On Lilith's Blessing 3. "problematic card"

This is the third thread of the discussions about cards some people see as problematic. As this is a collection of arguments for keeping the card as it is (PRO card) or changing it in whatever way (CONTRA card). It would be most useful, if you could write above your entry, if your arguments are PRO or CONTRA the card as it is to attain best clarity of what speaks in favor of the card and what does not. After 7 days of discussion I will initialize a poll about that specific card, in which the alternatives can be found. Lilith's Blessing Master [1 Pool] Master. Put this card in play. As a master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and becomes Bahari. PRO I think this card is only a problem because the trifelness of Villein. Without that it is rather difficult to be on zero blood in a master phase without a Vessel on you. The effect is very good indeed, but not broken or damaging the game. So I'd leave it as it is, if Villein was changed. Baron of Frankfurt

PRO Sure it is an advantage and it's weird that's not Unique, but if you want absolutely to do the faomus Villein + Lilith every turn you need to play lots of Lilith's to be sure to have it, so your deck will be constructed for using that and you won't have any other useful masters.

I suppose its non-uniqueness comes from the fact that the card was supposed to be introduced in a storyline event, where contesting the storyline cards would have been .. unefficient.

> acbishop wrote: > PRO > > Sure it is an advantage and it's weird that's not Unique, but if you want absolutely to do the faomus Villein + Lilith every turn you need to play lots of Lilith's to be sure to have it, so your deck will be constructed for using that and you won't have any other useful masters. > Not with Anthelios that lets you recycle the extra Lilith's Blessing into something more useful. I don't think any of those cards can be judged separately. It is the whole master bloat module that is abusive. I'd rather get a hoser against extra MPAs than an erratum on any of the discussed cards.

CONTRA I feel it needs to be unique, to add a contest fear. As it is, andybody can use it, and 3 blood on an empty vampire is decent for an MPA. Fetching a discipline is just cherry on top, and excellent in turbo decks

I'm pro LB. If villein wasn't a trifle or was otherwise less easy to use, LB would be more fair. Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

CONTRA I feel it need to be banned, it's 3 blood gain and fetch the discipline for nearly no cost. It is the root of problem, not villein. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

PRO It costs 1 pool, the effect is nice but hard to trigger (if you don't play Villein), and it costs a MPA. Even when abused with Villein, it's not overpowered: it leaves your vampire at 3 blood, ready to be rushed. I tried to put some in my Aim & Chain, it was an utter failure. The MPA cost is too much and the "once per vampire" too restrictive when you really need blood. I'd rather play some Hunting Grounds, Jake Washington or Life in the City in such decks. I'd quite nice in my Huitzilopochtli - Great Beast on the other hand, but good cards useful in certain decks are good things. Also, I've not seem the card played that often, I'm not sure what people are complaining about. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

PRO (assuming something is done about Villein to stop the Villein + Lilith combo) CONTRA (if Villein stays as is) It's a good card, but only Villein really makes it broken. Without that, it's still good but not an automatic bloat machine. I don't see it as a problem if Villein is seriously nerfed (taking away the Trifle would be my favorite). If Villein stays, then this card needs a fix. Making it Unique would be the best way to do that, imho. Of course, that would make the game a somewhat silly race to see who gets to play it first... but hey, it's *already* a silly race to see who gets the Villein + Giant's Blood first... :/ I *would* love to see some new cards that do something (possibly nasty) with that Bahari keyword, but that's another matter

Team I've written elsewhere that I think this card is ok for the following reasons: -You have more then 2 on your deck: better chance of having it, deck is worse. -You have 1 or 2 on your deck: less chance of using it, but the deck is more focused. -This card trades winning pool for making your deck more vulnerable to combat. And with just 3 blood, it makes your vampires able to use less cards that cost blood. -Villein is the bigger issue, but if you touch Villein you open a bigger can of worms (see appropriate thread for Villein related issues).

CONTRA Combining with villein makes this ridiculous. Villein only transfers blood, but getting 3 extra counters from the blood bank for every vampire you transfer (+ a discipline)..

PRO & CONTRA With villein it's ridiculous. Without it's very good card, but nothing that should be nerfed. Looks like villein is the problem, not lilith's blessing

CONTRA It would be fine if it was Unique. Or you could add some cards that do Bad ShitTM to Bahari vampires to the upcoming PDF sets. Preferably to cards that already had a usable effect so they wouldn't be wallpaper if there wasn't any Bahari around. Kinda in the vein of Fiendish Tongue vs Anarchs, but even more so. Finnish Politics!

PRO It is a master card, so it can be sudden-ed or wash-ed. You need many Lilith's Blessings in your deck to be sure, that you can (ab)use ist. It uses a MPA, so it slows down your master card flow. National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de

PRO Just kill villein and it'll be fine. NC Russia

I don´t like the fact that it is mostly used for blood gain and only rarely for it´s much more interesting effect, the search for discipline card. I would have made the card free (no pool) and no blood gain, just the discipline card, would have been good enough. Permanent blood gain just prolongs games, actually Coven is just as problematic in that regard. Still, everyone can use it, so I have difficulties caliing for the ban-hammer. That should be wielded with extreme caution.

CONTRA I agree with those who think that Lilith Blessing should be unique. Even without Villein-LB thing it's just way too good. I don't think that LB should be banned, just tweak it down a little.

CONTRA: Every other card of similar type (Coven, Hunting Ground, Jake Washington, etc.) is unique. The abuse together with Villein is ridiculous. Possible Solutions: 1. Banning 2. Cardtext Changes: 2.a. Unique 2.b. Forcing a discipline card to be fetched (similar to The Becoming). (Actually this is not my idea, but another German player (Sebastian?) suggested this this week to me).

> extrala wrote: > Possible Solutions: > 1. Banning > 2. Cardtext Changes: > 2.a. Unique > 2.b. Forcing a discipline card to be fetched (similar to The Becoming). (Actually this is not my idea, but another German player (Sebastian?) suggested this this week to me). > 2.c. Limit it to once per player (Unique could be an issue if later down the line you want to do more with the Bahari trait) 3. Do nothing with Lilith's Blessing and instead do something to "fix" Villein pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> extrala wrote: > 2.b. Forcing a discipline card to be fetched (similar to The Becoming). (Actually this is not my idea, but another German player (Sebastian?) suggested this this week to me). > I really like this idea. It's really quite interesting. However, I am PRO * The real problem is villein. Getting a vampire to 0 blood in the master phase is hard to do reliably without it. * It already costs 1 MPA to put Liliths into play, and another MPA each time you want to use it. I've never seen this card as a problem because often enough choosing between using liliths and playing an actual master card is just so damn hard when I'm actually in the game. * To use it reliably you have to fill your deck with them, playing just 1 liliths in a deck of 90 is just asking for not seeing it during your entire game. Of course, the multiple-master-action craze that is going on right now is making liliths a better card than otherwise. Heck, with Nana or Anson out you could potentially even use minion tap to do the villein-liliths combo if you wanted Though I still feel that the main problem is villein and its trifleness. With Anson out I could potentially do Minion Tap+Lilith on one of my vampires. But that would be it. With Anson out and villein I could do Villein+Lilith+Another cool master, which is much better. If the proposed fixes to villein (limit the blood it takes for instance) is done, I don't see that Liliths should be a huge problem (except for decks that only bloat, but if you want to make a bloat-only deck then go ahead, more power to you).

Thank you for the sumup. I'd take it right as options for the poll. 1. Banning 2. Cardtext Changes: 2.a. Unique 2.b. Forcing a discipline card to be fetched (similar to The Becoming). 2.c. Limit it to once per player 3. Let the card unchanged, the card is okay that way. Did I miss something? Should one option be worded in another way? Baron of Frankfurt

3.

2a Aaron Archbishop Adelaide

PRO I´m not really for errata nor banning. I´ve tried the card in several decks and find that if you use alot of them without having extra MPAs, you don´t get to play many other funny masters. With extra MPAs it´s another thing, but that´s a whole other problem - the extra MPA-decks are too strong in general and needs some good hosing. Suggested master-hosing card: Methuselah´s Thirst Event The first non-out of turn master played in each master phase cost 1 additional pool. Each subsequent non-out of turn master played cost 2 additional pool. (This card also speeds up games = good. Alternatively, it could be first master = 0 additional pool, each subsequent = 2 additional pool.) Suggested Bahari-hoser: Give pain to seekers Unique master Tap this card during your minion phase and choose a vampire. Once until your next untap phase, the chosen vampire may burn 1 blood to enter combat with any minion as a action. If the minion is Bahari, this action is at +1 stealth. Any vampire can steal this card as a action. (Note: Might need some more restrictions. But you get the idea.) Another suggested Bahari-hoser: Lilith´s Damnation Master Put this card in play. As a master phase action, you may tap this card choose a ready non-Bahari vampire. That vampire burns one blood and becomes Bahari. (Note: If any Bahari-hosing cards are harsh, it also opens up for good cards playable by Bahari.) If you absolutely want to errata the Blessing, I suggest forcing the adding of a skill card (as per The Becoming). "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Sudden wrote: > 2a > Please don't vote yet, there will be an extra pollthread. I was just making sure, that I can take those options for the poll. Thanks. Baron of Frankfurt

This is just a random thought. I don’t like to change card text and prefer not to ban a card. So without changing card text, what would happen if the keyword “Bahari” was defined in the rulebook as a sect like Cam, Sabbat, Laibon. Becoming Bahari would change your sect. Would this make the card “better”? What problems would this create? Since you would lose your title it would make it easier to go Anarch (which may be a good thing?). David Tatu V:EKN Scribe

> david.tatu wrote: > This is just a random thought. I don’t like to change card text and prefer not to ban a card. So without changing card text, what would happen if the keyword “Bahari” was defined in the rulebook as a sect like Cam, Sabbat, Laibon. Becoming Bahari would change your sect. Would this make the card “better”? What problems would this create? Since you would lose your title it would make it easier to go Anarch (which may be a good thing?). > I like that idea very much. This would make the use of LB not desirable for titled vamps (who doesn't want to become anarch after the use) and could open a good hook to introduce Baharicards. So an abuse of LB for just getting three blood on my villeined IC wouldn't be good anymore because of losing the title through the change of sect. I like that. Baron of Frankfurt

Making bahari sect would solve some problems with the card. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

I wait some more time with the poll on this one because I think we need it to think about David's suggestion. Baron of Frankfurt

You have to be careful by just making it a sect as vampire can easily change sect to lose Bahari status and be a valid target for Lilith's Blessing again. It does open up amusing bad cards like Revocation of Tyre and such to change all your Bahari vampires into something else. What about making Bahari an Infernal like keyword that works similar but requires blood on the vampire to untap or some other mechanic.

> Pagan wrote: > You have to be careful by just making it a sect as vampire can easily change sect to lose Bahari status and be a valid target for Lilith's Blessing again. > Kind of like the innate action to go Anarch (and become Independent)? B) pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Pagan wrote: > You have to be careful by just making it a sect as vampire can easily change sect to lose Bahari status and be a valid target for Lilith's Blessing again. > Hm, okay, that is possible. But then your minion has to go Anarch (action) and has to pay blood (2 blood, 1 if controlling another anarch). Is that worth it to get possibly another three blood and a master discipline? Maybe yes, but it is not an easy task, maybe only beneficial with the use of multiaction-cards. You could add sect-changing cards. But that again stresses your deck with cards that don't support your goal: oust your prey. Baron of Frankfurt

> Joscha wrote: > > > Pagan wrote: > > You have to be careful by just making it a sect as vampire can easily change sect to lose Bahari status and be a valid target for Lilith's Blessing again. > > > Hm, okay, that is possible. But then your minion has to go Anarch (action) and has to pay blood (2 blood, 1 if controlling another anarch). Is that worth it to get possibly another three blood and a master discipline? Maybe yes, but it is not an easy task, maybe only beneficial with the use of multiaction-cards. You could add sect-changing cards. But that again stresses your deck with cards that don't support your goal: oust your prey. > Well, with the blood management issues, you'd probably be using Lilith's Blessing multiple times for the discipline cards (rather than the blood). If you want blood, then the reusable Seattle Committee is probably the best option. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> echiang wrote: > > > Joscha wrote: > > > > > Pagan wrote: > > > You have to be careful by just making it a sect as vampire can easily change sect to lose Bahari status and be a valid target for Lilith's Blessing again. > > > > > Hm, okay, that is possible. But then your minion has to go Anarch (action) and has to pay blood (2 blood, 1 if controlling another anarch). Is that worth it to get possibly another three blood and a master discipline? Maybe yes, but it is not an easy task, maybe only beneficial with the use of multiaction-cards. You could add sect-changing cards. But that again stresses your deck with cards that don't support your goal: oust your prey. > > > Well, with the blood management issues, you'd probably be using Lilith's Blessing multiple times for the discipline cards (rather than the blood). > Yes, I like it if discipline cards are played more often. If this David's change would lead to it, why not? Seattle commitee can help a lot to change sects back from Bahari to Anarch. But to get it early you have to play at least four of it in the deck plus the LBs. Fetching master cards is difficult (Sibyl's Tongue is the only one?) so the setup for that bloodpump is hardly effective. I think there are better means to get blood on vampires. So I don't see the potential to abuse the change of making Bahari an own sect. Do you? Baron of Frankfurt

How does enabling a card that has a problem to be used more often a good fix? If there is no problem using it multiple times then change nothing as being able to use it once/vampire is not a problem then. If anything the only downside to making them Bahari is it removes titles while keeping any other text. In this case just make Bahari vampires unable to have any title, then you achieve the same goal and prevent multiple use of Lilith's Blessing on the same vampire.

David's idea sounds interesting, especially with Pagan's addendum from previous post. Finnish Politics!

So would the below poll-options picture the results of this discussion correctly? 1. Banning 2. Cardtext Changes: 2.a. Unique 2.b. Forcing a discipline card to be fetched (similar to The Becoming). 2.c. Limit it to once per player 2.d. Make Bahari an own sect, thus forcing titled vampires losing their titles and further thus ban them from some political actions. 3. Let the card unchanged, the card is okay that way. Did I miss something? Should one option be worded in another way? Baron of Frankfurt

I think you wrapped up all possible options. Seeing it very often i would just change the card text to Unique and everything is going to be alright.

> echiang wrote: > > > Pagan wrote: > > You have to be careful by just making it a sect as vampire can easily change sect to lose Bahari status and be a valid target for Lilith's Blessing again. > > > Kind of like the innate action to go Anarch (and become Independent)? B) > So ? You can use it only once per vampire so it's moot if you stay bahari or not. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Lech wrote: > > > echiang wrote: > > > > > Pagan wrote: > > > You have to be careful by just making it a sect as vampire can easily change sect to lose Bahari status and be a valid target for Lilith's Blessing again. > > > > > Kind of like the innate action to go Anarch (and become Independent)? B) > > > So ? You can use it only once per vampire so it's moot if you stay bahari or not. > Take a look on the cardtext (also known as rtfc ): Lilith's Blessing Master [1 Pool] Master. Put this card in play. As a master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and becomes Bahari. If you make Bahari a sect you can let the minion change his sect to Anarch (or another sect of course), losing the Bahari-trait as a result. So it would be possible to use LB twice on the same minion. I don't think this is a problem, as going anarch is an action or uses up quite some space in your deck for Seattle Commitee or other cards. Baron of Frankfurt

Bahari could be independent sect trait like anarch, so you can be anarch bahari. Problem solved ? Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

i'm totaly CONTRA this card Pls make this pool goes ON ! i wanna vote on this

> Joscha wrote: > So would the below poll-options picture the results of this discussion correctly? > > 1. Banning > 2. Cardtext Changes: > 2.a. Unique > 2.b. Forcing a discipline card to be fetched (similar to The Becoming). > 2.c. Limit it to once per player > 2.d. Make Bahari an own sect, thus forcing titled vampires losing their titles and further thus ban them from some political actions. > 3. Let the card unchanged, the card is okay that way. > > Did I miss something? Should one option be worded in another way? > 2.d. Leave Bahari a trait. A Bahari vampire cannot hold/have a title.