Direct Intervention poll and discussion

Direct Intervention disallows you to play the game you sat down to play. The very act of playing the game is stopped by DI. No stealth, no cards, nothing helps. That's why it's horrible and never should've been made. To contrast: the master-stoppers only stop the Methuselah, not an acting minion. The same can be said for Protect Thine Own, Return to Innocence, the seat-switchers, and FOR SURE with stupid Magic-the-Gathering-logic Succubus Club. Banning those five cards did zero harm while implementing a great deal of good. I'm positive that banning DI would do the same. In addition, there is an updated, balanced version of the card which no one believes to be unfair or unbalanced. As there is no cost that DI could be set at that would make it fair to the player or the played-upon, the card must go away, permanently. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

You think that DI disallows to play one's game. I feel that Pentex Subversion is doing the same, if not even more so. Having a minion not being able to play cards (well, in most cases) is a bad thing. It ruins games much more than DI. pckvtes.wordpress.com

The cost (one out of turn MPA, one pool, card slot) is moderate for what can be a swingy effect, that's true. That being said, I think it has an important place in the game as it is now. Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

Limiting it's recursion by making it one per meth would fix it imo. It's stupid blanked cancel a card, and vtes would be way better without it, but just limiting it would help, too. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

I agree with getting rid DI, as long as we ban DI2 along with it. I don't think either card is too strong because of the opportunity cost involved, but I do feel that it disrupts the very core of minion interaction. Meths get minions to do their stuff. Meths deal with other Meths (Sudden) and not some silly 13-th generation nobody trying to Entrance a War Ghoul. Added to that is the retarded situation where every time you play a DI-worthy card, there is the time-consuming, "any DI's?" - "Wait I'm considering" phase.

DI is the opposite of fun. (Though if it's banned we may want to take another look at Una Freak Show...)

I used to think DI was just undercosted, when I would only see it used by wall decks that would turtle all day. hold onto the card the whole game to cancel their predator's one prayer card to get past the wall. that should definitely cost more than 1 pool for that power. and then I started seeing the "competitive tournament" use for DI -- playing it cross-table to prevent an oust because you think you might be able to score 3 VPs on your next turn. no eagles sight needed! cheaper than Life Boon! yeah the game can do without that kind of crap entirely. and it's probably so common because of such a cheap cost, 1 pool more than Sudden Reversal to counter 75% of the cards printed in the entire game. I rarely see Dark Influences, Power of All, or Rewind Time, so maybe those cards have a more fair cost.

I'd prefer to see DI and cards like it to go but for another reason. To play it properly you need to wait before replacing any minion card you play to wait for DI. Since this is just not possible in a 2 hour game everyone plays assuming there will be no DI and causes the card to be played improperly, even if it is generally a minor problem.

Removing DI would have the unfortunate effect that any block decks without bounce would be completely dead. If you can't survive Daring the Dawn as a block deck, the deck can never be competitive. Furthermore, it's possible to create many "prefect combos" if DI wasn't in the game. DI serves as an extremely costly counter to any minion card. DI on immortal grapple to be able to play majesty is hardly a cheap way to survive combat, but at least it's a possible answer. Recursion on DI might be extremely annoying to play against, but try playing it once and you'll see how costly it actually is to use. Choosing DI as the 13th card for Ashurs, using Anthelios, using Sargon Fragments, these are all once per turn and then the DI itself costs a MPA, the most scarce resource in the game. I don't think VTES would be the same if you can know with 100% certainty how your turn will go. Removing DI would remove a lot of the crisis management skills required. Adam Esbjörnsson, Prince of Örebro

There is a place for DI-like cards in the game because there are many minion cards that your minions cannot interact with. When I say that, I mean that there are some cards that you cannot answer adequately by playing another card, no matter how obscure. As mentioned, there is no minion card that will counter Daring the Dawn (well except allies, I guess); there is no card besides Death Seeker that will counter Concealed Weapon/Disguised Weapon. And DI doesn't even affect reaction cards like Obedience, unless you play it while your Malkavian is acting during someone else's turn. Rather than have one card that cancels any minion card, there should be cards that cancel different types of minion cards because DI is too generally useful.

CON with all my heart. > KevinM wrote: > Direct Intervention disallows you to play the game you sat down to play. The very act of playing the game is stopped by DI. No stealth, no cards, nothing helps. That's why it's horrible and never should've been made. > ? I don't understand at all what you're talking about. How does DI prevent you from playing? First Tradition is a card that prevents you from playing, not DI. The only case where DI ends the turn is when played on a Freak Drive by some kind of Una-FreakShow or Turbo-whoever deck. Otherwise, it's simply a control or "last chance" card. Compared with other card canceller, it's more versatile but costs pool and a MPA. Approximation of Loyalty, Touch of Clarity and Vox Domini are playable and provide some advantages over DI. Furthermore, like all card that cancels other cards, it is a "passive"/"defensive" card (except in some Enkil Cog/Madness Network decks where it can be played more proactively). Usually, such cards are less prone to be abusive. (I know this may be argued.) Anyway, Played on an action => the minion can take the same action again. Played on a strike => the minion have a new strike DI is better when played on some action modifier or reaction (usually during someone else's turn, which is quite rare and tricky) because the same card can't be played again. But even when played on a push bleed (Conditioning), you're not safe because another push bleed can be played, and paying a pool makes it less effective anyway. Played on stealth? This is a last chance option, because another stealth card will probably be enough. One of the most frequent scenarios is whether to play DI on the Govern (does your predator have another?) or the bleed modifier (does your predator have a Foreshadowing Destruction?). In both case, you're more dead than alive usually. Another case is playing DI on that Concealed Weapon (but usually players pack 12 of them, so there's a chance he has another one), or on that important No Secret From the Magaji/Eternal Vigilance/Daring the Dawn/whatever key card. Once again, nothing absolutely terrible, at least no more than being blocked. The most frustrating use is when someone plays it on your last bleed action and cancels your push bleed that would have ousted your prey. It's really corner-case, could be done using Life Boon, and is simply table control (it could have been an Eagle Sight after all, or just Anneke blocking your oust attempt, it already happened). If you have a look to the TWD, in 2011 there are 78 decks out of 265 that play a DI. (30%) 52 play 1 DI 23 play 2 DI 3 play 3 DI. (and 187 don't play any DI at all) So most decks don't play DI (Most of my decks don't have any DI in them, and I have many sitting in my collection), and when they do play DI, most of them include only 1 which can be seen as a "last chance"/"save me" card you can't reasonably count on (1 in the deck). So, once again, how does DI prevent you from playing? I'd love to see an example where the card would be so broken... Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Removing DI would have the unfortunate effect that any block decks without bounce would be completely dead. If you can't survive Daring the Dawn as a block deck, the deck can never be competitive. > Why not? You If your hypothetical block deck without bounce can't eat a bleed for 3, then it's probably time to back to the drawing board. In all other cases, just play an AI instead of DI. Direct Intervention is just a way too easy and foolproof way to deal with your opponent's prayer cards. Playing allies? Can't be arsed to defend your allies against Entrancement and the like? Pack DI's! Playing a No Secrets Wall and scared of block fails? Pack DI's! Playing a breed swarm and afraid of Anarchist Uprising? Pack DI's!

> Aaron wrote: > Rather than have one card that cancels any minion card, there should be cards that cancel different types of minion cards because DI is too generally useful. > I tend to agree, generic counterspell card are not too welcome in my book, where specific solution would be more in line of other cards. It's also one of the numerous card that don't promote going forward. On the other hand, I can't say that DI is too much of a problem, except maybe with Anthelios, but I don't believe that DI is the problematic one, more the versatility of solution that Anthelios can give you.

Nah it's DI alone that slows down games a *lot*. Right now, what you cannot do is try to do a very well calculated and planned lunge, because someone crosstable might (and usually will) DI your ousting Conditioning or ELder Impersonation. What you do instead is grind down pool totals slowly, which leaves ample opportunity for people to recover lost pool with Villeins and whatnot. This true whether or not Anthelios is on the table. That said, I did play a fair few high-profile tournaments last year and haven't seen anyone recycle DI's with Anthelios. What people recycle is Ashurs, Jakes and the occasional Sudden.

> Izaak wrote: > Right now, what you cannot do is try to do a very well calculated and planned lunge, because someone crosstable might (and usually will) DI your ousting Conditioning or ELder Impersonation. > Using precious card slots, pool and MPAs, for what? Causing time-outs and denying themselves the GW? If people want to time out the table, everyone has that option no matter what card we ban. Banning a card because some players choose to play strategically moronic shouldn't be something the VEKN does. Adam Esbjörnsson, Prince of Örebro

> Using precious card slots, pool and MPAs, for what? Causing time-outs and denying themselves the GW? If people want to time out the table, everyone has that option no matter what card we ban. > I'm pretty sure that at least 3 people at the table don't want you to get a VP. a) Your prey doesn't want to die b) Your predator doesn't want you to gain 6 pool and a VP c) Your grandprey is likely to prefer his current, almost ousted predator over a new one that just gained 6 pool > Banning a card because some players choose to play strategically moronic shouldn't be something the VEKN does. > No, but if the existance of a single card disallows extremely clever or strategic play just because the key component to your big-play-combo can be (and usually gets) DI'd there is a problem.

while I'm all for changing or even banning Pentex (discussed in another thread), I'm not so anxious about DI. TBH, since the introduction of DI2 the game has changed. Simply put, if I'm playing a deck that "has a plan", meaning - it relies on a combo to be pulled off (like ensuring that nobody DI's your 5th spell of life, for example), DI2 solves my problem nicely. I happened to play DI2 on some random crap a few times just to put the card in play and ensure that my combo can be pulled off. it also makes regular DI's useless instantly. I simply love that card there are some decks where I'd use DI, but their number has gone down since DI2 was implemented. I'd pack it in any No Secrets deck, obviously (since block denial kills you), it also comes in handy with weenie / ally decks, but in overall it's not as big as it used to be back in the days. but I do agree that seeing someone playind DI crosstable "for the lulz" is quite retarded. then again - you can't change cards because some people use them in a stupid way.

> Izaak wrote: > > > Using precious card slots, pool and MPAs, for what? Causing time-outs and denying themselves the GW? If people want to time out the table, everyone has that option no matter what card we ban. > > > I'm pretty sure that at least 3 people at the table don't want you to get a VP. > > a) Your prey doesn't want to die > b) Your predator doesn't want you to gain 6 pool and a VP > c) Your grandprey is likely to prefer his current, almost ousted predator over a new one that just gained 6 pool > That your prey or predator would try to hinder you can hardly be considered a problem. If your grandprey uses resources to hinder you he/she is either playing poorly or he/she is already winning anyway. Unless of course, your prey is already basically ousted, in which case it can hardly be considered 'cross-table'. > > Banning a card because some players choose to play strategically moronic shouldn't be something the VEKN does. > > > No, but if the existance of a single card disallows extremely clever or strategic play just because the key component to your big-play-combo can be (and usually gets) DI'd there is a problem. > Being clever is considering DI and playing accordingly and not being hurt by it. A "big-play-combo" being stopped is hardly a bad thing. They're boring, unstrategic, unimaginative, one-shot tactics. Relying on combos is the same as avoiding strategy. Adam Esbjörnsson, Prince of Örebro

> Xaddam wrote: > They're boring, unstrategic, unimaginative, one-shot tactics. > Sounds like you're precisely defining Direct Intervention. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> Pagan wrote: > I'd prefer to see DI and cards like it to go but for another reason. > > To play it properly you need to wait before replacing any minion card you play to wait for DI. Since this is just not possible in a 2 hour game everyone plays assuming there will be no DI and causes the card to be played improperly, even if it is generally a minor problem. > That is a fair point, but isn't the most natural answer to change the timing rather than ban cards?

> Xaddam wrote: > Being clever is considering DI and playing accordingly and not being hurt by it. A "big-play-combo" being stopped is hardly a bad thing. They're boring, unstrategic, unimaginative, one-shot tactics. Relying on combos is the same as avoiding strategy. > I don't get it, you think that playing multiple copies of your cards for consistency is imaginative, strategic and not-boring ? I disagree. DI and DI2 are among the main reasons why people tend to not play prayer cards that can be sometimes crucial (why bother if it's gonna be canceled anyway?). Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.