Card Idea: Deep-seeded Infiltration

Name: Deep-seeded Infiltration Cardtype: Cost: 2 blood Only usable after successfully bleeding your prey for 2 or more. Your prey reveals his hand to you. Put this card on this vampire, the vampire with this card gets +2 bleed while bleeding your prey. Burn this card if this minion is blocked by a minion controlled by your prey. A vampire may only have one Deep-seeded Infiltration. Game development: - Increase the viability of the City !Gangrel through leverage of their clan disciplines. Flavor: - Obfuscate & Protean both possibilitate the impersonation of a third party (Mask of 1K faces, Old Friends, Loki's Gift) so how effective can we assume that a junction of the two would be at the same task? Pretty darn effective, if you asked me. Balance: - Ousting power is the challenge that this card aims to tackle. I didn't want it to be too easy to play so I drew heavily from Enkil Cog and made it only be playable in the case of a successful bleed on the prey. Much like Enkil, it is also a modifier and not an action since the !Gangrel don't multiact much and need card efficiency. - Enkidu and other big'ol'meanies never left my mind while designing the card, so I made the restriction that if you're blocked by your prey the card goes away, conversely the bleed needing to be for two is a tricky restriction to impose on the !Gangrel... but once again it is aimed at making this card less playable by Enkidu. I'm not too sure if it should be dropped to increase the general playability of the card or not. - The +2 bleed only works on the prey because it seemed thematically correct for the minion to only receive bleed while attacking the infiltrated Meth. Competitiveness: - High. Ousting power where there was little to none, enough said. Drain

I feel "2 or more" is too heavy restriction with city gangrel abilities. Also that card doesn't combo at all with strong protean cards like Form of Mist or Earth Meld. That would just change city gangrel to use obfuscate stealth and forget protean even more.

> Surreal wrote: > I feel "2 or more" is too heavy restriction with city gangrel abilities. > That sounds about right to me for a permament and responsible +2 bleed that takes no action. The card would probably be less disruptive if all the 2s on it were 1s, though: costs 1 blood, play on any successful bleed against your prey, +1 bleed. > > Also that card doesn't combo at all with strong protean cards like Form of Mist or Earth Meld. That would just change city gangrel to use obfuscate stealth and forget protean even more. > That's easy to fix: make it burn on an unsuccessful bleed instead of a block.

> Non-existant user wrote: > That's easy to fix: make it burn on an unsuccessful bleed instead of a block. > Even that wouldn't work with earth meld. Earth meld is very strong card but city gangrels are just missing decent actions. I would like to see some kind of permanent or modifier +bleed when target of the bleed doesn't control ready untapped minions (like Codex of the Edenic Groundskeepers) for PRO or PRO+CEL/OBF. That works good with earth meld and form of mist (+deep song also).

> Surreal wrote: > I feel "2 or more" is too heavy restriction with city gangrel abilities. > Yes, quite possibly. > Surreal wrote: > Also that card doesn't combo at all with strong protean cards like Form of Mist or Earth Meld. That would just change city gangrel to use obfuscate stealth and forget protean even more. > Disagree. Protean stealth includes Rapid Change and Earth Control. Why should a given card just promote those that are already the top-tier cards of a discipline? > Non-existant user wrote: > The card would probably be less disruptive if all the 2s on it were 1s, though: costs 1 blood, play on any successful bleed against your prey, +1 bleed. > Agreed. It's just that OBF PRO is fairly difficult to find and +1 bleed is ultimately not swingy enough. After all, even if you're playing City Gangrel you typically will not have OBF PRO on all or even most of your minions. > Surreal wrote: > Even that wouldn't work with earth meld. Earth meld is very strong card but city gangrels are just missing decent actions. I would like to see some kind of permanent or modifier +bleed when target of the bleed doesn't control ready untapped minions (like Codex of the Edenic Groundskeepers) for PRO or PRO+CEL/OBF. That works good with earth meld and form of mist (+deep song also). > I see what you mean. But the Codex already exists and works beautifully just like you describe... why make an additional card catering to that? Drain

> Drain wrote: > Disagree. Protean stealth includes Rapid Change and Earth Control. Why should a given card just promote those that are already the top-tier cards of a discipline? > I see little use with PRO stealth when you have also OBF with same vampire and those PRO cards you mentioned doesn't offer really anything new you can't get from OBF. Meld and mist are like protean signature cards and offer cool play in combat and works good with CEL also (like Meld+Psyche or addiotionals+mist). I would like to see city gangrel to get more out of those top-tier cards b/c it isn't happening now without ousting power. > Drain wrote: > I see what you mean. But the Codex already exists and works beautifully just like you describe... why make an additional card catering to that? > I just feel it would work good with PRO and offer unique play rather than just normal +bleed cards. It also works with city gangrel combat: Meld+psyche beat the opposing minion and bleed with next action. City gangrel are actually quite good in combat and "multi-acting" with meld+psyche and that kind of play is fun and different from other discplines. EDIT There is one example deck: extrala.blogspot.com/2011/12/deck-of-month-november-2011-toreador.html I would like to see that kind of deck possible with normal city gangrel apart from Enkidu (and not make that deck too strong but it's very cool deck).

Name: Deep-seeded Infiltration Cardtype: Cost: 1 blood Only usable after successfully bleeding your prey. Your prey reveals his hand to you. Put this card on this vampire, the vampire with this card gets +1 bleed while bleeding your prey or +2 bleed if he or she controls no ready untapped minions. Burn this card if this minion bleeds your prey unsuccessfully. A vampire may only have one Deep-seeded Infiltration. Here. Tried to incorporate your suggestions to make this more usable, powerful and appealing. Feels a bit wall-o-texty, but tell me how you like it. Drain

Wording: Name: Deep-seeded Infiltration Cardtype: Action modifier Cost: 1 blood Only usable after a successful bleed action against your prey. [obf][pro] Look at your prey's hand. [OBF][PRO] Put this card on this vampire. This vampire gets +1 bleed against your prey and an additional +1 bleed if your prey controls no ready untapped minions. Burn this card at the end of an unsuccessful bleed action performed by this minion. A vampire may have only one Deep-seeded Infiltration. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Appreciate the streamlining. No comment on the card itself, though? Drain

Personally, I like the overall idea - dual-discipline aggression for the !Gangrel (and other lucky enough vampires) - but I'm not sure that, for me, it captures what I'd like the !Gangrel to do. This way, it sort of encourages going for a fairly routine stealth-bleed deck - lots of Obf stealth, lots of Pro stealth (choose according to your needs/disciplines/blood costs), maybe a bunch of bleed cards (Hacks, Phones). Possibly go Anarch and play Skullduggery - although it's mostly the ability to flex between stealth and bleed that makes that card interesting to me, but maybe you'd try it, and you could also use Monkey Wrench if you were a !Gangrel Anarch, maybe. Spying Mission would help a little with bounce (responsible stealth-bleed). You could probably include a few combat surprises for would-be rushers, whether that's the odd claw or the odd Earth Meld. And with the exception of the odd aggressive combat option, it kinda feels like more or less every other stealth-bleed deck going - lots of stealth, some bleed, maybe some combat defence. And even there, the Dementation Malkavians can throw out the odd Coma, the Lasombra can Arms of the Abyss + Disarm, that kind of thing. What would feel more flavoursome but - and these are the important words - probably be a damn sight less playable would be something like: [OBF][PRO] Play at the end of combat when this vampire ir still ready and the opponent is not. Put this card on this vampire. This vampire has... ... and then go with the +1 bleed, +1 bleed if no ready vampires option.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > and you could also use Monkey Wrench if you were a !Gangrel Anarch, maybe. > And indeed it's the fact that you can play it that make it precious, more than the number you actually play. Monkey wrench is a watered-down Walk of caine, and a methuselah with 10 or 12 blood could be in killing range if you have high-blood anarchs. The main problem with Monkey wrench is that you usually can't have horde of weenie anarch (even if in the lore it's a lot more likely than Serena the white anarch ...), and keeping so much blood is pretty hard, especially with smallish !gangrel. Maybe a card that replicate the high-cost, high-bleed capacity of Walk of caine could be what !Gangrel are lacking ?

> Ohlmann wrote: > Maybe a card that replicate the high-cost, high-bleed capacity of Walk of caine could be what !Gangrel are lacking ? > It might give you an opportunity to explore the 'pack' elements that were suggested for the !Gangrel. e.g. burning blood off other !Gangrel you control, tapping other !Gangrel you control, having some effect that's capped based on the number of !Gangrel you control. Somewhere between Walk of Caine and Ensemble, perhaps.

Mobilised Pack 1 blood Put this card into play. While this card is in play, any Gangrel Antitribu which is older than the acting vampire may burn 1 blood to give the acting Gangrel Antitribu +1 bleed. Aware Pack 1 blood Put this card into play. While this card is in play, each ready Gangrel Antitribu you control may burn 1 blood during an action directed at you to give a blocking Gangrel Antitribu +1 intercept. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Mobilised Pack > > 1 blood > Put this card into play. While this card is in play, any Gangrel Antitribu which is older than the acting vampire may burn 1 blood to give the acting Gangrel Antitribu +1 bleed. > > Aware Pack > > 1 blood > Put this card into play. While this card is in play, each ready Gangrel Antitribu you control may burn 1 blood during an action directed at you to give a blocking Gangrel Antitribu +1 intercept. > Both cards could be more interesting to the Country Gangrel - who find blood gain much easier - rather than the City Gangrel. The Country Gangrel have Fortitude, Crows+Taste of Vitae etc. And, of course, for the Country Gangrel, they can stack a few Deep Song - get into combat, or bleed, and oh look, I can get some bonuses too. And they can Freak after bringing one of these out. The City Gangrel are generally in a poorer situation - less blood gain, harder multi-acting. Deep-seeded Infiltration goes some way towards aiding the poorer City half of the clan. These cards seem to be neutral at best, or benefiting the Country quite a bit more.

Maybe an action that require !gangrel to bleed with +1 bleed for each successful action completed this turn ? This mecanically draw upon the stealth nature of the city gangrel and make blocking action very important.

That would be absolutely broken for an Una deck however. Tool up and bam bleed for 20+ to finish it up. Lidingö Scourge

> Louhi wrote: > That would be absolutely broken for an Una deck however. Tool up and bam bleed for 20+ to finish it up. > Then, by !gangrel having successfully acted.

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > Louhi wrote: > > That would be absolutely broken for an Una deck however. Tool up and bam bleed for 20+ to finish it up. > > > Then, by !gangrel having successfully acted. > Potentially ripe for abuse with a Turbo-deck. Or with any sort of breed deck.

Then why not take a leaf out of the Blood Bros book... Mobilised Pack Action 1 blood Pack. Put this card in play. When a Gangrel Antitribu you control is acting you may tap this card and X other Gangrel Antitribu you control to give the acting vampire +X bleed. If this action is blocked, untap all of the non-acting vampires you tapped with this card. You may not control any Pack cards with a different name. Aware Pack Action 1 blood Pack. Put this card in play. When a Gangrel Antitribu you control is attempting to block an action you may tap this card and X other Gangrel Antitribu you control to give the blocking vampire +X intercept. If the block attempt fails, untap X/2 (rounded down) of the vampires you tapped with this card. You may not control any Pack cards with a different name. Lurking Pack Action 1 blood Pack. Put this card in play. When a Gangrel Antitribu you control is acting you may tap this card and X other Gangrel Antitribu you control to give the acting minion +X stealth. If the action is blocked you may untap X/2 (rounded down) of the vampires you tapped with this card. You may not control any Pack cards with a different name. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

why not give their combat some ousting power instead? if opposing minion leaves ready controller loses x pool (hurt them where it hurts most). or,...if opposing vamp leaves ready you can search for a fame and put it on vamp (this killing will get in the news). or,...if opposing minion leaves ready you can chose another minion controlled by that meth and enter combat with it. (your friend just told me where you live) all to be a combat card with 2 superior citygang-skills. w

> Cooper wrote: > why not give their combat some ousting power instead? > It may be useful for city gangrel to have an alternative if they have no hope to kill theirs prey vampire in combat (for example, gargoyle with rockheart and other prevention). After all, they are not onlydangerous in combat, they also are sneaky.

the way i see it now is that they suck becasuse they have nothing that deals pooldamage. giving them more stealth or intercept isnt the answer. giving them more bleed could be, but makes them just another stealth bleeder. I think you should give them alternative ways to deal pooldamage then. some sort of enticement/victim of habit/choir. but then with a !gang-background and flavor. just a thought, not very well thought=through: inf: get some extra transfers sup: lose x transfers, and deal x/2 pooldagame. or you can use a discardphase action to make your prey burn a pool. or ofcourse just simple: "get there first" action inf: your prey loses x pool sup: your prey loses more pool or perhaps: obf:gain a pool obf-cel:your prey loses a pool, you gain 1 OBF-CEL your prey loses 2 pool, you gain 2 OBF-CEL-PRO: your prey loses 3 pool. or variations on the theme, W W

I find it curious that everyone thinks the City !Gangrel need help with ousting power but no one seems to quite agree on how best to do it. Drain

That's because we want something with distinctive gameplay, flavorful feel, and/or that won't be exploited by an already strong deck. It's far from easy. Also, not everybody have the same opinion on the !gangrel. Some think they are heavy diabolist, other think they are mainly pack animals, some other yet think they are natural killer, with some amount of overlap between the opinion. Something that help create the feel of a lion pack is naturally different from something that create the geel of a lone tiger.

> Ohlmann wrote: > Also, not everybody have the same opinion on the !gangrel. Some think they are heavy diabolist, other think they are mainly pack animals, some other yet think they are natural killer, with some amount of overlap between the opinion. > In particular, in V:TES terms, they don't have a niche, or an edge in one particualr area. Not that it would necessarily be a strong strategy (now) - but nothing leaps out at you and says, in V:TES, "here's something I can do - even if it's a bit rubbish". When you do have something like that, it tends to focus opinion a little bit more. For example, melee weapon combat isn't all that great, but it's a bit of a !Salubri signature so you often see suggestions in that area. The City Gangrel, they have a somewhat ineffectual combat angle - aggro=poke combined with little damage, little blood gain, and Psyche! (one of the weaker anti-S:CE cards). Lots of stealth with little bleed. No real wall capabilities. No particularly significant political angle. Pool gain is moderately tricky. They have a few possible breeders (although a quick search says they're in group 3-4 only, really), but blood gain is slightly trickier. Multi-acting is hard - Dual Form inferior isn't totally unplayable, but it's expensive (it's that blood gain again), and it's up-front - it yells 'block me, jam my hand' to a player that cares about that, whereas Freak Drive is opportunistic and can come after. Maybe multi-acting would be an option. Bestial Momentum [cel][pro][combat] Maneuver to close range, or press to continue. [CEL][PRO][actmod] Play at the end of a successful bleed action; this vampire untaps and takes a action to enter combat with a ready minion. Alternatively, play at the end of a successful action to enter combat; this vampire untaps and bleeds your prey as a action. A vampire can play Bestial Momentum at [CEL][PRO] once per turn.