On Liquidation 5. "problematic card"

This is the fifth thread of the discussions about cards some people see as problematic. As this is a collection of arguments for keeping the card as it is (PRO card) or changing it in whatever way (CONTRA card). It would be most useful, if you could write above your entry, if your arguments are PRO or CONTRA the card as it is to attain best clarity of what speaks in favor of the card and what does not. After 7 days of discussion I will initialize a poll about that specific card, in which the alternatives can be found. Liquidation [Tenth:A/B] Cardtype: Master Master. Do not replace until your discard phase. Burn seven cards from the top of your library to gain 3 pool. UNSURE I think the game mechanic of Liquidation is okay. You pay seven cards to get pool. Changes ar given that your most important card is among the seven. Problems really just evolve because the good synergy this card has with recursion tech. I think the three pool are too high for the price. Think about Ascension, that gives you 1 pool for 1 master phase and master card. Liquidation could be one added pool (so two) for an added cost to play (burn cards). So three pool is one pool too good IMHO. But as I don't like changing cards very much I'd keep it, as it is not that big difference. Still there is the recursion-problem. Baron of Frankfurt

No problem with It. It is it's interaction with ashurs that is the problem

If burning cards are supposed to be a cost for playing the card, why not remove the cards from the game instead? Instant solution to recursion problems and three pool seems alright. Sadly that means less cards for me to eat with my trochomancy deck...

PRO the cards is good like it is

PRO It's fine. For example dreams of the sphinx is vastly superior to this but no one is complaining. Lidingö Scourge

Liquidation is totally fine. It's competitive in combination with Imbued (Convictions), Sudario and Ashur Tablets but other than that it really doesn't (and shouldn't) see play.

It is completely fine.

PRO it's a good and balanced card

We just need to ban Ashurs and imbued. NC Russia

PRO & CON I don't like the card because its drawback isn't a real disavantage. If one plays Liquidation, it's certain it has some recursion effects in order to take advantage of it. I've never seen a deck where Liquidation would be played without Ashur or Sudario... This being said, the card itself isn't that wrong, it's the recursion cards that may be a trouble. It could be a 2 pool gain and be still playable. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Dreams is 2 poolgain and can be used for extra cards (controlled Liquidation, basically) and crypt acceleration. This is all somewhat offset by the fact that it's unique, but I feel Dreams is ALREADY superior to Liquidation. Making it 2 pool would make this a non-discussion.

Would this poll reflects the discussion correctly? a) No change. b) Let the 7 cards go out of the game. c) Gain only 2 pool. d) Ban the card. Baron of Frankfurt

e)Ban Anthelios

Let the 7 cards go out of the game. Ban Anthelios. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Shard wrote: > e)Ban Anthelios > Agreed, ban Anthelios (certainly top of my problematic card list)

Or you could start playing Uncoiling?

> Izaak wrote: > Or you could start playing Uncoiling? > Which, awkwardly, is random in its targets, while being targetable itself with relative ease. Anyway, I'm probably just in agreement with several other people here who may wish to propose Anthelios as a problematic card. Why? Because master card recursion is very, very strong. But obviously this isn't the thread for that discussion.

> During your discard phase, burn one other event at random > You play it. Anthelios dies. If there are multiple Events in play, sure it won't always get the one you want but it will always get at least one and is more than likely to get more. The hard part about Uncoiling is someone else getting to spend a discard phase action to give you your handsize back.

> Temporis wrote: > > > Shard wrote: > > e)Ban Anthelios > > > Agreed, ban Anthelios (certainly top of my problematic card list) > I just looked at the relevant thread in the Generic discussions (called Tournament experiences). Anthelios wasn't mentioned often in that thread as a problem so it didn't make it to the list. If there are some more chaps detesting Anthelios we should discuss that card too. Baron of Frankfurt

Anthelios at least have it's counters like fourth cycle or uncoiling. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

If you do polls about this I think they shouldn´t mention another card in their options. If you think "ban Anthelios" is the good option then the poll should be about Anthelios in the first place.