselah in the combat?
What is needed is a "Start" point (who is the acting Methuselah in cases of Taunt the Caged Beast / Blissful Agony). [LSJ 20070319] .
> Chaitan wrote:
> The change as you say is huge and would require extensive thought but is it really without motivation? I've been playing since jyhad came out and still fall into logical traps like my first post in this thread.
>
I'm happier correcting misrouted players than digging holes
> yappo wrote:
> Combat is an even worse problem as it's possible to have a combat between two meths, none of whom is acting.
>
> Blissful Agony at superior played by the acting Meth's minion destroys the impulse rules by forcing the opposing (read reacting) minion into combat with another minion. If said minion is controlled by a third player, then the acting/reacting dichotomy falls over and dies.
>
The impulse would still pass to the acting player (by default, the player who's turn it is) after plays, who, not being involved in the combat, would most of the time pass it clockwise without playing effects. One combatant would still get to play all the cards he wants before passing impulse forward while the other could only play them one by one.
> Pascal wrote:
>
> > yappo wrote:
> > Combat is an even worse problem as it's possible to have a combat between two meths, none of whom is acting.
> >
> > Blissful Agony at superior played by the acting Meth's minion destroys the impulse rules by forcing the opposing (read reacting) minion into combat with another minion. If said minion is controlled by a third player, then the acting/reacting dichotomy falls over and dies.
> >
> Who said we need an acting Methuselah in the combat?
> What is needed is a "Start" point (who is the acting Methuselah in cases of Taunt the Caged Beast / Blissful Agony). [LSJ 20070319] .
>
The following combat cards say we need an acting Metthuselah in the combat:
Chiram's Hold
Form of Mist (agreably doesn't matter as the acting specific part refers to a window outside of combat)
Primal Instincts
More notably 6.4.1 in the core rules say we need an acting Methuselah in the combat.
Edit: Error on my side. Acting minion is needed, not acting methuselah.
> Pascal wrote:
>
> > yappo wrote:
> > The above statement only holds true for unambiguous action cards. The reason for this is that the 'as card is played' window ends before the 'as action is anounced' window. So, for example, you're not allowed to wait with your DI on GTU until the acting Meth has finalized the declaration if it's a bleed or moving blood to the uncontrolled region.
> >
> Wrong. First, fully declare action (level of discipline, targets, cost, how you will pay the cost) and play the action card, if any. There comes the "As played" window. Once that window is closed, we enter the "as announced" window.
>
This is in direct conflict with the rules book. See 6.2.1. Arguably both 6.2 and 6.2.1 aggregated creates a conflict with the concept that there is a 'as card is played' window which goes before the 'as action is announced' window, because both 6.2 and 6.2.1 places the playing of an action card after action declaration. Notably 6.2.1 explicitly states that, and I quote: "All details of the action are declared when the action is announced, including the target(s), the cost, the effects, etc. Any card required for the action is played (face up) at this time. Tap the acting minion".
Playing the card occurs during the 'as action is announced' window. I can't recall such an interpretation being used for at least the last ten years.
I agree that the rules book invalidates my interpretation as well, because according to the rules book there doesn't exist an 'as card is played' window separate from an 'as action is announced' window.
Add that the rules book also explicitly states that, and I quote: "Action modifiers and reaction cards can be played at any time before resolution during an action (unless otherwise noted on card text), with the acting Methuselah getting the opportunity to play first." Following the rules book I can most definitely stack all and any action modifier legal to play before block attempts before DI can be played.
> yappo wrote:
> The following combat cards say we need an acting Metthuselah in the combat:
>
> Chiram's Hold
>
> Form of Mist (agreably doesn't matter as the acting specific part refers to a window outside of combat)
>
> Primal Instincts
>
> More notably 6.4.1 in the core rules say we need an acting Methuselah in the combat.
>
Those effects say that they are only playable by or usable against an acting minion. That doesn't imply that there always needs to be an acting minion any more than Govern implies that there always needs to be Dominate (even if it might seem that way).
The line at the end of 6.4.1 is a noncomprehensive reminder of the usual sequencing rules, which can be found under 1.6.1 and which adequately cover combats that don't have acting minions.
> yappo wrote:
> This is in direct conflict with the rules book. See 6.2.1. Arguably both 6.2 and 6.2.1 aggregated creates a conflict with the concept that there is a 'as card is played' window which goes before the 'as action is announced' window, because both 6.2 and 6.2.1 places the playing of an action card after action declaration. Notably 6.2.1 explicitly states that, and I quote: "All details of the action are declared when the action is announced, including the target(s), the cost, the effects, etc. Any card required for the action is played (face up) at this time. Tap the acting minion".
>
Very good. So you do know that if DI/Rewind Time is played, the acting minion isn't tapped (and didn't tap). This means DI/Rewind Time/Power of All/.. are played right before the "Tap the acting minion". Thus, after "All details of the actiong are declared".
You can also have a look at the Complete Rules Reference , section IV.A.1-IV.A.3:
>
> IV. HOW TO PERFORM ACTIONS
>
> A. Declare the action. [6.2.1]
> 1- Play the action card, if any, and define the action (target, cost, etc).
> 2- Tap the acting minion.
> 3- Cards that are played "as the action is announced" may be played (other effects cannot be played until after the "as announced" stuff is finished).
>
"As played" comes before "As announced", but after terms are declared.
You can't change that, and trying to read it some other way is wrong.
Looks like a good reason to fix the rules book.
The rules reference you quote is also not written as you state.
There is a header 'A' with sub-headers '1', '2' and '3'. I can only read it as it is written:
'A' We are going to describe how an action is declared.
'1', '2' and '3'. Here are the sequential steps, in finer granularity, describing the process of declaring an action.
Or, in English: Play the action card, if any.
Depending on how we read the word 'and' (and both interpretations have been used in VTES rulings), we either simultaneously define the action, or we immediately after define the action.
Chosing targets, costs, etc is explicitly part of the 'define the action'.
Under no circumstances is it possible to read that text in a way that would make chosing targets, etc come before playing the card.
After that it's once again crystal clear. The reference is in direct conflict with the rules book, but it does indeed rule out the playing of other effects, which equally explicitly is allowed in the rules book.
Anyway, I read what you quote, and 'as played' comes either before or at the same time as when terms are declared. I can't change that, and trying to read it some other way is wrong.
> Suoli wrote:
>
> > yappo wrote:
> > The following combat cards say we need an acting Metthuselah in the combat:
> >
> > Chiram's Hold
> >
> > Form of Mist (agreably doesn't matter as the acting specific part refers to a window outside of combat)
> >
> > Primal Instincts
> >
> > More notably 6.4.1 in the core rules say we need an acting Methuselah in the combat.
> >
> Those effects say that they are only playable by or usable against an acting minion. That doesn't imply that there always needs to be an acting minion any more than Govern implies that there always needs to be Dominate (even if it might seem that way).
>
> The line at the end of 6.4.1 is a noncomprehensive reminder of the usual sequencing rules, which can be found under 1.6.1 and which adequately cover combats that don't have acting minions.
>
Fair enough. The two cards specified with effects inside the combat are invalid to play unless the opposing minion also happens to be the acting minion. Who plays cards first has nothing to do with that. I stand corrected.
> At every stage, the acting player always has the opportunity to play the next card or effect.
>
... but he should ask if any metusalehs clockwise want to cancel cards as they are played, before he plays next one.
I understand what yappo wants to say, and I think that sequence goes:
A plays GtU, asks if someone wants to cancel it, passes impulse
B wakes with forced awakening, asks if someone wants to cancel it... and now we get s'itstorm, since it is the same impulse, and it cannot be passed on if b wants to play RT. If this second impulse reaches meth A, he may play psalm, thus ending as played window of GtU, and preventing meth B from playing RT at the same time...
Ignorance is bliss.
Cypher, Matrix
> Megabaja wrote:
> If this second impulse reaches meth A, he may play psalm, thus ending as played window of GtU, and preventing meth B from playing RT at the same time...
>
This second impulse is an 'as played' impulse opened by the play of Wake with Evening's Freshness.
As long as Psalm of the Damned doesn't read "as a card is played", it's not usable in the 'as played' window.