Spirit marionette says to tap "a ready minion controlled by your prey". Is this optional or mandatory? It does not use the usual "may" to indicate optionality.
1) Are you allowed to not tap a minion even if prey controls one?
2) Can you bleed with this card even if your prey controls no minions?
3) Can you bleed with this card if your prey controls only one minion and this minion has Secure Haven?
Name: Spirit Marionette
Cardtype: Action
Discipline: Obeah/Dominate
[dom] Bleed at +1 bleed.
[obe] Bleed at +1 bleed and tap a ready minion controlled by your prey (even if the target of the bleed is changed).
[OBE] +1 stealth action. Take control of a ready untapped minion until the end of the next action. That minion must bleed your prey unless he or she must hunt.
Name: Secure Haven
Cardtype: Master
Cost: 1 pool
Master: unique location. Haven.
Put this card on a minion you control. This minion cannot be {the target of other Methuselahs' actions}. Any Methuselah burns an additional pool when playing master cards on (or that target) this minion. Burn this card if this minion enters torpor. A minion may have only one haven.
Adam Esbjörnsson,
Prince of Örebro
> Xaddam wrote:
> Spirit marionette says to tap "a ready minion controlled by your prey". Is this optional or mandatory?
>
Mandatory.
> Xaddam wrote:
> 1) Are you allowed to not tap a minion even if prey controls one?
>
No.
You may choose a minion that is already tapped though.
> Xaddam wrote:
> 2) Can you bleed with this card even if your prey controls no minions?
>
No.
LSJ 2003-04-08
>
> If a card targets (chooses, selects, is played on, etc.) some target, then the card can only be played if an appropriate target is available.
>
> Xaddam wrote:
> 3) Can you bleed with this card if your prey controls only one minion and this minion has Secure Haven?
>
No.
It is a directed action and thus prohibited from targeting the minion in the Secure Haven.
LSJ 10-10-2003 {incompletely addressed, but the only post from LSJ with both Secure Haven and Spirit Marionette}
> Adonai wrote:
>
> > Xaddam wrote:
> > Spirit marionette says to tap "a ready minion controlled by your prey". Is this optional or mandatory?
> >
> Mandatory.
>
> > Xaddam wrote:
> > 1) Are you allowed to not tap a minion even if prey controls one?
> >
> No.
> You may choose a minion that is already tapped though.
>
> > Xaddam wrote:
> > 2) Can you bleed with this card even if your prey controls no minions?
> >
> No.
> LSJ 2003-04-08
> >
> > If a card targets (chooses, selects, is played on, etc.) some target, then the card can only be played if an appropriate target is available.
> >
Would these answers apply to all cards with similar enough wording as well? (Public Trust comes to mind.)
I've thought there to be a meaningful difference between Public Trust's text and Undue Influence's text since UI explicitly states that you must choose a vampire in your uncontrolled region when announcing the action.
Should the targeted vampire be announced when announcing the action in all these cases (Public Trust, Undue Influence and Spirit Marionette)?
> Adonai wrote:
>
> > Xaddam wrote:
> > 3) Can you bleed with this card if your prey controls only one minion and this minion has Secure Haven?
> >
> No.
> It is a directed action and thus prohibited from targeting the minion in the Secure Haven.
> LSJ 10-10-2003 {incompletely addressed, but the only post from LSJ with both Secure Haven and Spirit Marionette}
>
If the target of the bleed got changed (Deflection etc), would the acting methusaleh's prey still be able to block? I would say yes since SM would be a action targeting a vampire xe controls, but the question is new to me.
Undue Influence
Type: Action
Requires: anarch Chimerstry/Presence/Quietus
+1 stealth action. Requires a ready anarch. Choose a vampire in your uncontrolled region.
[chi] Move 1 blood from an uncontrolled minion in any uncontrolled region to the chosen vampire.
Bleed. If the bleed is successful, put 1 blood count
Public Trust
Type: Action
Requires: Presence
Cost: 1 blood
Bleed at +2 bleed.
As above, and if the bleed is successful (for 1 or more), add 1 counter from the blood bank to a vampire in your uncontrolled region.
> henrik wrote:
> I've thought there to be a meaningful difference between Public Trust's text and Undue Influence's text since UI explicitly states that you must choose a vampire in your uncontrolled region when announcing the action.
>
The question is a bit moot since you could play Public Trust at inferior.
But if you really want to play it at superior, you need to have a vampire in your uncontrolled region.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Adonai wrote:
>
> > Xaddam wrote:
> > Spirit marionette says to tap "a ready minion controlled by your prey". Is this optional or mandatory?
> >
> Mandatory.
>
> > Xaddam wrote:
> > 1) Are you allowed to not tap a minion even if prey controls one?
> >
> No.
> You may choose a minion that is already tapped though.
>
Correct.
> Adonai wrote:
>
> > Xaddam wrote:
> > 2) Can you bleed with this card even if your prey controls no minions?
> >
> No.
> LSJ 2003-04-08
> >
> > If a card targets (chooses, selects, is played on, etc.) some target, then the card can only be played if an appropriate target is available.
> >
Although this looks quite fair, the problem of 3rd Tradition / Creation Rites ("do you have to announce how much blood you move when declaring the action") would seem to point to the other direction. Inferior Spirit Marionnette doesn't target a minion controlled by the prey, but only the Methuselah being bled. [LSJ 20050621]
I'll have to think a tad more on that one.
> Adonai wrote:
>
> > Xaddam wrote:
> > 3) Can you bleed with this card if your prey controls only one minion and this minion has Secure Haven?
> >
> No.
> It is a directed action and thus prohibited from targeting the minion in the Secure Haven.
>
> LSJ 10-10-2003 {incompletely addressed, but the only post from LSJ with both Secure Haven and Spirit Marionette}
>
In that very link, LSJ says the wording on Secure Haven ("The minion with this card cannot be affected by actions") should be changed. The current wording ("This minion cannot be the target of actions"), associated to the ruling above (The only target of the action is the target of the bleed) show that the minion with Secure Haven can be tapped by inferior Spirit Marionnette.
> Pascal wrote:
> Inferior Spirit Marionnette doesn't target a minion controlled by the prey, but only the Methuselah being bled. [LSJ 20050621]
> I'll have to think a tad more on that one.
>
This should have been overturned by www.thelasombra.com/rules/RTR080808.htm, by my reading. Please include it in your consideration.
Actions which target multiple things (and Spirit Marionette targets 2 things) are directed and stay directed actions even if one of the targets changes.
> Adonai wrote:
>
> > Pascal wrote:
> > Inferior Spirit Marionnette doesn't target a minion controlled by the prey, but only the Methuselah being bled. [LSJ 20050621]
> > I'll have to think a tad more on that one.
> >
> This should have been overturned by www.thelasombra.com/rules/RTR080808.htm, by my reading. Please include it in your consideration.
>
> Actions which target multiple things (and Spirit Marionette targets 2 things) are directed and stay directed actions even if one of the targets changes.
>
Spirit Marionnette targets one thing, and that's the target of the bleed action.
I linked to the first occurrence of that ruling, but LSJ confirmed it in 2010:
[LSJ 20100519]
>
> On May 19, 12:27 pm, Jozxyqk <> wrote:
>
> > But, under the new D action rules, if my prey bounces a Spirit Marionette
> > bleed, he is still a target of the action because I'm going to tap his
> > minion. Correct?
>
> No. Spirit Marionette only targets the Methuselah being bled.
> groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/7ab4c9244a2c1592
>
Also one quick question, as i do not understand it fully.
When playing spirit marionette at inferior obeah, do you anounce which minion you will tap when playing spirit marionette, or when the bleed resolves?
> Pendargon wrote:
> Also one quick question, as i do not understand it fully.
>
> When playing spirit marionette at inferior obeah, do you anounce which minion you will tap when playing spirit marionette, or when the bleed resolves?
>
When announced. This also means that you can't play Spirit Marionette at [obe] if there isn't a legal target.
However, you can tap an already tapped minion, so this basically means "You can't play [obe] Spirit Marionette if your prey doesn't have any ready minions." You could choose their tapped Ossian and tap it redundantly.
Back to
>
> Xadam wrote:
> 2) Can you bleed with this card if you prey controls no minion?
>
Answer given by Adonai ("No") is correct. [LSJ 20040424] (which is quite explicit).
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > Pendargon wrote:
> > Also one quick
> > question, as i do not understand it fully.
> >
> > When playing spirit marionette at inferior obeah, do you anounce which minion you will tap when playing spirit marionette, or when the bleed resolves?
> >
> When announced. This also means that you can't play Spirit Marionette at [obe] if there isn't a legal target.
>
> However, you can tap an already tapped minion, so this basically means "You can't play [obe] Spirit Marionette if your prey doesn't have any ready minions." You could choose their tapped Ossian and tap it redundantly.
>
"Target" isn't the right word here. "Eligible minion" is better.
> Pascal wrote:
> "Target" isn't the right word here. "Eligible minion" is better.
>
This is the source of the disagreement.
An action to tap a minion controlled by your prey requires a target.
It is also always a directed action because it targets something controlled by someone else and is not a political action.
That the action has 2 effects and potentially 2 targets should not make one of them a non-directed effect.
It is my belief that LSJ was wrong on this, and that an over-ruling would be appropriate.
I'm done presenting my arguments, and I will abide with Pascal's ruling.
> Adonai wrote:
>
> > Pascal wrote:
> > "Target" isn't the right word here. "Eligible minion" is better.
> >
> This is the source of the disagreement.
> An action to tap a minion controlled by your prey requires a target.
> It is also always a directed action because it targets something controlled by someone else and is not a political action.
>
> That the action has 2 effects and potentially 2 targets should not make one of them a non-directed effect.
>
> It is my belief that LSJ was wrong on this, and that an over-ruling would be appropriate.
>
> I'm done presenting my arguments, and I will abide with Pascal's ruling.
>
Much like Taunt the Caged Beast?
EDIT: one thing I forgot to mention:
When does the tapping of the minion occur?
It seems to me that it is after the successful resolution of the bleed action, or at least denial of blocks.
If so, it is after all blocks have been denied by the Prey, because deflecting is denying block implicitly.
Therefore the question might be moot, since he denied blocking the action.
> Brum wrote:
> EDIT: one thing I forgot to mention:
> When does the tapping of the minion occur?
> It seems to me that it is after the successful resolution of the bleed action, or at least denial of blocks.
> If so, it is after all blocks have been denied by the Prey, because deflecting is denying block implicitly.
> Therefore the question might be moot, since he denied blocking the action.
>
I'm confused. Why do you think that any of the effects of the action would happen before the action is unblocked and declared successful?
> Adonai wrote:
> That the action has 2 effects and potentially 2 targets should not make one of them a non-directed effect.
>
> It is my belief that LSJ was wrong on this, and that an over-ruling would be appropriate.
>
I think what happened here is that the rulings pre-date RTR 08-08-08. www.thelasombra.com/rules/RTR080808.htm
Prior to that set of rulings, the situation was that if an action had precisely one target Methuselah, it was a directed action. If it had zero or more than one, it was undirected. I imagine that LSJ would not want to declare it an undirected action, so it was declared a action with a weird side-effect.
Since RTR 08-08-08, I cannot find anyone asking about it. Nor can I find it in any private discussions that were had about it. (I was copied on a long, constructive argument discussion between LSJ and another player about what became the action change in RTR 08-08-08.) Most of the issues were about what happened if someone gained immunity, or if a target left the ready region/was burned.(e.g. burning Underbridge Stray)
I'm unsure if this issue has ever arisen post-RTR 08-08-08.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
> I'm confused. Why do you think that any of the effects of the action would happen before the action is unblocked and declared successful?
>
I don't.
That's exactly what I was trying to write.
If a Prey deflects the bleed, he denies the block.
When the bleed goes to another target, the Prey cannot try to block (unless it goes back to him).
Therefore, his minion is tapped.
I still think the Secure Haven question is pertinent.
I'm with Jeff here. It is up to Pascal to decide and either way is ok, as long as there's a reasoning behind the decision (and I know Pascal always does).
> Brum wrote:
> If a Prey deflects the bleed, he denies the block.
> When the bleed goes to another target, the Prey cannot try to block (unless it goes back to him).
>
According to the rules, new blocking opportunities should arise. In my eyes, having SM not being an action directed at the methusaleh who's about to get a minion tapped would clash slightly with the rules.
Of course, as Pascal said, we could just call the soon to be tapped minion an "eligible minion" instead of a "target". Slight problem would be that it would introduce a new term to the game with all that brings (needs of definitions, loads of questions etc).
From the rulebook :
>
> Directed Action: An action of one Methuselah's minion that targets one or more other Methuselahs (or the minions or cards they control).
>
From the general rulings :
>
> If the target of a directed action is reset, a new "choose blockers" opportunity results. [RTR 19970630]
>
You raised valid points.
Let's call the chosen minion a target, as he/she is a target.
As a result:
- inferior Spirit Marionnette can't be taken against someone with no minion.
- inferior Spirit Marionnette can't target a minion with a Secure Haven.
- if the inferior Spirit Marionnette bleed is deflected, the chosen minion is still a target of the action, and the action is still a D action against your prey (and, sometimes, someone else).
This reverses a couple of rulings that were issued (and confirmed) earlier.
> Pascal wrote:
> - if the inferior Spirit Marionnette bleed is deflected, the chosen minion is still a target of the action, and the action is still a D action against your prey (and, sometimes, someone else).
>
If the bleed is deflected does the prey (who is getting a minion tapped) get a new chance to block?
Adam Esbjörnsson,
Prince of Örebro
If the target of an action changes, everyone gets a new chance to declare block attempts (not only the new targets).
It's a question I asked Scott some time ago, having Anneke in mind, but it applies just as well here.