A Methuselah taps House of Sorrow to untap Enkil Cog and plays Descent into Darkness as the vampire's action. In the Methuselahs next influence phase he/she returns the vampire to play, and uses the Enkil Cog before his/her next untap phase. Does the Enkil Cog untap during this untap phase?
Conversely, using a House of Sorrow and contesting it for a turn and then winning the contest, does it untap during its next untap phase?
More generally speaking: is the "untap as normal during your next untap phase" remembered by the card (Enkil Cog, in this case), House of Sorrow or is it tracked separately of the cards?
Name: Descent into Darkness
Cardtype: Action
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Obtenebration
+1 stealth action.
[obt] Turn the acting vampire and any cards on him or her face down, out of play (breaking any temporary control effects). Put this card on him or her (in play). During your influence phase, move 2 blood to this face down vampire from the blood bank, and you can choose to burn this card to return the vampire to play, tapped.
[OBT] As above, but the vampire is untapped when he or she returns to play.
Name: Enkil Cog
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Requires a vampire of capacity 10 or more. Unique.
Only usable when this vampire successfully bleeds your prey (play after resolution). Put this card on this vampire. During any Methuselah's minion phase, this vampire may tap this card to attempt an action. This vampire has +1 bleed.
Name: House of Sorrow
Cardtype: Master
Cost: 1 pool
Master: unique location.
Tap to untap any card you control that is not a minion. If you do so, neither that card nor this location untap as normal on your next untap phase.
Adam Esbjörnsson,
Prince of Örebro
I would say it wouldn't untap,as HOS text states when you untap a card regardless for whatever reasons you cant untap the card next untap phase.
As for it being contested then returned, it wouldnt still untap a card previously affected just as HOS destroyed wont untap the card as its effect has already occured. But lets wait for Pascal's verdict on this one.
In my opinion, "breaking any temporary control effects" is just a reminder of the fact, that cards which get out of play, lose their "memory" on ANY temporary effects.
Thus, "Enkil Cog" should come back untapped; and a contested "House of Sorrow" would return untapped.
My 5 Christmas cents, I might be terribly wrong ...
National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de
> Xaddam wrote:
> A Methuselah taps House of Sorrow to untap Enkil Cog and plays Descent into Darkness as the vampire's action. In the Methuselahs next influence phase he/she returns the vampire to play, and uses the Enkil Cog before his/her next untap phase. Does the Enkil Cog untap during this untap phase?
>
I suppose the untapping via House of Sorrow + tapping of Enkil Cog + Descent into Darkness happens before that player's turn (let's say it's tapped in turn n). Which means when the House of Sorrow doesn't untap, the Enkil Cog isn't there (turn n+1).
In your situation, Enkil Cog will not untap as normal (turn n+2), because the next untap phase it would untap in, after turn n, is turn n+2.
> Xaddam wrote:
> Conversely, using a House of Sorrow and contesting it for a turn and then winning the contest, does it untap during its next untap phase?
>
> More generally speaking: is the "untap as normal during your next untap phase" remembered by the card (Enkil Cog, in this case), House of Sorrow or is it tracked separately of the cards?
>
Well, first of all, if you win the contest, the contested card comes back untapped ( Rulebook 4.1 ).
The "does [magic] during your next untap phase" is remembered by the card.
So, for instance, if you tap the House of Sorrow to untap Enkil Cog, and someone plays House of Sorrow before your untap phase, Enkil Cog won't untap as normal.
See similar examples here:
- [LSJ 20080718] Khobar: Glory vs contest
- [LSJ 20031106] Stealing a vampire with Rutor's Hand
Similarly, if a Daughter of Cacophyony you control plays Concert Tour, gets contested, and you win the contest after several turns of contesting, Concert Tour will still burn to refill the Daughter of Cacophony.
> Xaddam wrote:
> A Methuselah taps House of Sorrow to untap Enkil Cog and plays Descent into Darkness as the vampire's action. In the Methuselahs next influence phase he/she returns the vampire to play, and uses the Enkil Cog before his/her next untap phase. Does the Enkil Cog untap during this untap phase?
>
First off, the set-up is slightly odd in that if you're going to play Descent into Darkness, don't untap the Enkil Cog beforehand. Re-entering play from Descent into Darkness brings the card back untapped.
[LSJ 20060908]
>
> LSJ wrote:
> Out of play cards that enter play do so untapped. (As per the first --
> the most recent -- answer above).
>
> You could, for example, get around Sensory Deprivation via contesting
> (assuming some other player was kind enough to contest your Sense
> Depped vampire and then yield), using the contest to untap the vampire.
>
And the original issue was about Corporal Reservoir on a vampire, which functions somewhat similarly to Enkil Cog by tapping to give you an effect.
Pretty much everything is remembered by a card that leaves play - be it via contestation, Banishment, or Descent into Darkness. (Except that the tapped state resets when it re-enters play.) Lost titles are still lost. A Toreador chosen to be the bitch for Toreador Grand Ball is still targeted by it (and still won't untap as normal). So there's no reason for this particular effect to be lost.
> Xaddam wrote:
> Conversely, using a House of Sorrow and contesting it for a turn and then winning the contest, does it untap during its next untap phase?
>
When you win the contest, the card comes back into play untapped. During that untap phase, it didn't untap as normal (it was also out of play).
Are you thinking that the card text should be read as something like "During the next untap phase in which this card would untap, it doesn't untap as normal"? It's not that, it's just "During your next untap phase". If this is the next one, it doesn't untap as normal (though it does untap from coming back from a contest) and that effect expires.
> Xaddam wrote:
> More generally speaking: is the "untap as normal during your next untap phase" remembered by the card (Enkil Cog, in this case), House of Sorrow or is it tracked separately of the cards?
>
I think you're looking for a subtlety of card text that isn't there. "Your" means you, the Methuselah. An untap phase several turns hence isn't your next untap phase.
The effect isn't lost (or forgotten) if the card goes out-of-play temporarily.
It might be interesting to know where the effect 'lived' if (for example) burning that could remove it. (e.g. I use my own House of Sorrow to untap Whatever, and then burn the House of Sorrow with Arson, and Whatever could untap as normal because HoS was the receptacle for that) But that isn't the way things work, since I could easily set up an effect on you and get ousted, but the effect would persist. (e.g. my Flash Grenade goes off and will, in the future, prevents one of your vampires untapping, I immediately get ousted, but you'll still be prevented from untapping at the appropriate time)
Is there a useful purpose for which the distinction would be meaningful? It may be easier to find precedent that way.
> Pascal wrote:
> The "does [magic] during your next untap phase" is remembered by the card.
> So, for instance, if you tap the House of Sorrow to untap Enkil Cog, and someone plays House of Sorrow before your untap phase, Enkil Cog won't untap as normal.
>
I think we might have a slight difference in how we use the word "remember". My understanding of remembered by Enkil Cog is that it won't untap during Enkil Cog's next untap. The ruling you've given is what I would call tracked separately of the cards. Not that it's too important, I understand the ruling.
The Khabar: Glory-ruling problematizes this, though. Consider this scenario: two Methuselahs are in a heads-up situation (for simplicity's sake). Turn 1 Methuselah A plays Khabar: Glory, turn 2 Methuselah B contest the Khabar: Glory, turn 3 A pays for contest (this is "your next untap phase", if tracked separately), turn 4 B yields the contest, turn 5 A gets Khabar: Glory back (this is "your next untap phase", if remember by Khabar: Glory). Does the Khabar: Glory burn turn 5? Or does it burn during turn 3, regardless of its contested state? Or does it in this case never burn?
Name: Khabar: Glory
Cardtype: Action
Clan: Assamite
+1 stealth action. Unique.
Not usable if any non-mandatory actions have been performed this turn. Put this card on this acting Assamite and untap him or her. This Assamite gets +1 bleed. If your prey is ousted while this card is in play, you gain an additional 4 pool. Burn this card during your next untap phase.
Adam Esbjörnsson,
Prince of Örebro
> Pascal wrote:
>
> > Xaddam wrote:
> > A Methuselah taps House of Sorrow to untap Enkil Cog and plays Descent into Darkness as the vampire's action. In the Methuselahs next influence phase he/she returns the vampire to play, and uses the Enkil Cog before his/her next untap phase. Does the Enkil Cog untap during this untap phase?
> >
> I suppose the untapping via House of Sorrow + tapping of Enkil Cog + Descent into Darkness happens before that player's turn (let's say it's tapped in turn n). Which means when the House of Sorrow doesn't untap, the Enkil Cog isn't there (turn n+1).
> In your situation, Enkil Cog will not untap as normal (turn n+2), because the next untap phase it would untap in, after turn n, is turn n+2.
>
Is this consistent with the House of Sorrow and the Coven ruling ?
I read that ruling to mean that the "don't untap effect" from HoS goes away from the Coven during my next untap phase, even if the Coven is controlled by another Methusaleh and the next untap phase I have the Coven it untaps as normal (as long as that untap phase isn't the next untap phase anyone controls the Coven during their untap phase). Hope you understand how I mean here, it gets a bit messy.
When re-reading the ruling, I get a bit uncertain though, since that situation isn't really addressed.
If my reading of the ruling is correct and the Coven doesn't remember to not untap during my next untap phase, I think the same should apply to Enkil Cog.
> henrik wrote:
>
> > Pascal wrote:
> >
> > > Xaddam wrote:
> > > A Methuselah taps House of Sorrow to untap Enkil Cog and plays Descent into Darkness as the vampire's action. In the Methuselahs next influence phase he/she returns the vampire to play, and uses the Enkil Cog before his/her next untap phase. Does the Enkil Cog untap during this untap phase?
> > >
> > I suppose the untapping via House of Sorrow + tapping of Enkil Cog + Descent into Darkness happens before that player's turn (let's say it's tapped in turn n). Which means when the House of Sorrow doesn't untap, the Enkil Cog isn't there (turn n+1).
> > In your situation, Enkil Cog will not untap as normal (turn n+2), because the next untap phase it would untap in, after turn n, is turn n+2.
> >
> Is this consistent with the House of Sorrow and the Coven ruling ?
> I read that ruling to mean that the "don't untap effect" from HoS goes away from the Coven during my next untap phase, even if the Coven is controlled by another Methusaleh and the next untap phase I have the Coven it untaps as normal (as long as that untap phase isn't the next untap phase anyone controls the Coven during their untap phase). Hope you understand how I mean here, it gets a bit messy.
> When re-reading the ruling, I get a bit uncertain though, since that situation isn't really addressed.
>
> If my reading of the ruling is correct and the Coven doesn't remember to not untap during my next untap phase, I think the same should apply to Enkil Cog.
>
Hm, good point. I'll work a bit on that one.