New Card: Reversal of Hierachy

Name: Reversal of Hierachy Cardtype: Event Gehenna. Do not replace until your next discard phase. Master cards cost an additional X pool, where X is the number of master cards already played in the same turn. (This counts for out-of-turn master cards as well.) Warning: Spoiler! I know I once showed this off before in the General Discussion Forum but I only got very little feedback, so here it is in the proper forum section. This card is supposed to mainly do 3 things: 1. Help decks that have a noticeable problem with MMPA decks. 2. Speed up the game. 3. Give you a way to play more Gehenna cards. I will start with point 2: This card effects decks that play multiple Master Cards in a turn, but not exclusively. Playing any Master card played after a trifle will cost 1 more. Out-of-turn masters will cost additional pool if there was a card played before (that includes Sudden Reversal, as the canceled Card still counts as having been played. Same reasoning as why a canceled GB counts as played.) Therefore this cards for example makes Tzimisce pay 1 or 2 pool for a Rotschreck, or it may make weenie decks think twice before playing 2 Life in the City per turn. This deck might furthermore assist in bringing Minion Tap, albeit very slightly, back as a non-trifle deck will rarely ever have to pay the additional pool. Now to the probably more critical point of how it interacts with MMPAs: I'll start with an example. An Anson/Nana/Cybele+Parthenon gives 3 MPAs. That means using all will incur a cost of 3 Pool. This would make playing e.g. 3 Ashur Tablets make a pool gain of 0 but still return 13 cards to deck/hand. (Which I see as fair, given that this is an table affecting event that can be removed) Also Villeins become essentially 1 pool more expensive if you plan to make use of the trifle effect. Then comes an important thing to note: Using Lilith Blessing is still free as you are not playing a master card. So if LB would become Unique (according to some discussion, which I support) then it will not be affected further in a negative way by this card. Honestly the reason why I held back this card Idea which I actually like a lot, is because I don't want to be starting another "MMPA needs to be fixed" thread. But as Joscha has opened the floor in looking at the cards mostly abused by MMPA, I thought it would be a good time to see if I can get support for this card idea to possibly make it into the expansion if it passes scrutiny. Ok now after all this, for the background/lore: This card is supposed to show the time near the end of Gehenna, when the Antediluvian(s) start/are getting destroyed and the Elders loose more and more influence to the young masses. Therefore for you the Methuselah influencing the Jyhad, becomes more and more costly in terms of your resources. Furthermore, too much meddling might make you a new target for the masses of vampires that hate the Elders. Thank you for your time!

I think you should amend it to be this text, in order to do what you're looking for. "Master cards cost an additional X pool for each Methuselah, where X is the number of Master cards each Methuselah has played since their last untap phase." Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > I think you should amend it to be this text, in order to do what you're looking for. > > "Master cards cost an additional X pool for each Methuselah, where X is the number of Master cards each Methuselah has played since their last untap phase." > Not really as this wouldn't speed up the game. That deck that plays a Sudden every turn will never pay extra because it's according to you text only one card between untaps. Also Lore-wise: What is even worse that one Methuselah being very active, is a whole bunch of them putting their hands in the pot. (Therefore also Sudden-Chains will become very costly)

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > I think you should amend it to be this text, in order to do what you're looking for. > > "Master cards cost an additional X pool for each Methuselah, where X is the number of Master cards each Methuselah has played since their last untap phase." > This has no logical sense. Did you mean "that Methuselah has played..." ? Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I took it at least that way.

So are you looking to have the 5th player potentially pay +5 pool for a Master they play in their first turn? Or are you looking to punish someone who wants to dump 3+ Masters down between untap phases? It seems what you're trying to punish are things like... Villein + Giants Blood + Villein or Anthelios to grab Villein + Play Villein + Golconda or Wash + Golconda + Pentex If you want to basically penalise all players for all masters played, then go for your option. If you want to penalise individuals who want to play a 60 card deck with 30+ Masters, seems you are trying to go for the version I wrote. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > So are you looking to have the 5th player potentially pay +5 pool for a Master they play in their first turn? Or are you looking to punish someone who wants to dump 3+ Masters down between untap phases? It seems what you're trying to punish are things like... > Villein + Giants Blood + Villein > or > Anthelios to grab Villein + Play Villein + Golconda > or > Wash + Golconda + Pentex > > If you want to basically penalise all players for all masters played, then go for your option. > > If you want to penalise individuals who want to play a 60 card deck with 30+ Masters, seems you are trying to go for the version I wrote. > You understood the card mechanic wrong. It counts how many masters were played in a turn. A turn is from untap to discard. There are 5 turns in a game with 5 Methuselah in each rotation. Also I said, this card is not there to exclusively punish MMPA! This card, as generally with event is more general (Unmasking helps allies, The thirst punishes weenies) so this card affect Masters in general. So if you keep your head down (1 master per turn) then nothing bad happens, but when one tries too much, or you try interfere (Sudden) then it becomes costly.

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > If you want to penalise individuals who want to play a 60 card deck with 30+ Masters, seems you are trying to go for the version I wrote. > And why would one want to penalize someone that plays a 60 card deck with 30+ Masters? What's next? Penalize someone that plays a 60 card deck with 30+ bleed actions and bleed modifiers? Penalize someone that plays a 60 card deck with 15+ political actions and 10+ vote modifiers? Penalize someone that plays a 60 card deck with 30+ combat cards? Why would you want to do that? And if so, would anyone use that? Do people use Scourge of the Enochians like they used to? Next year's EC will have completely different meta. That's my guess.

Overkill. Each master card played after the first costs 1 more pool to play, maximum.

Why a card that costs nothing - except a one turn without replacing it - should destroy entire decks? No sense. Too strong and cornercase. You kill my deck while yours don't have any significant disavantage? Check narrow minds for balance checking. It does not kills redirections, but impairs it. Just do: "Each methuselah should burn 1 pool for each master phase he gets after the first each turn. Put the burned pool on this card. Burn this card when it reach 6 counters". change the "do not replace until next discard phase" to "do not replace this card as long it is in play". Now we are making a card that brings pain, but not destruction to those decks. I don't want to kill trifle and hand contract and maleficia/striga mechanic with one event card. I am death. Paul Kersey, Death Wish

> Charles_Bronson wrote: > Why a card that costs nothing - except a one turn without replacing it - should destroy entire decks? > > No sense. Too strong and cornercase. You kill my deck while yours don't have any significant disavantage? Check narrow minds for balance checking. It does not kills redirections, but impairs it. > > Just do: "Each methuselah should burn 1 pool for each master phase he gets after the first each turn. Put the burned pool on this card. Burn this card when it reach 6 counters". > > change the "do not replace until next discard phase" to "do not replace this card as long it is in play". > > Now we are making a card that brings pain, but not destruction to those decks. > I don't want to kill trifle and hand contract and maleficia/striga mechanic with one event card. > Who says it kills them? Nobody forces you to use all your MPAs. What about the decks that play the discipline hosers. I am ok with making it "Do not replace as long as in play", but I think this card is by far not as strong as Veil of Darkness or Blood Weakens, or Unmasking for that matter. Narrow Minds that you mentioned is not a Gehenna event. Non-Gehenna events tend to have less visible effects. But therefore Gehenna cards have more cards that can remove or benefit from them. And 1 more pool because of trifles is like an Antediluvian Awakening, just with the difference that nobody is forcing you to play a second Master.

I like it, maybe just limit it in a way that additionall masters would cost one more, not x more, and to replace a card only after someone pays for this effect

> Charles_Bronson wrote: > Now we are making a card that brings pain, but not destruction to those decks. > I don't want to kill trifle and hand contract and maleficia/striga mechanic with one event card. > Similarly, Aye and Orun are both Trifles, and I wouldn't really want to discourage being able to play multiple of those in master phases. If particular master cards - or particular "types" of master cards with particular mechanics - are the problem, I'd prefer to see counters that interacted more squarely with those mechanics. The collateral damage here to uncontroversial master cards seems much, much too high. For example, if it's pool gain (particularly Villein) and blood gain (Giant's Blood) that are the issues, you might instead go for something like: Impending Masquerade Breach Event. Government. Put this card in play with X breach counters, where X is the number of Methuselahs in the game. During master phases, if a Methuselah uses a single card or effect to move more than two blood from a vampire to her pool or from the blood bank to one of her vampires, turn that vampire and any cards on him face down, out of play (breaking any temporary control effects) until the end of the current turn, and remove a breach counter from this card. Burn this card when it has zero breach counters (but any vampires remain out of play until the end of the current turn as normal). (The out-of-play text is based on Descent into Darkness.) Hits Giant's Blood. Hitss Villein. Hits Minion Tap. Doesn't hit Grooming the Protege. Doesn't hit multiple Blood Dolls (separate effects). Doesn't hit Vessel (wrong phase). Doesn't hit Renewed Vigor (untap phase). Doesn't hit Concert Tour (untap phase). Doesn't hit multiple Life in the City. Doesn't hit multiple Hunting Grounds. Doesn't hit Striga or Aye. The power level could, of course, be adjusted.

I like this. Very creative.