Name: Pin the Fly
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Potence
[pot] Only usable at the end of a round of combat in which this vampire successfully inflicted more damage at close range with a melee weapon than the opposing vampire. Not usable by a vampire being burned or going into torpor. Burn that melee weapon to put this card on the opposing vampire. The vampire with this card doesn't untap as normal. Any minion may burn this card as a +1 stealth action.
[POT] As above, and send that vampire into torpor.
A variation on Disarm. It costs an unbroken melee weapon (careful with that WWS) to immobilize a vampire. I didn't want it to do the "send to torpor" effect at
inferior to leave its utility to Disarm.
Thoughts? Comments?
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
I love the idea of helping melee weapon combat, it's currently pretty weak. Still, the cost is pretty high and this card can't be played too often. I would actually make a completely different inferior level that don't burn weapon and a superior level that do, maybe ?
Also, it's a pentex subvertion like effect : the vampire don't act until another minion rescue him. This mean also that the card is much more precious against big cap than against small cap.
As a variation on the idea, I would replace the superior level with 'burn the vampire at its controller minion phase' : the idea is that the vampire is pined to the sun and will burn if not rescued. May need another clause to avoid it being too overpowered (or be another card, more difficult to play)
My first thought is that I would try to abuse it with small-cap potence vampires, permaintercept & walking sticks to lock down opponents.
I think it would do this better compared to disarm since it takes a lot of actions away with both the untap and the action required to burn.
Maybe replacing the "no untap" part by "can't block and can't do action other than unpinning itself" ? Since it's not a wooden stake, the vampire *should* be somewhat able to unpin itself I believe.
Also, unlike the current formulation it would not allow Guard dog or wake with evening freshness that seem a bit silly. "I am pined to the ground with a 3-meter pillar, but if my dog tell me I can totally intercept peoples".
> Ohlmann wrote:
> Also, unlike the current formulation it would not allow Guard dog or wake with evening freshness that seem a bit silly. "I am pined to the ground with a 3-meter pillar, but if my dog tell me I can totally intercept peoples".
>
Role playing arguments are out of consideration. See Memory of Mortality on a Great Beast, a Sensory Deprived vampire that can wake etc.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> Role playing arguments are out of consideration. See Memory of Mortality on a Great Beast, a Sensory Deprived vampire that can wake etc.
>
I can understand that gameplay prime, but I believe strongly that mecanism that make sense are way better.
In gameplay terms, the difference between the two formulation (can't untap vs can't block or act except removing) is that the second one handicap the vampire a lot more but allow the vampire to unpin himself. Meaning that star decks and big cap deck are less hosed.
> Ankha wrote:
> Role playing arguments are out of consideration. See Memory of Mortality on a Great Beast, a Sensory Deprived vampire that can wake etc.
>
Once a card is 'finished', they're out of consideration. The card does what the card does, even if it means a snake-formed-from-blood is running round on a Sport Bike with an elephant following.
However, it's perfectly possible to include role-playing arguments into the design of a card. If there's a note in Clanbook Gangrel, there's no reason not to put "This card costs Gangrel an additional blood" into some card text, or "Cannot be played by a Cardinal or Regent", or whatever. Similarly, you can rethink the implementation so that silly things don't happen - perhaps now it's a reaction, not a combat card, most of the allies-who-are-pseudo-vampires silliness doen't happen, or whatever else.
Obviously, you need to strike a balance - you don't want cards covered in lines and lines of 'fun' corner-cases. But a little perk or drawback here or there is great, and thinking about the role-playing implications of a card during design is totally legitimate. After all, if you can think of two alternative designs for a card, both are great cards, and one has more role-playing flavour, there's little reason not to pick it.
A good card, but is the right discipline for it? As a card I am afraid it is not worth losing the access to Immortal Grapple. How about making it a card? Or maybe even with a beefed-up effect?
Name: Pin the Fly
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Celerity & Potence
[pot] Only usable at the end of a round of combat in which this vampire successfully inflicted more damage at close range with a melee weapon than the opposing vampire. Not usable by a vampire being burned or going into torpor. Burn that melee weapon to put this card on the opposing vampire. The vampire with this card doesn't untap as normal. Any minion may burn this card as a +1 stealth action.
[cel][pot] As above, and send that vampire into torpor.
[CEL][POT] As above, and the action to burn this card does not get +1 stealth.
EDIT: we should also get rid of the "at close range" constraint. It is already almost implied by the melee weapon + more damage constraints, and pinning the other guy to the wall with a thrown dagger is just too awesome to be missed
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > Role playing arguments are out of consideration. See Memory of Mortality on a Great Beast, a Sensory Deprived vampire that can wake etc.
> >
> Once a card is 'finished', they're out of consideration. The card does what the card does, even if it means a snake-formed-from-blood is running round on a Sport Bike with an elephant following.
>
> However, it's perfectly possible to include role-playing arguments into the design of a card. <snip>
>
There's no contradiction. Using role playing background is fine, but indicating that such or such effect is "illogical" in some cases is not. The dog "illogical" example is not a good argument.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> There's no contradiction. Using role playing background is fine, but indicating that such or such effect is "illogical" in some cases is not. The dog "illogical" example is not a good argument.
>
Well, as I see it, it's not enough of an argument to scrap the card completely. But it's a bad point. My original post were proposing the mecanism mainly as a way for the vampire to unpin itself, avoiding a complete lock if stacked and in combination with pentex subversion.
Also, is there rule to propose card idea here ?
> Ohlmann wrote:
> My original post were proposing the mecanism mainly as a way for the vampire to unpin itself, avoiding a complete lock if stacked and in combination with pentex subversion.
>
2 words: crosstable help. Since it is a minion card, it takes an Eagle Sight to block a crosstable attempt to burn the card, doesn't it?
> Ankha wrote:
> Thoughts? Comments?
>
My main concern is that I wonder whether the effort is, perhaps, mis-guided. POT doesn't tend to play melee weapons because Immortal Grapple won't work. I'm not 100% convinced that untap-prevention is enough to get over the loss of Immortal Grapple.
And also if you have POT, most decks will just use combat cards instead of melee weapons - except Weighted Walking Stick. (Equip actions are a hassle if you lack untap, as many combat decks do. Concealed/Disguised is useful but annoying. Pier 13 and friends are slow etc.) At which point is this mostly just a card that makes Weighted Walking Stick-based combat better?
> Ankha wrote:
> There's no contradiction. Using role playing background is fine, but indicating that such or such effect is "illogical" in some cases is not. The dog "illogical" example is not a good argument.
>
It's just saying "I'd prefer this card didn't allow this corner-case, because I like real-ish interactions wherever possible." Which, as a statement of personal preference, is a perfectly reasonable argument.
> Ohlmann wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > There's no contradiction. Using role playing background is fine, but indicating that such or such effect is "illogical" in some cases is not. The dog "illogical" example is not a good argument.
> >
> Well, as I see it, it's not enough of an argument to scrap the card completely. But it's a bad point. My original post were proposing the mecanism mainly as a way for the vampire to unpin itself, avoiding a complete lock if stacked and in combination with pentex subversion.
>
> Also, is there rule to propose card idea here ?
>
You can, but as a variation. If you want to suggest another card, it's easier to create a new post otherwise both versions will mix up, ending in a confusing thread.
> Non-existant user wrote:
>
> > Ohlmann wrote:
> > My original post were proposing the mecanism mainly as a way for the vampire to unpin itself, avoiding a complete lock if stacked and in combination with pentex subversion.
> >
> 2 words: crosstable help. Since it is a minion card, it takes an Eagle Sight to block a crosstable attempt to burn the card, doesn't it?
>
Correct. Minion cards are controlled (by default) by the minion it is on.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
> And also if you have POT, most decks will just use combat cards instead of melee weapons - except Weighted Walking Stick. (Equip actions are a hassle if you lack untap, as many combat decks do. Concealed/Disguised is useful but annoying. Pier 13 and friends are slow etc.) At which point is this mostly just a card that makes Weighted Walking Stick-based combat better?
>
Yeah, that's a point that concerns me. The trouble is that melee weapons are not worth the effort getting them. And if really needed, WWS does the trick.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > jamesatzephyr wrote:
> > And also if you have POT, most decks will just use combat cards instead of melee weapons - except Weighted Walking Stick. (Equip actions are a hassle if you lack untap, as many combat decks do. Concealed/Disguised is useful but annoying. Pier 13 and friends are slow etc.) At which point is this mostly just a card that makes Weighted Walking Stick-based combat better?
> >
> Yeah, that's a point that concerns me. The trouble is that melee weapons are not worth the effort getting them. And if really needed, WWS does the trick.
>
This card don't really improve power level of melee cards, it's just another wallpaper.
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
Ankha, in fact, with a little thought, I think this card is off for two reason.
* Potence does not really need any kind of combat card. This is an alternative to disarm, yes, but it's still pretty much the same effect in fact (IE you loose one or two action to get back your vampire)
* Melee weapon need mainly to be less hosed by any other combat. It need a way to fight back maneuver, combat end, dodge, and the huge cost of weapon equiping. Today, only Psyche and psychic tracking are in this departement, work with anything else, and seem not to be enough.
> Non-existant user wrote:
> Just realizing: there is no reason to restrict the inferior effect to vampires only, it can work on any minion.
>
Maybe burning ally if like I tend to believe ally are a bit powerful ? Again, it's part RP consideration, part balance consideration. Not unlike "blood to water" and "liquefy the coil" that burn ally instead of burning 3 life.
> Ohlmann wrote:
> * Melee weapon need mainly to be less hosed by any other combat. It need a way to fight back maneuver, combat end, dodge, and the huge cost of weapon equiping. Today, only Psyche and psychic tracking are in this departement, work with anything else, and seem not to be enough.
>
Cards already exist that make melee weapons awesome (or at least strong). The real trouble is noone is willing to spend that action getting a melee weapon in the first place.
Wouldn't it be better to ease the access to melee weapons?
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Well, first of all, why would anyone use concealed for melee weapon instead of .44 ? And cards for melee weapons are not very strong.
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
Well, Concelead work pretty well but need a combos and even if you have both part you need to enter combat in addition. That's why it jam hand easily.
I would see two way to help with that :
* an action that let you equip a weapon and in the same action rush / bleed someone. Kind of a bum's rush with "equip a weapon before combat" instead of "have a free maneuver". The blocked case is somewhat problematic (maybe "equip a weapon before any combat until the end of the action" ?). You still need the combos, but the equiping card is still useful without weapon and you don't need to enter combat in addition to have the combo
* a concealed that doesn't need you to have the weapon, like a vast wealth in combat card. Maybe something with the research area, I.E. you first play some card to fill the research area with melee weapon, and then you take card from it with another battle card.
Also, Angel of Berlin is a weapon support that work well and can be a third way for that.
> Ohlmann wrote:
> * an action that let you equip a weapon and in the same action rush / bleed someone. Kind of a bum's rush with "equip a weapon before combat" instead of "have a free maneuver". The blocked case is somewhat problematic (maybe "equip a weapon before any combat until the end of the action" ?). You still need the combos, but the equiping card is still useful without weapon and you don't need to enter combat in addition to have the combo
>
> * a concealed that doesn't need you to have the weapon, like a vast wealth in combat card. Maybe something with the research area, I.E. you first play some card to fill the research area with melee weapon, and then you take card from it with another battle card.
>
I like both of these ideas quite a bit. Mind working them up as official "new cards" in the forum?
> Ohlmann wrote:
> Well, Concelead work pretty well but need a combos and even if you have both part you need to enter combat in addition. That's why it jam hand easily.
>
> I would see two way to help with that :
>
> * an action that let you equip a weapon and in the same action rush / bleed someone. Kind of a bum's rush with "equip a weapon before combat" instead of "have a free maneuver". The blocked case is somewhat problematic (maybe "equip a weapon before any combat until the end of the action" ?). You still need the combos, but the equiping card is still useful without weapon and you don't need to enter combat in addition to have the combo
>
> * a concealed that doesn't need you to have the weapon, like a vast wealth in combat card. Maybe something with the research area, I.E. you first play some card to fill the research area with melee weapon, and then you take card from it with another battle card.
>
I was thinking about the second option, worth another post I guess.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Amenophobis wrote:
> Well, your post wormed itself into the wrong forum, it seems...
>
Again? <sigh>
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> Cards already exist that make melee weapons awesome (or at least strong). The real trouble is noone is willing to spend that action getting a melee weapon in the first place.
>
Well, for intercept/combat decks, they partly helped that with Baseball Bat (and even earlier you got Weighted Walking Stick).
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
They partially do, but those are still hosed by ranged combat and IG combat and s:ce and prevention. Which means most often used combat.
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.