Cause and Effect - S02E06

Greetings! The sixth episode is now done and uploaded to youtube. We hope that you enjoy it. This time we talked about recursion, with the biggest focus on the Ashur Tablets and Liquidation combo. Next episode will air Tuesday 28th of february at 20:00 CET. Part 1: Part 2: Warning: Spoiler! Finalist Swedish ECQ 2011, 37 players Deck Name : Kiasyd /w masters Author : Isak Bjärmark Esbjörnsson and Michael Holmström Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 5 max: 8 average: 6.58333 3x Isanwayen 6 DOM MYT OBT Kiasyd:4 2x Arcadian, The 8 DOM MYT OBT chi for Kiasyd:5 2x Pherydima 8 DOM MYT NEC obt pot bishop Kiasyd:4 2x Dame Hollerton 5 DOM OBT myt Kiasyd:4 1x Omme Enberbenight 7 MYT OBT cel dom priscus Kiasyd:4 1x Roderick Phillips 7 DOM MYT cel obt tha Kiasyd:4 1x Ermenegildo, The R 5 DOM OBT pot Lasombra:4 Library [77 cards] Action [15] 12x Govern the Unaligned 2x Gremlins 1x Song of Pan Action Modifier [20] 1x Blanket of Night 4x Bonding 4x Conditioning 2x Foreshadowing Destruction 3x Shadow Play 3x Shroud of Absence 3x Stone Travel Action Modifier/Combat [1] 1x Fae Contortion Reaction/Action Modifier [1] 1x Aura Absorption Ally [3] 3x Nocturn Event [1] 1x Anthelios, The Red Star Master [28] 1x Anarch Troublemaker 6x Ashur Tablets 1x Coven, The 1x Direct Intervention 2x Dreams of the Sphinx 1x Fear of Mekhet 1x Giant's Blood 1x Golconda: Inner Peace 1x Great Symposium 1x Jake Washington (Hunter) 5x Liquidation 2x Misdirection 2x Parthenon, The 1x Pentex(TM) Subversion 1x Secure Haven 1x Sudden Reversal Reaction [8] 4x Deflection 1x Delaying Tactics 2x On the Qui Vive 1x Redirection Warning: Spoiler! ECQ Paris 2006, Players: 47, 3 round + final Deck Name : SpeedShambling, Author : Olivier Perez Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity average: 4.42 2x Andrea Giovanni 7 DOM NEC pot vic Giovanni:2 2x Rudolfo Giovanni 3 NEC Giovanni:2 1x Rafaele Giovanni 6 NEC cel obf Giovanni:2 1x Isabel Giovanni 5 DOM NEC pot Giovanni:2 1x Le Dinh Tho 5 NEC aus dom Nagaraja:2 1x Francesca Giovanni 4 dom nec pot Giovanni:2 1x Gloria Giovanni 4 DOM nec Giovanni: 2 1x Cristofero Giovann 3 nec pot Giovanni:2 1x Lia Milliner 3 dom nec Giovanni:3 1x Mario Giovanni 3 nec pot Giovanni:2 Library [80 cards] Action [7] 2x Graverobbing 5x Sudario Refraction Action Modifier [8] 6x Call of the Hungry Dead 2x Conditioning Ally [21] 1x Felix Fix 1x Carlton Van Wyk (Hunter) 1x Leonardo, Mortician 17x Shambling Hordes Event [5] 1x Anthelios, The Red Star 1x FBI Special Affairs Division 3x Unmasking, The Reaction [3] 3x Delaying Tactics Combat [2] 2x Trap Equipment [4] 4x Unlicensed Taxicab Master [31] 4x Acquired Ventrue Assets 1x Charisma 3x Direct Intervention 2x Fame 1x Fortschritt Library 1x Giant's Blood 6x Liquidation 3x Memories of Mortality 5x Parthenon, The 3x Path of Bone, The 1x Pentex Subversion 1x Powerbase: Cape Verde Warning: Spoiler! Mellandagsturnering (Boxing week tournament) Örebro, Sweden, 22 players, 3R + F Erik Torstensson's Tournament Winning Deck, Deck Name : instead of lots Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 5 max: 11 average: 8.58333 4x Anson 8 CEL PRE aus dom prince 3x Alexandra 11 ANI AUS CEL PRE dom inner circle 2x Volker, The Puppet 5 CEL pot prince 1x Anneke 10 AUS CEL PRE dom justicar 1x Francois Villon 10 AUS CEL PRE chi obf pot prince 1x Marcellus 8 AUS CEL pro prince Library [79 cards] Action [4] 2x Big Game 2x Bum's Rush Combat [25] 1x Blur 6x Concealed Weapon 9x Infernal Pursuit 4x Psyche! 3x Pursuit 2x Taste of Vitae Political Action [2] 1x Ancient Influence 1x Reins of Power Reaction [6] 6x Second Tradition: Domain Equipment [6] 6x .44 Magnum Event [2] 1x Anthelios, The Red Star 1x Dragonbound Master [34] 9x Ashur Tablets 1x Dreams of the Sphinx 1x Erciyes Fragments, The 2x Giant's Blood 4x Haven Uncovered 1x Information Highway 1x Lilith's Blessing 1x Parthenon, The 1x Pentex(TM) Subversion 1x Powerbase: Montreal 6x Villein 6x Zillah's Valley Isak Esbjörnsson Bjärmark

Hmm weird, I am sure I posted a reply already earlier... but can't see it... anyway, it was good analysis as always, I was just a bit surprised that didn't see any mention about Carlotta or Pochtli who were pretty much the pioneers of recursion.

Yeah, I do notice that the C&E podcasts suffer somewhat from being hyper-focussed. It's either that the guys don't really want to discuss the topic broadly and completely, or they just all think alike and need someone that doesn't think like them to help them with a show outline. Still, great information and thank god they speak English. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> Klaital wrote: > Hmm weird, I am sure I posted a reply already earlier... but can't see it... anyway, it was good analysis as always, I was just a bit surprised that didn't see any mention about Carlotta or Pochtli who were pretty much the pioneers of recursion. > Indeed, at least Pochtli and also Summon Soul crossed my mind. But I've never seen either been used, so we decided against talking about it. All in the interest of conserving time, which is the biggest critique we've gotten. Carlotta never occurred to me. Though, her recursion is kind of good, but without multiact I can't imagine her being competitive as part of some serious recursion tech. Adam Esbjörnsson, Prince of Örebro

Hmmm. Perhaps a good compromise for the future, would be to mention for 1-2min the forefathers of the current topic, just go get some perspective as to why and what you're discussing now. But I probably shouldn't critique, I'm not part of the podcast. and it's damn good as-is. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> ...snip... > But I've never seen either been used, so we decided against talking about it. > ...snip... > Disclaimer, I haven't had time to watch this episode yet. Anyway... Actually, I'd see this as a great reason to actually -do- talk about it. It's all good and nice to talk about things that everyone knows about, ie. ashurs/liquidation. However the real interesting part should be talking about the corner case cards that isn't included in 50% of all tournament decks. "Everyone" (stupid word, but you get what I mean (I hope)) knows about ashurs/liquidation and sudario refraction. I'd see this as a reason to talk -less- about those cards since you don't really watch this kind of show if you're not already pretty into the game (this is not a "vtes for newbies"-show after all although maybe that would be a good idea...anyway...). Here you have a forum to really show off your crazy ideas, interesting theories that might/might not work, cards that gets forgotten, and people will listen to you and start to think about doing interesting stuff. You could use this as a sort of "catalyst" for combatting deck building stagnation. Sure, summon soul is horrible from a pure recursion view, but its inferior is "gain 2 pool". People play art scam, and that's just gain 2 pool and nothing else, so shouldn't summon soul in a way be "better"? (Ok, it requires NEC whereas art scam only requires a !TOR...) tl;dr Covering "mainstream" and "known combos" is good. But don't miss out on the "wonky sidelines" because if the entire vtes community suddenly decides that sudario or ashurs is the only viable recursion then we might be missing out on potential interesting deck ideas. Please don't just cover the trends, _be_ the trendsetters/inspiration for the trendsetters!

Hey guys. I am a big fan of your show (is it sad that the new C&E is a highlight of my week? Yes I think so). Anyway, I am a mostly casual player who has played a few tourneys (I am part of a playtest group), so I've played alot of VTES but have some bad habits that your show is doing alot to help me inprove. So you referred many times to "girls" decks in this episode, but did not actually discuss any "girls" decks. I know generally what sort of decks you are talking about and I have seen some in the TWDA, but with so many references to "girls" decks it would have been instructive to see you discuss 1 in depth. As is, I still find the recursion concept of deckbuilding difficult (I think that Infernal Pursuit variant would be ridiculously hard to play). Sorry if I seem like a total noob, but maybe I am your target audience? A long time VTES player who is not so good but is trying to get better and trying to wrap his mind around more advanced concepts of this very difficult game. Cheers. Look forward to the next episode.

Wastaz. Summon Soul inferior gives 2 BLOOD, not pool. I wish it would be pool. On another topic, I once had a really wacky deck that worked reasonably well at the time, crypt was basically Marcus Vitel advanced, Pochtli, and Carlotta. Idea was this, Marcus Vitel gets couple copies of Legion, and makes like half a dozen or so fledglings from dominate skill cards, which in the process pretty much dumps your whole library to your ashheap, and then you use Pochtli and Carlotta to get back the cards you want to use from there. Hopefully your prey had camarilla vampire so all the fledglings get +1 bleed from Marcus, either way, have someone play psychic veil and then they all bleed with as many governs as you can fetch back, which were used early game by Marcus to get Pochtli and Carlotta in the play cheap. Now that deck was years ago, now you could probably make it hell of a lot better by adding ashur tablets there, so then after you have dumped your whole library, you fetch the ashurs back and then pop them to get back dozen cards that you need to oust your prey.

Other recursion options are - Waste Management Operation - Epikasta Rigatos I use both in www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?deck=view&id=3199

I put up an updated version of my legion deck in the deck clinic forum if you want to take a look and give some input about it.

The free untap with necromancy version of Gear Up makes it a very strong recursion card also.

Undele also provides some very strong recursion to vote decks.

> Non-existant user wrote: > Undele also provides some very strong recursion to vote decks. > Undele was mentioned in the episode.