Heys!
A question came up yesterday on our vtes forum concerning "set the range" effects. Some texts include "skip the Determine Range step this round" (Selective Silence, Neebi, Sniper Rifle, Cailean etc...) and some do not ( Brick by Brick, Cold Aura, Squirrel's Balance, High Ground etc...).
These cards spawned from different releases yet some of them include either kind of texting (LOTN - Selective Silence vs Cold Aura) which makes one think that maneuvers can be used when playing par example Brick by Brick.
Am I missing some kind of essential rule or ruling to believe so?
NC of Hungary
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> Malachy wrote:
> These cards spawned from different releases yet some of them include either kind of texting (LOTN - Selective Silence vs Cold Aura) which makes one think that maneuvers can be used when playing par example Brick by Brick.
>
> Am I missing some kind of essential rule or ruling to believe so?
>
[LSJ 20081228]
>
> LSJ wrote:
> That would be called a maneuver, not setting range.
>
> Once set, the range cannot be changed.
>
> General wrote:
> If an effect "sets" the range of a round (and therefore skips the maneuver phase), no other effect can be used to reset the range. [RTR 19970630]
>
If it helps, treat "skip the Determine Range step..." as reminder text.
I see, thanks! And what if two "set the range" effects meet at the same "phase" (Sniper is triggered when the block happens so I believe the acting minion's before range cards that set the range don't help him, but sniper's effect doesn't work if one goes with Squirrel's Balance and so on...)? I suppose the acting minion's card has priority...
NC of Hungary
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> Malachy wrote:
> I see, thanks! And what if two "set the range" effects meet at the same "phase" (Sniper is triggered when the block happens so I believe the acting minion's before range cards that set the range don't help him, but sniper's effect doesn't work if one goes with Squirrel's Balance and so on...)? I suppose the acting minion's card has priority...
>
Once a "set range" effect has been used, no other set range effect may be used.
Usually, it's the acting player that can use his "set range" effect first (if any).
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Malachy wrote:
> I see, thanks! And what if two "set the range" effects meet at the same "phase" (Sniper is triggered when the block happens so I believe the acting minion's before range cards that set the range don't help him, but sniper's effect doesn't work if one goes with Squirrel's Balance and so on...)? I suppose the acting minion's card has priority...
>
In general, the acting Methuselah has priority (the 'impulse') to play the next effect at all points, until they decline to play an effect in that timing window. So in general the acting Methuselah will get to do it first - thus preventing the defending Methuselah from playing a set range effect.
However, if the acting Methuselah declines to play an effect (passing the impulse to the defending Methuselah) and the defending Methuselah then chooses to set range. For example, if the defending Methuselah unexpectedly plays Shadow Step, the acting Methuselah then cannot play Selective Silence to force range to be close.
There are also some exceptions, like for example, if an Asanbonsam Ghoul blocks a d action, the range is set to close even before the combat starts so acting methuselah cannot set range.
> Klaital wrote:
> There are also some exceptions, like for example, if an Asanbonsam Ghoul blocks a d action, the range is set to close even before the combat starts so acting methuselah cannot set range.
>
So what happens if an Asanbonsam Ghoul blocks a D action that had been played with Squirrel Balance at [cel] or Neutral Guard at [obe]?
> Mael wrote:
>
> > Klaital wrote:
> > There are also some exceptions, like for example, if an Asanbonsam Ghoul blocks a d action, the range is set to close even before the combat starts so acting methuselah cannot set range.
> >
> So what happens if an Asanbonsam Ghoul blocks a D action that had been played with Squirrel Balance at [cel] or Neutral Guard at [obe]?
>
I have no idea since they all use similar wording.
> Mael wrote:
>
> > Klaital wrote:
> > There are also some exceptions, like for example, if an Asanbonsam Ghoul blocks a d action, the range is set to close even before the combat starts so acting methuselah cannot set range.
> >
> So what happens if an Asanbonsam Ghoul blocks a D action that had been played with Squirrel Balance at [cel] or Neutral Guard at [obe]?
>
I'm interested in that also.
"Once set, the range cannot be changed."
I can see many different views. So does Neutral Guard set the range outside combat instantly when you play it. Asanbonsam Ghoul sets the range after successfully block which is right before combat and Neutral Guard says "when this vampire is in combat, the range is automatically long".
I would say Asanbosam Ghoul wins Neutral Guard b/c range sets happens first: after successfully block. Neutral Guard says "when this vampire is in combat". But it is whole different situation with Squirrel Balance . Squirrel Balance and Asanbonsam Ghoul happens same time.
I really don't understand why VTES has to use so many different wordings. All those cards could have been changed to use wording "before range is determined, set the range".
> Mael wrote:
> So what happens if an Asanbonsam Ghoul blocks a D action that had been played with Squirrel Balance at [cel] or Neutral Guard at [obe]?
>
The first effect to kick in wins. (And can prevent later ones being played.)
[LSJ 20080215]
>
> LSJ wrote:
> > What about an acting minion playing Squirrel Balance at cel, and the
> > reacting minion playing Internal Recursion at tem.
>
> SB sets the range to long.
>
> > What about the same reacting minion from before, and the acting minion
> > wants to play Selective Silence.
>
> IR sets the range when played.
>
> > Just trying to figure out range-setting.
>
> Once set, it cannot be re-set.
>
The third answer from LSJ implies that in the first case, if you've played Squirrel Balance, you can't play Internal Recursion.
Neutral Guard would similarly trump Internal Recursion.
Both NG and SB should trump Asanbonsam.
> Surreal wrote:
> I really don't understand why VTES has to use so many different wordings. All those cards could have been changed to use wording "before range is determined, set the range".
>
They'd work differently.
Asanbonsam kicks in at block, and so trumps (for example) an acting minion who wants to play Shadow Step. In a situation where two effects were both just going off before range, the acting Methuselah would have the impulse and could order their effect first. With the current wording, some effects don't go off at the same time, so the impact of the impulse is different.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > Mael wrote:
> > So what happens if an Asanbonsam Ghoul blocks a D action that had been played with Squirrel Balance at [cel] or Neutral Guard at [obe]?
> >
> The first effect to kick in wins. (And can prevent later ones being played.)
>
> [LSJ 20080215]
> >
> > LSJ wrote:
> > > What about an acting minion playing Squirrel Balance at cel, and the
> > > reacting minion playing Internal Recursion at tem.
> >
> > SB sets the range to long.
> >
> > > What about the same reacting minion from before, and the acting minion
> > > wants to play Selective Silence.
> >
> > IR sets the range when played.
> >
> > > Just trying to figure out range-setting.
> >
> > Once set, it cannot be re-set.
> >
> The third answer from LSJ implies that in the first case, if you've played Squirrel Balance, you can't play Internal Recursion.
>
> Neutral Guard would similarly trump Internal Recursion.
>
> Both NG and SB should trump Asanbonsam.
>
Correct.
Regarding the Asanbonsam: If the acting minion plays Squirrel Balance or Neutral Guard, and Asanbonsam successfully blocks, the first round of combat is at close range.
> Pascal wrote:
> Regarding the Asanbonsam: If the acting minion plays Squirrel Balance or Neutral Guard, and Asanbonsam successfully blocks, the first round of combat is at close range.
>
Neutral Guard's effect checks to see if the acting vampire is in combat, which would be after a successful block (meaning Asanbonsam's effect has already triggered and set the range) so I can see how Asanbonsam trumps that one.
Squirrel Balance and Asanbonsam seems to have identical card texts timing wise (regarding the range effect). Both check for a (successful) block and triggers an effect that sets the range in the upcoming combat.
What's the reason for not letting the acting minion's effect take precedence? After a successful block the impulse should be at the acting methusaleh, meaning xe should get to chose which effect to resolve first.
The only difference I see is that Asanbonsam Ghoul is a card in play, while SB is played. Both are still "active" when resolving the effect though, so I don't really see how that would matter.
Name: Neutral Guard
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Obeah/Fortitude
Only usable when this vampire announces an action.
[obe] For the remainder of this action, when this vampire is in combat, the range is automatically long; skip the determine range step of each round.
Name: Asanbonsam Ghoul
Cardtype: Ally
Clan: Tzimisce
Cost: 2 blood
Ghoul with 3 life. 2 strength, 0 bleed.
Asanbonsam gets +1 intercept when blocking a action. If he successfully blocks a action, range in the first round of the resulting combat is automatically close (skip the determine range step that round).
Name: Squirrel Balance
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Spiritus/Celerity
[cel] Only usable when the action is announced. If blocked, range in the first round of the resulting combat is automatically set to long.
> Pascal wrote:
>
> > jamesatzephyr wrote:
> > Neutral Guard would similarly trump Internal Recursion.
> >
> > Both NG and SB should trump Asanbonsam.
> >
> Correct.
> Regarding the Asanbonsam: If the acting minion plays Squirrel Balance or Neutral Guard, and Asanbonsam successfully blocks, the first round of combat is at close range.
>
I assert above that NG trumps IR, which you appear to say is correct.
If your contention for Asanbonsam, however, is that Neutral Guard (played earlier) doesn't actually kick in until you're in combat, that's inconsistent with NG trumping IR.
Sorry for the last part of my previous post.
SB vs Asanbonsam => Long range.
NG vs Asanbonsam => Close range on the first round, long range on the others.
SB+NG vs Asanbonsam => Long range. (but I wonder if that's really playable)
SB + Storm Sewers [+ NG vs Asanbonsam] => I don't know, it depends on which of SB or SS is used first.
> Pascal wrote:
> Sorry for the last part of my previous post.
>
> SB vs Asanbonsam => Long range.
> NG vs Asanbonsam => Close range on the first round, long range on the others.
> SB+NG vs Asanbonsam => Long range. (but I wonder if that's really playable)
> SB + Storm Sewers [+ NG vs Asanbonsam] => I don't know, it depends on which of SB or SS is used first.
>
If you tap Storm Sewers can you even play Squirrel Balance because that would be two range sets or vice versa. "The first effect to kick in wins. (And can prevent later ones being played.)"
So order things happens are?
First: SS/SB -> Asanbonsam/Internal Recursion -> Neutral Guard (combat starts) -> rest range sets
> Tzimiakira wrote:
> Would you mind to explain more detailed why Asanbosan prevails over SB?
>
> Thanks!
>
What do you mean? Pascal wrote quite the opposite.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director