Does the effect of superior Faceless Night still apply to blocking minions if the action fails?
The card text says the tapping happens when the action resolves. Does a fizzled action resolve?
This question came up in a tournament this weekend when one my prey's Imbued attempted to block my vampire with . I played superior Faceless Night, and the block was unsuccessful. I played a bleed modifier, then one of my prey's Imbued used Champion to cause the action to fail (and start a combat between the two minions). The judge ruled that the first minion attempting to block was still tapped by superior Faceless Night. There are many reasons an action can fail, but I couldn't find a ruling about this.
Faceless Night
[Action Modifier] Action Modifier
[obf] +1 stealth.
[OBF] +1 stealth, and any minion who attempts to block this action and fails becomes tapped when the action is resolved (before resolving the action).
You are eternity's hostage,
a captive of time.
Boris Pasternak, Night
Champion
Power
Defense
[REACTION] [2 CONVICTION] Only usable when a monster controlled by another Methuselah is taking a action against you or against an imbued controlled by any player. The action fails and the acting monster enters combat with this imbued instead.
Since the action failed (by other means), the minion cannot have managed to block it. So I would say Faceless Night would tap the minion which had attempted to block.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
Faceless Night (sup) says "becomes tapped when the action is resolved".
The way I understand it, a fizzled action is not resolved. If so, according to the exact wording of the card, minions who attempted but failed to block would not tap.
According to the West Seide Story (www.veknfrance.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16155), an action failed is resolved (though not successful). Faceless Night applies.
I couldn't find a link though, better search hard
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
When an action is blocked, the combat generated by the block is the resolution of the action.
All actions resolve, except those that are canceled.
Faceless Night taps minions who failed to successfully block, regardless of what happens to the action. [LSJ 19990526] (this is based on the "old" text of Faceless Night, which was explicit. LSJ confirms the new text is not an errata to the old one here: [LSJ 20020321] )
Examples: A blocked Force of Will will inflict its agg damage after that combat.
Seraph's Second is usable if the acting Black Hand was blocked.
> Pascal wrote:
> Faceless Night taps minions who failed to successfully block, regardless of what happens to the action. [LSJ 19990526] (this is based on the "old" text of Faceless Night, which was explicit. LSJ confirms the new text is not an errata to the old one here: [LSJ 20020321] )
>
According to those rulings, Faceless Night does not (as it should, according to it's card text) wait until action resolution to tap the relevant minion/s.
From [LSJ 19990526] :
>
> (It taps an unsuccessful blocker when the controller declares "no more block attempts" or when another minion's block is successful.)
>
Further confirmation here:
[LSJ 20000814]
I think card text should probably be changed to "after block attempts are resolved or declined" or something along those lines, instead of the current "when the action is resolved (before resolving the action)".
Current cardtext (which was changed in 2002, and caused the second link's discussion) changed Faceless Night so that
- it wouldn't tap minions who successfully block (matters for Atonement)
- it taps minions at resolution (rather than when their block attempt fails)
> Pascal wrote:
> Current cardtext (which was changed in 2002, and caused the second link's discussion) changed Faceless Night so that
> - it wouldn't tap minions who successfully block (matters for Atonement)
> - it taps minions at resolution (rather than when their block attempt fails)
>
In the second link's discussion it's also stated that there was no functional changes to the card regarding when the tapping is done.
It's a bit confusing, since if there was no functional change then those old rulings should still apply.
[LSJ 20020321] :
>
> > That is a functional change. It now doesnt tap anybody, successfully
> > blocking or not, until someone does block or the action is successful.
>
> ... because that's when you find out if the would-be blocker has
> blocked the action or not. Before that time, the would-be blocker
> may still block the action.
>
> No functional change.
>
Is it correct that the tapping is done at the resolution of the action and not immediatly after blocks are declined?
In the cases of Form of Mist etc, is it the first or the final resolution?
> henrik wrote:
> Is it correct that the tapping is done at the resolution of the action and not immediatly after blocks are declined?
>
It is correct. You're untapped when you would play Deflection.
See also the current cardtext:
>
> Name: Faceless Night
> Cardtype: Action Modifier
> Discipline: Obfuscate
> [obf] +1 stealth.
> [OBF] +1 stealth, and any minion who attempts to block this action and fails becomes tapped when the action is resolved (before resolving the action).
>
> henrik wrote:
> In the cases of Form of Mist etc, is it the first or the final resolution?
>
What's the difference before the strike declaration? The answer is: you tap at resolution if you failed. [LSJ 20080506]
> Pascal wrote:
>
> > henrik wrote:
> > In the cases of Form of Mist etc, is it the first or the final resolution?
> >
> What's the difference before the strike declaration? The answer is: you tap at resolution if you failed. [LSJ 20080506]
>
Well, technically the combat could happen before or after resolving the action.
My guess would've been first resolution after failing an attempt to block, but I wanted to be certain.
New question though, does the effect of Faceless Night apply to each vampire each resolution even if they've already been tapped during an earlier resolution?
A bleeds.
B attempts to block.
A plays superior Faceless Night.
B fails to block.
C attempts to block and succeeds. B is tapped.
A plays Form of Mist and continues the action.
B plays Rat's Warning, but does not attempt to block.
Would B become tapped once the action resolves?
> henrik wrote:
> Well, technically the combat could happen before or after resolving the action.
>
If you successfully block, the combat is the action's resolution.
>
> henrik wrote:
> My guess would've been first resolution after failing an attempt to block, but I wanted to be certain.
>
> New question though, does the effect of Faceless Night apply to each vampire each resolution even if they've already been tapped during an earlier resolution?
>
> A bleeds.
> B attempts to block.
> A plays superior Faceless Night.
> B fails to block.
> C attempts to block and succeeds. B is tapped.
>
> A plays Form of Mist and continues the action.
> B plays Rat's Warning, but does not attempt to block.
>
> Would B become tapped once the action resolves?
>
Let me think on this one.
> Pascal wrote:
>
> > henrik wrote:
> > Well, technically the combat could happen before or after resolving the action.
> >
> If you successfully block, the combat is the action's resolution.
> >
> > henrik wrote:
> > My guess would've been first resolution after failing an attempt to block, but I wanted to be certain.
> >
> > New question though, does the effect of Faceless Night apply to each vampire each resolution even if they've already been tapped during an earlier resolution?
> >
> > A bleeds.
> > B attempts to block.
> > A plays superior Faceless Night.
> > B fails to block.
> > C attempts to block and succeeds. B is tapped.
> >
> > A plays Form of Mist and continues the action.
> > B plays Rat's Warning, but does not attempt to block.
> >
> > Would B become tapped once the action resolves?
> >
> Let me think on this one.
>
He shouldn't tap because he DID block the action succesfully (which resulted in the combat that was ended by form of mist), that the action was later continued is irrelevant for that.
> Klaital wrote:
> He shouldn't tap because he DID block the action succesfully (which resulted in the combat that was ended by form of mist), that the action was later continued is irrelevant for that.
>
Re-read the post.
I have the biggest difficulties following this thread. Would you be kind to summarize everything in the end?
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> henrik wrote:
> New question though, does the effect of Faceless Night apply to each vampire each resolution even if they've already been tapped during an earlier resolution?
>
> A bleeds.
> B attempts to block.
> A plays superior Faceless Night.
> B fails to block.
> C attempts to block and succeeds. B is tapped.
>
> A plays Form of Mist and continues the action.
> B plays Rat's Warning, but does not attempt to block.
>
> Would B become tapped once the action resolves?
>
Yes. Faceless Night taps at {each} resolution.
> Pascal wrote:
> All actions resolve, except those that are canceled.
>
Does this statement come from the rules or LSJ, or is this an original ruling?
Thanks for the reference. It seems the rulebook is incomplete here since actions can also fail besides being blocked or successful, and that's from where my confusion comes. Champion, Faerie Wards, not being able to pay the cost after modifiers and reactions have been played, etc.
It's interesting that Hide the Heart says "action ends", which is similar to "action fails", but saying "ends" implies a resolution, while "fails" does not.
> Aaron wrote:
> It's interesting that Hide the Heart says "action ends", which is similar to "action fails", but saying "ends" implies a resolution, while "fails" does not.
>
'Action Ends' is much more powerful than 'Action Fails', and it would be interesting to study card costs and see if there is an AE vs AF cost difference.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
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> KevinM wrote:
> 'Action Ends' is much more powerful than 'Action Fails', and it would be interesting to study card costs and see if there is an AE vs AF cost difference.
>
What is the difference between 'action fails' and 'action ends'?
> Aaron wrote:
>
> > KevinM wrote:
> > 'Action Ends' is much more powerful than 'Action Fails', and it would be interesting to study card costs and see if there is an AE vs AF cost difference.
> >
> What is the difference between 'action fails' and 'action ends'?
>
When a card "ends" an action, there is no timing window to play Freak Drive, etc., since there is no action (it ended).
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017
> Aaron wrote:
> Is there a timing window to play Freak Drive if your action fails because of Faerie Wards or Champion?
>
Sure, because the action wasn't ended, just failed.
{{EDIT: This is wrong. See my next post in the thread. Apologies.}}
Actions Ends doesn't bring the action to the "action ends" step, where you are able to play action mods, etc. Action Ends just "ends the action". Poof, done.
This brings up a point:
What is the reasoning that an action that is "ended" doesn't bring the action immediately to IV.E (thus allowing action mods to be played)? Was it before and/or is it now important to have a distinction between action "ends" and action "fail"?
This brings up another point:
Within the Complete Rules Outline, it could potentially be clarified:
IV.D.3., and then 6.2.3 in the rulebook, could be reworded from--
"If action was blocked, the action is unsuccessful and blocked."
to
"If action was blocked or failed, the action is unsuccessful, and blocked or failed."
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
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Okay, obviously you can't play Freak Drive after an "action fails" effect, but is there a window for playing "action ends" cards?
According to Kevin there is, but I don't see any rules references or rulings to back that up.
"Action ends" specifically sounds like it would go to the end-of-the-action timing window in a way similar to "combat ends" effects taking you to the end-of-the-round/end-of-combat windows.
"Action fails" sounds like it would do exactly the same thing as "action ends". Would love to see a reference as to how they're different.
> Shard wrote:
> There is no window for either, by card text. Basic FD is playable after a successful action and superior after a block.
>
The rules reference calls the window "Action ends". It's section IV.E. of the outline. This is the window in which you play Freak Drive, Voter Captivation, Cryptic Rider, Provision of the Silsila, and, I imagine, others.
Freak Drive
Fortitude
Only usable at the end of a successful action (after resolving the action). This vampire untaps.
As above, but usable even if the action is blocked (play after combat, if any).
Did you check the rules reference before posting, I wonder? If card text says when something happens, then it describes the timing window. Using that timing window is outlined in the reference.
Combat is part of resolving a blocked action. After the combat resolves you play effects that occur at the end of the action, like superior Freak Drive or Provision of the Silsila.
If you dispensed with the "as above" clause, the superior Freak Drive text could read as "Only usable at the end of an action (after resolving the action or combat, if any)." That's the "action ends" window I'm talking about that the rules reference mentions in IV.E.
Getting back to topic, I still would like to see more documentation about the difference between 'action ends' and 'action fails' that Kevin describes. I want more evidence about the fate of the 'action ends' window when applied to 'action ends' or 'action fails' effects.
> Aaron wrote:
> Okay, obviously you can't play Freak Drive after an "action fails" effect,
>
You can't play Freak Drive, no. ***I was incorrect about that, I had misread the text on Freak Drive.***
You CAN play "end of action" cards after an "action fails" effect, if card text allows (which is what I meant to say earlier, sorry).
CLARIFICATION: groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/89ff5adca284392c
> Aaron wrote:
> but is there a window for playing "action ends" cards?
>
> "Action ends" specifically sounds like it would go to the end-of-the-action timing window in a way similar to "combat ends" effects taking you to the end-of-the-round/end-of-combat windows.
>
Yeah, it does sound like that, I agree.
> Aaron wrote:
> "Action fails" sounds like it would do exactly the same thing as "action ends". Would love to see a reference as to how they're different.
>
CLARIFICATION: groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/b00db622d25f67a9
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017