Card idea : Soothsayer

Name: Soothsayer Cardtype: Retainer Discipline: Protean Cost: 1 blood Mortal with 1 life. [pro] When a combat involving this vampire ends and the opposing minion is not ready, put a counter on this card. You have +X hand size, where X is the number of counters on this card. No superior effect because it doesn't need any. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Why does that card require protean? It sounds more like it should require a clan. EDIT: I think actually it would be most thematic requiring a laibon. But Gangrel or Ravnos would probably be fine too.

Agree with Klaital, should be clan card (ravnos or some laibon clan - clan not all laibons). Apart from this it's very thematic (divination using a blood of dead enemies), I would just change the effect to something like le dinh tho special - you cuold look at the hand of a opposing minion controler when it leaves a ready region and discard a card from it. Would be graet for defensive and offensive play

(PRO) as above but Soothsayer have 2 life good card protean is ok for me

> Klaital wrote: > Why does that card require protean? It sounds more like it should require a clan. > > EDIT: I think actually it would be most thematic requiring a laibon. But Gangrel or Ravnos would probably be fine too. > It would be too restrictive. The card is supposed to help combat decks that have protean, either through their big star (Enkidu, Nu the Pillar, Elimelech, Wynn, Lazverinus, Karsh etc.) or through their clan discipline (mostly Gangrel). I don't want to help only the Laibon that have many good things already. > alek wrote: > Agree with Klaital, should be clan card (ravnos or some laibon clan - clan not all laibons). > Apart from this it's very thematic (divination using a blood of dead enemies), I would just change the effect to something like le dinh tho special - you cuold look at the hand of a opposing minion controler when it leaves a ready region and discard a card from it. Would be graet for defensive and offensive play > . It's an option. Mine helps when you have a Dragonbound in play or don't replace the Bum's Rush. > pcgeol wrote: > (PRO) as above but Soothsayer have 2 life > > good card protean is ok for me > Like Homonculus, but i don't feel it brings anything really. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > Like Homonculus, but i don't feel it brings anything really. > two aids from bats, not only one but ok it not so important.

Protean does seem like a silly requirement. As much as I love Homunculus... I would use "Requires and Independent vampire" as a requirement. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

> direwolf wrote: > Protean does seem like a silly requirement. As much as I love Homunculus... > > I would use "Requires and Independent vampire" as a requirement. > Why? Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

The more I read this, the more I can see it being a or a card... Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Ankha wrote: > > > direwolf wrote: > > Protean does seem like a silly requirement. As much as I love Homunculus... > > > > I would use "Requires and Independent vampire" as a requirement. > > > Why? > First of all, bring some lore to the table. I'm not a White-wolf guru, but if you quote something from a book or supplement, I will go with it. But protean is a physical discipline. The ability of the vampire to shape-shift essentially. If there were a reason only shape-shifters should have a soothsayer retainer, I would get in line. To me, the reason I say "Independent only" is that Soothsaying seems very fringe. You will find mediums or fortune tellers amongst any of the independent clans. The Camarilla and Sabbat tend to recruit/control mainstream "western civilization." I could see any of the independent clans recruiting a "soothsayer" but I couldn't see every vampire with protean recruiting a soothsayer. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

> direwolf wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > direwolf wrote: > > > Protean does seem like a silly requirement. As much as I love Homunculus... > > > > > > I would use "Requires and Independent vampire" as a requirement. > > > > > Why? > > > First of all, bring some lore to the table. I'm not a White-wolf guru, but if you quote something from a book or supplement, I will go with it. > > But protean is a physical discipline. The ability of the vampire to shape-shift essentially. If there were a reason only shape-shifters should have a soothsayer retainer, I would get in line. > > To me, the reason I say "Independent only" is that Soothsaying seems very fringe. You will find mediums or fortune tellers amongst any of the independent clans. The Camarilla and Sabbat tend to recruit/control mainstream "western civilization." > > I could see any of the independent clans recruiting a "soothsayer" but I couldn't see every vampire with protean recruiting a soothsayer. > In fact, WoD lore isn't my primary concern, more game balance. Replace "Soothsayer" by "Demon worshipper" and your background doesn't work anymore. Usually, I design first a game card, then I try to add some lore to it. This is the case. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > In fact, WoD lore isn't my primary concern, more game balance. > Replace "Soothsayer" by "Demon worshipper" and your background doesn't work anymore. > Usually, I design first a game card, then I try to add some lore to it. This is the case. > I agree, game balance should be the bottom line. But there are players who do value lore more than you and I. Presentation of your idea is important, and my criticism was based the lack of your explanation of the card concept. If your goal is to help Protean combat by giving hand size, then I have no problem with your initial idea... Except for the name. In the case of Protean, It would make sense if the retainer were a werewolf. I really don't know my werewolf lore. Is there a werewolf tribe or archtype that would fit this concept? Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

Not really sure if I see a real werewolf-protean connection in the lore (apart from being able to transform into a wolf maybe?). Isnt the werewolf connection more of a gangrel thing? The man problem trying to connect this card lore-wise is that its a retainer imho. Protean as a discipline seems very focused on your own beast and body, and not so much on influencing/recruiting others. Though I guess that if youre a scary vampire who likes to transform into a wolf or bat or meld with the earth you might have some ghouled animals? Though that is probabaly more animalism territory... But ani and pro do seem pretty made to fit together, so it's not completely off the charts. Maybe a humanish retainer would be more fitting though...a park ranger perhaps? Guarding your grounds, keeping poachers etc away from it so you can roam free there at night? Nah...probably not a good idea either....Ill keep thinking...

The reason for the Gangrel-Werewolf connection is Protean. It's a story of wolf-vampire meets lupus. You could write a disney movie about it. Also, the connection to lore doesn't have to be completely direct. Often times, powers from the Books translates well to a single card, just look at all the cards named after a discipline power. When those ideas are exhausted, the designers started thinking "What can this vampire do with this power?" rather than "How does this power translate into a card." Thinking like that grants for greater freedom of design. For example, "Torn Signpost" is not a vampiric power. But a vampire with potence would be inclined to rip a sign out from the street and use it as a weapon. In the case of this card idea, presumably this vampire with protean spends a lot of time in the woods and encounters said "soothsayer," who, being able to read the future, sees her future tied to the vampire and watches over the vampire from a distance, giving insight with each victory. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

> wastaz wrote: > Not really sure if I see a real werewolf-protean connection in the lore (apart from being able to transform into a wolf maybe?). Isnt the werewolf connection more of a gangrel thing? > Well, Shape of the Beast - a Protean power - can turn you into one or two forms. Typically, this is a bat or a wolf. You'd probably get some leniency from most storytellers if there was some very special reason for something else, though. Actually, I think in some incarnations of the WoD - particularly in some of the LARP stuff, I think - that Gangrel had the option to choose other forms than bat/wolf to represent their shape-shifty expertise. Your random Brujah with the requisite levels of Protean was stuck with the defaults.

Brujah stop learning protean after wolf claws, or in rare cases earth meld. Unless they're on Kindred: the Embraced, anyway.

> Dorrinal wrote: > Brujah stop learning protean after wolf claws, or in rare cases earth meld. Unless they're on Kindred: the Embraced, anyway. > Well, the only way you can spot a Gangrel on Kindred: the Embraced is a slightly furry goatee beard.