Reversal of Fortunes

This card, into a deck with weenie Malkavians and Madness Network. Simply brokes the game, the guys plays alone for more than 1 hour. I think there is something to be done, so the game cannot be resumed at 1 player playing, others just stay and look.

You have never seen Una deck, have you?

I agree that Reversal of Fortune - Madness Network decks lead to some abuse. The card shouldn't be banned however, but should be restricted to twice a game so you can change the direction, and someone can revert it if he or she chooses too (and play the card of course). It would be a shame if my Barrenness-Scourge of the Enochians-Reversal of Fortune deck couldn't work anymore because of a ban Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

The deck has been around since Jyhad (or Ancient Hearts if you want the full weenie crypt) and has won only 2 tournaments so far. What is so abusive about it, especially compared to real turbo decks?

> Non-existant user wrote: > The deck has been around since Jyhad (or Ancient Hearts if you want the full weenie crypt) and has won only 2 tournaments so far. What is so abusive about it, especially compared to real turbo decks? > The trouble is that some players find it good and, even if it doesn't win in the end, make the game a total chaos. Either you win, either you make your predator win. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

It seem to be a fun deck. For the one who play it.

As Isak pointed out during his lecture in Warsaw: Players should be allowed to try out and play all kinds of decks. This includes decks that denies "being part of the game" to other players. Of course, "fun" is almost always defined by other measures ... National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de

Dark Influences? But yes, those decks can be a real horror for the table AND doesn't win often. I sat on a table with a RoF-deck once (played by Pascal Bertrand in Palma on day 2) once. It was okay, because talking to David Tatu and the rest of the table was a real pleasure, even though we both had not that much playing time. It was kind of interesting to see how Pascal was struggling to get the thing working . In the end the table had too many rounds to build up and he lost vote lock and was ousted by his predator. The table timed out. So my experience wasn't that bad. But I wouldn't be too amused if I had to wait for an hour until I can do anything, so I can imagine how you felt. The thing is, those decks are legal. This is VtES too. Baron of Frankfurt

> Pendargon wrote: > You have never seen Una deck, have you? > I had beaten Una deck 3 times. Once with an intercept/combat deck, once with a rush deck, once with a powerbleed and Pentex. I agree, once it starts, if nobody blocks or DI, Una can last for 30-45 mins. The problem with weenie Malkavians, the deck starts very quickly, and completely locks the game. Recently, this deck managed to enter the final of French Championship. It got stopped by a sudden on madness network, and a delay, I think.

> Marcus wrote: > > > Pendargon wrote: > > You have never seen Una deck, have you? > > > I had beaten Una deck 3 times. Once with an intercept/combat deck, once with a rush deck, once with a powerbleed and Pentex. I agree, once it starts, if nobody blocks or DI, Una can last for 30-45 mins. > The problem with weenie Malkavians, the deck starts very quickly, and completely locks the game. Recently, this deck managed to enter the final of French Championship. It got stopped by a sudden on madness network, and a delay, I think. > ... resulting in the victory of its predator. I had the opportunity to play DI on that Delaying Tactics, the Reversal of Fortune deck wanted to deal but it would have led to nowhere (he was my grand-predator and that kind of deck can only deal with its prey or predator). So he just get ousted and the whole table was imbalanced. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

First off, the deck relies on Madness Network. It can easily be Suddened, or burned as a simple action. If this is a RoF vote deck, it's probably going to have trouble defending the Madness Network (or surviving combat if they do block). Secondly, it relies on passing Reversal of Fortunes. Weenie Malks aren't really known for having lots of votes. So if anyone else is playing political decks, they can discard vote cards. An early titled vampire could easily shut down hopes of passing RoF as well. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> echiang wrote: > Secondly, it relies on passing Reversal of Fortunes. Weenie Malks aren't really known for having lots of votes. So if anyone else is playing political decks, they can discard vote cards. An early titled vampire could easily shut down hopes of passing RoF as well. > They're not known for having lots of votes, but they're one of the better weenie voting clans. The combination of Malk Justicar/Cryptic Rider and Malkavian Rider Clause means that they're pretty good at being able to pass votes unexpectedly.

> echiang wrote: > First off, the deck relies on Madness Network. It can easily be Suddened, or burned as a simple action. If this is a RoF vote deck, it's probably going to have trouble defending the Madness Network (or surviving combat if they do block). > > Secondly, it relies on passing Reversal of Fortunes. Weenie Malks aren't really known for having lots of votes. So if anyone else is playing political decks, they can discard vote cards. An early titled vampire could easily shut down hopes of passing RoF as well. > You didn't see it run. It has two minions on turn two, one of them being a Malkavian. Which means Madness Network is in play, by then. One of the minion bleeds (if necessary - that'sa guess the player has to do), the other plays Praxis Seizure / Malkavian Justicar. A new Malk enters the game. On prey's turn (remember this is turn 2/3), plays reversal of Fortunes. Pentexes the guy who just came up. That's the regular start. Then, it just plays with Reversals and Smiling Jack.

It is a trick deck. While extremely annoying, that doesn't mean it's imbalanced or broken. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Jeff wrote: > It is a trick deck. While extremely annoying, that doesn't mean it's imbalanced or broken. > While it is certainly a knife edge kind of strategy that isn't that difficult to derail from the get go--someone plays SR on the Madness Network, someone DT/DIs the Reversal of Fortune, the deck doesn't shuffle well, etc., when it *does* go off, it is kind of a nightmare as two or three players at the table never do *anything*. As noted, you can get out a weenie Malk on the first turn, on the second turn, play Madnenss Network, make the weenie Malk the Justicar, get out a second guy, and then on your prey's turn, call Reversal of Fortune, and go from there. What this results in is the two people across the table taking 1 turn before getting locked out of the game, and your predator or prey getting locked out of the game (depending on who you feel like hosing). I don't know that I'd call this particular strategy wildly overpowered or anything, as it is difficult to set up and easy to derail. But it certainly is disruptive to a reasonable game.

Even the Una Deck(TM), coming out on turn 3 and going off (presumably) on turn 4, isn't super-fast. If anyone can show me a Reversal of Fortunes deck that is a turn 2 (3?) kill, I'd like to see it. I doubt it can even reliably oust a prey on turn 5. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

I think the point is to get the combo set up, then do the Smiling Jack dance for a bit, then once it's big enough, whack your prey with it a few times as it builds. If you've locked down their uncontrolled vampires with Brainwash, then they can't even act to remove it. Once you have a new prey, Brainwash them as well. Since they've never had any turns to speak of, they shouldn't have minions to burn Jack either. I'm going to have to try this abuse out for myself! When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> KevinM wrote: > I doubt it can even reliably oust a prey on turn 5. > The issue isn't really the speed of ousting. It is kind of more the slowness of ousting--a buddy of mine (Steve) was playing this kind of deck relatively recently, and he'd bring it out, warn us, and we'd give it a go. One game I was across the table from this deck (I think I was the Reversal of Fortune's grand prey?). We started the game. Steve got it going on, like, turn 2 or turn 3. My prey and I (i.e. the two guys at the table not next to the Reversal of Fortune deck) got up and left the room. We'd check in once and a while. After an hour had passed (literally. An hour.), it still hadn't moved to my next turn. And no one was playing excessively slowly. It just never got to be my 3rd (or 4th or whatever it was) turn. Eventually, something went wrong, the Reversal deck lost its lock, and I accidentally won the game 'cause the Smiling Jack went around the table, demolished folks, the Reversal deck got killed, and then I kind of wandered into victory. Which was very silly. In any case, the issue is that the deck makes it so some people at the table literally don't take turns. For an extended period of time. While other folks are. Again, I'm not saying this is wildly overpowered or anything (I think the similar yet much more effective Una deck is, well, much more effective). But when this kind of deck goes off, it is time for a couple people at the table to go and get lunch.

Both Orian's decks were able to do that. www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?deck=view&id=2802 (which is the first version he played, but not the best) www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?deck=view&id=5555 (which is probably stronger)