Aid from Bats vs. Immortal Grapple

Immortal Grapple Only usable at close range before strikes are chosen. Grapple. [pot] Strikes that are not hand strikes may not be used this round (by either combatant). A vampire may play only one Immortal Grapple each round. [POT] As above, with an optional press. If another round of combat occurs, that round is at close range; skip the determine range step for that round. Aid from Bats [ani] Strike: 1R damage, with an optional maneuver. [ANI] As above, with an optional press. One player uses Aid from bats at superior to manuever, second one manuevuers to close range and then plays Immortal Grapple at superior. Player who chose Aid from bats as a strike cannot strike, because of grapple. Can he use press from the Aid from bats? My opinion is that he cannot, because it it part of the strike, which was restricted by Immortal Grapple. Am I correct? Thank you. czechvtes.blogspot.com/

If you've played the card for a maneuver, you can use the press (assuming you get to the Press step, obviously), regardless of what happens to your strike. [LSJ 20070307] > LSJ wrote: > >> Ok. Suppose you use Bats at ANI but get caught under a Grapple anyway > >> after additional maneuvers. Do you get the press then? > > > I'd say you gain the press as soon as you play the card. So if you > > have maneuvered with it, you've gained your optional press. That you > > have to forego striking because you have committed to a restricted > > strike doesn't affect the press already gained. You still have played > > this card, and have gained the press already. No retroactive changing > > of that. > > Correct. > If the Aid from Bats is not canceled as it is played, then Beast gets an > optional press during the press step of that round. >

So, if I play Aid from bat to maneuver to close, then Immortal Grapple, the Aid from the bat give me a press and a maneuver without needing to actually use it as a strike ? (the difference is being unable to use it as a strike vs actively trying to be unable to use it)

> Ohlmann wrote: > So, if I play Aid from bat to maneuver to close, then Immortal Grapple, the Aid from the bat give me a press and a maneuver without needing to actually use it as a strike ? > Well, the Aid from Bats is already chosen as your strike. So if you then play IG after maneuvering to close with the Aid from Bats, you get no strike at all (as you are committed to using the Aid from Bats strike, but can't due to the IG you cleverly played). But then if you have an additional strike, you could punch someone (in the highly regarded ANI/POT/CEL deck...)

> bakija wrote: > > > Ohlmann wrote: > > So, if I play Aid from bat to maneuver to close, then Immortal Grapple, the Aid from the bat give me a press and a maneuver without needing to actually use it as a strike ? > > > Well, the Aid from Bats is already chosen as your strike. So if you then play IG after maneuvering to close with the Aid from Bats, you get no strike at all (as you are committed to using the Aid from Bats strike, but can't due to the IG you cleverly played). But then if you have an additional strike, you could punch someone (in the highly regarded ANI/POT/CEL deck...) > Poor choice of words. Strikes are chosen in the Strike step ( CRR VI.C ). When maneuvering with Aid from Bats, Slam, .44 Magnum, ..., you're committing yourself to choosing that strike in the VI.C step. Yes, this might sound like nit-picking. But it also means Aim cards (played "when choosing strike") are played when actually choosing your strike, not when you're committing yourself to choosing one (i.e. maneuvering with a strike card/effect). [LSJ 20080409] The answer given above by James is correct. The press provided by Aid from Bats isn't provided by the strike, but by the card (and so is the maneuver).

> Pascal wrote: > The answer given above by James is correct. The press provided by Aid from Bats isn't provided by the strike, but by the card (and so is the maneuver). > The point at hand was that Ohlmann seemed to be asking if he could use Aid from Bats for just a maneuver and a press and then use a different strike after Immortally Grappling. I certainly could have misunderstood him. But that was what I was addressing.

> bakija wrote: > > > Pascal wrote: > > The answer given above by James is correct. The press provided by Aid from Bats isn't provided by the strike, but by the card (and so is the maneuver). > > > The point at hand was that Ohlmann seemed to be asking if he could use Aid from Bats for just a maneuver and a press and then use a different strike after Immortally Grappling. I certainly could have misunderstood him. But that was what I was addressing. > You were correctly adressing my question. I had forgotten that if you can't strike with a aid from bat (or any other maneuver + strike card, like slam) you can't strike at all in the first strike resolution of the round, thank, for the reminder.

> bakija wrote: > > > Pascal wrote: > > The answer given above by James is correct. The press provided by Aid from Bats isn't provided by the strike, but by the card (and so is the maneuver). > > > The point at hand was that Ohlmann seemed to be asking if he could use Aid from Bats for just a maneuver and a press and then use a different strike after Immortally Grappling. I certainly could have misunderstood him. But that was what I was addressing. > Your answer was correct. However, "choosing" a strike is a term used in the rules for a very specific declaration in a very specific window.

> Pascal wrote: > Your answer was correct. However, "choosing" a strike is a term used in the rules for a very specific declaration in a very specific window. > Would it be worth considering adding a "Fizzle" (or somesuch) section to 6.4.5 Strike Effects to explicitly state what happens when a strike has been declared but another effect (like Immortal Grapple) has made it an invalid strike? When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Jeff wrote: > > > Pascal wrote: > > Your answer was correct. However, "choosing" a strike is a term used in the rules for a very specific declaration in a very specific window. > > > Would it be worth considering adding a "Fizzle" (or somesuch) section to 6.4.5 Strike Effects to explicitly state what happens when a strike has been declared but another effect (like Immortal Grapple) has made it an invalid strike? > I don't know. I only see three cases: - Immortal Grapple vs Strike with a maneuver - "Strike can't be dodged" vs dodge - Sniper Rifle vs Drawing out the beast. These are already covered

Was looking for the rules on drawing the beast vs sniper rifle. Could you show me the link to it?

If the range is set with Sniper Rifle, you'll have to use it to strike. But if, after setting the range, the opponent plays Drawing out the Beast, you can't use the Sniper Rifle to strike.

Okay, so there is still a window by which a minion with a sniper rifle who blocks can set the range, before the opp vamp plays drawing out the beast?

Only if the acting vampire wants to: Drawing and the Sniper Rifle set range are played in the same Before Range window, and the acting minion always gets the first opportunity to play. However, the acting vampire can also decline to play, and if the reacting minion sets the range with Sniper Rifle, the acting vampire gets another opportunity to play Drawing after. The acting vampire's choice: play Drawing before to keep the range close, or play it after to cancel the rifle strike.

Ok, so basically its the acting vamp to set the range gotcha.