Re: Secure Haven & Banishment

I'm sure this was covered somewhere sometime, my Google-Fu is not what it used to be. Can a vampire with Secure Haven be chosen for a Banishment? Secure Haven Type: Master Cost: 1 pool Master: unique location. Haven. Put this card on a minion you control. This minion cannot be the target of other Methuselahs' actions. Any Methuselah burns an additional pool when playing master cards on (or that target) this minion. Burn this card if this minion enters torpor. A minion may have only one haven. Banishment Type: Political Action Choose a younger ready vampire. Successful referendum means that the chosen vampire is moved to the uncontrolled region (breaking any temporary control effects). The vampire is uncontrolled. Any cards and counters on that vampire stay with him or her (but they are out of play as long as the vampire remains uncontrolled). Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

The political action is unirected. The terms of the referendum may target a vampire but that isn't an action. See Black Throne Yoruba Shrine for precedent on this too.

From rulebook section 11 special terms: "Directed Action: An action of one Methuselah's minion that targets one or more other Methuselahs (or the minions or cards they control). Undirected Action: An action that is not directed." I was going to say something similar to Pagan. If a political action is undirected than it is not an action targeting the minion.

A similar-enough ruling, if you need one: groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/296683f58a10fc56 Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Can a vampire with Secure Haven be chosen for a Banishment? > Yes, as there is nothing preventing that. A vampire chosen in the terms of a political action (which is undirected) isn't the target of that action, and choosing a vampire in Banishment terms won't make the political action directed.

Excuse me, if the question was answered already, but it seems, Secure Haven was reworded (just played on lackey)? So can you NOW target a vampire in a Secure Haven with a Banishment? Name: Secure Haven Cardtype: Master Cost: 1 pool Unique location. Haven. Put this card on a minion you control. >This minion cannot be the target of other Methuselahs' actions<. Master cards targeting this minion cost 1 additional pool. Burn this card after this minion goes to torpor. A minion can have only one haven. Baron of Frankfurt

> Joscha wrote: > So can you NOW target a vampire in a Secure Haven with a Banishment? > This is and has always been the case. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Nothing has changed. Political actions do not target any minion; they are undirected. Compare Secure Haven to Yoruba Shrine.

Thank you. I wonder about the reason to delete the D-action symbol then however. Baron of Frankfurt

> Joscha wrote: > Thank you. > I wonder about the reason to delete the D-action symbol then however. > By definition: > If the action targets one or more other Methuselahs or things controlled by other Methuselahs, then the action is called directed, and only the Methuselahs who are targeted may use their ready unlocked minions to attempt to block the action. If more than one Methuselah has been targeted by the action, blocking attempts are made in a clockwise order. > > If the action is not directed at another Methuselah or at something controlled by another Methuselah, then the action is called undirected and can be blocked by the acting Methuselah’s prey or predator, with the prey getting the first opportunity to block. > > ... > > As a reminder, when a card describes an action that is typically directed at another Methuselah, the card’s text will usually include a symbol as a reminder that the action is typically directed. > Since actions performed by other Methuselahs' minions are directed at the minion with the Secure Haven, the symbol is inappropriate (since it's not "typically directed" -- it IS directed). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> kschaefer wrote: > Nothing has changed. Political actions do not target any minion; they are undirected. > I dont think this is quite correct. Semantics. Theres been rulings that if an action card CHOOSES a target, then it is directed even without any particular targeting. For example condemn the sins of the father chooses a clan, and it has been ruled a directed action against all owners of said clan members. However, with political actions it is not the action that chooses a target, its the referendum. In my opinion it is because of this distinction that all political actions are undirected. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

Only an action can be directed or undirected where a political action is always the latter as its effects is to call a referendum. That a referendum in turn needs a target to be chosen doesn’t make the action itself needing one which is where the distinction is made.