Card type idea: Master - Flaw

was just thinking about the whole Merits and Flaws thing in character creation - and thought that maybe they might make for some interesting card ideas. At first, I thought maybe they would just be good to place on ready vampires, but I sorta like the idea of playing them on uncontrolled vampires, so when you bring them out, they immediately have the flaw/merit in question, sorta like simulating fresh character creation. Forgive my very poor templating, I hope that the idea is clear, though. I could only think of flaws off the top of my head: Just as an example: Stereotype Unique Master. Flaw. Put this card on an uncontrolled minion. While this non-titled vampire is controlled, he or she gets -1 stealth and cannot attempt political actions. This card remains in play, even when the vampire is in the uncontrolled region. Bela in a Master card, basically. Here's another. Victim of the Masquerade Unique Master. Flaw. Put this card on an uncontrolled minion. While this vampire with capacity below 6 is controlled, flip a coin during his or her controller's untap phase. If the flip is tails, this minion cannot play cards or take actions that require a clan, vampire, or discipline until his or her controller's next untap phase. This card remains in play, even when the vampire is in the uncontrolled region. So basically, because you don't know what you're placing the card on, there's a good chance that these cards don't do anything at all. But the effect is hopefully powerful enough to make up for it. Any thoughts on this?

Vampires are unique and theirs flaws are directly printed on them. Also, it's too random, both too weak to be usually played, and game-breaking when it work correctly.

I agree with Ohlmann. The randomness, the utter-hit-or-complete-miss nature of the cards and the fact that the Vamps already come with (balanced) inherent flaws make this idea unnecessary. Drain

Yeah, the randomness was the part I felt least sure about. What about getting rid of that, and just putting them directly on a vampire, straight up, with a pool cost attached?

I'm not sure why you want to put 'hosers' on vampires. Isn't there enough other ways for vampires to interact without attempting to nerf a vampire immediately? Why not just Sense-Dep, Pentex, Mind of a Child or any number of other things you could do to make someone cry about their recently wasted 9 pool on a vampire that didn't get to do anything... Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

Please no more coin flipping in a card game. Although, I'd kill for a Chaos Orb.

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Why not just Sense-Dep, Pentex, Mind of a Child or any number of other things you could do to make someone cry about their recently wasted 9 pool on a vampire that didn't get to do anything... > I'd like getting a flaw more than being pentexed or sens.deped to be honest. Luna, your cards remember me on New in Town Unique master. Put this card on any vampire with a capacity below 8 who was moved to the ready region in any Methuselah`s influence phase since your last turn. This vampire gets -1 stealth. This vampire can burn this card as a action. A card I never thought of when building decks. That kind of cards are probably just too cornercase to add them. Or would be too strong if they were not removable. I don't know. It is a nice idea reminding on the roleplaying game. It seems too difficult to implement it into the game. Baron of Frankfurt

Largely, cards like this get overlooked because they're master cards. The problem of being a master card is that - in most games - only a few are played, especially non-trifle master cards. So you're in the situation where I'm perhaps playing 8, 10, 12 non-trifle master cards in a game. Every time I play one, I have to think whether it's better than the "big guns" I could be playing. For example, would I rather have drawn into Flaw: Wallpaper Allergy, or: - Villein - Blood Doll - Pentex(tm) Subversion - Ashur's Tablet - Giant's Blood - Dreams of the Sphinx - Direct Intervention - Sudden Reversal / Wash - Lilith's Blessing These are the things you're competing against in quite a lot of decks. And obviously, specific decks may have their own needs - Smiling Jack or an intercept locations for a wall, Aching Beauty or Grand Ball for a Toreador deck, or whatever. So, when I play it, I want it to matter as much to me as Giant's Blood does, or Dreams of the Sphinx does. So it wants to be pretty good. Then if it's only going to be good some of the time, it needs to make up for that - perhaps it's easy to cycle, perhaps it's more powerful than normal when it does work. That sort of mechanism means the card is potentially going to have to be better than Pentex(tm) Subversion when it is played - and that's a very potent card indeed. However, having debilitating effects isn't all bad. Options you might consider exploring include: Trifles - potentially a bit weaker, but a little easier to play Alternative options for the card, so the 'main' use of the card doesn't have to be so strong to warrant inclusion in a deck. For example, if every Flaw: X card said "Alternatively, play this card (without putting it in play), and burn an Archetype card controlled by any Methuselah." The alternative use could (perhaps!) mainstream it a little. Perhaps you could use the same sort of disbenefits, but impose them in a different way. Perhaps they're revealed as blackmail material by another vampire, or perhaps they're easily played reactions. Maybe the -1 stealth to actions isn't the result of overconfidence, but a punishment laid down by a titled vampire for a Masquerade breach. Include a built-in cancellation mechanic, such as is found on Golconda. (It doesn't have to be the same mechanic, obviously!) A choice of "Accept this flaw, or take some other punishment" is a potentially interesting choice that might stimulate deck-building creativity. Additionally, restricting things to uncontrolled minions often means that you need to draw them early, or not at all. (At that point, alternative uses are good.) I mean, you can still play them in the mid-to-late game, but a lot of decks aren't bringing new vampires out then anyway.

Master. Flaw. Put this card on a vampire you control. [This vampire gets small negative ability.] Search your library for a Master Archetype card and place it on this vampire. Shuffle library afterward. Not so bad perhaps. You could pick flaws which have minor impacts on your deck design, but Archetypes which are more positive. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

It's certainly a decent idea, but since vampires can only have one archtype and there is already almost no reason whatsoever to play any archtype other than Perfectionist, you might as well add in extra perfectionists and have them without the [small negative ability] attached.

Rebel is nice archetype, in some decks Dabbler or Monster or Cavalier or Capitalists are good too. There is more choices than just Perfectionist. Nothing can save traditionalist or bravo, but many others are playable and even strong in some decks. The card Jeff proposed actually is playable, since you can play multiple of those and few archetype cards, and fetch archetypes from your deck (so you don't draw them later thus less 'dead draws' and higher chance to have those archetypes in play when playing 70-90 library cards total). Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Rebel is nice archetype > Rebel being trifle still doesn't make it worth slotting in a deck. It has a huge opportunity cost and will not do anything for you in 2 out of 3 games. It's in all reality better substituted with a Life in the City. > Dabbler > I don't think this is a good card, actually. If it was two disciplines, then yes, but three... really? Care to come up with a sample deck where it's better than just more Freak Drives or Perfectionists? > Monster or Cavalier > Ye sure, those are useful card in some decks and one of the reason I said "almost no reason..." > Capitalists > Limited to Sabbat only and while it can have its place in G2 !malk bleed decks, it's almost always better as a Perfectionist because they trigger from pretty much the same thing anyway (note that you need to bleed your *prey* for capitalist to trigger). > There is more choices than just Perfectionist. > Printed, yes. Playable? Not so much. > The card Jeff proposed actually is playable, since you can play multiple of those and few archetype cards, and fetch archetypes from your deck (so you don't draw them later thus less 'dead draws' and higher chance to have those archetypes in play when playing 70-90 library cards total). > Wait, what? How is this card less of a dead draw than an extra archtype is? Unless you are interested in spending an MPA to make one of your vampires worse...

I would say two thing : * it may not be the ideal place for a great discussion on wheter archetypes are playables or not * even if we suppose most are playable, what are the odds that you actually need more than one type of archetype anyway ? It's limited to one per vampires, et a plan that imply to have two vampires out with two different archetype because they do very different thing seem doomed to failure by overcomplexity.

> Izaak wrote: > > > Rebel is nice archetype > > > Rebel being trifle still doesn't make it worth slotting in a deck. It has a huge opportunity cost and will not do anything for you in 2 out of 3 games. It's in all reality better substituted with a Life in the City. > Are we talking about: Warning: Spoiler! Rebel Master: archetype. Trifle. Put this card on a vampire you control. Once per turn, when this vampire successfully blocks a titled vampire or a political action, he or she gains 1 blood from the blood bank (before the resulting combat, if any). A vampire can have only one archetype. That have decent chance to give my blocking deck 2 blood between my untap phases ? Seriously, IF you don't meet titled vampires or political decks in your area, i am very surprised. In the last 5 times i played Rebel, it ALWAYS gave me at least 1 blood, many times it gave me more than 2, which is huge for a card that is free, trifle master. > Izaak wrote: > > > Dabbler > > > I don't think this is a good card, actually. If it was two disciplines, then yes, but three... really? Care to come up with a sample deck where it's better than just more Freak Drives or Perfectionists? > Tzimisce toolbox using Mind of the Wild/changeling and Read the Winds/ combat. with Auras and Stick combat ? > Izaak wrote: > > > Monster or Cavalier > > > Ye sure, those are useful card in some decks and one of the reason I said "almost no reason..." > > > Capitalists > > > Limited to Sabbat only and while it can have its place in G2 !malk bleed decks, it's almost always better as a Perfectionist because they trigger from pretty much the same thing anyway (note that you need to bleed your *prey* for capitalist to trigger). [.quote] > > Note that anyone can just throw in wake to prevent you from gaining blood from perfectionist, and it's the same when they play bouce. > > > Izaak wrote: > > > > > There is more choices than just Perfectionist. > > > > > > > > Printed, yes. Playable? Not so much. > > > > > The card Jeff proposed actually is playable, since you can play multiple of those and few archetype cards, and fetch archetypes from your deck (so you don't draw them later thus less 'dead draws' and higher chance to have those archetypes in play when playing 70-90 library cards total). > > > > > > > > Wait, what? > > > > How is this card less of a dead draw than an extra archtype is? Unless you are interested in spending an MPA to make one of your vampires worse... > > > You have 4 archetypes in 70 cards left in the library including 13 masters. You have one on hand and play it on your first vampire, you have 69 cards in your library (lets say that replacement was non-master) and still 13 masters. > > In Jeff's card case, you have 2/2 split in 70 cards, if you have archetype, it's the same. IF you have the card, after playing it you have 68 cards left and 12 masters, so chances to draw master card are smaller afterward. IF the effect come before drawing card to replace, you have even lower chance to draw a master card. Get it? > > (it's even better if the flaw-granting card is trifle, so you have more flexibility in playing master cards) > Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Izaak wrote: > Dabbler > > I don't think this is a good card, actually. If it was two disciplines, then yes, but three... really? Care to come up with a sample deck where it's better than just more Freak Drives or Perfectionists? > Dabbler works best in decks which make use of multi-discipline cards. I use Dabbler to good effect in my Truth of Blood (Aus/Qui) bleed deck with Cel/Obf support. I also use it in my laibon Ani/Pre Pot/Ser bleed deck. Deep Song/Legal Manipulations Carrion Crows/Typhonic Beast/Grapple usually gets you to 3 disciplines easily. > Wait, what? > > How is this card less of a dead draw than an extra archtype is? Unless you are interested in spending an MPA to make one of your vampires worse... > It really would depend on the types of Flaws that could be introduced. It might be the case that you want to have a Dabbler, Monster and Perfectionist in your deck. Introducing a Flaw, with a search ability after, can help you get the right Archetype for the situation. Perhaps a vampire with a Flaw could have *two* Archetypes associated with them. That might be very good indeed. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Jeff wrote: > It really would depend on the types of Flaws that could be introduced. It might be the case that you want to have a Dabbler, Monster and Perfectionist in your deck. Introducing a Flaw, with a search ability after, can help you get the right Archetype for the situation. > > Perhaps a vampire with a Flaw could have *two* Archetypes associated with them. That might be very good indeed. > I could see this being of some interest. If a given flaw made you search your deck and directly put into play a given archtype, with each flaw interacting in a synergistic fashion with the named archtype. Even so, the flaws would have to be pretty minor but could be a way to make some archtypes yet see the light of day. Drain

> Lech wrote: > Nothing can save traditionalist or bravo, but many others are playable and even strong in some decks. > Mike Ooi qualified for the NAC some years back with a deck with a Traditionalist module. (It was, as I understand it, created almost solely to try to find a use for the card. I don't have a deck list.) Play a bunch of vampires with votes. Have a weenie on hand (created, possibly?). Include a location with a burn vote. Have your weenie call the vote, fail it by voting against, and zing, blood! It's obviously not the strongest blood gain you'll ever see, but I've seen worse.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > Lech wrote: > > Nothing can save traditionalist or bravo, but many others are playable and even strong in some decks. > > > Mike Ooi qualified for the NAC some years back with a deck with a Traditionalist module. (It was, as I understand it, created almost solely to try to find a use for the card. I don't have a deck list.) > > Play a bunch of vampires with votes. Have a weenie on hand (created, possibly?). Include a location with a burn vote. Have your weenie call the vote, fail it by voting against, and zing, blood! It's obviously not the strongest blood gain you'll ever see, but I've seen worse. > Works with Anarch Revolt + Banishment.

It'd be neat to see the Flaw allow a second Archetype to be put on a minion. "Sure, you get an extra benefit, but it'll cost you this minor disadvantage." Master: Trifle Flaw Put this on a ready minion you control. Search your library or hand for a Master: Archetype and put it on this minion. This minion can have an additional Archetype, but never two of the same. This minion has [some minor bad effect].

Do you often feel the need of playing multiples archetype on a vampire ? If no, maybe the whole concept is just useless.

> Do you often feel the need of playing multiples archetype on a vampire ? If no, maybe the whole concept is just useless. > I'm pretty sure it's always be Perfectionist + Something else.

Thanks for the input on these ideas, everyone. The more that I think about it, flaws are used during character to creation to create more interesting characters, but also to pick up more points during character creation... I like the idea of working with the archetype cards, but when I think of flaws, I think of merits and/or more points to work with during character creation in order to pick up things like disciplines....which gets me thinking of cards like Legendary Vampire...as it sort of works during 'character creation' So what about something like this, where the merit and flaw actually interact with each other in the same card text? I also like using coinflips... Victim of the Masquerade Unique Master: Trifle. Flaw. Put this card on an vampire in your uncontrolled region. When this vampire moves to the ready region, choose up to two disciplines he or she has at the basic level. While controlled, this vampire gains an additional level of those disciplines. While this vampire is ready, flip a coin during his or her controller's untap phase. If the flip is tails, this minion cannot play cards or take actions that require a clan, vampire, or discipline until his or her controller's next untap phase. This card remains in play, even when the vampire is in the uncontrolled region.

> LunaSlave wrote: > Thanks for the input on these ideas, everyone. The more that I think about it, flaws are used during character to creation to create more interesting characters, but also to pick up more points during character creation... > That's exactly the problem with the card hereafter : you try to take one of the worst aspect of the RPG (min maxing) to apply it to a card game. It make no sense at all : defectives peoples like your camarilla victim are more likely to be weaker than stronger than your average vampire. Also, don't forget that master is supposed to be personnal intervention of an elder and / or antediluvian. I can see Mithras trying to teach domination, or even finding a teacher for celerity, to one of its pawn ; I frankly don't see why anyone sane would try to transform a vampire into an asocial freak so it have more time to learn disciplines, because it's self defeating. You don't create characters in VtES. They already exist with theirs defaults and quality, and you enlist them. So, in my opinion, quit trying to shoehorn too much a bad aspect of the rpg in the card game. Trying to make archetype more playable is laudable ; trying to put an artificial aspect of the rpg in the card game is bad.

> LunaSlave wrote: > > Victim of the Masquerade > Unique Master: Trifle. Flaw. > That could be the right way. But for me I never would add the card because I hate to rely on luck to get things done. I mean with a chance of 50 % my vampire is doing nothing of interest in my turn. I think that is too bad. That said I like the idea with the minor weaknesses for fetching an archetype. The question remains what minor weakness would you take for the benefit of fetching an archetype as the latter are not that strong anyway. Baron of Frankfurt

Possible flaws: Sterility: This vampire is sterile. Adolescent: This vampire has -1 capacity. Permanent Fangs: Mortals get +1 intercept against you. Enemy: Choose another ready vampire. Vampires of the chosen clan get +1 strength against you in combat. Red Listed: This vampire is red list. [Flawname] Master. Trifle. Flaw. Put this card on a ready vampire you control. You may search your library for a Master:Archetype or Master:Discipline card and place it on this vampire. Shuffle library after. [This vampire has flaw negative ability.] A vampire may only have one of the same type of flaw. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Jeff wrote: > Possible flaws: > Sterility: This vampire is sterile. > Adolescent: This vampire has -1 capacity. > Permanent Fangs: Mortals get +1 intercept against you. > Enemy: Choose another ready vampire. Vampires of the chosen clan get +1 strength against you in combat. > Red Listed: This vampire is red list. > > [Flawname] > Master. Trifle. Flaw. > Put this card on a ready vampire you control. You may search your library for a Master:Archetype or Master:Discipline card and place it on this vampire. Shuffle library after. [This vampire has flaw negative ability.] A vampire may only have one of the same type of flaw. > Jeff, this seems like the most elegant version yet, by far. I like the flexibility it allows. Also, Ohlmann, your criticisms are valid, but I guess the idea was to try to take a relatively unexplored area of the RPG and see what could be done to make it work in the CCG. I won't disagree with you that it's perhaps one of the less explored areas FOR A REASON.

> Jeff wrote: > [Flawname] > Master. Trifle. Flaw. > Put this card on a ready vampire you control. You may search your library for a Master:Archetype or Master:Discipline card and place it on this vampire. Shuffle library after. [This vampire has flaw negative ability.] A vampire may only have one of the same type of flaw. > Placing discipline cards in non-standard ways allows you to avoid their restrictions. In particular, this would let you play Abombwe on anyone. I'm not sure that's a massive problem, but I'm not sure it's intentional either.

For not to avoid restrictions, just place "the vampire must meet the requirements" text.

Good point by james and good possible solution by jAvel. Since this flaw is a trifle, the Archetype or Discipline could probably just go to your hand with the assumption being that you'll put it on the same vampire that just became afflicted with the flaw. Problem then is that you could put flaws on Embraces and Archetypes/Disciplines on good vampires. Hm. I guess a bit of extra card text never hurt anyone. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Jeff wrote: > Since this flaw is a trifle, the Archetype or Discipline could probably just go to your hand with the assumption being that you'll put it on the same vampire that just became afflicted with the flaw. > I am still unconviced of the playability of the concept. Neither archetypes nor discipline are played all that often, and while I am sure there is deck that use more than one type of thoses cards, I am not sure it's worth cluttering the deck and trifle action with way to fetch them one by one. What strategy would benefit from flaw in your opinion ? Do you support the idea because it look fun, because it support a specific strategy, because it's what lack archetypes or disciplines ?

I just think it's an interesting concept. Merits and Flaws were always a cool way to customize vampires. Deckbuilding is all about finding the best way to make a particular strategy work; it's not always about power gaming. It really all comes down to implementation. For example, the original Archetypes being restricted to Sabbat only really hurt that concept from the start. I do agree with your concerns that the bonus to be received from having a Flaw would have to be significant enough to merit actually including in a deck, but a bit of hypothetical tinkering with a new mechanic never hurt. Even if something like this never sees the light of day, it is still a good mental exercise. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

why not make it a seperate custom deck in the middle of the table? every vampire that get influenced out draws the top merit/flaw card. I don't think it'll work very well in the normal VTES game, as I still don't think Archetypes were a good idea, but as part of a silly variant game with more RPG elements, it might work as a random element every vampire starts with.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > Placing discipline cards in non-standard ways allows you to avoid their restrictions. In particular, this would let you play Abombwe on anyone. > That's right. OTOH you have to take a disadvantage for that Abombwe too. So that probably can be balanced out. Baron of Frankfurt

And it's abonwe we're talking of, not temporis or spiritus.

> Joscha wrote: > That's right. OTOH you have to take a disadvantage for that Abombwe too. So that probably can be balanced out. > With the sorts of flaws that are being bandied around, the flaws aren't really flaws. Woo, I'm Sterile - but that's okay, because I don't have a single vampire-creating card in this deck. I don't have any particular objection to this, or Abombwe being playable in this manner. (It was mostly pointing out that I wasn't sure it was intentional.) However, if I stack my deck with a bunch of cards that have no negative impact on me and which let me get out a discipline card more easily and cheaply, should we just bite the bullet and make a card that lets you get discipline cards out more easily?

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > should we just bite the bullet and make a card that lets you get discipline cards out more easily? > yes, i think so. it could also help bridge the gap *a little* between anson, nana, cybele and almost everyone else. a flaw targetting extra master phase action-allowing vampires a.o could also be a good idea an event card allowing for discipline cards to be played as trifles on 2+caps would be very welcome (tupdogs and converts are crazy enough as it is).

> Haze wrote: > why not make it a seperate custom deck in the middle of the table? every vampire that get influenced out draws the top merit/flaw card. > Could make for an interesting storyline mechanic. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

The sterile Flaw can be fixed by adding "this sterile vampire cannot rescue other vampires from torpor". That would make it a real flaw. I believe that the sift for Archetype or Discipline cards should include your ash heap, which would encourage deck flow a little more, and make the flaw cards more accessible to decks.