Another idea to improve usability of melee weapons.
(see topic www.vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/15794-card-idea-my-best-friend-melee-weapon-related-card)
Name: March to War
Cardtype: Action modifier
Discipline: Celerity
Only usable after an equip with a melee weapon action is successful.
[cel] Untap this acting vampire.
[CEL] As above, and this vampire may enter combat with any ready minion as a action this turn.
It allows you to save an action to get that melee weapon. The interesting thing is that once you have one minion equipped with a melee weapon, any other of your minions may equip that weapon and use March to War to get the rush. (So basically, it becomes a rush once you have at least one melee weapon in play).
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
I love it. I had a somewhat similar idea, but this version seem a lot better, since it does not have the rules problems linked to trying to stuff both equiping and other thing in one action.
Not so good as it could be. I'm not talking about game balance, but who will play this card? Assamites? !Salubri are fans of melee weapons, but they don't have celerity.
How about some variants:
a) Only usable after an equip with a melee weapon action is successful.
-- any weapon. Would this overpower gun combat too much?
b) [cel] Put this card on the acting minion. This minion can burn this card to enter combat with any ready minion as action. A minion can have only one March to War.
[CEL] As above, and untap this minion.
-- switched effects. Side effect: if action to enter combat from this card is blocked, card isn't burned.
> jAvel wrote:
> Not so good as it could be. I'm not talking about game balance, but who will play this card? Assamites? !Salubri are fans of melee weapons, but they don't have celerity.
>
Anyone that want to play melee weapons and can't (just because it's plainly inferior to playing .44 magnums).
> jAvel wrote:
> How about some variants:
> a) Only usable after an equip with a melee weapon action is successful.
> -- any weapon. Would this overpower gun combat too much?
>
I wouldn't bring back balance between melee and ranged weapons.
> jAvel wrote:
> b) [cel] Put this card on the acting minion. This minion can burn this card to enter combat with any ready minion as action. A minion can have only one March to War.
> [CEL] As above, and untap this minion.
> -- switched effects. Side effect: if action to enter combat from this card is blocked, card isn't burned.
>
No.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> jAvel wrote:
> Not so good as it could be. I'm not talking about game balance, but who will play this card? Assamites? !Salubri are fans of melee weapons, but they don't have celerity.
>
Brujah and toreador, in addition to Assamite, could use it. For them, a Bang Nakh or a poker plus this card would (hopefully) be a valid option to replace Heroic Strength or Art of Pain.
Adding gun to the mix mean that melee weapon would still be very weak. Why equip a sword and not a .44 if even this card work for melee weapon ?
Melee combat will always be inferior to hand strike combat, but this card is nice.
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
> Lech wrote:
> Melee combat will always be inferior to hand strike combat, but this card is nice.
>
The main issue melee weapon would have after this would be to have enough weapon in hand and yet not too much. ANd this card somehow allow to play less weapons.
Apart from this, what would melee weapon combat lack in your opinion ?
nice card. Could be Valeren instead of celerity, with some celerity effect as an outferior, f.e:
Name: March to War
Cardtype: Action modifier
Discipline: Celerity
[cel] Only usable after an equip with a melee weapon action is successful.
Untap this acting vampire.
[val] Only usable during an equip with a melee weapon action.
+1 stealth, usable even if stealth is not needed and untap this acting vampire if the action is succesfull.
[VAL] As above, and this vampire may enter combat with any ready minion as a action this turn.
> alek wrote:
> nice card. Could be Valeren instead of celerity, with some celerity effect as an outferior
>
Simply no.
First, www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?lib=1019 so it's not too useful to valeren.
Second, giving celerity to your Valeren user is MUCH easier than giving celerity to your Assamite, Brujah and Toreador ; thoses clans mean much more than an obscure bloodline supported in two extensions ; and Salubri are far from the only one supposed to use weapons.
What about an anarch card that featured ? (Can bloodline disciplines mix with anarch cards?)
Name: March to War
Cardtype:
Discipline: and/or and/or
Requires an anarch. Only usable after an equip with a melee weapon action is successful. If using , untap this vampire. If using , this vampire may enter combat with any ready minion as a action this turn. If using , put this card on this vampire; he or she may burn the card during combat to convert a melee weapon's damage to aggravated damage for one round.
...But I'll admit that it's far less elegant than the original version.
I understand the will behind all that Valeren, but the goal is too make melee weapons more playable, not restrict them to a clan which has already plenty of cards for melee weapons (and that still doesn't play them)
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> It allows you to save an action to get that melee weapon. The interesting thing is that once you have one minion equipped with a melee weapon, any other of your minions may equip that weapon and use March to War to get the rush. (So basically, it becomes a rush once you have at least one melee weapon in play).
>
Just a modification, since it seems to not provide a 'way' to rush... and no 'impetus' to rush. (I know you have the text there, but I'd prefer to have a 'card in play' to provide that rush). I'd want to give an explicit 'rush method' (burning the card) and also a push to make the rush happen (use it or lose it)
Name: March to War
Cardtype: Action modifier
Discipline: Celerity
Only usable after an equip with a melee weapon action is successful.
Untap this acting vampire.
As above, and put this card on this vampire. This vampire may burn this card to enter combat with any ready minion as a action this turn. Burn this card in the next discard phase.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > It allows you to save an action to get that melee weapon. The interesting thing is that once you have one minion equipped with a melee weapon, any other of your minions may equip that weapon and use March to War to get the rush. (So basically, it becomes a rush once you have at least one melee weapon in play).
> >
> Just a modification, since it seems to not provide a 'way' to rush... and no 'impetus' to rush. (I know you have the text there, but I'd prefer to have a 'card in play' to provide that rush). I'd want to give an explicit 'rush method' (burning the card) and also a push to make the rush happen (use it or lose it)
>
People usually leave the pending cards on the table (Torn Signpost etc.) so adding extra text won't be that useful. Plus you have to remember to burn the card during your next untap anyway, so one way or the other, there's an effort of memory to provide.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ohlmann wrote:
>
> > Lech wrote:
> > Melee combat will always be inferior to hand strike combat, but this card is nice.
> >
> The main issue melee weapon would have after this would be to have enough weapon in hand and yet not too much. ANd this card somehow allow to play less weapons.
>
> Apart from this, what would melee weapon combat lack in your opinion ?
>
No, the main issue is that against combat decks you often can't use your melee weapon as enemy is either playing long range combat which trump melee by default or use Immortal Grapple, or is playing anti-equipment cards like blood fury/terror frenzy/drawing out the beast(or play prevention cards that destroy melee weapons). Only ranged combat trumps hand strike-based combat from those.
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
That argument can be repeated for every deck that fights. Combat decks just kill eachother.
Melee weapons are bad because they cost the same amount of pool as ranged weapons, give no additional advantage (such as the maneuver on a gun) AND leave yourself open to hitback. On top of all of that they need deck infrastructure to actually be equipped too. Like, when you consider playing 6 Bang Nakh's and 6 Concealed Weapons, you might as well play 12 melee strike cards and have the exact same effect except it doesn't need 2-card combo's to work making it less fragile and not costing pool.
> Izaak wrote:
> Like, when you consider playing 6 Bang Nakh's and 6 Concealed Weapons, you might as well play 12 melee strike cards and have the exact same effect except it doesn't need 2-card combo's to work making it less fragile and not costing pool.
>
But Bang Nakh is not supposed to be compared to strikes but to cards like Preternatural Strength.
Preternatural Strength work because it's way cheaper (1 blood vs 2 pool) and can't be destroyed easily.
Melee weapons may work with this card because you can swap it (using one weapon for 2 vampires) and this card lower theirs cost (not tapping, and no need to have both the weapon, the concealed weapon, and an occasion to enter combat)
I'm not comparing a melee weapon to a strike card. I'm saying that if you want to use melee weapons and add the required infrastructure to your deck, it's in 99% of the cases better to just play strike cards in those cardslots and end up with a better deck.
> Izaak wrote:
> I'm not comparing a melee weapon to a strike card. I'm saying that if you want to use melee weapons and add the required infrastructure to your deck, it's in 99% of the cases better to just play strike cards in those cardslots and end up with a better deck.
>
That's why melee weapons need to be strengthened
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Izaak wrote:
> That argument can be repeated for every deck that fights. Combat decks just kill eachother.
>
> Melee weapons are bad because they cost the same amount of pool as ranged weapons, give no additional advantage (such as the maneuver on a gun) AND leave yourself open to hitback. On top of all of that they need deck infrastructure to actually be equipped too. Like, when you consider playing 6 Bang Nakh's and 6 Concealed Weapons, you might as well play 12 melee strike cards and have the exact same effect except it doesn't need 2-card combo's to work making it less fragile and not costing pool.
>
Many strike cards work at both ranges and/or aren't affected by immortal grapple. Melee are way less reliable it's unable to even be used fairy often.
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
> Lech wrote:
> Many strike cards work at both ranges and/or aren't affected by immortal grapple.
>
I can't see a strike that work at range AND are unaffected by Immortal Grapple.
But that's true that the equipement destruction card are a bit too powerful for melee combat, since they already need to deal with maneuver without being cheaper than guns.
> Ohlmann wrote:
>
> > Lech wrote:
> > Many strike cards work at both ranges and/or aren't affected by immortal grapple.
> >
> I can't see a strike that work at range AND are unaffected by Immortal Grapple.
>
> But that's true that the equipement destruction card are a bit too powerful for melee combat, since they already need to deal with maneuver without being cheaper than guns.
>
My bad, i was going to list other equipment hosers as well, not just immortal grapple.
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.