I am trying to understand timing when cancelling cards. What other players are allowed to do in "as it is played" time frame?
There is ruling that you can't tap Dreams or Erciyes Fragments when master card is played to get Sudden. I guess you can cancel master card with Sascha Vykos [ADV] ability if you draw a Sudden.
What about for minion cards. Can you tap Dreams or Erciyes Fragments to get Direct Intervention to cancel a minion card when as it is played.
Can you tap dreams to draw extra combat cards to cancel an aim card (like Target Vitals)?
Also what is difference between cancelling effect of card and cancelling card? Watenda can cancel the effect of a combat card. Is "a vampire may play only one Immortal Grapple each round." part of immortals grapples effect. What part of card is considered a effect?
Wondering also situations of "as action is announced" time frame.
The 'a vampire may play onle one x' is only looked at by any further copies of that same card. So you cannot play another IG in this case since the new IG sees that you have already played IG this round.
Note however that bleed modifiers are worded differently, so if say conditioning is canceled, the acting minion CAN play another action modifier to boost the bleed (though not another conditioning since you can only play one of each action mod per action)
> Klaital wrote:
> The 'a vampire may play onle one x' is only looked at by any further copies of that same card. So you cannot play another IG in this case since the new IG sees that you have already played IG this round.
>
> Note however that bleed modifiers are worded differently, so if say conditioning is canceled, the acting minion CAN play another action modifier to boost the bleed (though not another conditioning since you can only play one of each action mod per action)
>
I know all that. I just find it weird that text in Immortal Grapple: "A vampire may play only one Immortal Grapple each round." is not part of the effect of a card. Just wondering what is effect? All card text in card or just some part? But those other questions I made are more important.
> Surreal wrote:
> I am trying to understand timing when cancelling cards. What other players are allowed to do in "as it is played" time frame?
>
> There is ruling that you can't tap Dreams or Erciyes Fragments when master card is played to get Sudden. I guess you can cancel master card with Sascha Vykos [ADV] ability if you draw a Sudden.
>
No. You must handle cancellation first. Then you draw.
groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_thread/thread/969ebdc5009c8af5/62681f2cc3190139?lnk=gst&q=sascha+sudden+author:lsj&hl=fr#62681f2cc3190139
> Surreal wrote:
> What about for minion cards. Can you tap Dreams or Erciyes Fragments to get Direct Intervention to cancel a minion card when as it is played.
>
No, same as above.
> Surreal wrote:
> Can you tap dreams to draw extra combat cards to cancel an aim card (like Target Vitals)?
>
No, same as above.
> Surreal wrote:
> Also what is difference between cancelling effect of card and cancelling card? Watenda can cancel the effect of a combat card. Is "a vampire may play only one Immortal Grapple each round." part of immortals grapples effect. What part of card is considered a effect?
>
It's the same.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
I think the main difference between canceling a card or canceling effect of a card is that if you cancel the effect the cost of the canceled card is still paid.
Same rules apply for canceling both minion and master cards so no you can't get a DI with dreams to cancel a minion card. I also don't think you can try to draw more combat cards to cancel an aim, you need to have them in hand already.
> Surreal wrote:
> I am trying to understand timing when cancelling cards. What other players are allowed to do in "as it is played" time frame?
>
Use/play cards or effects that read "as X is played" and/or Wakes: Rulebook 1.6.1
> Surreal wrote:
> There is ruling that you can't tap Dreams or Erciyes Fragments when master card is played to get Sudden. I guess you can cancel master card with Sascha Vykos [ADV] ability if you draw a Sudden.
>
That ruling is more of a clarification. Dreams doesn't read "as X is played", so you can't tap it as X is played.
Regarding Sascha: I updated his cardtext to make it clearer you don't. [LSJ 20051122] and [RTR 20111202]
See also Sascha's cardtext:
>
> Name: Sascha Vykos, The Angel of Caine
> Cardtype: Vampire
> Clan: Tzimisce
> Level: Advanced
> Group: 2
> Capacity: 8
> Discipline: ani dom AUS THA VIC
> Advanced, Sabbat Archbishop of Washington, D.C.: If Sascha is ready, you may draw a card from your library {after} another Methuselah plays a master card.
> [MERGED] Sabbat cardinal.
>
> Surreal wrote:
> What about for minion cards. Can you tap Dreams or Erciyes Fragments to get Direct Intervention to cancel a minion card when as it is played.
>
The rulebook section 1.6.1 applies to all cards. So: Can't use the Fragments to fetch a DI to cancel an action card as it is played.
> Surreal wrote:
> Can you tap dreams to draw extra combat cards to cancel an aim card (like Target Vitals)?
>
No. As above.
> Surreal wrote:
> Also what is difference between cancelling effect of card and cancelling card? Watenda can cancel the effect of a combat card. Is "a vampire may play only one Immortal Grapple each round." part of immortals grapples effect. What part of card is considered a effect?
>
Rulebook Section 11
>
> “Cancel a card”: A "canceled" card has no effect, but it is still considered played. Unless explicitly written, cost for the card is paid. If the card was a strike card, the minion who played it must choose a strike, which might come from another strike card. If the card was an action card, the minion doesn’t tap (he doesn’t pay for the action card), and can play the same action card again.
>
All the cardtext of a canceled card is skipped.
Regarding Immortal Grapple: Yes, if you DI/Watenda it, the part where you can only play one per round doesn't happen. (But remember that you can't play a second one, because that second one's "You can only play one per round" text prohibits it from being played).
> Surreal wrote:
> Wondering also situations of "as action is announced" time frame.
>
Do you have examples?
> Surreal wrote:
> I know all that. I just find it weird that text in Immortal Grapple: "A vampire may play only one Immortal Grapple each round." is not part of the effect of a card. Just wondering what is effect? All card text in card or just some part? But those other questions I made are more important.
>
Say your vampire A plays an Immortal Grapple. We can call that card IG#1.
IG#1 gets cancelled by Direct Intervention. It has no effect, no text on it applies, but you still played it. It can't be cancelled by Direct Intervention without being played in the first place.
You have another Immortal Grapple in your hand. We can call that card IG#2. The card text on IG#2 states that "[a] vampire may play only one Immortal Grapple each round."
Regardless of IG#1's text, the text on IG#2 still forbids you to play it since you already played IG#1 during that combat round.
I think it's safe to say that the only relevant text on a cancelled card (assuming cost isn't payed) is the card name, since some cards can only be played once per game/round/turn/action/etc.
> Pascal wrote:
>
> > Surreal wrote:
> > Wondering also situations of "as action is announced" time frame.
> >
> Do you have examples?
>
Can you tap Erciyes Fragments or Dreams to get a Seduction? Thanks for answers
> Surreal wrote:
>
> > Pascal wrote:
> >
> > > Surreal wrote:
> > > Wondering also situations of "as action is announced" time frame.
> > >
> > Do you have examples?
> >
> Can you tap Erciyes Fragments or Dreams to get a Seduction? Thanks for answers
>
Sure.
> Klaital wrote:
> I think the main difference between canceling a card or canceling effect of a card is that if you cancel the effect the cost of the canceled card is still paid.
>
No. In both cases cost is paid (unless stated otherwise on the card). "Cancelling a card" and "cancelling the effects of a card" are the same.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
can you play as many effects as you wish during the "as it is played" window?
For example, is the following legal?:
Veil of Darkness is in play. You block your opponent, in the resulting combat he plays Majesty, which is that vampire's first discipline card of the turn. Veil of Darkness Does not reveal a master card You play Botched Move Is that all legal?
If Botched Move also failed to cancel the majesty, could you then DI? If so, would you draw to replace for the botched move before or after? i.e. could you draw into the DI off Botched move and then play it?
> Malcolm wrote:
> can you play as many effects as you wish during the "as it is played" window?
> For example, is the following legal?:
> Veil of Darkness is in play. You block your opponent, in the resulting combat he plays Majesty, which is that vampire's first discipline card of the turn. Veil of Darkness Does not reveal a master card You play Botched Move Is that all legal?
>
Yes.
> Malcolm wrote:
> If Botched Move also failed to cancel the majesty, could you then DI? If so, would you draw to replace for the botched move before or after? i.e. could you draw into the DI off Botched move and then play it?
>
You could DI. However, since we're in the "as played" window, cards are not replaced : Rulebook section 1.6.1 , so you can't replace your BM with DI and play DI.
> Pascal wrote:
> You could DI. However, since we're in the "as played" window, cards are not replaced : Rulebook section 1.6.1 , so you can replace your BM with DI and play DI.
>
Should be a "can't" there, right?
> Pascal wrote:
>
> > Malcolm wrote:
> > can you play as many effects as you wish during the "as it is played" window?
> > For example, is the following legal?:
> > Veil of Darkness is in play. You block your opponent, in the resulting combat he plays Majesty, which is that vampire's first discipline card of the turn. Veil of Darkness Does not reveal a master card You play Botched Move Is that all legal?
> >
> Yes.
>
> > Malcolm wrote:
> > If Botched Move also failed to cancel the majesty, could you then DI? If so, would you draw to replace for the botched move before or after? i.e. could you draw into the DI off Botched move and then play it?
> >
> You could DI. However, since we're in the "as played" window, cards are not replaced : Rulebook section 1.6.1 , so you can replace your BM with DI and play DI.
>
Some effects can cancel a card "as it is played." These effects (and effects that grant the ability to play them, like Forced Awakening) are the only effects allowed during the "as played" time period of another card. Even drawing to replace cards comes after this time period.
The highlighted could be interpreted to apply to all Methuselah, I assume that is not the case?
> henrik wrote:
>
> > Pascal wrote:
> > You could DI. However, since we're in the "as played" window, cards are not replaced : Rulebook section 1.6.1 , so you can replace your BM with DI and play DI.
> >
> Should be a "can't" there, right?
>
Uh good catch.It should indeed have been can't. I'll edit my previous posy.
Sorry for the typo.