New Card - Unstoppable Force

Unstoppable Force 2 If the blocking minion not ready after resulting combat, the action continues at -2 stealth. Cancel a card that cancels the action or combat as it is played

Is it intended to be playable even if your minion is not ready ? Frankly, I believe it's way too powerful even if you need to be still standing after the combat. Wall strategy would be blown away by this card ; in fact with this card you may just give up blocking altogether.

? And why instead of ? Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Ohlmann wrote: > Is it intended to be playable even if your minion is not ready ? > > Frankly, I believe it's way too powerful even if you need to be still standing after the combat. Wall strategy would be blown away by this card ; in fact with this card you may just give up blocking altogether. > It doesn't remove the minion from the ready region, you still have to do that. I can only think of 5 actions a vampire in torpor is allowed to take. On any of those, either the action fails with no combat or you are diablerized. All other actions would fizzle since they cannot be taken in torpor.

> Lech wrote: > ? And why instead of ? > Because already has enough. Unstoppable Force is a better name, but I thought it was already a card.

Like what exactly ? Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Shard wrote: > I can only think of 5 actions a vampire in torpor is allowed to take. > On any of those, either the action fails with no combat or you are diablerized. > All other actions would fizzle since they cannot be taken in torpor. > Well, it's better to precise that you must be ready to play the card. It's alway better to avoid confusion or misunderstanding. Still, this card is way more powerful than any other "continue your action" card that I know of. You get to put someone in torpor and you continue to act, unconditionaly. It hose blocking big time, without doing anything against other defenses, like bloating or redirect. So this would will just kill wall deck, nothing more.

maneuvers, additional strikes, restart combat, the most common clan discipline in the game and already has a continue the action card

> Shard wrote: > maneuvers, additional strikes, restart combat, the most common clan discipline in the game and already has a continue the action card > All cards that autorize this are a lot more costly than that. Like, a LOT. And very few autorize you to damage the blocker ; in fact the only one is the ambulance, that cost 1 pool and 1 action to equip and is burned if you are blocked again. Also, I would like you to put a little more time to write your sentence. Not everybody speak fluent english, and it's pretty difficult to understand what you say.

[/quote]Still, this card is way more powerful than any other "continue your action" card that I know of. You get to put someone in torpor and you continue to act, unconditionaly. It hose blocking big time, without doing anything against other defenses, like bloating or redirect. So this would will just kill wall deck, nothing more.[/quote] Most wall decks have combat and/or bounce, you seem to think sending the opposing minion is a forgone conclusion. Potence is weak against range and fortitude which is the most common combats for wall decks.

And with inferior potence and superior vissicitude ? It may be a potence card, but it does not mean it's reserved to potence combat. And even potence combat can go at close range with slam or help from other discipline, or simply throw sewer lid and fences until you go to torpor. Additionnaly, the problem of this card that it reward you even more when things already do well for you. That, and being incredibly underpriced by every possible standards. The only drawback of the card is that it do only one thing, while being readily recyclable in wrong circumstances !

The card makes bruise and bleed more feasible. It gives wall decks a harder time, for sure, but so does Form of Mist or its equivalents, and so does combat in general (in a different way). (And anyway: why are people so concerned to defend wall decks?) I like the card, and I disagree with the suggestion that it's too powerful: sending someone to torpor is not a trivial task. That said, I could see making it a dual discipline card - maybe or .

> DeathInABottle wrote: > I like the card, and I disagree with the suggestion that it's too powerful: sending someone to torpor is not a trivial task. > Let's take a quick example : a lasombra deck. Govern + conditionning to bleed, Entombment to put in torpor, this card to still do the 6 pool damage. It look mighty hard, does it ? Since the inferior level is already very playable, it can happen with as a backup plan to every combat type that torpor people. Yes, you won't be able to do it to every block, but there is a lot of combination to put people in torpor, most of them immune to a significant part of the counter measures. And, then again, Bruise and bleed does not need this at all. They will perform better when they are already winning, or at least while theirs plan work, but they will still do crap if the opponent out-combat them, or simply does not block.

Guys, continuing the action doesn't mean it can't be blocked again... I'd add a "the action continues at -2 stealth" clause to make sure there are no abuses though. Let's say that when you fight a guy to death, it gets noticed. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > Guys, continuing the action doesn't mean it can't be blocked again... > > I'd add a "the action continues at -2 stealth" clause to make sure there are no abuses though. Let's say that when you fight a guy to death, it gets noticed. > I like that.

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > Shard wrote: > > I can only think of 5 actions a vampire in torpor is allowed to take. > > On any of those, either the action fails with no combat or you are diablerized. > > All other actions would fizzle since they cannot be taken in torpor. > > > Well, it's better to precise that you must be ready to play the card. It's alway better to avoid confusion or misunderstanding. > > Still, this card is way more powerful than any other "continue your action" card that I know of. You get to put someone in torpor and you continue to act, unconditionaly. It hose blocking big time, without doing anything against other defenses, like bloating or redirect. So this would will just kill wall deck, nothing more. > Putting someone into torpor is unconditionally ? It's huge condition, unconditional is form of mist. I call bullshit on you. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

Strike: Combat Ends and Dodge both deal with Entombment. Prevention deals with many other forms of combat. Overcoming those things is not easy, and certainly not easier than playing stealth! You could just play Govern + Conditioning + two stealth cards and avoid combat entirely. This at least opens up new strategies and gives a reason to include more combat in a deck.

> DeathInABottle wrote: > Strike: Combat Ends and Dodge both deal with Entombment. Prevention deals with many other forms of combat. Overcoming those things is not easy, and certainly not easier than playing stealth! You could just play Govern + Conditioning + two stealth cards and avoid combat entirely. This at least opens up new strategies and gives a reason to include more combat in a deck. > You are wrong on two level for me. First, if your bruise and bleed is either unable to torpor people or unable to know before hand if he is likely to torpor his ennemy, the deck is pretty much wallpaper. Even in the case of a surprise, you can play the card at inf to cycle. Second, it does not open new strategy at all. If yoiu are blocked abnd torporize vampires with a bruiose and bleed, you are pretty much in optimum position already, since that's more or the less the plan. Bruise and bleed mostly have problem when either the prey ignore your vampire and bloat or redirect everything, or when you attack a deck than counter your combat in hardcore way. How in hell this card help thoses situation ? I believe this card is really underpriced, and will not halp the decks it's intended to help ; it may, however, make unexpected deck overpowered.

> Ohlmann wrote: > First, if your bruise and bleed is either unable to torpor people or unable to know before hand if he is likely to torpor his ennemy, the deck is pretty much wallpaper. Even in the case of a surprise, you can play the card at inf to cycle. > By "the deck is wallpaper", do you mean that the bruise and bleed predator is in a very difficult spot because he'll have a hard time dealing with his damage preventing prey? Sure. But so what? There's always a deck type to counter your deck type. If the predator played stealth bleed and his prey played dedicated intercept, the predator would be similarly screwed. That's how the game works. This card isn't intended to deal with all situations; it's intended to give decks - probably those that lack stealth - a way of dealing with foolish blockers, or chump blockers. As to the point about being able to cycle the card - I just don't see that as a problem. Cards designed to help combat decks *should* be easily cyclable, because otherwise the smart combat deck builder won't include them. > Ohlmann wrote: > Second, it does not open new strategy at all. If yoiu are blocked abnd torporize vampires with a bruiose and bleed, you are pretty much in optimum position already, since that's more or the less the plan. > You're right: it doesn't open up a new strategy - it just helps an old one. Like most cards do. > Ohlmann wrote: > Bruise and bleed mostly have problem when either the prey ignore your vampire and bloat or redirect everything, or when you attack a deck than counter your combat in hardcore way. How in hell this card help thoses situation ? > It doesn't. Does it have to? > Ohlmann wrote: > I believe this card is really underpriced, and will not halp the decks it's intended to help ; it may, however, make unexpected deck overpowered. > It's probably underpriced, and it might help unexpected deck types. (For instance, I could see this being a boon to weenie Horseshoe decks. I think that would be cool.) Both of those questions could be answered in playtesting.

> DeathInABottle wrote: > You're right: it doesn't open up a new strategy - it just helps an old one. Like most cards do. > It does not help it that much either. The bruise'n'bleed that actually happen to torporize the blocker does not need help. The one who is in trouble is the one who have every bleed redirected or "lose" every combat (in the sense "does do significant damage". For the rest, I will not try to punch through the wall of your stubborness. It is extremely underpriced compared to semblables card, it's extremely easy to see (ust look at momentary delay or torrent ...). If the others card are that much more costly and still see some play for at least some of them, maybe that a way lower cost one is not exactly a good idea ?

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > DeathInABottle wrote: > > You're right: it doesn't open up a new strategy - it just helps an old one. Like most cards do. > > > It does not help it that much either. The bruise'n'bleed that actually happen to torporize the blocker does not need help. The one who is in trouble is the one who have every bleed redirected or "lose" every combat (in the sense "does do significant damage". > > For the rest, I will not try to punch through the wall of your stubborness. It is extremely underpriced compared to semblables card, it's extremely easy to see (ust look at momentary delay or torrent ...). If the others card are that much more costly and still see some play for at least some of them, maybe that a way lower cost one is not exactly a good idea ? > Blood cost is not the only cost: torporizing a vampire requires very particular conditions. Overcoming S:CE requires Grapple, for instance, or Psyche; overcoming prevent requires unpreventable damage; and simply overcoming lots of blood requires multiple strikes, presses, and so on. In addition, the predator must be able to deal with hitback. I don't know about your meta, but in mine, where combat is heavy, this is all *very* difficult to deal with - in other words, very *costly*. *Much* less so than the simple one blood cost of Form of Mist, and probably on par with the two blood cost of Torrent (depending on the meta).

> Shard wrote: > Speedbump:modifier: > > If the blocking minion not ready after resulting combat, the action continues as if unblocked > > playable when blocking minion leaves the ready region > > continue the action > Extremely problematic with the current rulings which allow True Brujah to: 1. Domain of Evernight + Outside the Hourglass, and now continue the action 2. Outside the Hourglass (at "close" range) + Outside the Hourglass (dodge with a maneuver) + Disarm (since you inflicted more damage at "close" range), followed optionally be a Decapitate, and now the action continues as well if you were blocked? pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> echiang wrote: > > > Shard wrote: > > Speedbump:modifier: > > > > If the blocking minion not ready after resulting combat, the action continues as if unblocked > > > > playable when blocking minion leaves the ready region > > > > continue the action > > > Extremely problematic with the current rulings which allow True Brujah to: > > 1. Domain of Evernight + Outside the Hourglass, and now continue the action > > 2. Outside the Hourglass (at "close" range) + Outside the Hourglass (dodge with a maneuver) + Disarm (since you inflicted more damage at "close" range), followed optionally be a Decapitate, and now the action continues as well if you were blocked? > It doesn't entirely address the problem, but what about adding on another discipline? Speedbump Cardtype: Action Modifier Discipline: Potence and Fortitude Only usable after a combat between the acting minion you control and a blocking minion; not usable by a vampire being burned or going into torpor. If the blocking minion is not ready, the action continues as if unblocked at -2 stealth. As above, but without the -2 stealth. I'd be more interested in seeing a different, weaker effect entirely at , but I'm not sure what would work.

Much better than the original version for me since this one have in my opinion a significant cost, even if still undercosted. A possible inferior / superior level : [pot][for] If you have inflicted more damage than your opponent, untap this vampire. Only one Speedbump at (inferior/superior) can be played by a vampire each turn. I have an hard time to say if it's more or less powerful than the "continue action" way. But the concept of an "inverted" freak drive seem useful.

> Ohlmann wrote: > Much better than the original version for me since this one have in my opinion a significant cost, even if still undercosted. > > A possible inferior / superior level : > > [pot][for] If you have inflicted more damage than your opponent, untap this vampire. Only one Speedbump at (inferior/superior) can be played by a vampire each turn. > > I have an hard time to say if it's more or less powerful than the "continue action" way. But the concept of an "inverted" freak drive seem useful. > Great idea. I don't know that you would need the "if you have inflicted more damage" qualifier, though, since you've already put the opposing vampire in torpor or killed the opposing ally. So: Speedbump Cardtype: Action Modifier Discipline: Potence and Fortitude Only usable after a combat between an acting vampire you control and a blocking minion; not usable by a vampire being burned or going into torpor. Untap this vampire. Only one Speedbump at (inferior/superior) can be played by a vampire each turn. If the blocking minion is not ready, the action continues as if unblocked at -2 stealth.

After a quick search... There are few vampires that would use this card instead of: a) just more stealth - Nos/!Nos - Gan - Las - BBs - Rav b) make sure you can't block the original action first - Gio - Las - Ven/!Ven c) might as well just use Freak Drive - Gar - BBs - Ven/!Ven So I can't see this card really benefitting any clan that actually needs a boost to their Bruise & Bash techniques. The main Clans who need this kind of bump are the Brujahs & Osebos (to get them away from just Osebo Wall and No Secrets from Cesewayo). So it seems that it should probably be a Celerity card with a cost to untap at inferior and a continue the action at double-superior. Maybe with a +1 stealth outferior. Speedbump Action Modifier 1 blood +1 stealth Only usable after a combat between an acting vampire you control and a blocking minion; not usable by a vampire being burned or going into torpor. Untap this vampire. Only one Speedbump at (inferior/superior) can be played by a vampire each turn. As above, and if the blocking minion is not ready the action continues as if unblocked. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

It was intended to make sure your rush hit the right target. Other applications were just a bonus.

Changes to the card

> Shard wrote: > Changes to the card > Since the new version does not cancel combat end, it's for me somewhat underpriced but not too scandalous.

Wow, and Form of Mist isn't underpriced for you ? It's both best combat defense (s:ce) and continue action. This require heavy conditions and isn't s:ce/dodge by itself. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Shard wrote: > Changes to the card > Can you just post the next edition rather than editing the first 2 whole pages of posts back? Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Lech wrote: > Wow, and Form of Mist isn't underpriced for you ? It's both best combat defense (s:ce) and continue action. This require heavy conditions and isn't s:ce/dodge by itself. > An action continued by form of mist is very likely to not be better that the same action unblocked ; you may have done some damage, but not enough to torporize, and ut's quite contrived to do so An action continued by this card is actually better than the same action unblocked : you get your action and you have torporized someone. So, yes, Form of mist is really less powerful than this by a long shot. Also, Form of mist require the superior level of an uncommon combat discipline. While useful, this kind of effect is far better associated with big bleed or powerful referendum. Notice that potence is commonly associated with Dominate and presence, among others things. And, yes, form of mist may be a bit undercosted, but the fact that a powerful and undercosted card exist does not mean that adding more card similary undercosted is a good idea - if form of mist was a domination combat card, thing would be very different, to take a caricatural example.

Its +1 stealth on the action, so it is better than action unblocked, +1 stealth and tapped minion. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Lech wrote: > Its +1 stealth on the action, so it is better than action unblocked, +1 stealth and tapped minion. > Well, yes, like Faceless night with a bit more tapping power and risk. Not exactly that much better, and much worse than actually have the blocker tapped and in torpor.

Wait wait wait, to have blocker actually blocked and in torpor you have to spend resources on it. You are acting like 'sending someone into torpor is easy task'. It is not. It's most fo times hard and resource intensive and most of all RISKY. The action that continue is still at the same stealth and anyone can block it. To do it reliably, you have to set range, play immortal and hope for DI on card that cancel it or have DI2 in play, hit must be unprevented, lose less blood on heal than opponent, play disarm, play this card. To continue action with protean you can just play form of mist and you have more space in deck to make the action count (like, more space for conditioning+govern). It might be more powerful if it works, but opportunity cost to play this card is HUGE, unlike form of mist that have trivial opportunity cost(have to be in combat, no immortal grapple/nsa trio sometimes/thoughts betrayed). Form of Mist provide you with unconditional dodge at inferior and combat end on superior in ANY COMBAT, not just when the minion is acting. It's nearly RISK FREE. Also, you can have the blocking minion in torpor and continue the action with form of mist too (with +1 stealth!). Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Wait wait wait, to have blocker actually blocked and in torpor you have to spend resources on it. You are acting like 'sending someone into torpor is easy task'. It is not. It's most fo times hard and resource intensive and most of all RISKY. > It's not, really. Torping someone's minion, assuming he plays a deck that can actually win, is often easier than landing a bleed for 3 on the right target. Unfortunately a LOT of people still think that blowing minions up makes you win even though they are being proven wrong time and time again. Against those (bad) decks, sure torping someone takes some minor effort. > Form of Mist provide you with unconditional dodge at inferior > Unconditional Dodge... wah? Like that's something amazing and special... Do conditional dodges even exist? > and combat end on superior in ANY COMBAT, not just when the minion is acting. > You mean like Majesty, Oubliette, No Trace, Blissfull Agony,.... etc. etc. etc. Heck even dominate has a pseudo combat ends (that actually works when grappled). > It's nearly RISK FREE. > Ye. Until someone plays a Grapple. Or Psyche! Or just rushes again. Or played, like, a 2nd Trad and can just try to block with the same minion again but this time you're SoL because you can't play another FoM. > Also, you can have the blocking minion in torpor and continue the action with form of mist too (with +1 stealth!). > How does that work? Form of Mist is a strike. I can't actually even imagine a situation where you act, you get blocked, you play Form of Must, the opposing guy somehow goes to torpor and you get to continue... Also, Form of Mist sits on a pretty lackluster disciple, that is in-clan for exactly one clan with disciplines that are not known for ousting people fast.

> Shard wrote: > > > Shard wrote: > > Unstoppable Force > > 2 > > If the blocking minion not ready after resulting combat, the action continues at -2 stealth. > > > > Cancel a card that cancels the action or combat as it is played > > This now seems overcosted - especially since the acting minion has probably expended resources in taking the action and getting the blocker to torpor (at least losing one blood to hitback). I also don't understand what the second part means: what cards "cancel combat" aside from Alpha Glint? Basically, aside from the discipline change - and here I agree that is fine - I don't see what makes this better than the version I posted earlier.

It cancels Obedience and like cards.

> Izaak wrote: > > > Wait wait wait, to have blocker actually blocked and in torpor you have to spend resources on it. You are acting like 'sending someone into torpor is easy task'. It is not. It's most fo times hard and resource intensive and most of all RISKY. > > > It's not, really. > > Torping someone's minion, assuming he plays a deck that can actually win, is often easier than landing a bleed for 3 on the right target. > > Unfortunately a LOT of people still think that blowing minions up makes you win even though they are being proven wrong time and time again. Against those (bad) decks, sure torping someone takes some minor effort. > This card wouldn't help those bad decks anyway. It's hard to play at all. > Izaak wrote: > > > Form of Mist provide you with unconditional dodge at inferior > > > Unconditional Dodge... wah? Like that's something amazing and special... Do conditional dodges even exist? > Yes, and it's played. Check out OBE/AUS card. Dodge is helpful, it's not s:ce, but with s:ce on superior it's quite versatile (and often better played as dodge, especially if you sport carrion crows or other env. damage. > Izaak wrote: > > > and combat end on superior in ANY COMBAT, not just when the minion is acting. > > > You mean like Majesty, Oubliette, No Trace, Blissfull Agony,.... etc. etc. etc. Heck even dominate has a pseudo combat ends (that actually works when grappled). > Does it make it any less powerful ? This card would be played a lot, but have even better s:ce. > Izaak wrote: > > > It's nearly RISK FREE. > > > Ye. Until someone plays a Grapple. Or Psyche! Or just rushes again. Or played, like, a 2nd Trad and can just try to block with the same minion again but this time you're SoL because you can't play another FoM. > Like any s:ce. It's not like every deck packs those cards and that they are that strong in every meta. Lol, you know they can't block you again with second tradition, right ? I don't know where you play, but i want to play there. > Izaak wrote: > > > Also, you can have the blocking minion in torpor and continue the action with form of mist too (with +1 stealth!). > > > How does that work? Form of Mist is a strike. I can't actually even imagine a situation where you act, you get blocked, you play Form of Must, the opposing guy somehow goes to torpor and you get to continue... > > Also, Form of Mist sits on a pretty lackluster disciple, that is in-clan for exactly one clan with disciplines that are not known for ousting people fast. > Pursuit or any other additional, prevent or even no prevent, form of mist disarm, 3 cards. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> This card wouldn't help those bad decks anyway. It's hard to play at all. > Actually... it would. You rush, they throw up a chump blocker, you get to torp 2 guys. Let's make bad decks even better at destroying other people's game and make someone else win! > Yes, and it's played. Check out OBE/AUS card. Dodge is helpful, it's not s:ce, but with s:ce on superior it's quite versatile (and often better played as dodge, especially if you sport carrion crows or other env. damage. > Oh right. Because Anesthetic Touch at outferior is only usable at close and EVERY other dodge card is just "dodge" unconditional dodge is now suddenly an amazing boon. Also, people play Anestethic Touch at auspex? Really? > Does it make it any less powerful ? This card would be played a lot, but have even better s:ce. > If you'd have an argument about Earth Meld you might be on about something remotely reasonable, but really... SC:E and continues on protean? Who cares.. it's been there since Jyhad and Protean isn't exactly ripping up the TWDA is it? > Like any s:ce. It's not like every deck packs those cards and that they are that strong in every meta. > Exactly. Therefore FoM isn't inherently a lot stronger than, say Majesty. In fact, given the context of disciplines Majesty comes with I'd say Majesty is a LOT stronger than FoM, but hey what do I know? > Lol, you know they can't block you again with second tradition, right ? I don't know where you play, but i want to play there. > Ye I'm well aware of that. I originally had "a Wake" there, but then realized you'd pull the 'HAHA +1 STEALTH' card so I changed it to 2nd Trad. My mistake of course. As for where I play... well, you're welcome to join. I was in Poland a few weeks ago, had a blast. > Pursuit or any other additional, prevent or even no prevent, form of mist disarm, 3 cards. > I see. People actually play silly combo's like that where you play? (Not accounting for the fact that a whole 11 vampires in the entire game have PRO cel pot) Do they win games?

> Izaak wrote: > > > This card wouldn't help those bad decks anyway. It's hard to play at all. > > > Actually... it would. You rush, they throw up a chump blocker, you get to torp 2 guys. Let's make bad decks even better at destroying other people's game and make someone else win! > Yeah, let them pack in additional cards that increase the combo and make it less consistent! And waste blood too, i am all for it. > Izaak wrote: > > > Yes, and it's played. Check out OBE/AUS card. Dodge is helpful, it's not s:ce, but with s:ce on superior it's quite versatile (and often better played as dodge, especially if you sport carrion crows or other env. damage. > > > Oh right. Because Anesthetic Touch at outferior is only usable at close and EVERY other dodge card is just "dodge" unconditional dodge is now suddenly an amazing boon. Also, people play Anestethic Touch at auspex? Really? > Yeah, most often in saulot decks, it's not that bad. Also, there are other dodges with drawbacks, like costing blood or dnr or just in first round. > Izaak wrote: > > > Does it make it any less powerful ? This card would be played a lot, but have even better s:ce. > > > If you'd have an argument about Earth Meld you might be on about something remotely reasonable, but really... SC:E and continues on protean? Who cares.. it's been there since Jyhad and Protean isn't exactly ripping up the TWDA is it? > Just 46 decks have it, it's not like it's card that isn't used. > Izaak wrote: > > > Like any s:ce. It's not like every deck packs those cards and that they are that strong in every meta. > > > Exactly. Therefore FoM isn't inherently a lot stronger than, say Majesty. In fact, given the context of disciplines Majesty comes with I'd say Majesty is a LOT stronger than FoM, but hey what do I know? > Majesty is also one of the strongest cards in the game, but given that some minions have also ... Back to the form of mist, it is about the power level of majesty, which means it's very good card. > Izaak wrote: > > > Lol, you know they can't block you again with second tradition, right ? I don't know where you play, but i want to play there. > > > Ye I'm well aware of that. I originally had "a Wake" there, but then realized you'd pull the 'HAHA +1 STEALTH' card so I changed it to 2nd Trad. My mistake of course. > As for where I play... well, you're welcome to join. I was in Poland a few weeks ago, had a blast. > If i'll be in Netherlands, i'll try to play vtes for sure. > Izaak wrote: > > > Pursuit or any other additional, prevent or even no prevent, form of mist disarm, 3 cards. > > > I see. People actually play silly combo's like that where you play? (Not accounting for the fact that a whole 11 vampires in the entire game have PRO cel pot) Do they win games? > Not this, but Karsh isn't that bad for it. And you need just for it (shadow of the wolf give additional strike) tbc. Well, i won 3 out of 4 games this week with my deck (the last game was won by deck based on Karsh with form of mist and additional strikes, it lacked disarms, but i'm sure they would fit in). Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.