Important facts about the first V:EKN set in development

Dear V:TES Community: There are certain developments related to the V:EKN Design Team which I feel obligated to explain to the V:TES community. After careful consideration, consultation, and deliberation, I have decided to post these statements out of my love for the game and out of respect for the global community of V:TES players. This post may be a bit long, so please bear with me. I feel that it is important to share with everyone some facts regarding events which have transpired and to encourage you to share them as well. Most of you do not know me, so I will provide a bit of background first. I have played V:TES since 1995 but did not seriously get involved until after Bloodlines was released in 2001. Clan Assamite is my favorite, and I have had the good fortune to earn a spot on The Lasombra’s Hall of Fame, with all my winning decks including at least one Assamite vampire. My local playgroup is in Berkeley, CA. I have only been able to participate in a couple large tournaments outside my home state of California since I am a busy father of three teenagers. I am a regular player and long-time admin on JOL (Jyhad OnLine). I have been an active poster on the Usenet group and the ThePathofBlood.com. Some of my more extensive card-related proposals have been archived on TheLasombra.com. As Internet traffic has migrated, I have focused my attention on VEKN.NET. Lastly, I have served as President of the board of directors for a State of California publicly funded Charter School servicing 800 students and have served as a board member for my local soccer club with over 1000 youth players. The only way I can describe the situation is to present facts and events more or less chronologically. I apologize if it feels more like a list rather than a smooth narrative, but I believe this is a clearer and more objective way of presenting all the relevant information. I was privileged to be invited to join the V:EKN Design Team in mid-2011. This was a great honor and I jumped at the chance to participate. The last half of 2011 was both fun and productive and the active team members cultivated a great working relationship. Working anonymously, we made tremendous progress in the early stages, and I was quite proud of the product we were developing. Unfortunately, this favorable situation has taken a turn for the worse. I can no longer labor in silence when others have taken advantage of this formerly protective layer of secrecy. The V:EKN Design Team suffers from a deep dysfunction. Attempts to address these problems have been repeatedly rebuffed. As far as I can see, all options to resolve things internally with the Inner Circle have been exhausted. This has allowed the root cause of the problem to persist and grow. The main problem is the Design Team Leader. While he is a good person and a V:TES player par excellence, his project management style, or lack thereof, has left the Design Team fractured and broken. In July 2011, the V:EKN Chairman announced that the V:EKN would begin work on a new set for publication in a PDF format. He also announced the identity of the Design Team Leader at this time. While some members of the V:TES public voiced concerns about the legitimacy of such an enterprise, others were excited by the possibilities. Design Team members started work in July 2011 on the V:EKN Design Forum and there was an extensive period of spirited brainstorming. However, the Design Team Leader was absent for most of this time. He was gone so long it appeared he abandoned his post. In fact, he was replaced by an Interim Design Team Leader in August, though this fact was not communicated openly. This Interim Design Team Leader’s initiative, combined with the results of Ginés Quiñonero’s public poll on VEKN.NET, helped to coalesce the ideas for the set into three particular themes. The active Design Team members took these themes to heart and proceeded to focus the set based on the needs of the game of V:TES, drafts of cards which were created, and their own enthusiasm. The Inner Circle had charged us with these tasks and wanted us to emulate LSJ’s design philosophy and process as much as possible. We set to work on these themes and made significant progress. Over the course of the next three months, three Design Team members stepped up in the midst of this leadership vacuum. They diligently pushed the project along developing a process of drafting, editing, and finalizing card texts in concert with the V:EKN Rules Director. They crafted the vast majority of the set which was distributed for Round 1 of playtest on January 5, 2012. Fully 34 of the 35 cards which were prepared for playtest originated from one of these three team members. The 35th card was an absent designer’s idea which was built upon. There was an enormous amount of analytical work done to consider canon, out of clan disciplines, titles, and capacities for the vampires based on existing Group 4/5 needs. Library cards, which functionally have a greater impact on game balance, underwent many draft iterations before even being sent to the Rules Director for consideration. To provide some standard of reference for the relative amount of work done on the cards sent to Round 1 of playtest, consider the number of posts on the Design Team forum. There were over 1050 posts on VEKN.NET between July 27, 2011 and January 5, 2012 on the Round 1 playtest cards. This represents roughly 30 posts per card. Of those posts, 96.2% were attributable to any of the three primary designers or the Rules Director, who had to sign off on any card text prior to submission to playtest. Some 3.7% were attributable to other Design Team members who drifted in and out of the process. Of those 1050 posts, only one (1) was made by the Design Team Leader. The active Design Team members achieved consensus regarding the direction of the set. Input from all inactive design team members was wanted and appreciated, though scarcely offered, and ample time to participate was given. All cards received full sign-off from the Rules Director. The active Design Team members prepared both of the Designer’s Diaries which were published for the V:TES community. Art Direction was proceeding along smoothly, with one active Design Team member securing the services of several professional V:TES artists to voluntarily do artwork for a dozen cards. The same active Design Team member took personal initiative to jump-start the process to get the PDFs for the set created by working with a known V:TES player and software design guru. In December 2011, the Design Team Leader briefly returned and then disappeared from the V:EKN forums yet again. At this time, there was discussion among the V:EKN Inner Circle about how to resolve the problem of the Design Team Leader's chronic absenteeism, including the possibility of appointing another person as an official Co-Leader. For political reasons, no action was taken. I feel it is also pertinent to point out a recurring pattern of behavior by the Design Team Leader. From my point of view, his recent time as United States National Coordinator has been unusual because other volunteers have done the actual organization of premier national events. Additionally, it is my understanding that he was expected to contribute heavily to the official V:TES Strategy Guide back in 2005, but he failed to meet most of his obligations so others had to provide much of that content before publication. Prior to the return of the Design Team Leader, the set was on a great trajectory to be completed in the first half of 2012. To summarize, over this three to four month period, three primary designers and the Rules Director, along with substantial help from art direction and a software design guru, developed and smoothly executed a consensus driven decision model to refine and hone the set. This was all done in the absence of the Design Team Leader and without objection from the V:EKN Inner Circle, who were regularly kept up-to-date. Conservatively, the three active Design Team members and Rules Director had invested over 1000 total hours on various aspects of the project and were the driving force behind the progress that was achieved. At this point in time, a series of events transpired which have created a lot of unnecessary chaos. In my opinion, in a professionally run organization, none of the following situations would have occurred. Good work would have been rewarded and acknowledged, while poor habits would not have been tolerated. At the beginning of January 2012, the Design Team Leader returned, seemingly not of his own volition, but only when he learned that the active Design Team had already completed the vast majority of the work necessary to start playtest. When he returned, he and the V:EKN Chairman said that he wanted to work with the existing Design Team. However, in reality, his actions made it appear that he was attempting to seize control of the process by alienating those who had already done the work which he had been expected to do. The Design Team Leader repeatedly accused the three primary designers of “rushing” the process, when in fact almost four months of significant back and forth discussion had occurred to refine the set prior to Round 1 of playtest. It seemed rushed to him because he did not participate at all during the previous card creation, selection, vetting, and honing process. The Design Team Leader has not demonstrated the ability to manage a project and treat his fellow team members in a professional way. He has not demonstrated the initiative to lead the project and proactively start each new and necessary step. His multiple prolonged absences and poor work ethic have undermined the trust of the primary designers of the set. He has repeatedly fractured the Design Team, causing unnecessary tension and stress. On multiple occasions, the primary set designers have attempted to reach out personally to the Design Team leader. Those efforts have not been reciprocated. Even though the set had already gone through months of shaping and scrutiny, the Design Team Leader has been acting as if in a preliminary brainstorming mode the entire time. Mentally, he has not gone through the critical vetting process of narrowing down concepts into a well-honed and themed set. The Design Team Leader tried to heavy-handedly impose his will on the process rather than achieve a good working relationship with the primary designers. This has caused significant strife among the Design Team. Extraneous themes have been introduced by the Design Team Leader apparently as a way to wedge his cards into the process without consideration for the set synergy as a whole. The Design Team Leader’s management style has resulted in significant delays to both the art and playtest processes. In fact, because of these actions, the primary designers petitioned the Inner Circle for changes at the beginning of February 2012. The primary designers were most concerned about the Design Team Leader’s lack of leadership qualities and poor management style. While willing to collaborate with that individual as equals, they did not appreciate being bossed around while doing all the work, particularly from someone who had been chronically absent and non-participatory. Recognizing inherent problems to the organizational structure and the working environment, they asked to have the Design Team be split into two concurrent development teams so each could go forward and energy would not be spent on infighting. Separating these responsibilities between two groups would promote positive action toward completion of the set. Additionally, I suspected the latecomers would want to have some of their card ideas represented, and even proposed reserving several card slots for their ideas and offering to help them hone their raw ideas as we had been doing for the previous several months. To address these concerns, the Inner Circle conducted a meeting via Skype on February 5th. Unfortunately, this petition request was denied. As part of this same meeting, the card set size was reconfirmed at exactly 35 cards, no more, no less. It has recently come to my attention, that just prior to the Inner Circle meeting, the Design Team Leader tried to have the three primary designers removed from the Design Team. Fortunately, that request was not supported by a majority of the Inner Circle. However, the team was henceforth irrevocably broken. To their credit, the Inner Circle did see it fit to appoint a well-respected third party and acting Inner Circle member to join the Design Team as Production Manager. This person was charged with helping to clarify the process and making sure the Design Team Leader would be held accountable. The V:EKN Chairperson believed that being monitored by a third party would be a strong rebuke of the Design Team Leader. The Production Manager quickly made some significant efforts to try to ease tensions among team members. Several deadlines and milestones were set and ground rules were established that all future discussion was to occur on the forum. However, the Design Team Leader persisted to cause trouble by ignoring these guidelines. As I predicted, the Inner Circle’s decision to disallow two distinct card design teams, both under their auspices, has caused the project to implode. By mandating that the set size not increase despite the return of two absentee designers, the Inner Circle implicitly set up a “zero sum game” where new cards could only be added if others were cut. This situation minimized any incentives for designers to help with cards which they felt were inappropriate for the set and, in fact, encouraged antagonistic behavior. Furthermore, the Design Team Leader and the other oft-absent designer flooded the Design Forum with an inordinate number of underdeveloped ideas with the expectation that the three primary designers would spend significant time fixing them. In their own words, those two were just “spitballing” and waiting to see what would stick. Even the Production Manager commented on the sheer number of unnecessary new card threads. In response, the primary designers intentionally avoided participation in discussion of most new rudimentary card proposals. There was no reason to put hard work into cards which did not fit the understood themes for the set, and even less reason to invest time and energy to help out those who stood to benefit at our expense, particularly those who had demonstrated they were irresponsible several times previously. The Design Team Leader was next given a golden opportunity to make things right among the team members. He and the Production Manager proposed a new consensus-driven process which was supposed to guide card selection for Round 2 of playtest. Unfortunately, that consensus driven process was ultimately not adhered to by the Design Team Leader. The three primary designers met all of the Production Manager’s internally published deadlines, while the Design Team Leader and the V:EKN Chairperson did not. Many new cards which the Design Team Leader had proposed were being crammed into the next round of playtest without due process. In contravention of established practice, the new card texts he proposed were still unfinished drafts when they were approved for Round 2 by the V:EKN Chairman. The Design Team Leader attempted to include cards which had not been approved by the Rules Director and to make functional changes which had not been discussed by any other members of the Design Team. The Design Team Leader expediently ignored his own process in order to circumvent full consideration for consensus by the entire team. And, in conjunction with the V:EKN Chairman, he unilaterally decided on the contents of the cards for Round 2, flouting the previous themes, and pushing cards through quickly without thorough, proper vetting. He disenfranchised the rest of the Design Team by working behind their backs, precluding them from providing input or even discussing the issues. Other Design Team members internally voiced their unequivocal opposition to these actions which are contrary to the processes which had been agreed upon. As a result, the V:EKN Chairman temporarily suspended development of the set on February 23, 2012 and called for the Inner Circle to think about how to proceed. In a spirit of cooperation, one of the primary Design Team members, who is also an Inner Circle member, wrote to the V:EKN Chairman with some suggestions. The Chairman did not respond and as of this post has still not yet responded. Instead, on February 27, 2012, the Chairman sent an email saying that the Inner Circle “had developed a new plan for going forward” and that the “statement represents the unanimous decision of the Inner Circle.” Apparently this was done through a series of Inner Circle e-mails that specifically excluded the aforementioned Inner Circle member, though it did include other Inner Circle members involved to varying degrees in the Design Team. This is especially egregious since the issue of concern was about violations of due process within the Design Team. By specifically excluding a single individual from the Inner Circle discussion, the V:EKN Chairman compounded the problem with a more serious violation of protocol. This flagrant disregard by the V:EKN Inner Circle Chairman toward due process and another one Inner Circle member calls into question the integrity of the entire unelected body which has faced legitimacy questions in the past. As a result of these actions, it has become clear to me that the V:EKN does not value the contributions I or my colleagues have made toward the new set. It saddens me that this process has become so derailed in the past two months. My dedicated colleagues and I have explored all feasible internal routes to collaboratively address this situation, but have only been met with opposition. There was a great opportunity here, but lack of clarity, poor oversight, negligence and petty infighting have ruined that which was once so promising. I still believe this set has the potential to be a significant milestone in the history of V:TES and its future direction. Unfortunately, I have serious concerns about the unethical violations of process and the abrupt change of direction for the set. I am concerned this jeopardizes the quality of the set and the integrity and reputation of the V:EKN. Since the V:TES community has a vested interest in the success of this project, I feel that you have the right to know about these issues and how problematic they have become. Jeff Kuta Vallejo, CA * This document has been publicly posted to VEKN.NET, rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad, and BoardGameGeek.com and may be freely redistributed. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

Public mudslinging? You have set my new personal record for "how low can you go". No comment needed.

> johannes wrote: > Public mudslinging? > Mudslinging? It seems like quite a well-written, detailed piece from here. > johannes wrote: > You have set my new personal record for "how low can you go". No comment needed. > I'm pretty sure that you will need to comment on the concerns raised. A well-respected person following all possible processes and feeling pressured to go public? Not just something people will ignore because you tell them to.

I deeply appreciate the fact that worries are publically expressed. Hiding that kind of stuff tend to make thing worse more than anything else. Not that it mean I blindly believe everything on the post. Johannes, if you believe the original post being a load of lies, you would be a lot more convincing by actually pointing inconsistencies or inacurracies. > Jeff wrote: > At this point in time, a series of events transpired which have created a lot of unnecessary chaos. In my opinion, in a professionally run organization, none of the following situations would have occurred. Good work would have been rewarded and acknowledged, while poor habits would not have been tolerated. > This passage made me smile. I don't know whether you never worked in a private firm or I need to immediatly find a new job, because I never, ever see a "professionaly run organization" like that

Very hard to comment anything about this post because I know absolutely nothing of developing of new set and how it is done. Also it doesn't me make feel so good about whole progress with these kind of posts. But really problem for me is total secretly of developing new set. There are many mentions Inner Circle etc in the post. I have no idea what Inner Circle is and what it does. Neither has majority of players. I feel this set is designed for and by Inner Circle and not for normal players. There could be some designer blog or even more interviews in Cause & Effect show. I hope design team would use community more. Blog or even a design one card competition would go long way. I really want to make Vtes community better and there should be topics thinking of that. EDIT I think Jeffs post is good even whatever value it holds

> johannes wrote: > Public mudslinging? You have set my new personal record for "how low can you go". No comment needed. > I don't know anything about the events Jeff describes. I don't know the people involved, and I can't say anything about the validity of his claims. But, even to me, it's clear that his post is careful and deliberate. It's not something slapped together and sent in the heat of anger. It's clearly an attempt to solve a problem, not to add to it. I got the clear impression that making this post, for Jeff, was a last resort, after many other approaches to solve the problem had failed. Whether there were other avenues that should have been pursued before this post was made, I don't know, but I think it's clear that Jeff feels there weren't, and it seems like he's put a lot of thought into that. Even if one were to disagree, I think it should be done respectfully. Jeff doesn't insult anyone. He doesn't call people names. He doesn't swear. He's very clearly trying to be part of the solution. Based on all of this, Johannes, I have to say that I disagree with EVERYTHING you say in your reply. - Public mudslinging? That pretty clearly isn't the intent. - Talking about your personal record for low behavior? I feel like you're exaggerating here. I've seen more unpleasant and disrespectful posts in the deck building forum. - No comment needed? If this prominent and respected a member of the game's community has a serious enough issue that he produces a post this long and detailed about it, I think some comment is definitely needed! Please, folks, whatever you think about this, take the high road. Think before you post. Agreeing or disagreeing is fine, but don't be dismissive or disrespectful. Be part of the solution, not part of the dysfunction.

> Surreal wrote: > But really problem for me is total secretly of developing new set. There are many mentions Inner Circle etc in the post. I have no idea what Inner Circle is and what it does. Neither has majority of players. I feel this set is designed for and by Inner Circle and not for normal players. There could be some designer blog or even interviews in Cause & Effect show. > Here is the Inner Circle: www.vekn.net/index.php/vampire-elder-kindred-network/inner-circle-list Here is a description of the V:EKN: www.vekn.net/ Here is the designer´s blog: www.vekn.net/index.php/designers-diary

While I read this (wholly inappropriate) post I just pictured a baby crying. But I got to the end and became very disappointed in the Inner Circle's behavior, as described by Jeff. It would be great to get their side of the story here. In before thread is locked!

> Surreal wrote: > There are many mentions Inner Circle etc in the post. I have no idea what Inner Circle is and what it does. Neither has majority of players. I feel this set is designed for and by Inner Circle and not for normal players. > vekn.net/index.php/vampire-elder-kindred-network/inner-circle-list They're the "Administrative Board". I'm not exactly sure what they do, but that's how they're described on vekn.net/index.php/vekn-faq .

> Ohlmann wrote: > I deeply appreciate the fact that worries are publically expressed. Hiding that kind of stuff tend to make thing worse more than anything else. Not that it mean I blindly believe everything on the post. > > Johannes, if you believe the original post being a load of lies, you would be a lot more convincing by actually pointing inconsistencies or inacurracies. > If the members of the Design Team were not able to work out their differences adding hundreds of people to the discussion via this forum will not help matters. As you noted, this is one person's opinion of how things transpired. There have been many missteps in this first set design and plenty of blame to go around. The V:EKN Inner Circle will continue to do whatever we can to deliver the best set possible. _________________ Robert Goudie

> Dorrinal wrote: > While I read this (wholly inappropriate) post I just pictured a baby crying. But I got to the end and became very disappointed in the Inner Circle's behavior, as described by Jeff. It would be great to get their side of the story here. > > In before thread is locked! > Nobody is going to lock this thread. We will prepare a response. We have just become aware of this breach of confidence and trust, so it will take some time to do this. And yes, spilling lots of information that has been entrusted to you in confidentiality qualifies as mudslinging for me.

> Robert wrote: > If the members of the Design Team were not able to work out their differences adding hundreds of people to the discussion via this forum will not help matters. > The idea is not the notion of adding the opinions of the mass. It's to avoid secrecy that all too often wrap dirty political resolution. If everybody but Jeff is really full of good will, having a bit of transparency will only hurt Jeff. It's likely that some peoples, maybe including Jeff, have more than a bit of mud and ulterior motives, and I fully believe that being at the forelight will force them to either abandon thoses plans or reveal thems.

> But really problem for me is total secretly of developing new set. There are many mentions Inner Circle etc in the post. I have no idea what Inner Circle is and what it does. Neither has majority of players. I feel this set is designed for and by Inner Circle and not for normal players. There could be some designer blog or even more interviews in Cause & Effect show. > I've been saying this for months, but all it did was get me -25 karma when it was still there and snarky replies on basically every post I made regarding the topic. More clarity was promised, which was followed suit by a Developers Blog but the last news entry is dated almost 2 months ago. Unfortunate as it is, the described chain of events doesn't comes as a surprise to me. > I hope design team would use community more. Blog or even a design one card competition would go long way. I really want to make Vtes community better and there should be topics thinking of that. > Unfortunate as it is, the current IC members and by extension card designers don't understand that the most important quality in a leader is the ability to communicate. This is even moreso the case when your only way of communication is the internet. What the IC and the VEKN as a whole needs is someone with decent writing skills to keep the community up to date about events and stay in touch with the community. Look at the often-quoted Star Trek community website (www.trekcc.org/): it's up to date, is pleasant to read (unlike this silly black and red) has news headlines, articles, hosts resources such as deck building tools and tons and tons more. THAT is what this community should look like if it's going to be remotely successfull in the long run. All we have is a glorified forum.

> finbury wrote: > I got the clear impression that making this post, for Jeff, was a last resort, after many other approaches to solve the problem had failed. Whether there were other avenues that should have been pursued before this post was made, I don't know, but I think it's clear that Jeff feels there weren't, and it seems like he's put a lot of thought into that. Even if one were to disagree, I think it should be done respectfully. > It was the last resort in having his way at all cost. First he tried to blackmail us with it, though. The problem is if I need to respond in detail I have to break my promise of confidence I have given to other people and I am not ready to do that. The Inner Circle and the rest of the design team is going to put together a response which will try to address the points while being respectful.

> Izaak wrote: > Unfortunate as it is, the current IC members and by extension card designers don't understand that the most important quality in a leader is the ability to communicate. This is even moreso the case when your only way of communication is the internet. What the IC and the VEKN as a whole needs is someone with decent writing skills to keep the community up to date about events and stay in touch with the community. Look at the often-quoted Star Trek community website (www.trekcc.org/): it's up to date, is pleasant to read (unlike this silly black and red) has news headlines, articles, hosts resources such as deck building tools and tons and tons more. THAT is what this community should look like if it's going to be remotely successfull in the long run. > > All we have is a glorified forum. > Manygood points, Izaak. I've always thought the ST community was fantastic. Note, though, that they've had years to get to this point. Hopefully, it won't take us as long to get the hang of it. There are always opportunities for individuals who want to contribute to the community to contribute. Nobody needs a vekn sanction to provide, for example, articles and deck building tools. It will be easier then for the VEKN to then see that person's contribution and sanction it (make it official or add it to the vekn.net site or whatever) if all are in agreement. What I've seen over the years is a lot of "hey we should do this or that" type posts but when it comes down to it, we have few people in the community who are willing to make the committment necessary to get things done and keep them going. We need a larger base of committed volunteers to make more things happen. -Robert _________________ Robert Goudie

> johannes wrote: > Nobody is going to lock this thread. We will prepare a response. > Breath-taking. "No comment needed" to "We will prepare a response" in how long? You chronically mis-judged your first response.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > johannes wrote: > > Nobody is going to lock this thread. We will prepare a response. > > > Breath-taking. > "No comment needed" to "We will prepare a response" in how long? > You chronically mis-judged your first response. > You have a point. Yeah I got angry for a moment, I usually do. Because I was very disappointed about the massive breach of trust. Upon more careful consideration I find that this will require a large follow-up, which consumes time that could have been invested into something more useful. My initial reaction is always to reject that kind of time-wasting unless I realize it cannot be avoided.

I'd prefer you keep this in the tight circle were it belongs. I want a functioning organization and the end product is what I am conserned about. Will the set when it's done live up to the standard that CCP/WW had with thier sets? Sorry about sounding unsympathetic, but the truth is that it's the end result that matters not the politics behind the design team. Simply put: I want my set and I want it to be good. The drama is not that important to me. Isak Esbjörnsson Bjärmark

> johannes wrote: > > > jamesatzephyr wrote: > > You chronically mis-judged your first response. > > > You have a point. Yeah I got angry for a moment, I usually do. > You're the chair of V:EKN. You don't get to just label people as mudslingers. Your actions represent V:EKN. Bottom-line: when someone says V:EKN's Inner Circle is dysfunctional and the Chair's response is to kick off hurling insults, then yes, V:EKN's Inner Circle is dysfunctional. Chronically, emphatically, publicly so.

> What I've seen over the years is a lot of "hey we should do this or that" type posts but when it comes down to it, we have few people in the community who are willing to make the committment necessary to get things done and keep them going. > What I have seen over the years is many "newcomers" offering their assistance in one way or another and then being turned down because it was not required. What I have seen is many enthousiastic players run into a wall or bureaucracy and people that place themselves above the community. Organizations need new, fresh blood to keep moving forward, yet the entirety of the IC-member were appointed based on their past contributions. VEKN needs new, enthousiastic people to contribute and keep the community interested. I have a lot of respect for Johannes as a person and for what he did for the game with vekn.de when it was still run by CCP. Similarly, I have a lot of respect for Giñes (who I never met in person) and for what he did for the community in Spain. I just don't think they are particular good leaders. Both Johannes' posts in this thread are as much evidence of that as anything. Whatever transpired between Jeff and the IC on the hidden forums, the ONLY correct replies to the original posts were either no reply at all or "Thank you for voicing your concerns, I will reply to them later this week" or something along the lines. Instead he accuses Jeff of mud-throwing and blackmailing, which may or may not be the case, but we "plebs" CANNOT KNOW THAT so all we see is the guy that's supposed to be in charge bitch at a well-written and elaborate post writting by a respected community member. The thing is, doing a lot for VTES doesn't entitle you to be in it's borad of directors and neither does it make you a good, inspiring leader. It's also not a requirement to be a leader if you want to make a significant contribution to this community. For example, I find Jeff Thompson's devotion and contribution to V:TES on his own website and this website BY FAR the best that could ever happen to VTES and yet, he's not even National Coordinator, let alone an IC member. > We need a larger base of committed volunteers to make more things happen. > Then what you need to do is specify and communicate these needs. Figure out what you need and make people volunteer. Let them try for a month or so and if they're doing great keep them, otherwise find someone else. Get in touch with NCs and active players/forum contributors. Demote inactive IC members and replace them with people that want to help out. Stop the secrecy. You can't sit on your hidden IC forum making seemingly random decisions and then expect hundreds of people to just follow your lead "because you say so". Society doesn't work that way.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > You're the chair of V:EKN. You don't get to just label people as mudslingers. Your actions represent V:EKN. > > Bottom-line: when someone says V:EKN's Inner Circle is dysfunctional and the Chair's response is to kick off hurling insults, then yes, V:EKN's Inner Circle is dysfunctional. Chronically, emphatically, publicly so. > I am the chairman but I am also a person and a player. Sometimes I represent the V:EKN and then I state that in my statement and sign with "The chairman of the V:EKN". Sometimes I represent a person, and I think that is valid. We are not talking about the presidency of the states here. Also "kick off hurling insults" is a mis-representation. I voiced my opinion that breaking someones trust is "a low", which I full stand behind and that is not an insult it is a matter of decency. And when he states things that he got 3rd hand and that are meant to put people involved in a bad light but are not relevant to the matter (the "players guide" thing) that pretty much qualifies as "mud-slinging".

> johannes wrote: > > > jamesatzephyr wrote: > > You're the chair of V:EKN. You don't get to just label people as mudslingers. Your actions represent V:EKN. > > > > Bottom-line: when someone says V:EKN's Inner Circle is dysfunctional and the Chair's response is to kick off hurling insults, then yes, V:EKN's Inner Circle is dysfunctional. Chronically, emphatically, publicly so. > > > I am the chairman but I am also a person and a player. Sometimes I represent the V:EKN > When responding to a critique of the V:EKN, you represent the V:EKN. Pretending otherwise is again evidence of the dysfunctionality of key Inner Circle personnel. > johannes wrote: > Also "kick off hurling insults" is a mis-representation. > Not in this universe it ain't.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > johannes wrote: > > Also "kick off hurling insults" is a mis-representation. > > > Not in this universe it ain't. > That is a very strong argument.

> johannes wrote: > > > jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > > > johannes wrote: > > > Also "kick off hurling insults" is a mis-representation. > > > > > Not in this universe it ain't. > > > That is a very strong argument. > Let's try it very simply. Someone posts a well-written, calm, rational critique of the V:EKN. You label it mud-slinging. <--- This is an insult. If you do not understand that this is an insult, you need to stop posting. You have already dug an enormous hole for yourself. Please stop. Let someone on the Inner Circle save you from yourself, because you clearly don't have the skills to do it. (This, as it goes, is also an insult. But I don't represent the V:EKN. You do. Man up.)

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > Let's try it very simply. > > Someone posts a well-written, calm, rational critique of the V:EKN. > You label it mud-slinging. <--- This is an insult. > > If you do not understand that this is an insult, you need to stop posting. You have already dug an enormous hole for yourself. Please stop. Let someone on the Inner Circle save you from yourself, because you clearly don't have the skills to do it. > > (This, as it goes, is also an insult. But I don't represent the V:EKN. You do. Man up.) > You're inflaming a bad situation with your totally unrelated discussion. You're the douche in this scenario. Johannes might be the VEKN chairman, but he's also a person. It's unfair and juvenile to not allow him a temporary lapse in judgment. As a community we need support for the VEKN to keep the VEKN. If it loses its support, we might as well kiss a centralized player organization good-bye. I don't want that. I assume most reading this forum doesn't want this either. Try to take some responsibility for this organization instead of trying your utmost to raze it. Adam Esbjörnsson, Prince of Örebro

I have to back up Johannes here. Jeff signed a NDA that stated that he would not talk about the design process. Jeff worked on the material Jeff broke trust by violating a NDA that he signed. Johannes is reacting to a very well thought out criticism of the design process of the new set. Unfortunately, Jeff broke trust and threw the delicacies of the design process of the new set to the rough handling of the court of public opinion. Johnannes has done nothing wrong except try to protect the next phase of VTES so that new life can be breathed into something that we all treasure. While I am not involved in the design process any more than submitting some artwork for review, I have to say that while Jeff's reasons may have been well-intentioned he abused the trust of those who he was cooperating with by making this a much bigger problem by distracting everyone from solving his perceived design problems and instead having to do public relations damage control.

Interesting. When you said, that Jeff tried to blackmail the VEKN with this, just admitted that what he said has foundation, at least some. If the IC knew that the design team is not in proper understanding, or that the leader tries to "rape" the whole process, than they should have intervened either one way or another. One thing should be clear: NO PERSON IS BIGGER THAN THE GAME. If someone is not capable in his position then he should be substituted. Every player anticipates this set, and everybody wants it to be very well-designed, proper, usable, etc. This secrecy what is held is just alienating the players. Let the community have it's say about the cards, the theme, etc. The create-a-card contest seems like a very good idea. I don't care what you said, or how you said it. I only care about the set and the date when I can see it, or know anything about it. If the accusations are true, admit it and make the the appropriate decisions, appoint whoever you want, solve the animosity. If they're false, then prove it with something (not just with some good-for-nothing public statement).

The community support the VEKN, that should be clear. We are just afraid that our beloved game will suffer because of some internal affairs.

I for one am happy to wait until a response is put together. I would have preferred that Jeff go to the playtest team first to help mitigate this issue of NDAs. Now that we are airing the dirty laundry, I'm anxious to hear what the person(s) in question have to say before passing my own judgement or jumping into some flame war. Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

To be honest with those above who are calling for 'greater transparency'... 1) We do not need 'greater transparency' in the design process. How the cards are designed should not by default be a populist decision; populist politics tends to be terrible, so why do we think that populist VTES would be much better? It has been said plenty of times: Look at the "New Card Ideas Forum" and the Moderators of that forum. Those people are involved in the design of new cards or high enough in the VEKN that they might as well be involved. These ideas, created by the players, are on open view. Which ideas are accepted, modified, adapted, copied and/or ignored by the Design Team is up to them. 2) The Playtesters are there to help give the Design Team a manageable public response to the feedback. We, while a chosen group, are by no means homogenous or even people with similar experience, tournament ratings, preferred deck types or even personality. I suspect that we were partly chosen because we can articulate a point, appear to come from different views of the game, are active members of the VTES community and are willing to be constructive with others ideas. I'm sure that some of the Design Team can find me antagonistic, even maybe belligerant, about ideas at times (I apologise to anyone who finds me that way at times). I would hope not to offend them with any rants I may have given, but the reason I may do so as a Playtester is purely because I want the next VTES set (and the set after that and so on) to make everyone's eyes spin with posibilities. I want to see all of the players in my playgroup look at the new set of cards and be excited. I want them to look at vampires and barely be able to stop themselves from trying to build decks around them. I want them to look at crypt cards and have those same feelings. I want these cards to make players want to build new types of decks (while they may fit into existing archetypes). 3) While I understand there are many keen, active volunteers in the forums and community... not all of them should be included because larger teams tend to have more troubles. They have troubles with deadlines, trouble with 'getting along', trouble with 'shared vision', troubles with 'factionlising' and so on. Like I've heard said many times "In a group of 10 people you can usually get at least 11 opinions". For logistical reasons, it helps to have a smaller design team and potentially a moderate-sized Playtesting Team. It's not that you aren't a valued VTES Player, VEKN Community Member or your opinions don't count; in my view they do count. But the logistics of large groups can be hard, and for that reason it is easier to have a small team which means leaving people out. While I am upset that there is such a deep rift forming within the VEKN-Teams that Jeff felt his only option was to take this course of action (and I understand both Johannes' side and Jeff's side of this), I am hoping that this will lead to three things: a) A stronger design team, b) a better system for developing new sets & testing the sets, and c) VTES stays alive with new exciting sets. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

VEKN members should probably stop posting in this thread until the formal response is made, arguing with forum members is not helping their case. Also, how can the VEKN even enforce NDAs? They don't have a license for setting or mechanics. Darker Days Radio - The World of Darkness Podcast

whoo boy. What a can of worms. Vampire: the Eternal Struggle is no longer published by a company seeking to gain profit from selling the cards. the V:EKN expansion is a player created venture. It should not try to emulate the methods employed by WotC, WW or CCP in developing a card game. Get with the times. When it was announced, the V:KEN expansion was supposed to be a print-n-play expansion (partly to do with legal reasons, partly to do with financial reasons.) V:EKN has the opportunity to do something unique. Print-n-play can be used to an advantage. Card text never has to be set in stone. We already have "card text migrations" and newer printings of old cards that overwrite the old tezt. If we can print these cards ourselves at our leisure and our cost, why should they be set in stone when they are released? We already verify existing printed cards using an electronic database of the cards. Cards can be released in "versions" much like software. Yes, please, have a certain amount of closed testing. But after they are released, and after other cards are released, revise the card text as needed. You can use a "card text migration" or require players to use the most current printout of the the card in question. In short: don't do things as they've been done in the past. Evolve. V:EKN has already taken the first step by attempting to produce a fan created expansion. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

Agreed. Guys, it's always sad and disappointing when tensions reach the point that trust is broken and insults are tossed - but you're all posting emotively when at the end of the day, two facts remain prevalent: 1. No matter how much legislation you attach, this is still only a game. 'Our' game, and one we're all attached to, but worth recognising. 2. Everyone will want the same thing from their POV - the best addition to the game you can possibly produce. Personally, I'd say the best thing to do would be to take the laundry back inside, shout it out if you have to and clear your systems and the air, and then consider your options objectively. Then, take advantage of what the software development (particularly Open Source and some areas of games) have learnt - at least partially transparent development can be healthy. Before any emotive replies get typed, just ask yourself 'Is this going to help us get that set out the door in a satisfactory manner?' Here we go again.... Dave Knowles (Advanced) Sabbat Bishop of Manchester

The in-house channels obviously were not working before, so why would it work again now if chosen? Professionalism was breached beforehand in many ways, and irrevocably when power politics entered the IC decision process. There's a reason why secrecy supports power dynamics and tends to be inimical to healthy collaboration. I want to play VTES as a game, not live it. As a player, give me sunlight, please.

The OP's post, whilst unfortunately breaking some cone of silence, was well structured, measured in response and insightful to say the least. The last thing I or (I should think) anyone else wants to see is power politics getting in the way of our beloved V:tES progressing forwards. Maybe a little transparency would go a ways to alleviating our fears? Aaron Archbishop Adelaide

> Lost_Heretic wrote: > Also, how can the VEKN even enforce NDAs? They don't have a license for setting or mechanics. > Quite simply: we cannot enforce them. They are a formal representation of an agreement between members of this community, I would dare say friends. They are just clearly showing that this agreement is there. If someone choses to ignore the agreement we cannot impose any penalties upon him, however it will show for the future that simply he cannot be trusted.

> Azel wrote: > The in-house channels obviously were not working before, so why would it work again now if chosen? Professionalism was breached beforehand in many ways, and irrevocably when power politics entered the IC decision process. There's a reason why secrecy supports power dynamics and tends to be inimical to healthy collaboration. > > I want to play VTES as a game, not live it. As a player, give me sunlight, please. > Yes mistakes were made and there was an ongoing process to fix them. He decided not to take part anymore and go public. Nobody tried to play power politics out of the IC. I am looking forward to our equally well formualated statement, that will not be backed by one person but by many and will try to "set things right" as much as possible.

> johannes wrote: > > > Lost_Heretic wrote: > > Also, how can the VEKN even enforce NDAs? They don't have a license for setting or mechanics. > > > Quite simply: we cannot enforce them. They are a formal representation of an agreement between members of this community, I would dare say friends. They are just clearly showing that this agreement is there. If someone choses to ignore the agreement we cannot impose any penalties upon him, however it will show for the future that simply he cannot be trusted. > zOMG, I sincerely hope that I don't have to read this as an issue of "deal-breaking metagaming" vendettas leaking into Real Life. Intimations of circles of trust and potential ostracism certainly does not bode well for our community. Again, I hope we can play.the.game. (courtesy of... was it Ashur?) and not have to live it. Seriously, this is why secrecy and power structures don't look like they're helping us. There has to be a better way.

I just came here to say that I invented a word for this thread: Kutastrophe. That is all. Carry on.

Some of the cards played during this drama. Ambush Blackmail Enrage Political Antagonist Political Backlash Political Struggle Power of One Propaganda Chain of Command

> chaitan wrote: > Some of the cards played during this drama. > You forgot Lunatic Eruption

> chaitan wrote: > Some of the cards played during this drama. > > Ambush > Blackmail > Enrage > Political Antagonist > Political Backlash > Political Struggle > Power of One > Propaganda > Chain of Command > You forgot Wrath of the Inner Circle and Protect Thine Own.

Seen this before in volunteer development of online games. Its relatively easy to fix. The IC should define a system of how decisions will be made (either by majority of the design team or by top-down decision making by leadership) and then go back and look at the design team emails and forum record. If the "Design Leader" was not doing his job (giving instructions or helping in the design process), remove him. If there was cronyism, remove the individuals responsible for that as well. (If the Inner Circle cannot make this kind of decision, then the whole VEKN idea is doomed. Additionally, the IC should have an odd number or some way to prevent tie votes.) If the need for a Production Manager is there, give them actual decision making power and accept the decisions made. From where I sit, nothing was revealed in this post that breaks an NDA. The only new details were "dirty laundry" and while many find it distasteful or a "betrayal," whistle-blowing always has one good effect, people are talking about what is going on and people are feeling pressured to fix it. Jeff may have made it so he is never allowed to be involved in any of VEKN inner workings again, but if his actions result in a properly produced new expansion for VTES and perhaps help fix some serious problems in the way this VOLUNTEER organization is operated, my hat is off to him. Robert Dudock

> Azel wrote: > Again, I hope we can play.the.game. (courtesy of... was it Ashur?) > Pretty sure that was Ankur Gupta.

> Kushiel wrote: > > > Azel wrote: > > Again, I hope we can play.the.game. (courtesy of... was it Ashur?) > > > Pretty sure that was Ankur Gupta. > I've heard Ankur say it several times. Reyda uses it a lot too.

Well said Rob. Having been a former playtester with VTES I can certainly empathize with Jeff's dilemma. There were times during Anarchs playtest where it became obvious to me that there were problems at the top. To their credit, some great expansions have been released since, but I would likely never get involved in playtest again because of the one-way flow of information and (at that time) poor decision making. It takes a lot to step out and ostracize yourself the way Jeff did. Perhaps if some of us had the courage to do so back when Anarchs was being developed the set would have resulted as less of a Turkey. One thing I find a bit odd is hardlining at 35 cards. You're releasing a PDF so no physical media is being printed. Not understanding the inflexibility if a few extra cards actually fit concept and bring something to the table.

> BernieTime wrote: > One thing I find a bit odd is hardlining at 35 cards. You're releasing a PDF so no physical media is being printed. Not understanding the inflexibility if a few extra cards actually fit concept and bring something to the table. > I'm guessing designers (understandibly) do not want to flood the game with non-physical cards while there is still a chance for the game to be re-marketed in the future. Driven to the extreme and understanding that each set focuses on interlocking mechanics, one could feasibly get to the point where your deck consists of 60-80% proxied new cards. Not a desirable situation, I believe. Other than this, I await for VEKN's official response on the main subject. Drain

> BernieTime wrote: > One thing I find a bit odd is hardlining at 35 cards. You're releasing a PDF so no physical media is being printed. Not understanding the inflexibility if a few extra cards actually fit concept and bring something to the table. > The limiting resource is the artwork. Getting professional artwork for 35 cards without much of a budget is difficult already.

What about volunteer artists? I've repeatedly offered to do some of my signature style of artwork for cards, absolutely free, and have not gotten any response. (Yes, I'm serious. There must be some cards for which some "MSPaint-style art" would be appropriate. I can certainly do better than Gary frakking Chatterton. For free.)

> Drain wrote: > I'm guessing designers (understandibly) do not want to flood the game with non-physical cards while there is still a chance for the game to be re-marketed in the future. > Also, for a first-time experimentation, better print 35 cards than 350. If the set is botched (who is alway a possibility), having only 35 card limit the impact of the botch. (note that I don't want to imply that the set is currently cruising for a botch, this can't be known before some month or year after the release)

> jozxyqk wrote: > What about volunteer artists? > I've repeatedly offered to do some of my signature style of artwork for cards, absolutely free, and have not gotten any response. > (Yes, I'm serious. There must be some cards for which some "MSPaint-style art" would be appropriate. I can certainly do better than Gary frakking Chatterton. For free.) > Of course there are many volunteers, actually all of them I think. I think your special niche of art hasn´t found the appropriate appreciation with our more classically fine-arts educated artwork coordinator

2 cents time I am most likely one of the more, if not most objectionable people playing this game. For various reasons. I am also someone who is intimately aware of the difficulties of managing large and complex projects, due to the nature of my profession (Game Designer). I have had long time respect and acquaintance of Jeff, and can only say that if he took a step as serious and as large as the one he did, he would not have done so without serious reasons to do so. His statement, as has been stated repeatedly previously, was measured, carefully thought out and well balanced. As the responses so far have been limited to A) straw men arguments B) ad hominen attacks C) irrelevant rubbish I feel that there is a very large possibility if not even probability that what he says has a strong basis in reality. I would like an actual response from the IC, as it seems that there is no true response but merely knee jerk reaction statements. Guys, in the end, we are trying to do this for the players, by the players, and of the players. What has been mentioned in the OP make me very able to believe that exactly the kind of power politics described occurred. The fact that the official response has been vehemently venomous without even in the slightest addressing the actual issues raised leads me to believe that the OP most likely has a large measure of truth on his side. Please, everyone, do what seems to have been the OP's intent. Put your personal ego's and needs aside and put the need of the greater community at the fore.

Still no word from the V:EKN about all this? I guess my hope for having new, interesting playable cards from a player community based demand are all but dashed. Only official word so far is that Jeff is a jerk for violating an NDA and even mentioning anything about a seemingly broken process. Maybe he was right.

Now I am far from judging who's to blame, or whether it was a bigger deal to violate an NDA or (as it so seems) to violate the trust of many players. Yet I am among those, who believe, that this open discussion of the creation process is somewhat excessive. It is my opinion that the cards should be created in a mysterious, cultic, hermetic process, so that I, as a player, could be presented with the new cards as a gift from the divine. In this way I do not need to question the cards, but, if the opposite happened, e.g. the process was disclosed and discussed "democratically", then the magic of it would simply be gone and the cards would eventually lose the nimbus of "true cards". What I'm saying is, that, no matter that these are "fan cards", they still could be taken seriously. Yet, in any game, players tend to be sensitive to the "esoteric" side of the game, they wish the rules to be made by someone "competent" (and was it not, that LSJ became a sort of a "priest-like/oracle-like" figure?), the rules need to be obeyed, or else the game is meaningless and, finally, the cards are artifacts, which means that they, unless taken "seriously" (= have a symbolic value), become scraps of paper. Now please, my dear IC and the Design Team - stop being human! It ruins the magic. "I like to think there always are ...possibilities." Spock

I would never have thought of them as true cards in the first place. I am not sure I want a group of people that can't get past their personal biases and political problems, designing cards for a game I play anyway.

> MSummers wrote: > I would never have thought of them as true cards in the first place. I am not sure I want a group of people that can't get past their personal biases and political problems, designing cards for a game I play anyway. > Um, that - personal biases and political problems - describes every instance of CCG design I've been involved in or have heard about personally from other CCG designers. Traveller Card Game

I'm not sure I want prejudiced people who can't get past their biases and personal opinions running a country, but we're stuck with that as well... Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

Problems arise very often when a group of people have to work together. You can see it almost everywhere. And maybe even more if those people know each other only through internet. At my working place it is common that conflicts arise now and then and have to be solved. The key is good communication and maybe sombody as a counsellor, supervisor or mediator. Baron of Frankfurt

I understand both sides in this and would like to see what the IC has to say. Although Jeff’s message was well thought out and well written, which means he obviously thought about it before he wrote. It also means he didn't just write in a moment of anger (which a lot of people do). Robba yaga is correct! Perhaps we can fix some serious problems. For the guys in the inner circle it would be difficult working with people only know over the internet. And I know that not everyone one gets along but at the end of the day you have to learn to work together. That’s the way it is. At work or in schools there is/was always that person who you don’t really get along with, yet always seemed to get paired with. As long as the finished product is good then, at the end of the day, isn’t that what matters? I just hope they can sort this out and move on and that VTES stays alive with new exciting sets. Like Juggernaut said.

I have to agree with Robba, Bernie and Jeff on this. As a former play tester with Bernie during Bloodlines. There was always a lot of dysfunction in getting things through the political quagmire that persists in all facets of life. Sometimes the only way to get things accomplished is by breaking the rules. Usually because those in charge are abusing the rules as they stand or constantly change them. Which is always the case. If you seriously want to get another set off the ground. You're going to need to work from the ground up. Perhaps even re-establishing not just the testers and Leaders of it but the Inner Council itself as well as other "Titled" individuals with those who are not only more active, but more interested in the integrity of the game than in getting credit for something that won't get them anything other than notoriety among a select few.

> Lambach wrote: > Still no word from the V:EKN about all this? I guess my hope for having new, interesting playable cards from a player community based demand are all but dashed. Only official word so far is that Jeff is a jerk for violating an NDA and even mentioning anything about a seemingly broken process. Maybe he was right. > I am not sure why you feel that we should have an answer in the drawer for this. Jeff had plenty of lead time to prepare his statement, we need to take equal time to prepare an answer. Even worse, we are not one but a group of people so consensus needs to be reached first. Also in more than 10 years of being a volunteer for VTES I never had to deal with such a situation, never had anyone trusted with anything decided to take it for public blaming.

I don't want to be a bootlicker, don't get me wrong, guys. But I think it is fair to give the accused people enough time to get things clear. I'd rather wait some days more than to read a hasted answer with the possibility to hurt the process of cardmaking or turn things into a flamewar. Those disputes are delicate things which demand a slow hand and caution. Good to know people don't act spiteful. Just my 2 whatever . Baron of Frankfurt

The wanting of answers immediately is an unfortunate side effect of information access given to us by the internet. I applaud the idea of developing new cards for events, but personally think the idea of PDF distribution was a bad idea from concept, and apparently into execution. If you can't come up with physical media, then there's really no point.

It is a mater of reputation and respect to let people know when they can expect the answer. Just give us some deadline when we should expect the answer (chose it even in a way where you have more time than you think you need). IC is not a monolite (by reason it cannot be). If you agree as a majority over single case you can answer as majority with signaling minority opinion. Go trough the statement point by point and it should go ok.

Here is the Inner Circle's Open Letter to Jeff Kuta www.vekn.net/index.php/forum/5-generic-vtes-discussion/24814-open-letter-to-jeff-kuta-from-the-ic Jussi Hattara Webmaster Extraordinaire Finnish Politics!

> BernieTime wrote: > personally think the idea of PDF distribution was a bad idea from concept, and apparently into execution. > Did any of the points Jeff made have anything to do with the didtribution method of the upcoming set? Stop trolling please. Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > > > BernieTime wrote: > > personally think the idea of PDF distribution was a bad idea from concept, and apparently into execution. > > > Did any of the points Jeff made have anything to do with the didtribution method of the upcoming set? > > Stop trolling please. > Ahhh comeon, if we cant troll then we are reduced to nothing ;o)

Dear V:EKN Community: Thank you for the feedback to my post. Most of it has been thoughtful, constructive criticism and I appreciate that, as it was also my original intent. I will quote back a handful of responses which I feel were most appropriate and insightful, though many people made important contributions to the discussion: “Unfortunate as it is, the current IC members and by extension card designers don't understand that the most important quality in a leader is the ability to communicate.” “...when it comes down to it, we have few people in the community who are willing to make the commitment necessary to get things done and keep them going.” “I want to play VTES as a game, not live it. As a player, give me sunlight, please.” And every last intuitive and insightful word from Robba Yaga. Shortly after I publicly posted, my rights to post on the Design Team forum were revoked. I had no reasonable expectation to keep my forum access once I had publicly posted (tighter rights management when there is uncertainty is standard procedure in the information technology world). A couple days later, I proactively sent this link to this Wikipedia article to the Inner Circle and Design Team, along with some call-outs and suggestions about how to go forward. The article is lengthy, but contains good information and insights for those who wish to read it. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organizational_dissent However, it took fully five days for the Inner Circle to notify me (on March 5th) that I was officially dismissed from the Design Team. I do not trust that any official procedure was followed, or even that an official vote was taken by the Inner Circle on this matter. There certainly was no notification that this action might be taken, nor a hearing of any type by the governing body for me to present my case, lodge an appeal or file a protest. The V:EKN Inner Circle has the mistaken impression that it is running a for-profit corporation with “at will” employees rather than a non-profit corporation with a duty to its constituents and volunteers. This is further indication of dysfunction within the V:EKN and a continued lack of due process. ========== I feel the need to address a few points which were directed at me publicly. 1) I did not sign a non-disclosure agreement (NDA). To my knowledge, most of the Design Team members have not signed NDAs either. 2) My post largely deals with underlying Design Team and Inner Circle process issues, as well as leadership issues. As others have noted, there is nothing in my post (except perhaps the number of cards) which would break an NDA. Most of NDAs deal specifically with release of information related to creative content or new products. 3) I did not try to blackmail anyone on the Design Team or Inner Circle. Early in January, I initiated a phone call with the Design Team Leader shortly after his return to work out ideas for going forward together. At the time, he seemed genuinely apologetic about his prolonged absence and I hoped this would be a good starting point. However, things took a turn for the worse as he heavy-handedly interacted with most members of the Design Team, causing lots of tension and chaos in the working environment. The three primary designers did not appreciate the way they were being treated. Since I had talked with the Design Team Leader most recently, I was designated to be the one to reach out to him again about the situation and offer solutions for going forward. As a contingency, the three primary designers jointly crafted a petition to the Inner Circle which elaborated upon our concerns and recommended these same possibilities. In late January, I initiated this phone call, though the conversation did not yield much of a response. After two hours, I told him I wanted to end the conversation with some kind--any kind--of a joint statement about how the Design Team could collaboratively proceed. He was unable and unwilling to do so, stating that he couldn’t agree to anything, not even a positive statement of his choice, without conversing with the V:EKN Chairman first. I told him I would take action because he would not. After we hung up, I sent the petition to the Inner Circle. That is the “blackmail” to which Johannes referred. It is also the “bad things [which] would happen” to which Robyn Tatu referred. It was “bad” only in the respect that the Design Team Leader would have his credibility challenged due to the disrespectful way he treated “his” team. 4) While the Team Leader may have returned to lead, for almost six months he was only the de jure leader while the primary designers grew into the de facto leadership of the team and did all the work. It was a mistake by the primary designers not to push earlier for recognition of this fact. But it was a worse mistake by the Inner Circle to compound and reinforce this problem once the Design Team Leader demonstrated his antagonistic actions and attempts to alienate the primary designers were going to be detrimental to the success of the project. 5) This situation is not entirely of my making. As some Inner Circle members posted, there is plenty of blame to go around. I felt the need to respond to an untenable situation affecting the Design Team. There were serious violations of process. The most highly productive members of the team were unethically disenfranchised. Yes, I am the one who made this a public matter, but only when it was clear that all internal options were exhausted and that those in charge of following through with process were willing to expediently ignore it. My intention was to effect some sort of positive change, even if it meant airing of privileged information. 6) I am not the only one with a vision for the game. Nor is the Design Team Leader, who has been steadfastly supported by the Inner Circle despite his prolonged absences and repeated poor handling of processes he was supposed to navigate. I agree wholeheartedly that this project is bigger than any one person, no matter who they are. The Inner Circle should treat it as such, though in my opinion they have not done so and that is what has really jeopardized its success. 7) As a side issue, the Inner Circle seems to have had issues with a part of the set’s direction. Instead of communicating directly what they disliked and entering a discussion about how the parts of the massive amount of work which they deemed not fitting could be pushed back to a later set, some heavy-handed decisions were made by the Chairman via the Design Team Leader as his proxy. Those decisions were not explained or discussed. That left behind a lot of questions and caused a major disruption in the Design Team from which it never did fully recover. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Jeff wrote: > As others have noted, there is nothing in my post (except perhaps the number of cards) which would break an NDA. Most of NDAs deal specifically with release of information related to creative content or new products. > Every single White Wolf NDA that I ever signed -- and I signed twelve of them -- stated that if I made public the fact that I was part of the group for which the NDA was intended that I was breaking the NDA. FWIW. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> KevinM wrote: > > > Jeff wrote: > > As others have noted, there is nothing in my post (except perhaps the number of cards) which would break an NDA. Most of NDAs deal specifically with release of information related to creative content or new products. > > > Every single White Wolf NDA that I ever signed -- and I signed twelve of them -- stated that if I made public the fact that I was part of the group for which the NDA was intended that I was breaking the NDA. FWIW. > Which just gives us some insight in how one company's NDA might have looked (since all twelve you ever signed were from White Wolf), and cannot be deemed the standard for all other NDA's as such. And the fact that Jeff stated he never signed any form of NDA in the first place, renders the discussion about how an NDA might look kinda moot. A lot of stuff has passed our view in the last few days, especially in the two posts from Jeff and the open letter to him from the IC. After considering what I have been reading, I think this matter cannot be blamed on Jeff entirely. To me, it seems like there's something seriously disfunctional within the VEKN and its Inner Circle. Would they care to elaborate some on how the design-team leader was kept completely out of the wind in their open letter? Based on what I've been reading, the person should have been removed from duty after keeping quiet for as long as he did. Whatever the reason for being silent for so long - personal situation, illness, lack of interest, unable to live up to the task, you name it - it seems to me that someone else should have stepped in (or should have been appointed to step in by the IC) and take over for the time being. I can imagine pretty well the frustration of Jeff Kuta for having worked his ass off, only to be ignored after such a long time. The question remains though; how will this continue? Will we still have a new set? Can we, as a community, know your plans, continuing from here? Much appreciated! "They had forgotten the first lesson, that we are to be powerful, beautiful, and without regret." ~ Armand.

> Angel74 wrote: > After considering what I have been reading, I think this matter cannot be blamed on Jeff entirely. To me, it seems like there's something seriously disfunctional within the VEKN and its Inner Circle. > The probability that Jeff was just a nuts was not too high, but I would not call the Inner Circle "seriously dysfunctionnal". For two reason : * it serve no purpose to piss them off by swearing at them and calling them name. After all, the VEKN work because of their (probably hard) work. * we talk about, at worse and taking the Jeff version at face value, autoritative decision and being partial to friends. That's something that happen all the time, with everybody, in every organization existing. There is no money involved, no harassment, and at least for now nothing that threaten VtES. What I fear is that the Inner circle would try to silence the whole thing, use some smoke screen, and try its best to continue the same road as before, as a reaction to the public protest, instead of being a little more open so as to ensure the problems are solved. To avoid that, the more important thing is in my opinion to show at least some support to the IC, and at least give them some time. One of the issue is that some people does not work well together ; it's likely that some or all of thoses peoples will have to be removed from the project, it's likely that some or all of thoses peoples are friends or member of the IC, and it's likely that the IC will have the temptation to just bury everything to avoid showing weakness and having to take tough decisions. It's only human.

> Angel74 wrote: > > > KevinM wrote: > > > > > Jeff wrote: > > > As others have noted, there is nothing in my post (except perhaps the number of cards) which would break an NDA. Most of NDAs deal specifically with release of information related to creative content or new products. > > > > > Every single White Wolf NDA that I ever signed -- and I signed twelve of them -- stated that if I made public the fact that I was part of the group for which the NDA was intended that I was breaking the NDA. FWIW. > > > Which just gives us some insight in how one company's NDA might have looked (since all twelve you ever signed were from White Wolf), and cannot be deemed the standard for all other NDA's as such. > I'm just pointing out that what Jeff said -- "there is nothing in my post (except perhaps the number of cards) which would break an NDA" -- is false. And I'm sure that he signed NDAs for White wolf in the past, so I don't know why he would say such a thing. It isn't super-important. I just wanted it noted that it was falsely -- and not necessarily maliciously -- stated. EDIT: It's been brought to my attention that the NDA didn't *explicitly* state what I said it states (which is true) but rather that the language used is implying such. So, take that for what it's worth. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

@KJM: I suspect also that from Jeff's post he was suggesting that he isn't breaking NDA because he was not a signatory to the same NDA as Playtesters (if he signed one at all). Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > Angel74 wrote: > > After considering what I have been reading, I think this matter cannot be blamed on Jeff entirely. To me, it seems like there's something seriously disfunctional within the VEKN and its Inner Circle. > > > The probability that Jeff was just a nuts was not too high, but I would not call the Inner Circle "seriously dysfunctionnal". For two reason : > > * it serve no purpose to piss them off by swearing at them and calling them name. After all, the VEKN work because of their (probably hard) work. > > * we talk about, at worse and taking the Jeff version at face value, autoritative decision and being partial to friends. That's something that happen all the time, with everybody, in every organization existing. There is no money involved, no harassment, and at least for now nothing that threaten VtES. > > What I fear is that the Inner circle would try to silence the whole thing, use some smoke screen, and try its best to continue the same road as before, as a reaction to the public protest, instead of being a little more open so as to ensure the problems are solved. > > To avoid that, the more important thing is in my opinion to show at least some support to the IC, and at least give them some time. One of the issue is that some people does not work well together ; it's likely that some or all of thoses peoples will have to be removed from the project, it's likely that some or all of thoses peoples are friends or member of the IC, and it's likely that the IC will have the temptation to just bury everything to avoid showing weakness and having to take tough decisions. It's only human. > I would like to elaborate then, since it was not my intention to be swearing and namecalling. I don't think the IC is dysfunctional as a whole. I do see the work they put in keeping V:tES alive, and I do appreciate most of the stuff the VEKN was set up for. But some of their modus operandi in the case at hand, even if only partly true, is just plain wrong. If, at my work for example, I'm being asked to get a whole new project going, and I put a lot of effort in it, I would not be happy (understatement) if the management appoints someone to 'monitor' me, which he doesn't really do - only to be neglected by the management when said person decides to show interest after all and apparently disagrees with everything I have done for the project. (Yes, a slightly exaggerated version of the events I got from Jeff's post - but again; even if only part of this is true, that's not in any point of view the right way of handling things within an organization.) "They had forgotten the first lesson, that we are to be powerful, beautiful, and without regret." ~ Armand.

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > @KJM: I suspect also that from Jeff's post he was suggesting that he isn't breaking NDA because he was not a signatory to the same NDA as Playtesters (if he signed one at all). > To be clear only playtesters are subject to a playtest NDA - the DT are subject to whatever verbal agreement they made when they agreed to do the role with the IC. As Johannes stated the NDA really is just there as reminder text that the project is confidential and you should only discuss it with others under NDA. Jeff is also part of a playtest group but i've not received an NDA back from him from this group - but as stated it's a little redundant.

I'd cite a famous english writer by saying "Much ado about nothing". Man, such a fuss for 35 cards... As stated by Angel just above, you have problemes like this in every organisation. Does it means you should go public all the time ? usually you go drink a beer with friends and say "life is a little unfair" while peeping at barmaid/barman's buttocks (your preference). Now Jeff, I understand you. You feel like you've wasted your time (and other people's time), but you should know the risk that doing free work for a minuscule organisation with no money would bring you close to nothing... If there is malfunction in this organisation, i'd rather you chose the "beer routine" rather than making this long post. Is creating those cards so important to you ? And what if your cards ideas were rejected by most players who would not like the way you designed them ? Maybe you should avoid a potential disappointment by stopping creating cards with people who use methods you dislike... I hope everyone can be friends again, but i doubt the damage can be forgotten now. Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> Panderboy wrote: > I'd cite a famous english writer by saying "Much ado about nothing". > > Man, such a fuss for 35 cards... > Bet you thought such melodrama was just a territory for LARPers, didn't you?

the new set is not coming out as expected! I vote that we all panic!

Dear Mr. Jeff Kuta, May I know the reason why the OP was posted in Board Game Geek? It only gave an awful external image of VEKN to other communities. Nothing else could be achieved by that posting, since it is obvious that Board Game Geek forums are scarcely used by us VtES folk. In this I respectfully question your motives. Also, where are the other Design Team Members that share your issues with the process and why haven't they come to surface? I assume the worse problem was that you and the other team members had N cards though of and fully discussed and the DT Leader came from torpor and took most of them of the list, or significantly changed them. Can you give a percentage of the cards you worked on that were sent to the Garbage Collector? This would give us the reason of your issues, because the personal part is really irrelevant. You can't ask people to be professional and not be one yourself. If this was a poorly run professional company or political organization, you would just resign. Otherwise after this "press release" you wouldn't be able to find a job in the area. I think you can't ask people to be professional here. Period. In a Sabbat themed expansion, I assume the dramatic changes in theme that the DT Leader imposed where non Sabbat Vampire cards. Please don't confirm or deny this theory. I'm just getting to a point: Camarilla Edition had Sabbat Vampires and the WoD only ended several years later and that wasn't the reason why it ended. You did point out issues that I believe will improve the way future sets are designed from scratch, specially in choosing and managing the Design Team. Because our volunteers are people who are doing some of these things for the first time and are nice enough to try to improve. Not because you made this more or less public. I don't agree that you used up all other means of communication and had no choice but to go public. You didn't contact the people that are directly under the IC. No, us National Coordinators are not special in any way, except we vote for the IC Candidates, we are the people most in contact with them, we counsel them in many situations and don't have any problems in asking them for some accountability (in the volunteer context that we all are), if need be. So. Now people know that we had issues in the organization, the IC was asked to act upon it, it reached a decision, a shift in direction was decided and some team members felt disrespected by the IC and DT Leader's decision. I don't want to diminish you feelings, but you must understand that in the bigger picture, the personal part is not that relevant. How do you think we all can help, without starting the whole process from scratch? How do you hope your info will shape the way we do things in the future? a. I don't agree at all with the way you displayed the information. b. You point valid issues that should at least make us think and understand better how hard it is to be in a leadership position of an organization with all the bad things of leading a professional company and few of the good ones. Apart from first question, I tried not to make any character judgment or enter any right/wrong rhetoric. It was very hard, since I know some of the people involved. I'm possibly one of the few NCs that has absolutely nothing to do with the work on the next expansion. Unless one of my two proposals for cards goes through. Best Regards, Tiago Brum Portuguese NC

> Brum wrote: > > No, us National Coordinators are not special in any way, except we vote for the IC Candidates, we are the people most in contact with them, we counsel them in many situations and don't have any problems in asking them for some accountability (in the volunteer context that we all are), if need be. > Ehhh say what? First, Brum cant you once and for all stop pretending that this is a democracy? As far as to my knowledge there have never been a vote, as far as "our" rules are they are there for life. We have never decided upon a structure, everyone have to the best of my knowledge said they would like that and that position and then have gotten it for life, or until someone with more freinds and power decide otherwise. Right now Power = admin rights to the forum. Admin rights to the site and ofcouse cards/promo/prize support. But what makes me even more laugh was the passage about you counceling the IC, I have to ask you where this happens? Becouse its no where I have access to.

> Jesper wrote: > First, Brum cant you once and for all stop pretending that this is a democracy? > Second, Jesper cant you once and for all stop acting like we're giving a shit ? We players don't care about politics in this tiny non profit organization. If you have something to say about the prince/NC/IC/Blahblah relationships and love affairs, please do it in private. Please. Really. Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

Seriously, guys, it's been fun to watch, but.. > Right now Power = admin rights to the forum. Admin rights to the site and ofcouse cards/promo/prize support. > Who gives a shit? This shouldn't be about power structures, as dozens of people have stated already. I personally don't care if it's a democracy or not, it occurs to me that people just want to know where the develompent is going, what's happening (in general), and when the thing might get published. If getting the 'people' (us) to know what's going on takes a fired developer and an open rant about how badly things are going, so be it. I hope things do get a wee bit more transparent from here on. But arguments where the real 'power' lies, and whatnot... Come on! There's really no real 'power' in handling a dead card game. It's just a forum for peeps to gather and chat away. I could've just Thank You'd Pandeboy above, but wanted to write things out for a change. Just get it done. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

> Panderboy wrote: > > > Jesper wrote: > > First, Brum cant you once and for all stop pretending that this is a democracy? > > > Second, Jesper cant you once and for all stop acting like we're giving a shit ? > > We players don't care about politics in this tiny non profit organization. If you have something to say about the prince/NC/IC/Blahblah relationships and love affairs, please do it in private. Please. Really. > I must also have missed the vote where we made you spokes person of "we the players". And no, I wont stop to correct errors and misleading. No I wont take it in Private, when the misleading are done public. Im not yelling around, creating threads trying to get focus, but repleying in a thread where ots appropiate. Why did you keep reading this thread if you have it that way, you must know by now what it is about?

> Kraus wrote: > Seriously, guys, it's been fun to watch, but.. > > > Right now Power = admin rights to the forum. Admin rights to the site and ofcouse cards/promo/prize support. > > > Who gives a shit? This shouldn't be about power structures, as dozens of people have stated already. I personally don't care if it's a democracy or not, it occurs to me that people just want to know where the develompent is going, what's happening (in general), and when the thing might get published. > > If getting the 'people' (us) to know what's going on takes a fired developer and an open rant about how badly things are going, so be it. I hope things do get a wee bit more transparent from here on. But arguments where the real 'power' lies, and whatnot... > We agree here. But this still means that I dont want people to think that things are as Brum discribs them. Becouse they are not, is it a problem, not really. Is it a problem if people are lead to misbelive how thins are conducted here, in my very yes, a very big yes. Sorry for not wanting to support that.

> Panderboy wrote: > We players don't care > Talk for yourself. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Jesper wrote: > First, Brum cant you once and for all stop pretending that this is a democracy? As far as to my knowledge there have never been a vote, as far as "our" rules are they are there for life. We have never decided upon a structure, everyone have to the best of my knowledge said they would like that and that position and then have gotten it for life, or until someone with more freinds and power decide otherwise. > All the attending NCs (which was a fair share of the total amount of NCs) at EC Paris have voted for me being the chairman. If someone puts in a pitch how he wants to be the chairman I am totally fine with considering if I want to run against him at all and have the NCs vote again. How each country determines his NC is up to them, but I know it has happened that the unhappy playerbase replaced NCs.

> johannes wrote: > > > Jesper wrote: > > How each country determines his NC is up to them, but I know it has happened that the unhappy playerbase replaced NCs. > > > The attending princes at swedish championships voted if our NC should be NC. All was in favor. This is starting to look like a democracy to me > > But I still would like more transparency. > "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > > > Panderboy wrote: > > We players don't care > > > Talk for yourself. > Ok, there may be some exceptions.... But the vast majority of players want new cards. They don't want to overthrow this oh-so tyrannic regime of Inner Circle cultivating secrecy. Dang ! What's the matter with you guys fighting over cardboard pieces ? No real battle in your life or what ? -__- oh, by the way, I thought Panderboy was a fun name but actually I'm Reyda. So expect some low level trolling ... Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

I think VEKN could be described as a multi-tiered representative democracy. Players to Princes. Princes to National Coordinators. National Coordinators to Inner Circle. Jussi Hattara Webmaster Extraordinaire Finnish Politics!

> jhattara wrote: > I think VEKN could be described as a multi-tiered representative democracy. Players to Princes. Princes to National Coordinators. National Coordinators to Inner Circle. > And I understand why it could seem that way but its wrong. IC selects NC's, NC's select princes and players would have to live with that. FYI: I have not, nowhere, described this as being a problem. But lets not fool ourself with thinking its any other way.

> Jesper wrote: > > > jhattara wrote: > > I think VEKN could be described as a multi-tiered representative democracy. Players to Princes. Princes to National Coordinators. National Coordinators to Inner Circle. > > > And I understand why it could seem that way but its wrong. > > IC selects NC's, > The Inner Circle may have chosen a few National Coordinators in countries where there is only one or two active princes. But the usual process is to conduct a vote amongst the princes of a given country to elect a National Coordinator. > NC's select princes > 8. A National Coordinator will help the VEKN with the appointment of new Princes, particularly with providing the VEKN with information about the prospective Prince and his/her play group. The final authority for the appointment of Princes remains with the VEKN. V:EKN Website Coordinator

> Jesper wrote: > > And I understand why it could seem that way but its wrong. > > IC selects NC's, NC's select princes and players would have to live with that. > About NC you're completely wrong actually For example, i was elected as NC by the italian princes, and same was for former italian NC It's a process bottom-top and not vice-versa, as much like for the princes (so far, i never elected a prince myself outright, but rather got candidates from several cities that were appointed princes with the consensus of their respective city groups) Emiliano vekn.net administrators staff

Heather Kreiter has gone public about her involvement in the upcoming VTES expansion. Heather Kreiter Art > > Busy day again! Altering some L5R cards, finishing up my VTES sketch and continuing to work on my L5R painting! > www.facebook.com/heatherkreiterart/posts/10150642424734350 Jussi Hattara Webmaster Extraordinaire Finnish Politics!

> jhattara wrote: > Heather Kreiter has gone public about her involvement in the upcoming VTES expansion. > Great news! Since I don't have a FB account I must comment that instead of buying just prints, why not buy an original? Most of them are not THAT expensive. Finnish Politics!

> Jesper wrote: > IC selects NC's, NC's select princes and players would have to live with that. > Well, around in here the prince is usually the one who's got the time, and is the most enthustiastic for the job... No one from the 'upper level' nominated me to do anything. Fair enough, I wasn't asked if I'm happy with our NC, but I became a prince after VEKN was launched, so I was late for that. And honestly, I have nothing against our NC. He's doing a wonderful job. So I dunno... Do you know of instances where people would've been displeased with their prince but could do nothing about it, even if they wanted? I'm not saying you're wrong, but things are going fine in Finland. I can't say from other parts of the world, though, so that's why I'm saying I might be wrong. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

> Lönkka wrote: > > > jhattara wrote: > > Heather Kreiter has gone public about her involvement in the upcoming VTES expansion. > > > Great news! > > Since I don't have a FB account I must comment that instead of buying just prints, why not buy an original? Most of them are not THAT expensive. > That is relative. For me buying an original would probably leave a dent into budget. Jussi Hattara Webmaster Extraordinaire Finnish Politics!

> Kraus wrote: > > > Jesper wrote: > > Fair enough, I wasn't asked if I'm happy with our NC, but I became a prince after VEKN was launched, so I was late for that. > > > Actually years ago Finnish princes took a vote and elected me for the part. > > If someone wants to replace me, I'd be OK with that. > > In Jesper's case the process was somewhat different. > Wasn't it during Paris EC where it was deemed necessary that someone should represent Denmark in the NC meeting and thus Jesper kinda drew the shortest straw and took the burden? > > I think it was a good choice! > Finnish Politics!

> Jesper wrote: > Ehhh say what? > > First, Brum cant you once and for all stop pretending that this is a democracy? As far as to my knowledge there have never been a vote, as far as "our" rules are they are there for life. We have never decided upon a structure, everyone have to the best of my knowledge said they would like that and that position and then have gotten it for life, or until someone with more freinds and power decide otherwise. > > Right now Power = admin rights to the forum. Admin rights to the site and ofcouse cards/promo/prize support. > > But what makes me even more laugh was the passage about you counceling the IC, I have to ask you where this happens? Becouse its no where I have access to. > Countless times. This is the Nth time you deny 90% of what happened in the EC meeting in Paris where you were. I don't understand how that's possible. I voted there. You did too. In fact, guys like us were there exactly so our countries were represented and had a voice. For every new IC member we were asked to give our opinion on the candidates. Yes, we all said ok to Pascal. We all said ok to Robert. Unanimous vote is still a vote. We are all volunteers - if someone wants to work and do a specific task, generally people trust and welcome the effort. Sometimes it fails: I volunteered for being the guy doing the list of qualified players for the Continentals. There was no vote because there was only one volunteer. I'm behind on that and I'm sorry. Looking for a job for months, sickness in family, etc. Life happens. Point is: I always felt my opinion matters (even though I come from a small country VtES-wise and am one of two players who regularly contact the outside WoD). Yes, Johannes and Andreas sort the prize support as they wish. Since we voted for Johannes to be Chairman and Liaison with CCP, I think that's part of the job description, since he got the (special) stuff and needs to sort it out. We even voted for the main admins of this site. Of course getting new ones is part of their job description. Things are now much more democratic than ever before. I have no doubt that Johannes is much closer to Hugh as a friend than with me. The UK is much greater in VtES numbers than Portugal. Portugal's prize support for 2010 was in no way inferior to the UK's. I was there in both ECQ's. I'm sorry for the boring (for some) answer. But part of the beauty I saw in this game was the way it's community held the sway of events. Already during WW/CCP times. I don't feel this is an oligarchy at all.

> Panderboy wrote: > oh, by the way, I thought Panderboy was a fun name but actually I'm Reyda. So expect some low level trolling ... > He is back, the man - the legend - little pander.

> johannes wrote: > > > Panderboy wrote: > > oh, by the way, I thought Panderboy was a fun name but actually I'm Reyda. So expect some low level trolling ... > > > He is back, the man - the legend - little pander. > Come on, i don't deserve this. I never took part in the Vekn stuff, because i know i can't be trusted on so many levels. I am lazy, always late... But hey, like lots of players, i am still enjoying this game thanks to people like johannes, pascal (the list goes on and on) who are still devoting some huge amount of their free time to make the game enjoyable for others. I want to thank them. I want to remind some of you that they are doing this time consuming task for free, so we can all play together. Ranting about power structure in Vekn is quite stupid. It's like having free meals all year long in a restaurant and still complaining about the chef's ugly moustache. Beyond my comprehension... Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> Reyda wrote: > It's like having free meals all year long in a restaurant and still complaining about the chef's ugly moustache. Beyond my comprehension... > I bet you never had your meal spoiled by a truly ugly chef's moustache. It make me snape every time.

A true chef has a moustache. It's in the Cooking guidelines as well as in the 7/7 rulings. Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> Damnans wrote: > > > Jesper wrote: > > > > > jhattara wrote: > > > I think VEKN could be described as a multi-tiered representative democracy. Players to Princes. Princes to National Coordinators. National Coordinators to Inner Circle. > > > > > > > > And I understand why it could seem that way but its wrong. > > > > IC selects NC's, > > > The Inner Circle may have chosen a few National Coordinators in countries where there is only one or two active princes. But the usual process is to conduct a vote amongst the princes of a given country to elect a National Coordinator. > > > NC's select princes > > > 8. A National Coordinator will help the VEKN with the appointment of new Princes, particularly with providing the VEKN with information about the prospective Prince and his/her play group. The final authority for the appointment of Princes remains with the VEKN. > This just proves my point where we have this system, where the ones "electing" each other are the persons selected by the same persons. Have I said any of this is a problem, for the 117th time no, but dont try to pretend its something it isent. Also Im still not aware of what forum the other NCs are giving advice to the ICs as refered to earlier. Unless we are talking about the ever super importent issue of how many t-shirts every country needed.

> Jesper wrote: > This just proves my point where we have this system, where the ones "electing" each other are the persons selected by the same persons. > I'll tell you what really happens most of the time: 1. A player who wants to become a prince contacts his national cordinator. 2. His national coordinator contacts me to add that player to the prince list and give him access to the prince forum. 3. I add that player to the prince list and give him access to the prince forum. V:EKN Website Coordinator

> Jesper wrote: > > This just proves my point where we have this system, where the ones "electing" each other are the persons selected by the same persons. > Jesper : "things go like "A" and it's not democratic" forumguy 1 : "actually, things go more like "B" " forumguy 2 : "it's not really "A" my friend " officialguy 1 : "no, things go like " B" " officialguy 2 : "yes, it's always been like "B", it never was like "A" " Jesper : "my point exactly." me : "WAT?" sorry to pick on you Jesper, but by reading the previous post that's exactly what i percieved. Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

To lay all the doubts at rest that there is some kind of huge and secret communication going on in the Inner Circle I have listed all the relevant threads from the IC forum here. The list doesn´t list ALL threads, but all that had some kind of relevant discussion (it is about 50% of the threads). There is simply an IC forum because we assigned a forum to each group within the VEKN. I think it is pretty obvious that this stuff is where it belongs. Review of official postings in public doesn´t make sense. Chosing team members, well that is the way it is right now. We never elected the ones listed. - Response to the Design Team incident - Providing "Counter-type" cards (i.e Anarch etc..) - Expansion name for the new set - Artist Contract - State of the V:EKN 01/01/2012 review - RTR 20111202 review - Prize support for princes and national coordinators - Facebook presence - Art Director position - Rules Coordinator position - Design Team members