As always, changes contained herein do not go into effect for sanctioned tournaments for 30 days. (So these become active on January 1st, 2012.)
New terms:
=====
Ballot:
A “ballot” is the name of the former’s priscus vote, cast in the prisci subreferendum. A ballot isn’t a vote, so some cardtexts were updated to match the distinction. For instance, Bribes now reads : “Only usable during a referendum before votes {and ballots} are cast.
Gain 1 pool. Any other Methuselah who {casts one or more votes or ballots} in favor of and does not {cast votes nor ballots} against the referendum gains 1 pool when the results of the referendum are tallied.”
Rulebook updates:
=====
The Prisci block (6.3.3):
The prisci as a group have 3 votes. During a referendum, the prisci block of 3 votes is cast "for" or "against" the referendum according to the prisci subreferendum. Each ready priscus provides 1 ballot for this subreferendum, and votes may not be used in this subreferendum.
Each ballot cast is either "for" or "against" the main referendum. Whichever side has the greater number of ballots in the subreferendum gains 3 votes in the main referendum. If the subreferendum is tied, the prisci block abstains from the main vote. As vampires cast their
ballots in the subreferendum, the prisci block of 3 votes might shift between "for", "against", and "abstain" (as the majority in the subreferendum changes). A vampire must cast all of his votes and ballots in agreement.
Action taken from Card in play (6.1.6):
A minion cannot perform {each} action allowed by a card in play more than once each turn, even if he untaps. This addresses a question regarding the Kaymakli Fragment (but applies to several other cards too).
Terminology (11): “Ballot”:
The influence a Priscus has. A Priscus title grants 1 ballot.
“During X, do Y”:
The “during X do Y” template is used in several cards. When this template is used, only one Y can be done per X with this card. For instance, you may move blood from your vampire to your pool with Vessel only once per untap phase.
“Cancel a card”:
A "canceled" card has no effect, but it is still considered played. Unless explicitly written, cost for the card is paid. If the card was a strike card, the minion who played it must choose a strike, which might come from another strike card. If the
card was an action card, the minion doesn’t tap (he doesn’t pay for the action card), and can play the same action card again.
“Tap X to do Y”:
Some cards use this wording, for instance: superior Bauble, Isanwayen. Such effects can’t be used by tapped minions, even those “able to play cards as though untapped”. These effects require an untapped minion to be used. Conversely, “Tap X. Do Y”
effects (for instance: Redirection) are usable by tapped minions “able to play cards as though untapped”.
Complete Rules Reference (Outline):
======
Cost of a card:
When there are several options to pay the cost of a card, the Methuselah playing the card must announce, as part of the terms of the card, how other cards will be used to pay for the cost. For instance, a Ravnos playing an Embrace while Ravnos Carnival is in play must announce how much blood from the Carnival will be used to pay for the Embrace. Similarly, when using Travis “Traveler72” Miller’s built-in action, the Methuselah must announce which conviction will be used to pay for the cost (if Travis has more than one kind).
End of turn:
Your turn ends when your discard phase ends. The Outline had this wrong.
Clarifications:
======
Advanced vampires:
All advanced vampires now read "Advanced" in their cardtext (some of them were lacking it).
Spelling:
Some typos (Ahrimanes, Blood Brothers) have been fixed.
Strike with Conviction:
If the action to bleed with Strike with Conviction is blocked, Strike with Conviction isn’t burned. The action it provides is to burn it and bleed (none of which happens if the action is blocked).
Titled vampires:
All vampires with “... has X votes” now have the “(titled)” cardtext.
Unique locquipment:
Equipment cards that represent unique locations in play have been updated to show they are unique equipment when not in play. For instance, Ankara Citadel is a unique equipment when it is in the ash heap.
Wording of “successfully [bleeds]”:
When appropriate, this has been replaced with “when [..] would successfully [bleed]”. Examples are Andre LeRoux, superior Spying Mission, Dis Pater.
Wording of “when X plays”:
Rulings show this effect always applies after the “as played” window. Cardtexts (Permanency, Sascha Vykos ADV, Servitor of Irad, Swiss Cut, Troglodytia) have been updated for better understanding.
Errata:
=======
Ballots:
Several library and crypt cards were updated to match the ballot keyword. All the rulings that applied to such cards have been used to keep consistency.
Change aggravated damage to normal:
Cards with "change X aggravated damage to normal" have been updated to match "treats X aggravated as normal" - Adaptability, Death Pact, Fire Dance, Merrill Molitor. The damage is still aggravated (for matters such as Soak or Rötschreck).
Combat cards are played inside combat:
Psyche! and Coordinate Attacks have had their cardtexts changed to match the fact that they are combat cards, and should be played inside combat. These cards are now playable at the end of a round with no next round. They are treated as normal combat cards.
Domain of Evernight:
[TEM] Only usable when an action is successful. {Usable after resolution.} Untap this acting vampire. A vampire can play only one Domain of Evernight at superior each turn.
Pocket Out of Time:
[TEM] {Playable after a combat.} After any combat this action, this vampire can burn 1 blood to start a new combat with the opposing minion (if both combatants are still ready).
Villein:
Master: trifle.
Put this card on a vampire you control and move 2 or more blood from that vampire to your pool. Minion Tap cards cost {you} an additional pool. Villein costs an additional pool to play on this vampire.
Tournament Rules update:
=====
Section 4.1 Cards allowed:
Cards allowed All cards in a player's deck must be genuine Vampire: The Eternal Struggle or Jyhad cards or official V:EKN issued cards from the only authoritative source www.vekn.net. When using V:EKN issued cards they must be color printed on standard paper and inserted
into opaque sleeves before another Vampire: The Eternal Struggle or Jyhad card, this requires opaque sleeves for the whole crypt and/or library. Section 4.8 Play to win:
During the finals, playing to win means playing to finish as tournament winner (as defined in 3.7.5).
Currently not on vekn.net.
Latest (but not final) version is here (I'll keep versions for those who want to run diffs)
floppyzedolfin.free.fr/vtes/cardlist/cardlist-20111202
NOTA: Psyche! and Coordinate Attacks' cardtexts aren't final. They should be "After this round, begin a new combat with the opposing minion".
> Pascal wrote:
> [/ul] Villein:
> Master: trifle.
> Put this card on a vampire you control and move 2 or more blood from that vampire to your pool. Minion Tap cards cost {you} an additional pool. Villein costs an additional pool to play on this vampire.
>
Wow, so Villein was fixed already to no MT-hosing anymore. That was fast . Dig out your Minion Taps, guys.
Baron of Frankfurt
> Joscha wrote:
>
> > Pascal wrote:
> > [/ul] Villein:
> > Master: trifle.
> > Put this card on a vampire you control and move 2 or more blood from that vampire to your pool. Minion Tap cards cost {you} an additional pool. Villein costs an additional pool to play on this vampire.
> >
> Wow, so Villein was fixed already to no MT-hosing anymore. That was fast . Dig out your Minion Taps, guys.
>
Still wallpaper but atleast now you can use it in:
1. Deck with low amount of master phase actions.
and/or
2. Lack of Villeins and you don't play in a tournament.
> Pascal wrote:
> Section 4.1 Cards allowed:
>
> Cards allowed All cards in a player's deck must be genuine Vampire: The Eternal Struggle or Jyhad cards or official V:EKN issued cards from the only authoritative source www.vekn.net. When using V:EKN issued cards they must be color printed on standard paper and inserted
> into opaque sleeves before another Vampire: The Eternal Struggle or Jyhad card, this requires opaque sleeves for the whole crypt and/or library.
>
If I'm using zero VEKN-issued cards in my deck, do I need to sleeve my entire deck?
Thanks!
Ira
> chaitan wrote:
> Still wallpaper but atleast now you can use it in:
>
> 1. Deck with low amount of master phase actions.
> and/or
> 2. Lack of Villeins and you don't play in a tournament.
>
Also, you can recycle your minions taps with Anthelios or Sargon Tablet, while recycling Villein is not exactly easy task.
> chaitan wrote:
>
> > Joscha wrote:
> >
> > Wow, so Villein was fixed already to no MT-hosing anymore. That was fast . Dig out your Minion Taps, guys.
> >
> Still wallpaper but atleast now you can use it in:
>
> 1. Deck with low amount of master phase actions.
> and/or
> 2. Lack of Villeins and you don't play in a tournament.
>
Don't underestimate the power of Minion Tap + Anthelios + Parthenon (or suitable vamps). With Voter cap. or other blood-generating cards MT can be better than Villein.
Baron of Frankfurt
In fact, I'll go to the super market to buy buckets of popcorn.
Voter Captivation is the new Lilith's Blessing.
I'll say it once: there's nothing wrong with Voter Captivation.
> Ira wrote:
>
> > Pascal wrote:
> > Section 4.1 Cards allowed:
> >
> > Cards allowed All cards in a player's deck must be genuine Vampire: The Eternal Struggle or Jyhad cards or official V:EKN issued cards from the only authoritative source www.vekn.net. When using V:EKN issued cards they must be color printed on standard paper and inserted
> > into opaque sleeves before another Vampire: The Eternal Struggle or Jyhad card, this requires opaque sleeves for the whole crypt and/or library.
> >
> If I'm using zero VEKN-issued cards in my deck, do I need to sleeve my entire deck?
>
> Thanks!
>
No.
> Ira wrote:
>
> > Pascal wrote:
> > Section 4.1 Cards allowed:
> >
> > Cards allowed All cards in a player's deck must be genuine Vampire: The Eternal Struggle or Jyhad cards or official V:EKN issued cards from the only authoritative source www.vekn.net. When using V:EKN issued cards they must be color printed on standard paper and inserted
> > into opaque sleeves before another Vampire: The Eternal Struggle or Jyhad card, this requires opaque sleeves for the whole crypt and/or library.
> >
> If I'm using zero VEKN-issued cards in my deck, do I need to sleeve my entire deck?
>
> Thanks!
>
No.
And if the only VEKN-issued card in your deck is a crypt card, it is not required that you sleeve your library.
So just to confirm this, villein no longer penalizes minion tap for the presence of multiple villeins? Example: 4 villeins in play, you pay 1 pool only for playing minion tap.
Lastly, if the vampire has two villeins already, playing another one on this same vampire would cost 2 pool?
Suppose Paul has a Villein on Anson and two on Alexandra. Jim has a Villein on Korah. There are no other Villeins in play.
Emily plays Minion Tap on Lazverinus. This Minion Tap costs 0 pool because Emily controls no Villein.
Paul plays Minion Tap on Anneke. This Minion Tap costs 3 pool because Paul controls 3 Villeins.
> chaitan wrote:
> ]
>
> Still wallpaper but atleast now you can use it in:
>
> 1. Deck with low amount of master phase actions.
> and/or
> 2. Lack of Villeins and you don't play in a tournament.
>
A card that was a staple in the TWDA for years is certainly not wallpaper. It was for a while when the ever present Villein hosed it, but now it has been restored to exactly what it was before. I am sure we are going to see it played a lot now again and also you don't need certain cards to win. Look at Matt Morgan, he can win with everything, because he just plays a lot better than you. Stop complaining and start learning.
That issue aside, the V:EKN is working hard to keep this game well and alive and this was a big step to help the players. Yet there are people who don't appreciate anything, and that makes me angry.
> blackday wrote:
> Oh wow, that's a big change.
> Lastly, if the vampire has two villeins already, playing another one on this same vampire would cost 2 pool?
>
Yes.
Only Villein affecting other peoples Minion Tap has changed. Villein affecting villein not.
> johannes wrote:
> A card that was a staple in the TWDA for years is certainly not wallpaper. It was for a while when the ever present Villein hosed it, but now it has been restored to exactly what it was before. I am sure we are going to see it played a lot now again and also you don't need certain cards to win. Look at Matt Morgan, he can win with everything, because he just plays a lot better than you. Stop complaining and start learning.
>
> That issue aside, the V:EKN is working hard to keep this game well and alive and this was a big step to help the players. Yet there are people who don't appreciate anything, and that makes me angry.
>
I agree 160%.
> johannes wrote:
> That issue aside, the V:EKN is working hard to keep this game well and alive and this was a big step to help the players. Yet there are people who don't appreciate anything, and that makes me angry.
>
This guy is beneath your energy and your anger. I wish I could say he was just a troll.
While my preferred solution would have been "print more Villeins", I think the single word errata to Villein was the most elegant possible. I also really like that it wasn't (exactly) on the poll.
When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
Conversely, people can beat me constantly no matter what cards I use!
Seriously, Minion Tap was never wallpaper at any time. This step was not necessary although I can see reasons why people may think it good. Say Minion Tap will be somewhat more usable now than it was before. I used to hang out in the Magic the Gathering newsgroups for about 10 years or so after that game was created and the VtES newsgroup as well. One thing I discovered is that there's no limit to what someone or other will say about a card. I would encounter posts people made about how a card I thought was absolute wallpaper, someone else would insist was a God card that should be banned, and vica versa. If you argue about a card long enough, sooner or later someone will come along with a completely different perception of it than your's.
Fred
The guy complaining about Minion Tap still being wallpaper is perhaps trying to say that Villein is still more competitive than Minion Tap, and if a card is more competitive, it makes the other card wallpaper.
I am not saying at all that I agree with him, however. Villein may be better than Minion Tap in many decks, but Minion Tap it is NOT wallpaper now. This is a welcome change for those us who want to use Minion Tap in casual play and/or who do not want to pay extra money to replace all our Minion Taps with Villeins.
Minion Tap is great for political decks and fine for casual pool retrieval. Heck, this means my Assamite/Assault Rifle/Minion Tap/Clandestine Contract/Provision of the Silsila deck might be mildly effective!
Thanks to Pascal and the rules team for their thoughtful changes. It is good to see VEKN's active efforts to improve and update the game.
I really appreciate the "Ballot" change to Priscus votes. a very elegant change to clear up a lot of confusion when they interact with certain cards.
Villein's errata is interesting. It acknowledges that there has been power creep in the game, but doesn't try to "rewind" the game to pre-villein. I think I like this change. (also, on the rare times someone did play a Minion Tap, it was a little bit of a hassle to count every single villein on the table to calculate the cost)
now let's get back to discussing which cards should be f'ing bann'd...
> Haze wrote:
> I really appreciate the "Ballot" change to Priscus votes. a very elegant change to clear up a lot of confusion when they interact with certain cards.
>
Yes, because the term "vote" had two meanings: Votes cast in the referendum (including the Priscus block's three votes) and votes cast in the Priscus subreferendum.
I wonder if this changes how any cards actually function? I did some spot checks in Pascal's errata document, and it looks like everything works as you would expect it to: Prisci can be Bribed and and have their ballots Telepathically Counted, and they lose their ballot in a Free States Rant.
> johannes wrote:
> That issue aside, the V:EKN is working hard to keep this game well and alive and this was a big step to help the players. Yet there are people who don't appreciate anything, and that makes me angry.
>
Sadly, haters gonna hate, brother. Don't let them get to you. Instead, stifle your laughter as you're picking the remains of those ousted fools out of your teeth while you're stacking VPs to the ceiling.
Seriously, I think the VEKN has been doing a sniper-precise job. I know I've poked the gang a few times with a stick a few times while wearing the Devil's Avocado hat, but you folks should know that the silent majority out there knows that you're working hard and making a strong go of it. That probably doesn't get said enough. Thank you.
So just to double check... with this new window for Psyche!...
Q: Does Psyche still create a NEW combat? Do cards like Carrion Crows, and other "for the rest of combat" cards still end with Psyche!?
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> So just to double check... with this new window for Psyche!...
>
> Q: Does Psyche still create a NEW combat? Do cards like Carrion Crows, and other "for the rest of combat" cards still end with Psyche!?
>
Psyche! has the same effect as before, it's just that now it's a combat card played during combat.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Kushiel wrote:
> Seriously, I think the VEKN has been doing a sniper-precise job. I know I've poked the gang a few times with a stick a few times while wearing the Devil's Avocado hat, but you folks should know that the silent majority out there knows that you're working hard and making a strong go of it. That probably doesn't get said enough. Thank you.
>
Agreed! Thanks Johannes and VEKN, there are a lot of us who appreciate the effort you are putting in!
Nick
so psyche can no longer beat Rotschreck?
Sorry for being a hassle - love the villein errata by the way, great smooth fix.
- I have bitten the mighy judge-beard.
> Aaron wrote:
>
> > Haze wrote:
> > I really appreciate the "Ballot" change to Priscus votes. a very elegant change to clear up a lot of confusion when they interact with certain cards.
> >
> Yes, because the term "vote" had two meanings: Votes cast in the referendum (including the Priscus block's three votes) and votes cast in the Priscus subreferendum.
>
Three meanings. "Vote" was also used for "cast votes" (as in "A vampire voting against burns 1 blood"). I changed "vote" to a single usage.
> Aaron wrote:
> I wonder if this changes how any cards actually function? I did some spot checks in Pascal's errata document, and it looks like everything works as you would expect it to: Prisci can be Bribed and and have their ballots Telepathically Counted, and they lose their ballot in a Free States Rant.
>
I tried to keep everything as it was. I have a list somewhere of the changed cards, with "relevant" rulings for each of them (but sometimes, they follow the same "Only usable before votes are cast" pattern).
I hope Scalpel's Tongue and Demonstration vs Priscus will be cases easier solved.
> TunFiskeMad wrote:
> so psyche can no longer beat Rotschreck?
>
Still does. Rötschreck ends combat, so it ends the round. ( [LSJ 20001024] for an explanation - short version: "anything that ends combat ends the round as well.")
Psyche! being played in the "end of round" window, and Rotschreck ending the combat, thus the round, Psyche! (and other cards such as Taste of Vitae or Telepathic Tracking) is playable (and would create a new combat instead of sending the vampire Rötschreck is on to torpor).
> Pascal wrote:
>
> > TunFiskeMad wrote:
> > so psyche can no longer beat Rotschreck?
> >
> Still does. Rötschreck ends combat, so it ends the round. ( [LSJ 20001024] for an explanation - short version: "anything that ends combat ends the round as well.")
> Psyche! being played in the "end of round" window, and Rotschreck ending the combat, thus the round, Psyche! (and other cards such as Taste of Vitae or Telepathic Tracking) is playable (and would create a new combat instead of sending the vampire Rötschreck is on to torpor).
>
Err, "end of round" happens before "end of combat", at least according to the complete rules reference. Rotschreck (or any effect that ends combat)->end of round->end of combat. Taste of Vitae can't be ordered after superior Psyche!
I guess you might infer from LSJ's writing that end of round and end of combat are the same thing on rounds that end combat, but if so, it might be good to update the rules reference accordingly.
I'm ecstatic that Minion Tap is a useful card again, and is no longer just a poor man's proxy for Villein. I'll figure out and announce the details shortly, but I foresee sending out a free Minion Tap with every order from my store for a while as a celebration
And I'm looking forward to having Marthe Dizier pick up a Psyche! and return it to my hand the next time I bring her into play, the old ruling always made my head hurt.
VtES store : www.prunesquallor.net
Card supplies & games : stores.ebay.com/Prunesquallors-Secret-Cache
> prunesquallor wrote:
> And I'm looking forward to having Marthe Dizier pick up a Psyche! and return it to my hand the next time I bring her into play, the old ruling always made my head hurt.
>
Now the question is: how to give her a blood each combat without playing a card?
> Non-existant user wrote:
>
> > prunesquallor wrote:
> > And I'm looking forward to having Marthe Dizier pick up a Psyche! and return it to my hand the next time I bring her into play, the old ruling always made my head hurt.
> >
> Now the question is: how to give her a blood each combat without playing a card?
>
sociopath or perfectionist should do the trick
> Aaron wrote:
>
> > Pascal wrote:
> >
> > > TunFiskeMad wrote:
> > > so psyche can no longer beat Rotschreck?
> > >
> > Still does. Rötschreck ends combat, so it ends the round. ( [LSJ 20001024] for an explanation - short version: "anything that ends combat ends the round as well.")
> > Psyche! being played in the "end of round" window, and Rotschreck ending the combat, thus the round, Psyche! (and other cards such as Taste of Vitae or Telepathic Tracking) is playable (and would create a new combat instead of sending the vampire Rötschreck is on to torpor).
> >
> Err, "end of round" happens before "end of combat", at least according to the complete rules reference. Rotschreck (or any effect that ends combat)->end of round->end of combat. Taste of Vitae can't be ordered after superior Psyche!
>
> I guess you might infer from LSJ's writing that end of round and end of combat are the same thing on rounds that end combat, but if so, it might be good to update the rules reference accordingly.
>
I see your point. Similar to my "End of turn happens when the discard phase ends", but it's trickier to put in words.
Should probably say "Combat ends when a round with no next round ends". I might change that too, for clarity purposes.
Taste of Vitae will be orderable (?) with Psyche!
> johannes wrote:
>
> > chaitan wrote:
> > ]
> >
> > Still wallpaper but atleast now you can use it in:
> >
> > 1. Deck with low amount of master phase actions.
> > and/or
> > 2. Lack of Villeins and you don't play in a tournament.
> >
> A card that was a staple in the TWDA for years is certainly not wallpaper. It was for a while when the ever present Villein hosed it, but now it has been restored to exactly what it was before. I am sure we are going to see it played a lot now again and also you don't need certain cards to win. Look at Matt Morgan, he can win with everything, because he just plays a lot better than you. Stop complaining and start learning.
>
> That issue aside, the V:EKN is working hard to keep this game well and alive and this was a big step to help the players. Yet there are people who don't appreciate anything, and that makes me angry.
>
It is interesting how one misinterpreted line can cause so much anger. I do appreciate the change. VEKN did a great job. The change to villein was one of the best out of all possible. It accomplished several things with the addition of a single word and all the other changes was just made so much sense it wasn't worth commenting.
I do agree that was I a bit liberal with the word wallpaper since I did state that there was a few scenarios it was usable in. Just like how On the Qui Vie replaced Forced/Wake they still find their way into some decks where the drawback of On the Que Vie can't be ignored. Just like Minion Tap will.
Although it is better than it was before just doesn't mean it is a perfect change. Villein is above any beyond a better card than Minion Tap.
With that said,
Why are you using a bunch of logical fallacies to prove your point?
If card X exist in 1000 tournament winning decks and after that card Y is printed which is better than card X in every possible way. That just mean card X had a glorious past but the future is card Y.
Also, player skill has nothing to do with card viability. I don't doubt Matt Morgan can beat anybody with a hand full of Twisting the Knife but that doesn't mean it is a competative card.
> chaitan wrote:
> If card X exist in 1000 tournament winning decks and after that card Y is printed which is better than card X in every possible way. That just mean card X had a glorious past but the future is card Y.
>
You know, I hate to get anal about this but it is not a correct thing to say about Minion Tap ("card X") and Villein ("card Y"). Villein was not "better" than Minion Tap in every possible way or it would not have been printed. Minion Tap is still better for any kind of design that requires reaping blood from the same minion over and over. An example would be some kind of deck that employed exactly one minion to play the role of "fatty" while another minion possessed superior Obeah and employed Renewed Vigor on the fatty over and over. And while it's true that Villein is a trifle, this may not matter if the Minion Tap/Villein choice are the only master cards being employed by the deck. And the hosing nature of the Villeins only matter when someone else at the table is using Villeins - which, with Blood Dolls, Vessels, Tributes, Boons, and Voter Caps in the game as other means of blood management, is not the case very frequently.
I'm not necessarily criticizing the change, here. The attraction of the two cards clearly isn't equal and I understand why people didn't like this. Still, the argument that Minion Tap had been completely hosed in the past is overstated. And the statement that Villein was better in every possible way is just plain wrong.
> fredsct wrote:
> You know, I hate to get anal about this but it is not a correct thing to say about Minion Tap ("card X") and Villein ("card Y"). Villein was not "better" than Minion Tap in every possible way or it would not have been printed.
>
Nor did I claim it was. That is why I created a generic argument to prove a point about error in logic.
> chaitan wrote:
>
> > fredsct wrote:
> > You know, I hate to get anal about this but it is not a correct thing to say about Minion Tap ("card X") and Villein ("card Y"). Villein was not "better" than Minion Tap in every possible way or it would not have been printed.
> >
> Nor did I claim it was. That is why I created a generic argument to prove a point about error in logic.
>
You'll have to forgive people for misunderstanding you. One would assume you were making the "generic argument" as a direct allegory to Minion Tap and Villein - which would be the common reason to employ such a rhetorical device. Even if the specifics do not apply in every detail, the usual sense of such argument is that they apply well enough to make your point. But they don't.
Johannes was saying that Minion Tap - used heavily in tournament winning decks for many years until Villien came along - cannot possibly be wallpaper now that Villien no longer affects it. Post change, we are now so far from the status of Villein being "better than Minion Tap" in any way, throwing such a statement around in this thread is completely irrelevant to the point he was made. The only thing Villein has over Minion Tap now is trifleness. Trifleness is a pretty significant thing but it doesn't turn Minion Tap into wallpaper.
> fredsct wrote:
>
> > chaitan wrote:
> >
> > > fredsct wrote:
> > > You know, I hate to get anal about this but it is not a correct thing to say about Minion Tap ("card X") and Villein ("card Y"). Villein was not "better" than Minion Tap in every possible way or it would not have been printed.
> > >
> > >
> > Nor did I claim it was. That is why I created a generic argument to prove a point about error in logic.
> >
> You'll have to forgive people for misunderstanding you. One would assume you were making the "generic argument" as a direct allegory to Minion Tap and Villein - which would be the common reason to employ such a rhetorical device. Even if the specifics do not apply in every detail, the usual sense of such argument is that they apply well enough to make your point. But they don't.
>
> Johannes was saying that Minion Tap - used heavily in tournament winning decks for many years until Villien came along - cannot possibly be wallpaper now that Villien no longer affects it. Post change, we are now so far from the status of Villein being "better than Minion Tap" in any way, throwing such a statement around in this thread is completely irrelevant to the point he was made. The only thing Villein has over Minion Tap now is trifleness. Trifleness is a pretty significant thing but it doesn't turn Minion Tap into wallpaper.
>
Well said.
The word wallpaper is poorly defined. No card is truly so useless that will absolutely never ever see play (except maybe Becoming of Ennoia). When I say wallpaper I mean there are better alternatives regardless of the strength of the card.
Minion Tap is a strong card, no doubt about it. Even pre-nerf villein (where the general opinion said that MT was wallpaper) you could still take great advantage of it and possibly win assuming the metagame didn't cripple you too hard (but isn't that true for all decks?
Granted, Villein can not replace MT in a star vampire voter deck (or any deck that can repeatedly refill one or two star vampires) and as I first pointed out, if you have very few master cards then you can easily switch to MT instead of villein. I'm sure there are a few other niche decks it can fit into also that I didn't think of.
But that does not mean Villein isn't a stronger card if you look at them competitively. The synergy with cards such as Giants Blood, Lilith's Blessing and especially ANY other master phase action in hand or play is a much more likely consideration when you build a deck.
I think the most common definition for wallpaper is : completely useless in any competitive deck. Which is just not true for Minion Tap. Trifle is nice, but alone the generic possibility to gain up to 11 pool makes a card strong, trifle or not. If you had said MT is now an average card, well that can be discussed.
Also my argument is valid with the TWDA I think under this assumption: A staple card for TWD over years can still significantly contribute to the winning strength of a deck today assuming that decks today are not much stronger than they were 4 years ago. Do you think they are?
> “Cancel a card”:
> A "canceled" card has no effect, but it is still considered played. Unless explicitly written, cost for the card is paid. If the card was a strike card, the minion who played it must choose a strike, which might come from another strike card. If the card was an action card, the minion doesn’t tap (he doesn’t pay for the action card), and can play the same action card again.
>
Just to sum up it all. This mean, that cards:
Groundfighting, I am Legion, Mundane, Power of All, Pseudo-Blindness, Rewind Time, Treat the Sick Mind
- now will cancel cards, and cost will be still payed?
How about card React with Conviction (first part of text):
"When and effect that would change control of this imbued is played or announced, you may burn this card to cancel that effect."
Is the cost for cancelled effect payed? (mostly "burn corruption counters to ..")
> jAvel wrote:
>
> > “Cancel a card”:
> > A "canceled" card has no effect, but it is still considered played. Unless explicitly written, cost for the card is paid. If the card was a strike card, the minion who played it must choose a strike, which might come from another strike card. If the card was an action card, the minion doesn’t tap (he doesn’t pay for the action card), and can play the same action card again.
> >
> Just to sum up it all. This mean, that cards:
> Groundfighting, I am Legion, Mundane, Power of All, Pseudo-Blindness, Rewind Time, Treat the Sick Mind
> - now will cancel cards, and cost will be still payed?
>
Now as previously. I just figured out players were not all aware of some of LSJ's rulings: [LSJ 20090601]
>
> LSJ wrote:
> If it doesn't say "no cost", then the cost of the canceled card is paid.
>
> jAvel wrote:
> How about card React with Conviction (first part of text):
> "When and effect that would change control of this imbued is played or announced, you may burn this card to cancel that effect."
> Is the cost for cancelled effect payed? (mostly "burn corruption counters to ..")
>
The effect, in this case, is "burn the corruption counters to take control". No cost is paid. [LSJ 20070222] (which is a reversal of an answer given earlier).
> jAvel wrote:
> This mean, that cards:
> Groundfighting, I am Legion, Mundane, Power of All, Pseudo-Blindness, Rewind Time, Treat the Sick Mind
> - now will cancel cards, and cost will be still payed?
>
Rewind Time states that no cost is paid. At inferior, since the cost of action cards is paid upon resolution, it doesn't need to be indicated.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Can we get a confirmation ruling that Marthe can now play Psyche at the end of a combat (instead of outside of it), use her ability as the first combat ends but before the next starts to retrieve the Psyche to her hand, and then proceed to the next combat?
The question about Marthe has been asked here: vekn.net/index.php/forum/6-rules-questions/16788-new-psyche-and-telepathic-tracking#16820
But here it is again:
Marthe can play Psyche! at the end of a round of combat, retrieve it after combat (say in the "Obedience window"), and start the new combat.
> Kosmo_Kebab wrote:
> Anyone can give me example of vampire with "has X votes"?
>
Aziz, Dammar of Instanbul
Luna Giovanni
Bela Kardoza
Recieve X additional votes.
Amaravati
Gerald Windham
Ayo Igoli
Do not have X in the text but recieve a variable amount of additional votes.
The change in cardtexts is about cards that read "[This vampire] has X votes" (or simply "X votes"). It doesn't extend to vampires with "Has X additional votes", because that cardtext doesn't make the vampires titled.
[LSJ 20100601] wrote:
>
> > From what I remember, sources of additional votes do NOT convey
> > "Titled"-ness to a vampire.
>
> Correct. Having votes is not the same as being titled.
>
> > For example cards such as Firebrand,
> > Legendary Vampire and the effect of 3xOrun do NOT make the vampire
> > with those cards titled.
>
> > Alternatively, an Independant Vampire with 1 Vote, is a "Titled"
> > vampire.
>
> The card text on a crypt card "Me has 1 vote." is a title, yes.
> [10.4]
>
> > This becomes important particularly with something like Fee Stake:
> > XXX.
>
> > IF additional votes do NOT convey a "title", then any votes held by a
> > vampire with, for example Legendary Vampire + 6x Orun, would NOT be
> > affected by Fee Stake: XXX or any other card that reduces the votes of
> > "titled" vampires. Additionally, it would mean that the vampire could
> > NOT be targeted by any card which chooses a "titled" vampire.
>
> Correct. (unless that vampire also had an actual title).
>
Kosmo,
> 10.4. Independents
>
> Other clans are not aligned with any of the major sects; they are called Independent...
>
> Some Independent vampires may start with votes, as listed on card text. Treat these vampires as if they had titles of their own.
>
Classic examples of titled vampires include Thetmes, Amisa and Kephamos. Each is an Independent titled vampire who has "2 votes".
If a card has the worth "Title" on it and is put in play, it is a "title card." Examples include Praxis Seizures, Crusades, Justicars and Cardinal votes.
Other cards such as Heirophant don't say "Title" but rather "has 1 additional vote." Basically, contrast what the words say for cards played whether they say "Title" or "Additional votes" to distinguish.
When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
> 10.4. Independents
>
> Other clans are not aligned with any of the major sects; they are called Independent...
>
> Some Independent vampires may start with votes, as listed on card text. Treat these vampires as if they had titles of their own.
>
This is, IMHO, a pretty obscure portion of the rulebook to contain this rule. I was recently building a deck using some of the vampires you mention, and was considering whether to put in Free States Rant. I consulted every section in the book I could think of on politics and titles, and found nothing. I later found it (with the help of my opponents in a casual game )
It's an obscure part of the rulebook to put it because it's not so much relevant to Independents as it is to voting. So, just asking that if we ever have a rulebook revision, that the above "clarification" to old cards be put in a section relevant to political referendums.
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> prunesquallor wrote:
>
> > 10.4. Independents
> >
> > Other clans are not aligned with any of the major sects; they are called Independent...
> >
> > Some Independent vampires may start with votes, as listed on card text. Treat these vampires as if they had titles of their own.
> >
> This is, IMHO, a pretty obscure portion of the rulebook to contain this rule.
> ...
> So, just asking that if we ever have a rulebook revision, that the above "clarification" to old cards be put in a section relevant to political referendums.
>
Some years ago, I asked LSJ why the term "Titled" could not be placed on each independent vampire with votes? Then, why do you even need a rule like this at all?!? His answer to me was that he didn't want to "junk up" (my term for the essence of his meaning, not his) the card texts with excess terms like "Titled".
Now, to me, this kind of thing is exactly what you want in the card text: it's relevant, informative, and doesn't make the players depend on their memory (or be just plain confusing to the new players who haven't found the operative rule, yet) for this kind of minutia. To LSJ, it's basically junk.
This why head has bumps from banging on desktops.
Fred
> fredsct wrote:
> Now, to me, this kind of thing is exactly what you want in the card text: it's relevant, informative, and doesn't make the players depend on their memory (or be just plain confusing to the new players who haven't found the operative rule, yet) for this kind of minutia.
>
I totally agree.
> fredsct wrote:
> To LSJ, it's basically junk.
>
IANLSJ, but could it be that by this he meant that he'd like to reserve the limited textbox space in a card for the (unique) card texts which sometimes can run a bit long?
Finnish Politics!
> Lönkka wrote:
>
> > fredsct wrote:
> > To LSJ, it's basically junk.
> >
> IANLSJ, but could it be that by this he meant that he'd like to reserve the limited textbox space in a card for the (unique) card texts which sometimes can run a bit long?
>
"Titled" isn't a very long word. To save space, we could define the (T) keyword indicating the vampire is titled (like R damage)
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > Lönkka wrote:
> >
> > > fredsct wrote:
> > > To LSJ, it's basically junk.
> > >
> > IANLSJ, but could it be that by this he meant that he'd like to reserve the limited textbox space in a card for the (unique) card texts which sometimes can run a bit long?
> >
> "Titled" isn't a very long word. To save space, we could define the (T) keyword indicating the vampire is titled (like R damage)
>
A keyword would still need to be explained in the rulebook in order to make sense. Which would bring back this same issue.
> Lönkka wrote:
> but could it be that by this he meant that he'd like to reserve the limited textbox space in a card for the (unique) card texts which sometimes can run a bit long?
>
Yeah, that makes sense — look at Ur-Shulgi's text, it's fairly epic and his +1 bleed text was missed out:
Errata: Ur-Shulgi has +1 bleed. [RTR 20010710]
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> johannes wrote:
> Replace "Ur-Shulgi has 2 votes" with "Titled. 2 votes."
> Who else should have two votes except this vampire?
>
This would be better for the independent vampires.
If the "Titled" was explicitly printed on independent vampires and not on the sabbat/camarilla/laibon/anarch vampires with titles I think it would cause confusion anyway. And to type out "Titled." on all titled camarilla/sabbat/laibon/anarch vampires would require more space than the current way. Might still be worth it though.
> Amenophobis wrote:
> Or just "2 votes (T)." B)
>
Which would require people to check the rules for what "(T)" means, instead of checking the rules for whether "has x votes" is considered a title. So if the current problem is that "has x votes" is only defined as a title in the rulebook, that problem would still persist.
> henrik wrote:
>
> > Amenophobis wrote:
> > Or just "2 votes (T)." B)
> >
> Which would require people to check the rules for what "(T)" means, instead of checking the rules for whether "has x votes" is considered a title. So if the current problem is that "has x votes" is only defined as a title in the rulebook, that problem would still persist.
>
Do people check for what R means in 2R damage once they encountered this kind of cardtext?
But if there's space, I prefer "Independant. 2 votes (titled).
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> Do people check for what R means in 2R damage once they encountered this kind of cardtext?
> But if there's space, I prefer "Independant. 2 votes (titled).
>
The first time I guess they do, and after that I guess they remember it. Just like with "x votes". First time you encounter it (and wonders if it is a title) you look it up in the rules, after that you remember it.
I do agree that the part about "x votes" being a title could be stated on a better place in the rulebook though.
> Pascal wrote:
> Wording of “successfully [bleeds]”:
> When appropriate, this has been replaced with “when [..] would successfully [bleed]”. Examples are Andre LeRoux, superior Spying Mission, Dis Pater.
>
Other examples: Strix, Major Boon.
Shouldn't these changes be included into the respective areas, i.e. the changes to the tournament rules to the VEKN tournament section ? That page still lists the now-outdated rules for the 2011 tournament season.
Or in other words: Can somebody please do it!
Plus it would be nice to have the whole VEKN tournament rules as PDF, not just the individual sections.