Name: Valdano, the Carrier
Clan: Nosferatu Antitribu
Group: 5
Capacity: 6
Discipline: ani for obf POT
Sabbat. When Valdano enters play from the uncontrolled region he gains a disease counter. He is immune to Vampiric Disease. Sterile.
Game development:
- Extension of the Sabbat crypt options.
- Putting a new spin on a known archtype.
Flavor:
- Nosferatu plague carriers. I liked Smallpox Griet but cannot fail to point that she had the doubtful honour of once being considered by the newsgroup posters to be one of the worst nine-caps ever to exist. Valdano is somewhat more of the same concept, only polished for more usablility.
Balance:
- This time I took a step that I'm fairly unsure of, design-wise: I made the minion interact with counters provided by a totally unrelated master card. I wonder if this is acceptable, if it should be avoided or if it is permissible but might require more descriptive text that points to the functioning of the counter.
- Initially slated to be a 7-cap, I reduced it after pondering how much mileage one can really expect to pull from the disease counters and how they might come to haunt back the minion's player.
- Giving Valdano fortitude makes for a whopping 7 vampires in the 4-5 grouping with For. !Nosferatu however can really use the extra help so I didn't really see it as anything groundbreaking or that needed to be avoided.
Competitiveness:
- Low. Multi-Rush and Blood Denial are not really game winners but I think he is a fairly interesting minion nonetheless.
Drain
He needs more text if he is going to function as a plague carrier.
"Minions opposing Valdano in combat gain a disease counter at the end of combat if range is close. Any minion with a disease counter, other than Valdano, burns a blood during their untap counter. If a vampire has no blood, burn the disease counter."
That would make him a genuine disease/plague carrier.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> He needs more text if he is going to function as a plague carrier.
>
> "Minions opposing Valdano in combat gain a disease counter at the end of combat if range is close. Any minion with a disease counter, other than Valdano, burns a blood during their untap counter. If a vampire has no blood, burn the disease counter."
>
> That would make him a genuine disease/plague carrier.
>
My thinking was to make his existing text-given disease counter work like a Vampiric Disease had been previously played on him, thus minimizing his textbox clutter, the unfortunate side effect of that being that the particular rules for its functioning would be found on another card.
But you're right, of course, it's far more linear to just allow him self-contained functioning.
Name: Valdano, the Carrier
Clan: Nosferatu Antitribu
Group: 5
Capacity: 6
Discipline: ani for obf POT
Sabbat. Vampires opposing Valdano in combat gain a disease counter if range is close. Any minion with a disease counter burns a blood when they untap. If a vampire has no blood, burn all disease counters on him or her. Valdano is immune to disease counters. Sterile.
There. I had to rework the text a little bit for streamlining. Now it's basically a non-retransmissible version of Vampiric Disease, also lacking the "minion may not hunt" text but that, on the other hand, is actually stackable. This should keep the minion viable and feels elegant since it still allows me enough text space to make him immune to VD and sterile, for flavour purposes. Quite happy with it.
Drain
> Drain wrote:
> Name: Valdano, the Carrier
> Clan: Nosferatu Antitribu
> Group: 5
> Capacity: 6
> Discipline: ani for obf POT
> Sabbat. Vampires opposing Valdano in combat gain a disease counter if range is close. Any minion with a disease counter burns a blood when they untap. If a vampire has no blood, burn all disease counters on him or her. Valdano is immune to disease counters. Sterile.
>
> There. I had to rework the text a little bit for streamlining. Now it's basically a non-retransmissible version of Vampiric Disease, also lacking the "minion may not hunt" text but that, on the other hand, is actually stackable. This should keep the minion viable and feels elegant since it still allows me enough text space to make him immune to VD and sterile, for flavour purposes. Quite happy with it.
>
> Drain
>
If it's not doing the same thing as a disease counter, you may want to call it with a different name.
Pascal,
I think the idea is that its a vampire that has a built-in Vamp Disease and the vampire itself is immune to Vamp Disease.
So yeah, they would be disease counters, just like normal Vamp Disease.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Put a disease counter on any vampire. Each time a vampire with a disease counter is in combat at close range with another vampire, the second vampire gets a counter as well. An afflicted vampire cannot gain blood by hunting. When an afflicted vampire untaps, he or she burns a blood or, if unable, burns the disease counter. A vampire can have only one disease counter.
>
> Drain wrote:
> ow it's basically a non-retransmissible version of Vampiric Disease, also lacking the "minion may not hunt" text but that, on the other hand, is actually stackable.
>
It's definitely not the same thing as the Vampiric Disease's Disease counter.
Suppose VD and Valdano get played in a game.
Valdano gives a disease counter to a dude (dude1), and another dude (dude2) gets a disease counter from VD's cardtext.
Now, when dude1 hits dude3, does dude3 get a disease counter? Why?
> Pascal wrote:
>
> > Put a disease counter on any vampire. Each time a vampire with a disease counter is in combat at close range with another vampire, the second vampire gets a counter as well. An afflicted vampire cannot gain blood by hunting. When an afflicted vampire untaps, he or she burns a blood or, if unable, burns the disease counter. A vampire can have only one disease counter.
> >
> > Drain wrote:
> > ow it's basically a non-retransmissible version of Vampiric Disease, also lacking the "minion may not hunt" text but that, on the other hand, is actually stackable.
> >
> It's definitely not the same thing as the Vampiric Disease's Disease counter.
>
> Suppose VD and Valdano get played in a game.
> Valdano gives a disease counter to a dude (dude1), and another dude (dude2) gets a disease counter from VD's cardtext.
> Now, when dude1 hits dude3, does dude3 get a disease counter? Why?
>
Yes, via Vampiric Disease cardtext.
1. Valdano is in play - he passes disease counters to other vampires and the counters affect those vampires who are infected by Valdano.
2. Someone plays Vampiric Disease - from that moment on, via that Master's text, sick vampires can spread the disease too.
Valdano is still immune, as per his card text.
> Brum wrote:
> Yes, via Vampiric Disease cardtext.
> 1. Valdano is in play - he passes disease counters to other vampires and the counters affect those vampires who are infected by Valdano.
> 2. Someone plays Vampiric Disease - from that moment on, via that Master's text, sick vampires can spread the disease too.
> Valdano is still immune, as per his card text.
>
It would certainly be interesting if it worked that way but Pascal's post makes it quite clear that things are not supposed to work like that.
Name: Valdano, the Carrier
Clan: Nosferatu Antitribu
Group: 5
Capacity: 6
Discipline: ani for obf POT
Sabbat. Vampires opposing Valdano in combat gain an infection counter if range is close. Any minion with an infection counter burns a blood when they untap. If a vampire has no blood, burn all infection counters on him or her. Valdano is immune to disease counters. Sterile.
There, reworked the text yet again (thanks, Glaswanderer) and it appears quite final. His immunity to disease counters (from VD) is still there and quite deliberate, not a typo at all.
Drain
Oh actually, we'd have to make it so VD is put into play to make this work. I'd forgotten that VD counters remember the text of VD rather than having a card in play remind the counters of their effects.
On that note, is there any chance VD should have a "put in play" effect that will leave it in play uncontrolled by any Methuselah and which will go when there are no disease counters?
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> On that note, is there any chance VD should have a "put in play" effect that will leave it in play uncontrolled by any Methuselah and which will go when there are no disease counters?
>
Should we also put Giant's Blood in play, but controlled by noone, as a remainder that noone else can play it?
I think players can remember how Disease counters work, especially if the card has been played in the game. If it hasn't, then it doesn't really matter, does it?
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> Oh actually, we'd have to make it so VD is put into play to make this work. I'd forgotten that VD counters remember the text of VD rather than having a card in play remind the counters of their effects.
>
Then again, if (that's a big if) a new expansion is released with multiples card that expand the concept of the Vampiric disease card, the effect of disease counter could then be moved to the rulebook to avoid clogging thoses cards.
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> On that note, is there any chance VD should have a "put in play" effect that will leave it in play uncontrolled by any Methuselah and which will go when there are no disease counters?
>
VD isn't the only card in this category (counters with lingering effects but the card isn't necessarily in play).
In particular, some vampires issue counters which do not lose their ability when the vampire leaves play. Tegyrius (Camarilla maker) and Theron (Deranger) both have counters whose effects persist if the vampire leaves play.
So while you could change VD to work this way (and similarly, Sabbat Threat), the wider 'problem' persists. So it wouldn't be at all clear that making the change would be worthwhile.
Similarly, Camarilla Exemplary does not go in play. (Nor does Sabbat Priest.) Tajdid lifts the Blood Curse, but does not go in play - it might actually be problematic if it did go in play, since you might infer that the Blood Curse was reinstituted if the controller was ousted. (Potentially important if a vampire is stolen, or two players play Assamites.) Masai Blood Milk actually removes the card that could serve as the reminder of its effect, in order to get that effect.
If this sort of thing is a problem, there's quite a lot of errata to issue.
Neither Revelation of Wrath nor Weigh the Heart say anything about the Corruption counters they put on vampires other than their names. Why would putting Disease counters on vampires be any different?
More generally, should counters carry meaning with them? I guess it seems so in cases listed above like Tegyrius' Allegiance counters (in case Tegyrius leaves play). But, that wouldn't seem to preclude counters from taking on a new or additional meaning if a newly played card did something about it.
Suppose this were a card:
Name: Camarilla Sell-out
Type:
Requires: Assamite
If this card is successful, put this card into play. Camarilla Assamites gain 1 additional vote. Assamites with Allegiance counters gain 1 additional vote.
I suppose you would interpret that as meaning that Allegiance counters granted by Tegyrius do nothing in this case? There seems to be some inconsistency here.
When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
Corruption counters don't do anything until a card looks at them and says I will use you, counters don't carry any weight unless a card that played them says they do or a card played later interacts with them. For the purposed vamp to have the same affect as VD, he would have to have the same wording. In VD's case, the original counter has the affect when played, and the copies do the same as they are copies.
> Drain wrote:
> My thinking was to make his existing text-given disease counter work like a Vampiric Disease had been previously played on him, thus minimizing his textbox clutter, the unfortunate side effect of that being that the particular rules for its functioning would be found on another card.
>
Looking back at Drain's original intent, it's different than what I imagined. I thought he should just have the text ""Minions opposing Valdano in combat gain a disease counter at the end of combat if range is close." These Disease counters wouldn't have any effect (they'd be dormant/inert) until *activated* by someone playing Vampyric Disease. Then they'd take on a new role and start burning blood from vampires. Note that until VD were played, the Disease counters wouldn't be burned/lost either.
When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
> Jeff wrote:
>
> Looking back at Drain's original intent, it's different than what I imagined. I thought he should just have the text ""Minions opposing Valdano in combat gain a disease counter at the end of combat if range is close." These Disease counters wouldn't have any effect (they'd be dormant/inert) until *activated* by someone playing Vampyric Disease. Then they'd take on a new role and start burning blood from vampires. Note that until VD were played, the Disease counters wouldn't be burned/lost either.
>
I would like it to work this way, and with the way corruption counters work I would say that this would be the case, but it would be such a unique ability Im not sure if it would with this current wording. But I think the idea of a vamp like this should happen at some point.
I'm glad you guys find the design interesting as to merit so much discussion. I've read your replies and a few changes occured to me:
Name: Valdano, the Carrier
Clan: Nosferatu Antitribu
Group: 5
Capacity: 6
Discipline: ani obf FOR POT
Sabbat. When Valdano enters play from the uncontrolled region search your library, ash-heap or hand for a Vampiric Disease and play it on him as an out-of-turn trifle. He is immune to the effects of disease counters. Sterile.
There, how about this? It has never been done quite like this before, minions allowing you to search and play master cards in such a way but it feels right both for flavor and rules-wise. I did bump his fortitude to superior to try and compensate the fact that you'll lose your O-O-T master and fact that the VD might get suddened.
This would solve all problems with the named counters rules-wise, it seems to me.
Drain