So here we go.
After we had a decent discussion about Villein now comes the poll. There were arguments against the card and for the card. Please read through those arguments and make your decision about wether and in what way the card should be changed in your opinion.
Villein [KoT:U, HttB:PGar2/PKia2/PSal2/PSam2]
Cardtype: Master
Master: trifle.
Put this card on a vampire you control and move 2 or more blood from that vampire to your pool. Minion Tap cards cost an additional pool. Villein costs an additional pool to play on this vampire.
The poll is up for three weeks from now on. Please tell everybody about it so we can get a most significant result out of a broad participation.
Please keep in mind that the result however is the opinion of all participants which does not mean it is that of all players.
Furthermore the outcome of this poll does not necessarily mean something changes or stay the same.
Baron of Frankfurt
Joscha,
I think you're suffering from the same problem we had in Australia with a Republic Referendum (technically Queen Elizabeth is the head of our Government). The Pro-Republic people were too busy trying to use the referendum to argue over which version of a Republic we should use that they lost the 'hard vote' because if people didn't like the version they voted against.
It would have been much simpler to have a: Change Villein vs Leave Villein and then follow it with a "Since people said we should Change Villein, here are the options for changing it..." I know you had the thread before, but if that came conclusively to a majority for Changing Villein, why have the option for "No Changes".
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
"Majority" on web forums is a strange notion. This will end with 100ish persons voting. It will represent the population of the people on vekn.net browsing the Expansion Sets and Card Ideas section and actually participating in polls.
Ask yourselves if these 100 people (or maybe 60 of them, if you're considering majority) represent well enough the VTES community.
@Juggernaut1981:
Till now, there are 54% against a change. Thats more than the number of people voted in favor of any change at all. Gonna get difficult, ift the percentage of people who voted against a change at all drops below 50%
> Tosh wrote:
> I wonder if this reflects the opinion of the vtes community outside this forum..
>
Wonder or not, I like the step-by-step approach.
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
-Friedrich Nietzsche
brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/
Out of 59 Votes (at the time of me posting this), 31% vote no change, & 28% votes for a variation of change. But thank you original poster, it is interesting watching the results as they update.
ps: I'd be curious to know how many Villeins you folks own, if it's not to personal a question. I have 6 Villeins myself and enough dusty minion taps to wallpaper my lounge room walls with.
Robyn and I have 39 Villein. We use Minion tap (Villeion Tap) as a proxy when we do our weekly playing. Everyone in our group does the same along with using Esteem (Esteemil Cog) pretty often.
I paid $70 for 7 Villein a while back because we needed enough for a multi-event week-end and did not want to worry about swapping them around.
Lately however, I have been using Blood Dolls in most of my decks instead of Villein.
David Tatu
V:EKN Scribe
> Tosh wrote:
> ps: I'd be curious to know how many Villeins you folks own, if it's not to personal a question. I have 6 Villeins myself and enough dusty minion taps to wallpaper my lounge room walls with.
>
Around 20+ from KoT boosters and HttB starters (at least 12 from the starters, maybe 8 more from the boosters and 2 from trade).
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Tosh wrote:
> ps: I'd be curious to know how many Villeins you folks own, if it's not to personal a question. I have 6 Villeins myself and enough dusty minion taps to wallpaper my lounge room walls with.
>
Yeah, I think I have more or less 20-25, I managed to get 7-9 from Kot boosters and mostly dealing them during the first month of the expansion release date for avoiding high prices(I always do like that with the cards I want of every expansion), and after that I simply both starters HttB (They are awesome with lots of quality cards).
> Tosh wrote:
> ps: I'd be curious to know how many Villeins you folks own, if it's not to personal a question. I have 6 Villeins myself and enough dusty minion taps to wallpaper my lounge room walls with.
>
I own 9 Villeins which are readily available. (Technically I could access another 16 if I opened my sealed HttB starter box but that's probably not going to happen).
I don't normally play Villein (or even Minion Tap) at all. I heavily prefer Blood Dolls & Vessels.
I currently have 10 decks built and I am only using Villein in one of them (which is a CREATE-A-CLAN deck to boot).
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> Joscha,
> I think you're suffering from the same problem we had in Australia with a Republic Referendum (technically Queen Elizabeth is the head of our Government). The Pro-Republic people were too busy trying to use the referendum to argue over which version of a Republic we should use that they lost the 'hard vote' because if people didn't like the version they voted against.
>
I have no problem with that. You can look if more people voted for any change whatever it may be or no change. That's enough for the first impression. I'm very interested in what way people would like to see the change.
If this would be a decisive referendum forcing the rules team to change something then you would be probably right. But this is more a gathering of information about how the communtity (the players who taking part at least) feels about this and the other cards.
By the way: I own 50 Villeins, 36 from HTTB-starters and 14 bought from varous sources or found in KoT-boosters (latter unfortunately were around 3). As I mentioned before this is not about availability but about how the card affects the game.
Baron of Frankfurt
> izi wrote:
> I would rly like to see Minion Tap back, let the people without villeins have some chance!
>
If you had 100 of each, which one would you use the most?
I'm having trouble playing any decks that have large vampires since I don't have any Villeins and can't afford to spend an extra 150 dollars per deck in addition to all the other cards I need to buy. So I use Minion Taps but since 2-3 of my friends use Villein in most decks, Minion Taps are risky.Can you either make Minion Taps usable again by taking away the Villein nerfing of them, or put lots and lots of Villeins in the next expansion? (Or put in lots of a new card that does the same thing as Minion Tap?)
> I'm having trouble playing any decks that have large vampires since I don't have any Villeins and can't afford to spend an extra 150 dollars per deck in addition to all the other cards I need to buy.
>
Or, ya know, you do what everyone else does. You find 6-7 Villeins on E-bay for $7-8 each ($50 total) and swap them between decks. Score!
> Tosh wrote:
> I wonder if this reflects the opinion of the vtes community outside this forum..
>
If players are aware of the existence of this forum and choose not to be part of the decision-making process, they have no one to blame but themselves.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017
> Izaak wrote:
>
> > I'm having trouble playing any decks that have large vampires since I don't have any Villeins and can't afford to spend an extra 150 dollars per deck in addition to all the other cards I need to buy.
> >
> Or, ya know, you do what everyone else does. You find 6-7 Villeins on E-bay for $7-8 each ($50 total) and swap them between decks. Score!
>
I hope you see how the prospect of this might scare away a lot of players.
Also, if you want say 10 villeins off ebay right now (yea, 6-7 might do, but let's say 10 because that's probably the max amount you would want in any deck) you'd not have to pay $7-8 each.
As of the ebay state right this minute you can buy it in the following way (if you want to save money)
* 2 villeins for $9.99 a piece + shipping $3.50 = $23.48
* 2 villeins for $13.50 a piece + shipping $2.50 = $29.50
* 6 villeins for $15.00 a piece + shipping $1.45 = $91.45
Total = $144.43
which is about ~$14.50 a piece. This is -not- a good thing for a staple card.
Of course, to be honest. Right now there is also an auction for a pack of 3 villeins being sold, so you could replace 3 of the above 10 villeins with this
* Pack 3 villeins for $16.50 + shipping $3.00
HOWEVER, this auction wont finish for another 1 day and 18 hours. So we actually wont know the final price for this pack until then. But lets assume that this lot might end at a total of $25 (including shipping) - which I feel might be a bit on the low end but still reasonable.
Then the total would be $124.43 which would be about ~$12.50 a piece. This is -still- not a price that is nice to have for a staple card. Telling new players that "you can just go on ebay and buy them" will scare them away.
Also, we want new and returning players. Right? New and returning players are _good_ for the game. The current ebay prices are the prices we get with the current supply and demand. If we add new and returning players into the mix the demand _will_ rise, the supply will not (unless CCP suddenly starts printing vtes again). As pretty much anyone can tell you, this will increase the prices even further.
For you tl;dr'ers out there.
The prices on ebay for villein is ridiculous. You can NOT get villeins for $7-8 a piece - that is in the current state of the game a myth. This will scare away new and returning players. New and returning players are a good thing. Also, I like waffles.
Ehm no. They go for 15 dollars each. For me, 150 dollars is a lot of cash.In our group, 2-3 players have decks with many Villein in them. The rest of us can't build decks with large vampires. Not decks that work in our group, anyway.
Joscha, I think this and other polls are representative of player opinion.
You should develop a protocol for formally submitting poll results to VEKN. If a poll shows a significant trend that indicates that players want a particular change, then you should submit it to the rules director and ask for a response.
I suggest having a poll open for at least four weeks and that you get at least 100 responses before submitting the results. Obviously you would only want to submit results that show a strong trend, such as this one.
I voted to limit the amount of blood retrieved through Villein, but I am also fine with Villein as is if it doesn't hose Minion Tap so badly.
> Aaron wrote:
> Joscha, I think this and other polls are representative of player opinion.
>
> You should develop a protocol for formally submitting poll results to VEKN. If a poll shows a significant trend that indicates that players want a particular change, then you should submit it to the rules director and ask for a response.
>
> I suggest having a poll open for at least four weeks and that you get at least 100 responses before submitting the results. Obviously you would only want to submit results that show a strong trend, such as this one.
>
> I voted to limit the amount of blood retrieved through Villein, but I am also fine with Villein as is if it doesn't hose Minion Tap so badly.
>
Something that is the opinion of 0.1% of the player base should not force the volunteers to any special action.
That is not as democratic as you claim. Quite the opposite.
> stromgard wrote:
> Ehm no. They go for 15 dollars each. For me, 150 dollars is a lot of cash.In our group, 2-3 players have decks with many Villein in them. The rest of us can't build decks with large vampires. Not decks that work in our group, anyway.
>
When you ask your friends to borrow 8 of their Villein for a deck that you want to try, what do they say?
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017
> Aaron wrote:
> Joscha, I think this and other polls are representative of player opinion.
>
Not even close to being representative or following anything resembling a controlled state for polling.
Polls may be decent at gauging public opinion, but they are horrible at coming up with solutions. You ask any number of folks who voted for one of the "solutions" to what ails Villein, I guarantee that many of them will prefer to leave the card alone, rather than fixing it in a bad way or at least one of which they disapprove.
When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
As I stated elsewhere I'm in a strong doubt wether the outcome of those polls could be called representative. After all we just reach readers of this forum, whose number actually is just a fraction of the players in the world. And even of this number only some participate in the polls (unfortunately).
On the other hand the sum up of opinions and suggestions is of not small interest for the design-team and the developing people. I think if a clear majority of caring players, even if just of a smaller group, feels bad about a card that should lead at least to a discussion of the deciding people.
By the way: My goal of these polls is NOT necessarily a change of cards players see as a problem, but to set an end to those endless repeating equal discussions at the forum. Hopefully you can tell in future threads "we were through this before, remember the poll and look at the arguments". That could stop the boring repetitions.
Baron of Frankfurt
> Joscha wrote:
> As I stated elsewhere I'm in a strong doubt wether the outcome of those polls could be called representative.
>
I also strongly doubt that the player opinion is alway the better things. It help to make acceptables decisions and to avoid stupid decision, but I agree that VtES evolution is better with a strong direction that hear the player than by collegial decision of every interested player.
No eBay APP ID défined in Kunena configuration
>
> wastaz wrote:
>
> * 2 villeins for $9.99 a piece + shipping $3.50 = $23.48
> * 2 villeins for $13.50 a piece + shipping $2.50 = $29.50
> * 6 villeins for $15.00 a piece + shipping $1.45 = $91.45
> Total = $144.43
>
> The prices on ebay for villein is ridiculous. You can NOT get villeins for $7-8 a piece - that is in the current state of the game a myth. This will scare away new and returning players. New and returning players are a good thing. Also, I like waffles.
>
[/quote]
Or you could just WAIT a look for the right time to buy them, they are up there at times being sold for 6-7$ including shipment.
Check this link: so much for it "being a myth".
But ofcouse, if you dont want to work alittel for it. No you CANT have all the cards you want for NOTHING. Like any other card game, you either need to pay money or attention to how to get what you would like to play...
Tell me a CCG where this isent true?
/Jesper
No eBay APP ID défined in Kunena configuration
>
> Jesper wrote:
> Or you could just WAIT a look for the right time to buy them, they are up there at times being sold for 6-7$ including shipment.
>
> Check this link: so much for it "being a myth".
>
> But ofcouse, if you dont want to work alittel for it. No you CANT have all the cards you want for NOTHING. Like any other card game, you either need to pay money or attention to how to get what you would like to play...
>
> Tell me a CCG where this isent true?
>
> /Jesper
>
I was a Magic player for many years and spent an extreme amount of money on that game playing T1. So no, in comparison to that game VTES is cheap. I agree with you. And yes, "being a myth" was probably a bit too harsh a language because -yes- sometimes you can find good deals on villeins on ebay. That is the truth and I fully agree with you. I do not believe that all the cards I want should be available for nothing. The "hunt for the cards I need" is a part of all CCG's.
But I do feel that you missed the larger point here.
Villein isn't Enkil Cog or Summon History. Not owning a set of Villeins locks you out of way too many deck types for the game to be as interesting as we all know it is. New players has have an easy way to enter the game and "feel" how awesome it is. If all new players has to sit on ebay and wait for someone to post a good deal on villeins we -are- going to lose a lot of new players. So IMHO the price on ebay we should take into account is the normal day-to-day prices that are easy to find, even for newcomers. Those prices are the ones I posted earlier (which you can still see if you search for villein on ebay).
You can find great deals on ebay, but only _one_ person can win the great deal. And then the rest has to wait for another one. I'm still waiting for a great deal on parity shifts since I don't have any and I don't wish to pay the normal ebay price for them. This hoses the camarilla vote decks I build, but in the parity shift case I can still make -decent- vote decks without them. Now, there are hardly no great deals showing up for parity shifts on ebay anymore. This sucks, and since there won't be any reprinting of parity shifts anytime soon I probably won't ever get any at all. But at least missing Parity Shifts doesn't lock me out of as many deck types as missing Villeins would. (Which is also a big part of why I am PRO on Parity Shift but CON on Villein.)
I also see that you completely ignored my comment on supply and demand and the implications for future pricing of the card. Is it because you think it was completely wrong or because you don't see demand going up for villeins in the future?
Starting to play VTES should be easy. Not hard. A game like this survives by not stagnating, CCG's needs new players to live. Without new players the old players will sooner or later become bored and quit. If we want this game to live we must not forget the new players just because CCP/WW stopped printing the game. Not being in print any longer is enough of a threshold to get new players to step over. We don't need to add "oh and then you have to go on ebay and pay $150 for 10 copies of this card, or wait for someone to post a great deal" to the list of things that new players has to do if they wish to start out with this game.
Staple cards that _needs_ to go in almost every deck should be cheap and available. That is where I felt that VTES had got it right. A huge majority of the staple cards in this game are common/uncommon, relatively cheap and plentiful. In magic you pretty much play with decks of rare cards - which is horrible and creates the "I have the most cash, I win" situation that we all hate.
The changes that we need to do to at least make minion tap _playable_ again are very minor and would open a slighty easier way to play bigcaps even for new players, and un-wallpaper minion tap. The MT hosing part should -at least- be taken out, and I'm not against limiting the amount of blood that can be pulled off with villein either - but I see that as strictly priority 2. I'm all for keeping villein as a trifle, but being a trifle is so powerful that in order to keep it as one it really needs to be "worse" than MT in some way. Again, see the vessel/blood doll relation. Currently there really is -never- any reason to play Minion Tap over Villein.
-- Fred
Ps.
Also, I apologize in advance if my language is harsh, I am not in any way attempting to insult you. I'm just very adamant in my beliefs in this case and I feel that your argument was not strong enough to discredit my earlier post. And I'm not really sure how to phrase my arguments in a less harsh way.
These polls are quite useless unless we vote for a package of cards. It´s the combos, not the individual cards that are the problem.
Overkill is highly underrated. You know, like in computor games and such.
> wastaz wrote:
>
> I was a Magic player for many years and spent an extreme amount of money on that game playing T1. So no, in comparison to that game VTES is cheap. I agree with you. And yes, "being a myth" was probably a bit too harsh a language because -yes- sometimes you can find good deals on villeins on ebay. That is the truth and I fully agree with you. I do not believe that all the cards I want should be available for nothing. The "hunt for the cards I need" is a part of all CCG's.
>
Well its not just “sometimes” they are there quite frequently, and mind, that the link I provided wasent even sold, at the pris of 7,5 pr. Villein.
> wastaz wrote:
> But I do feel that you missed the larger point here.
>
Not really, I just wanted to show that what you posted was plainly wrong, and it took me about 30 seconds to find out. The price of Villein are being debated here quite often, and quite often people comes with the things you say, and its plain and simple wrong.
> wastaz wrote:
> Villein isn't Enkil Cog or Summon History. Not owning a set of Villeins locks you out of way too many deck types for the game to be as interesting as we all know it is. New players has have an easy way to enter the game and "feel" how awesome it is. If all new players has to sit on ebay and wait for someone to post a good deal on villeins we -are- going to lose a lot of new players. So IMHO the price on ebay we should take into account is the normal day-to-day prices that are easy to find, even for newcomers. Those prices are the ones I posted earlier (which you can still see if you search for villein on ebay).
>
This is completely up to the playgroups, and can quite easy be solved,
a) By allowing proxies
b) By borrowing if trading is not possible
If the play groups aren’t interested in fixing this, then, as I see it, it is really a local problem.
> wastaz wrote:
> You can find great deals on ebay, but only _one_ person can win the great deal. And then the rest has to wait for another one.
>
Yeah, and in the link I provided no one even wanted to have them. But that’s proberly because its easier hanging around vekn.net and complain about the prices being to high.
> wastaz wrote:
>
> I'm still waiting for a great deal on parity shifts since I don't have any and I don't wish to pay the normal ebay price for them. This hoses the camarilla vote decks I build, but in the parity shift case I can still make -decent- vote decks without them.
>
And I need 9 Ezmaralds to make my 12 Ezmaralda all star crypt. But I can either pay 50$ a pop, trade for them or find something else to do.
> wastaz wrote:
> Now, there are hardly no great deals showing up for parity shifts on ebay anymore. This sucks, and since there won't be any reprinting of parity shifts anytime soon I probably won't ever get any at all. But at least missing Parity Shifts doesn't lock me out of as many deck types as missing Villeins would. (Which is also a big part of why I am PRO on Parity Shift but CON on Villein.)
>
I don’t know what “a good deal” for you is, so hard for me to say.
> wastaz wrote:
> I also see that you completely ignored my comment on supply and demand and the implications for future pricing of the card. Is it because you think it was completely wrong or because you don't see demand going up for villeins in the future?
>
Becouse all I wanted to point out that you “its all a myth” was wrong. But yes I belive it is completely wrong, there are no sign that the prices of e.g. Villeins are going up (but maybe Kevin could comment on the, since he is watching this much more closely these days than I am).
> wastaz wrote:
> Starting to play VTES should be easy. Not hard.
>
But it is, its insanly hard to start play, simply because of the insanely complex rules, and that you got ever card ever printet (minus a handful or two) there is legal to play.
> wastaz wrote:
> A game like this survives by not stagnating, CCG's needs new players to live. Without new players the old players will sooner or later become bored and quit. If we want this game to live we must not forget the new players just because CCP/WW stopped printing the game. Not being in print any longer is enough of a threshold to get new players to step over. We don't need to add "oh and then you have to go on ebay and pay $150 for 10 copies of this card, or wait for someone to post a great deal" to the list of things that new players has to do if they wish to start out with this game.
>
Ill use a quote from Johannes on this:
> johannes wrote:
>
> The point of the set is to keep the interest in the existing community alive. A 20-30 card set that is fixing some holes of cards that were never printed but should be there will hardly help a new player. VTES is an exclusive club because the game is insanely complex. Stuff for new players would be awesome of course, but I think that will not happen unless some company picks it up. The goal of the VEKN is to preserve as much as possible and hope for someone to come along and publish it again.
>
> wastaz wrote:
> Staple cards that _needs_ to go in almost every deck should be cheap and available. That is where I felt that VTES had got it right. A huge majority of the staple cards in this game are common/uncommon, relatively cheap and plentiful. In magic you pretty much play with decks of rare cards - which is horrible and creates the "I have the most cash, I win" situation that we all hate.
>
I think we partly agree on this, but Ill also claim that they partly are that also. There have been plenty of discussion going around older cards that some either means a) should be fixed or b) printed in someway.
Right now there is _no way_ to get those cards printed again. And for that if you do errata a cards you have no way of printing a correctly worded version of the card. And talking from experience, you don’t help new players with having a bunch of cards where you need to tell them every time what they dose and keep reminding them of it, because they cant read it. So only solution I see is to ban the cards. And let me say, there are _alot_ of cards I rather see on a ban list then Villein. Also v:tes have a tradition of only banning cards when it was extremely necessary.
> wastaz wrote:
> The changes that we need to do to at least make minion tap _playable_ again are very minor and would open a slighty easier way to play bigcaps even for new players, and un-wallpaper minion tap. The MT hosing part should -at least- be taken out, and I'm not against limiting the amount of blood that can be pulled off with villein either - but I see that as strictly priority 2. I'm all for keeping villein as a trifle, but being a trifle is so powerful that in order to keep it as one it really needs to be "worse" than MT in some way. Again, see the vessel/blood doll relation. Currently there really is -never- any reason to play Minion Tap over Villein.
>
But as mentioned above, no way of printing a new version of the card either. Which kinda, really really sucks, if you reword the card. Maybe, just maybe, we could se a Minion Tap/Villein type card in one of the upcoming vekn sets? Just an idea for the designers ;o)
> wastaz wrote:
> Ps.
> Also, I apologize in advance if my language is harsh, I am not in any way attempting to insult you. I'm just very adamant in my beliefs in this case and I feel that your argument was not strong enough to discredit my earlier post. And I'm not really sure how to phrase my arguments in a less harsh way.
>
Non taken, as mentioned I just wanted to point out that what you said was wrong
/Jesper
Excuse me, guys, this is the poll-thread. Could I sincerely ask you if you could lead this discussion in the "On Villein"-thread, because hopefully there the majority of players will gather arguments both CON and PRO to come to a decision. And it appears to me you both see the availability of the card as important to judge if it is good for the game or bad. I think in that thread your arguments will rather be read.
Baron of Frankfurt
This may have been suggested before, but what if the minion tap hosing also worked for all other villain. Not just on this vampire. I think this would bring back MT and reduce the effect of bloating.
> wastaz wrote:
> A game like this survives by not stagnating, CCG's needs new players to live. Without new players the old players will sooner or later become bored and quit.
>
Did we gain new players during the first time the game died for 5-years? The game came ROARING back when White Wolf printed Sabbat War.
I've always considered maintaining the current player base to be more important than recruiting new players, but only one step more important. Certainly, new players are important, too.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017
> Joscha wrote:
> Excuse me, guys, this is the poll-thread. Could I sincerely ask you if you could lead this discussion in the "On Villein"-thread, because hopefully there the majority of players will gather arguments both CON and PRO to come to a decision. And it appears to me you both see the availability of the card as important to judge if it is good for the game or bad. I think in that thread your arguments will rather be read.
>
Im sorry Joscha, but this was where I was asked. This is where I would answere. Everything else seems pointless.
Its your choosing to have splitted your process into severl threads, flooding the vekn forums with it. Its my choosing to comment and answere where _I_ find it relevant.
Well, so far its two to one in favor of changing Villien.
Maybe we should have poll on what change to Villien should be put into play.
I would like to add to options.
1) a minion may only have one Villien
2) a minion may only have one Villien and no or little Minion Tap hosing(Villien do not stack for increased pool cost).
> Joscha wrote:
> As I stated elsewhere I'm in a strong doubt wether the outcome of those polls could be called representative.
>
I really disagree with you here. Don't listen to the naysayers. If you look at the polls you have started, almost all of them favor no change. This is the only one, I think, in which a significant number of respondents agree that a change should happen.
VTES players tend to be rather conservative, in my experience, or at least resistant to change. Your other polls definitely show that trend. VTES players aren't on the whole looking for sweeping changes or lots of tweaks to cards. However, about 2 out of every 3 VTES players I have talked to (who have an opinion) agree that Villein is problematic. This poll reflects my experience, as do the other ones.
> Jesper wrote:
> Its your choosing to have splitted your process into severl threads, flooding the vekn forums with it. Its my choosing to comment and answere where _I_ find it relevant.
>
Jesus, calm down, guys. Discuss where you want to. I just tried to remember you politely that there is a place intended to gather all arguments for or against this card. I don't care if you open up several more regarding Villein. Likely then none at all will be read anymore.
Baron of Frankfurt
They need them in their own decks. Their playstyle is mostly huge vampires, so they have one set of villeins that they move between each deck.
Also, thy have a valid argument against using other cards as proxies. "I paid 100 Euros for my Villeins since I was not allowed to proxy. So should you."
Can't really argue with that, since they would never have used that much cash if proxying had been allowed.
> stromgard wrote:
> Can't really argue with that, since they would never have used that much cash if proxying had been allowed.
>
My argument against that (sorry if I hurt someone) is "you being insane does not compel me to be insane too".
> KevinM wrote:
>
> > stromgard wrote:
> > Ehm no. They go for 15 dollars each. For me, 150 dollars is a lot of cash.In our group, 2-3 players have decks with many Villein in them. The rest of us can't build decks with large vampires. Not decks that work in our group, anyway.
> >
> When you ask your friends to borrow 8 of their Villein for a deck that you want to try, what do they say?
>
They need them in their own decks. Their playstyle is mostly huge vampires, so they have one set of villeins that they move between each deck.
Also, thy have a valid argument against using other cards as proxies. "I paid 100 Euros for my Villeins since I was not allowed to proxy. So should you."
Can't really argue with that, since they would never have used that much cash if proxying had been allowed.
> stromgard wrote:
>
> > KevinM wrote:
> >
> > > stromgard wrote:
> > > Ehm no. They go for 15 dollars each. For me, 150 dollars is a lot of cash.In our group, 2-3 players have decks with many Villein in them. The rest of us can't build decks with large vampires. Not decks that work in our group, anyway.
> > >
> > When you ask your friends to borrow 8 of their Villein for a deck that you want to try, what do they say?
> >
> They need them in their own decks. Their playstyle is mostly huge vampires, so they have one set of villeins that they move between each deck.
>
> Also, thy have a valid argument against using other cards as proxies. "I paid 100 Euros for my Villeins since I was not allowed to proxy. So should you."
>
> Can't really argue with that, since they would never have used that much cash if proxying had been allowed.
>
You can counter that with:
"Exactly. You paid allot to play VtES the way you like it. With that attitude you'll have less and less people to play with and the amount of money you payed will be more and more for nothing."
But I now agree with Kevin in that if you really need, you can snipe Villeins under 8 US$ in eBay.
All you need to do is spend time there.
> Brum wrote:
> But I now agree with Kevin in that if you really need, you can snipe Villeins under 8 US$ in eBay.
>
I appreciate that you agree to that fact at last. I wonder though why you only believe Kevin on that and nobody else as for example I tried to convince you of that matter for one year now
Baron of Frankfurt
Sorry, should have included everyone that stated that, Joscha.
I wrote that for the following reasons:
1. I've seen multiple cases of Villeins going under 8. One would not be enough for me, because it could've been sheer luck.
2. Besides here, I talk with Kevin allot about VtES and non VtES subjects elsewhere. Subconsciously I named him because we're friends.
However I don't think anyone's opinions are less valuable than others and I think all contributions are positive, if done a polite and comprehensive manner.
Of course in things like rules and org play, I take Pascal's opinions on a higher note, but I think you guys can understand that.
The final and deciding vote is in.
> Pascal wrote:
> Villein:
> Master: trifle. Put this card on a vampire you control and move 2 or more blood from that vampire to your pool. Minion Tap cards cost {you} an additional pool. Villein costs an additional pool to play on this vampire.
>
Way better would be:
Villein:
Master: trifle. Put this card on a vampire you control and move 2 or more blood from that vampire to your pool. Minion Tap cards cost an additional {1} pool. Villein costs an additional pool to play on this vampire.
Set amount.
But fair enough, minion tap is playable now.
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
> Suoli wrote:
> The final and deciding vote is in.
>
> > Pascal wrote:
> > Villein:
> > Master: trifle. Put this card on a vampire you control and move 2 or more blood from that vampire to your pool. Minion Tap cards cost {you} an additional pool. Villein costs an additional pool to play on this vampire.
> >
Yep, they did the change already. I think Villein is still too good and abusable with Giant's Blood and Lilith's Blessing but okay. At least Minion Tap is playable again and the whining about the card possibly stops.
Baron of Frankfurt