Methuselah A bleeds for 1, Methuselah B plays superior Strix. Does Methuselah A gain the edge?
Name: Strix
Cardtype: Reaction
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Striga
Burn Option
[str] +1 intercept, even if intercept is not yet needed. If this vampire successfully blocks this action, he or she untaps at the end of the action. [str] is not a Discipline.
[STR] Only usable when a bleed against you is successful. The bleed burns no pool. Instead, this vampire taps and enters combat with the acting minion.
From the rulebook section 6.1.1 Bleed:
"[...] Additionally, if the action succeeds and the bleed amount is one or more, then the bleed is successful and the controller of the acting minion gets the Edge, taking it from the Methuselah who has it."
Adam Esbjörnsson,
Prince of Örebro
> Xaddam wrote:
> Methuselah A bleeds for 1, Methuselah B plays superior Strix. Does Methuselah A gain the edge?
>
> Name: Strix
> Cardtype: Reaction
> Cost: 1 blood
> Discipline: Striga
> Burn Option
> [str] +1 intercept, even if intercept is not yet needed. If this vampire successfully blocks this action, he or she untaps at the end of the action. [str] is not a Discipline.
> [STR] Only usable when a bleed against you is successful. The bleed burns no pool. Instead, this vampire taps and enters combat with the acting minion.
>
> From the rulebook section 6.1.1 Bleed:
> "[...] Additionally, if the action succeeds and the bleed amount is one or more, then the bleed is successful and the controller of the acting minion gets the Edge, taking it from the Methuselah who has it."
>
IANPB but if the bleed was successful, it means the action succeeded and the bleed amount was 1 or more.
Then, the fact that the Methuselah burns no pool for that successful bleed doesn't mean the bleed is now unsuccessful.
The bleeding Methuselah gains the Edge.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
I am also not Pascal, but if no pool is lost during a bleed, then a bleed is not successful. Meth A does NOT gain the edge - what he/she gains instead is a fight with Meth B's vampire.
It's worded almost exactly like Spying Mission. you play it "when the bleed is successful" so it's after the opportunity to bounce, but suddenly it's not successful anymore because it's for 0. No edge gained.
> RaptorNut wrote:
> I am also not Pascal, but if no pool is lost during a bleed, then a bleed is not successful. Meth A does NOT gain the edge - what he/she gains instead is a fight with Meth B's vampire.
>
> Haze wrote:
> It's worded almost exactly like Spying Mission. you play it "when the bleed is successful" so it's after the opportunity to bounce, but suddenly it's not successful anymore because it's for 0. No edge gained.
>
Superior Strix is only playable when the bleed is successful. And the rulebook says that the edge is moved when the bleed is successful (which is required for superior Strix to be played) and the bleed amount is for more than 0. Superior Strix has a different wording than superior Spying Mission in that Spying Mission actually states that the bleed is unsuccessful.
None of the cards actually reduce the bleed amount, but rather the amount of pool being burnt.
Spying Mission
Type: Action Modifier
Requires: Obfuscate
[obf] +1 stealth.
[OBF] Only usable when a bleed would be successful. The bleed burns no pool; it is unsuccessful. Instead, put this card on the acting vampire. The next time this vampire successfully bleeds the same Methuselah, burn this card for +2 bleed.
I can't see how burning 0 pool could possibly be considered a successful bleed, any more than doing 0 damage to a minion could be considered successful damage
> Haze wrote:
> I can't see how burning 0 pool could possibly be considered a successful bleed, any more than doing 0 damage to a minion could be considered successful damage
>
Because of what the cards and the rulebook says.
As I wrote above, superior Strix can only be played if the bleed is successful. Further, it lacks the text that Spying Mission (an older card) has about the bleed being changed to unsuccessful. Archon Investigation, another card played in the same window (after a bleed is successful) also has that text (AI actually states the that entire action is unsuccessful, rather than just the bleed but for the purposes of this thread I think they have the same effect).
So the bleed is already successful before superior Strix is played. Strix does not change that (at least not explicitly, which is something other cards can do).
And, as stated in the OP, the rulebook says that:
"[...] Additionally, if the action succeeds and the bleed amount is one or more, then the bleed is successful and the controller of the acting minion gets the Edge, taking it from the Methuselah who has it."
There's nothing about the pool actually being removed or not.
Of course, the whole thing might just be a case of forgetting to add a line about the bleed/action being unsuccessful. That's hard to tell with only card text available.
Archon Investigation
Type: Master
Cost: 3 pool
Master: out-of-turn.
Only usable when a minion is attempting to bleed you and the bleed amount is 4 or more. Burn the acting minion. (The action is not successful.)
> Haze wrote:
> It's worded almost exactly like Spying Mission. you play it "when the bleed is successful" so it's after the opportunity to bounce, but suddenly it's not successful anymore because it's for 0. No edge gained.
>
Not exactly:
Spying Mission
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Obfuscate
[obf] +1 stealth.
[OBF] Only usable when a bleed would be successful. The bleed burns no pool; it is unsuccessful. Instead, put this card on the acting vampire. The next time this vampire successfully bleeds the same Methuselah, burn this card for +2 bleed.
Name: Strix
Cardtype: Reaction
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Striga
Burn Option
[str] +1 intercept, even if intercept is not yet needed. If this vampire successfully blocks this action, he or she untaps at the end of the action. [str] is not a Discipline.
[STR] Only usable when a bleed against you is successful. The bleed burns no pool. Instead, this vampire taps and enters combat with the acting minion.
It may be a unsignificant difference in the wording, but it's quite different indeed.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Is this question still under consideration?
The way I see it, this is how the antecedents and consequents work out:
1) Action is successful
2) The bleed amount is one or more
3) Bleed is successful
and then either;
X) Strix is played and resolved, no pool is burned
or;
Y) Edge is gained.
This can be solved by assigning Y=4 and thus the edge is already gained before Strix is played. The problem would be if X=4 and Strix is played first. Does the text on Strix "and burns no pool" counteract "bleed amount is one or more" and thus make the action an unsuccessful bleed (in a way reverting earlier game state, since the bleed has already been considered successful once, as a requirement for Strix to be played)?
Adam Esbjörnsson,
Prince of Örebro
Is't "the bleed is now unsuccesful" redundant text since it is now for zero and hence cannot be a succesful bleed?
As stated before it is posible to change a bleed from succesful to unsuccesful.
If you could gain the edge before strix then why couldnt you gain the edge before spying mission?
- I have bitten the mighy judge-beard.
> TunFiskeMad wrote:
> Is't "the bleed is now unsuccesful" redundant text since it is now for zero and hence cannot be a succesful bleed?
>
> As stated before it is posible to change a bleed from succesful to unsuccesful.
>
> If you could gain the edge before strix then why couldnt you gain the edge before spying mission?
>
Quote correct card text if you're gonna quote card text. Using quotation marks like that brings confusion.
Where was it stated that it's possible to change a bleed from successful to unsuccessful?
The differences in card text were listed on the first page of this thread. Please check those posts instead of asking for new ones on the same subject.
> henrik wrote:
>
> > TunFiskeMad wrote:
> > Is't "the bleed is now unsuccesful" redundant text since it is now for zero and hence cannot be a succesful bleed?
> >
> > As stated before it is posible to change a bleed from succesful to unsuccesful.
> >
> > If you could gain the edge before strix then why couldnt you gain the edge before spying mission?
> >
> Quote correct card text if you're gonna quote card text. Using quotation marks like that brings confusion.
>
> Where was it stated that it's possible to change a bleed from successful to unsuccessful?
>
> The differences in card text were listed on the first page of this thread. Please check those posts instead of asking for new ones on the same subject.
>
Regarding changing from succesful to unsuccesful, some of those cards have been mentioned several times; Archon investigation and spying mission to name a few.
If I didn't phrase the comment about strix card text clearly enough here it is again:
The text "the bleed is now unsuccesful" is redundant since a bleed for zero is unsuccesful.
- I have bitten the mighy judge-beard.
> TunFiskeMad wrote:
> Regarding changing from succesful to unsuccesful, some of those cards have been mentioned several times; Archon investigation and spying mission to name a few.
>
> If I didn't phrase the comment about strix card text clearly enough here it is again:
>
> The text "the bleed is now unsuccesful" is redundant since a bleed for zero is unsuccesful.
>
There's no such card with the cardtext you quote. I agree with Henrik: what are you talking about?
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> TunFiskeMad wrote:
> Regarding changing from succesful to unsuccesful, some of those cards have been mentioned several times; Archon investigation and spying mission to name a few.
>
There are those two, yes. None of them are played after the bleed is successful. None of them change the bleed from successful to unsuccessful. See the card texts below:
Name: Archon Investigation
Cardtype: Master
Cost: 3 pool
Master: out-of-turn.
Only usable when a minion is attempting to bleed you and the bleed amount is 4 or more. Burn the acting minion. (The action is not successful.)
Name: Spying Mission
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Obfuscate
[obf] +1 stealth.
[OBF] Only usable when a bleed would be successful. The bleed burns no pool; it is unsuccessful. Instead, put this card on the acting vampire. The next time this vampire successfully bleeds the same Methuselah, burn this card for +2 bleed.
> TunFiskeMad wrote:
> If I didn't phrase the comment about strix card text clearly enough here it is again:
>
> The text "the bleed is now unsuccesful" is redundant since a bleed for zero is unsuccesful.
>
It wasn't clear to me that you were talking about card text that didn't exist. It looked to me like you were misquoting the card text on Archon Investigation or Spying Mission.
Anyway, there's the question about whether Strix actually changes the bleed amount though, card text only states that "The bleed burns no pool". Reducing the pool burnt isn't necessarily the same as reducing the bleed amount.
As for the card text being redundant, it apparently wasn't redundant in other cases (Spying Mission, Archon Investigation) where it's actually quite clear that the bleeds would end up unsuccessful. The lack of such text on Strix could be either because it was deemed unneeded or because Strix was meant to work differently (which is sort of the core of the original question here).
The issue could be compared to Sudden Reversal/Wash vs Santaleous, where Santaleous lacks the "no cost is payed" text and thus works differently.
Name: Strix
Cardtype: Reaction
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Striga
Burn Option
[str] +1 intercept, even if intercept is not yet needed. If this vampire successfully blocks this action, he or she untaps at the end of the action. [str] is not a Discipline.
[STR] Only usable when a bleed against you is successful. The bleed burns no pool. Instead, this vampire taps and enters combat with the acting minion.
Fair enough, I just reread the bleed section of the rules:
rules section 6.1.1. Bleed
Additionally, if the action succeeds and the bleed amount is one or more, then the bleed is successful and the controller of the acting minion gets the Edge, taking it from the Methuselah who has it.
(I haven't quoted it all just the last paragraph).
Going by this I would have to conceed that it seems rather clear that the edge moves, since it is not the pool burned but the amount of the bleed that is relevant for the edge to move.
- I have bitten the mighy judge-beard.
> TunFiskeMad wrote:
> Going by this I would have to conceed that it seems rather clear that the edge moves, since it is not the pool burned but the amount of the bleed that is relevant for the edge to move.
>
That is the whole point in the discussion.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
I pinged LSJ about the design intent of that one. I'm still waiting for his answer. After an amount of time I decide too long, I'll answer here directly.
Rewording Strix as part of the "When bleed is successful" rewordings in RTR 20111202 .
New cardtext:
Name: Strix
Cardtype: Reaction
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Striga
Burn Option
[str] +1 intercept, even if intercept is not yet needed. If this vampire successfully blocks this action, he or she untaps at the end of the action. [str] is not a Discipline.
[STR] Only usable when a bleed against you {would be} successful. The bleed burns no pool. Instead, this vampire taps and enters combat with the acting minion.
This gets played in the usual Spying Mission window. Edge moves, per the definition of a successful bleed (bleed amount > 0 and successful action).
If you think altering it into "The bleed burns no pool {but remains successful}." would be clearer, let me know. That's a quick change that doesn't change how the card works, and that I can do on the fly.
> Pascal wrote:
> Rewording Strix as part of the "When bleed is successful" rewordings in RTR 20111202 .
>
> New cardtext:
>
> Name: Strix
> Cardtype: Reaction
> Cost: 1 blood
> Discipline: Striga
> Burn Option
> [str] +1 intercept, even if intercept is not yet needed. If this vampire successfully blocks this action, he or she untaps at the end of the action. [str] is not a Discipline.
> [STR] Only usable when a bleed against you {would be} successful. The bleed burns no pool. Instead, this vampire taps and enters combat with the acting minion.
>
> This gets played in the usual Spying Mission window. Edge moves, per the definition of a successful bleed (bleed amount > 0 and successful action).
>
> If you think altering it into "The bleed burns no pool {but remains successful}." would be clearer, let me know. That's a quick change that doesn't change how the card works, and that I can do on the fly.
>
I think that, if you were to feel that you had to change any wording on the card, you should change it to:
[STR] Only usable when a bleed against you {would be} successful. {The action (but not the bleed) is successful, and no pool is lost}. Instead, this vampire taps and enters combat with the acting minion.
In fact, I think we could use "{The action (but not the bleed) is successful, and no pool is lost}." on several cards, just to make it absolutely, crystal clear.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
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> KevinM wrote:
>
> > Pascal wrote:
> > Rewording Strix as part of the "When bleed is successful" rewordings in RTR 20111202 .
> >
> > New cardtext:
> >
> > Name: Strix
> > Cardtype: Reaction
> > Cost: 1 blood
> > Discipline: Striga
> > Burn Option
> > [str] +1 intercept, even if intercept is not yet needed. If this vampire successfully blocks this action, he or she untaps at the end of the action. [str] is not a Discipline.
> > [STR] Only usable when a bleed against you {would be} successful. The bleed burns no pool. Instead, this vampire taps and enters combat with the acting minion.
> >
> > This gets played in the usual Spying Mission window. Edge moves, per the definition of a successful bleed (bleed amount > 0 and successful action).
> >
> > If you think altering it into "The bleed burns no pool {but remains successful}." would be clearer, let me know. That's a quick change that doesn't change how the card works, and that I can do on the fly.
> >
> I think that, if you were to feel that you had to change any wording on the card, you should change it to:
>
> [STR] Only usable when a bleed against you {would be} successful. {The action (but not the bleed) is successful, and no pool is lost}. Instead, this vampire taps and enters combat with the acting minion.
>
> In fact, I think we could use "{The action (but not the bleed) is successful, and no pool is lost}." on several cards, just to make it absolutely, crystal clear.
>
If the bleed isn't successful, you don't get the edge.
I don't like the change to Strix because saying that "the bleed would be successful" with an "instead" later in the text makes one think that it is in fact not successful.
But with Strix, the bleed is successful even if no pool is burned.
I would write it:
"[STR] Only usable when a bleed against you {would be} successful. The bleed {is successful but} burns no pool {and} this vampire taps and enters combat with the acting minion."
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> I would write it:
>
> "[STR] Only usable when a bleed against you {would be} successful. The bleed {is successful but} burns no pool {and} this vampire taps and enters combat with the acting minion."
>
Good.
It is a successful action but it is NOT a successful bleed since there is no pool damage. Successful bleed actions need there to be an actual pool loss from the action resolution. The edge should not be gained from a bleed action which did not result in pool loss.
[STR] Only usable when a bleed against you {would be} successful. {The action is successful but burns no pool}. Instead, this vampire taps and enters combat with the acting minion.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
Making the bleed successful anyway have the badded advantage to make the card less confusing. You can't easily guess that Strix make the bleed fail but not the action, and I can see a lot of people having it wrong.
> Ohlmann wrote:
> Making the bleed successful anyway have the badded advantage to make the card less confusing. You can't easily guess that Strix make the bleed fail but not the action, and I can see a lot of people having it wrong.
>
You can already Freak Drive at after successfully resolving a bleed for 0 damage, so changing it so Strix would have a successful action but unsuccessful bleed is not a new feature of the game.
Successful actions only require that the action is not blocked or failed by some other means.
Successful bleeds (and therefore gaining the Edge) require the bleed action to resolve for 1+.
The easiest example would be to have a vampire with bleed for 1. The defending Methuselah chooses not to block and then plays Telepathic Counter at , reducing the bleed to -1. When the action is not blocked, it is a successful action, but the bleed amount is -1 and will resolve for 0 pool damage. This makes it a successful action and unsuccessful bleed. So the acting vampire can now play Freak Drive at and untap.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> It is a successful action but it is NOT a successful bleed since there is no pool damage. Successful bleed actions need there to be an actual pool loss from the action resolution. The edge should not be gained from a bleed action which did not result in pool loss.
>
Not per the current rules (already quoted earlier in this discussion).
Rulebook 6.1.1 wrote:
>
> Additionally, if the action succeeds and the bleed amount is one or more, then the bleed is successful and the controller of the acting minion gets the Edge, taking it from the Methuselah who has it, if any.
>
But Pascal, to be Devil's Advocate, how can there be a bleed amount of one or more if these is no Pool lost at resolution? It is easily argued that there a bleed amount is zero if the resulting pool loss is zero. I don't see why this card should be treated, regarding the edge, in any way differently to Spying Mission.
Yes, the acting minion should be able to play Freak Drive at . But no, I cannot see any good reason (thematically and in-game) for an action which causes no pool damage to result in movement of the edge.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> But Pascal, to be Devil's Advocate, how can there be a bleed amount of one or more if these is no Pool lost at resolution?
>
The bleed amount and the amount burned by a Methuselah aren't the same thing. (Though, clearly, in 95% of situations they are.)
Several examples: Protected Resources - the bleed amount is unchanged, but you only burn 2 pool (maximum) Night Moves (and similar 'ignore the excess' actions) - if I bleed you for four with Night Moves, by adding modifiers etc., it's still targetable by Archon Investigation. The amount is never reduced by Night Moves, but the pool burned is capped at one. [LSJ 20010502] Alamut cares about the amount of pool burned, not the bleed amount. (Which could come up fairly easily - I bleed you for two, you're on 1 pool, I oust you, Alamut gets one counter.)
So we already disconnect "bleed amount" and "pool burned". The rules on a successful bleed currently say they care about the former.
It also wouldn't be beyond the realms of imagination to imagine a card like:
Card Name, Master: Out-of-turn. Unique.
Play when a bleed is successful. Burn no pool now, but put this card in play with X+1 damage counters, where X is equal to the bleed amount. During your next discard phase, burn this card and one pool for each damage counter on it.
Intuitively, that would probably be regarded by most people as a successful bleed.
Actually that's entirely the opposite of what I would call a successful bleed, using your Hypothetical MOoT.
1) You took an action that wasn't blocked.
2) The action WOULD have dealt pool damage.
3) The MOoT was played and no pool damage was done as part of resolving the action. The Edge will not move.
So I would say that it was a successful action (was not blocked) that was an unsuccessful bleed (<1 pool was burned at resolution). Therefore the Edge should not move.
Strix functions differently to both Protected Resources and Night Moves (see below). Neither of them stops there being any pool damage, they limit the actual pool loss to 1 or 2. Strix explicity says that the bleed action burns no pool; a reduction of the bleed to 0 (if you want to play semantics the other way) or a limit of the pool loss to 0. Either way, there was not 1+ pool damage done as resolution of the action so the Edge shouldn't move.
The Edge has always been a 'reward' for taking successful bleed actions that damage your prey. Why should we now suddenly reward people for failing to deal pool damage to their prey?
Protected Resources and Night Moves don't stop pool being burned, they just alter the amount of pool burned.
Night Moves example
If you take the action Night Moves and it is not blocked, prey plays a Telepathic Counter at and you then follow it with say Conditioning @ ... it works out to be a bleed a +3/+6 stealth for a bleed amount of 2 which then burns only 1 pool but it still burns pool. Successful action (not blocked) and bleed (1+ pool was lost at resolution of the action)
Protected Resources example
If you bleed someone for 4 with Protected Resources and you are not blocked. The bleed would be successful and Protected Resources changes the pool that is burned to 2 or less but they still burn at least 1 pool. Successful action (not blocked) and bleed (1+ pool was lost at resolution of the action)
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> The Edge has always been a 'reward' for taking successful bleed actions that damage your prey. Why should we now suddenly reward people for failing to deal pool damage to their prey?
>
Wrong.
When it comes to bleed actions, gaining the Edge is only triggered on successful bleed actions (see quotes above).
Pool damage is most of the time related, but not always. There is no generic rule on pool damage vs the Edge (except, maybe, that if the target of the bleed does burn pool to the bleed, then you do get the Edge - but this isn't an equivalence).
But that dodges the point that the idea of the Edge is that you were the last Methuselah able to take an effective bleed action on your prey that resulted in pool loss. It is a reward for successfully bleeding and dealing damage. Spying Mission has clearly been written, ruled and errataed to exclude a 0-bleed transferring the Edge. Why should it be any different for Strix?
Why should the Edge, a reward for effectiveness as a predator, be given on resolution of an action that did nothing? You don't gain the Edge for hunting, rescuing or anything else except bleeding. Why should the Edge be given on a bleed action that has resolved for 0 pool damage? It doesn't if Telepathic Counter was used, why should it for Strix?
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> Why should the Edge, a reward for effectiveness as a predator, be given on resolution of an action that did nothing?
>
Because of card design?
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> You don't gain the Edge for hunting, rescuing or anything else except bleeding.
>
Sargon does. Why wouldn't another card do so?
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> Why should the Edge be given on a bleed action that has resolved for 0 pool damage? It doesn't if Telepathic Counter was used, why should it for Strix?
>
Because of card design?
You are mentioning a "reward" aspect for effectively burning pool that is not defined in the rulebook.
It feels like you want to twist the rules to suit your mood...
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> But that dodges the point that the idea of the Edge is that you were the last Methuselah able to take an effective bleed action on your prey that resulted in pool loss.
>
No, the Edge is nothing of the sort.
If I take a successful bleed action against *any* Methuselah, I get the Edge. Rulebook 1.2.3. Rulebook 6.1.1.
Additionally, I can take a successful bleed action against my prey and someone else may burn pool for it. (Major Boon - note that the target of the bleed isn't changed, which is important for e.g. Telepathic Counter.) I still get the Edge. Bleed amount greater than zero. Pool burned by target, zero.
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> It is a reward for successfully bleeding and dealing damage.
>
Incorrect.
See the references that have repeatedly been provided in this thread.
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> But that dodges the point that the idea of the Edge is that you were the last Methuselah able to take an effective bleed action on your prey that resulted in pool loss. It is a reward for successfully bleeding and dealing damage. Spying Mission has clearly been written, ruled and errataed to exclude a 0-bleed transferring the Edge. Why should it be any different for Strix?
>
Are you asking "Why don't we issue a ruling, errate the card, and reword the rulebook rather than apply what is currently existing"?
Probably because that's not the best way to deal with cards. Cardtext + rulebook should be enough 90% of the time. Up-to-date cardtext + up-to-date rulebook should be enough 99% of the time. I'm not sure Strix is the 1%. I'm actually quite confident that cardtext + rulebook apply quite well here.
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> Why should the Edge, a reward for effectiveness as a predator, be given on resolution of an action that did nothing? You don't gain the Edge for hunting, rescuing or anything else except bleeding. Why should the Edge be given on a bleed action that has resolved for 0 pool damage? It doesn't if Telepathic Counter was used, why should it for Strix?
>
Because the bleed amount isn't 0 with Strix, but it is with Telepathic Counter (in your previous example). So why should the Edge not move?
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
> See the references that have repeatedly been provided in this thread.
>
Yes, and while those are the rules... they do not explain the POINT of the Edge but merely its function. And while I have read those references and understand the definition of the function of the Edge in its mechanical sense... notice my argument is not about the MECHANICAL function of the Edge. My argument is about the way the Edge is supposed to be given to someone who successfully bleeds, which intuitively should be given to someone who deals pool damage through a bleed action.
I understand that the rules as currently written allow people the loophole of some kind of non-pool-damage-dealing-but-greater-bleed-amount-than-0 bleed action.
My point is, WHY should we interpret the rules to be read that way? Why should we not instead interpret it simply? No pool damage was done, so the Edge should not move. That would be intuitive.
> Rulebook wrote:
> If the action is successful, the target Methuselah burns an amount of pool equal to the bleed amount.((snip)) Additionally, if the action succeeds and the bleed amount is one or more, then the bleed is successful and the controller of the acting minion gets the Edge, taking it from the Methuselah who has it, if any.
>
The simple, direct reading of these two sentences after each other implies that the Edge should not move after a bleed resolves on the targeted player for zero via the Strix card.
Major Boon does not stop the pool being burned, other example cards of reducing the pool burned (Protected Resources and Night Moves) do not stop pool actually being burned and those cards that do reduce the pool actually being burned to zero (e.g. Spying Mission) result in a successful action but an unsuccessful bleed. Why should Strix be any different??? From that section of the Rules, and the text on Strix, I can still see no LOGICAL reason for Strix to be treated differently to Spying Mission.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> I can still see no LOGICAL reason for Strix to be treated differently to Spying Mission.
>
Incorrect. You stated the reason yourself, and proposed a change. What you don't understand is why Strix isn't ruled to be a bleed for 0, when Spying Mission was.
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> Yes, and while those are the rules... they do not explain the POINT of the Edge but merely its function. And while I have read those references and understand the definition of the function of the Edge in its mechanical sense... notice my argument is not about the MECHANICAL function of the Edge.
>
The rules aren't changed every time you have an epiphany about the greater truths of the universe.
If the designers had wanted to restrict the Edge to doing damage to your prey, they could have done. They didn't.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> Card Name, Master: Out-of-turn. Unique.
> Play when a bleed is successful. Burn no pool now, but put this card in play with X+1 damage counters, where X is equal to the bleed amount. During your next discard phase, burn this card and one pool for each damage counter on it.
>
Major Boon is already pretty much like this, and is probably the main reason for the original wording of the Edge.
> Pascal wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > I would write it:
> >
> > "[STR] Only usable when a bleed against you {would be} successful. The bleed {is successful but} burns no pool {and} this vampire taps and enters combat with the acting minion."
> >
> Good.
>
Considering the clarifications about replacement effects, the definitive cardtext for Strix at superior is:
[STR] Only usable if a bleed against you is about to be successful. The bleed burns no pool (but is still successful), and this vampire is locked and enters combat with the acting minion.
This means that this card cannot be played before or after Spying Mission, and if you play it after Major Boon, the Major Boon burns (because you didn't burn any pool).
To reflect the correct use of the "would..." pattern and work well with Archon Investigation, Spying Mission etc., Major Boon is also updated as:
Out-of-turn. Boon. Only usable if another Methuselah is being bled by a minion you do not control and the bleed amount is 1 or more, after blocks are declined.
Put this card in play. You burn pool for this bleed instead of the target Methuselah (and the bleed is still successful), or this card if you don't burn at least 1 pool. If you are about to be successfully bled, you can burn this card to have that Methuselah burn pool instead of you (and the bleed is still successful).
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director