On Ashur Tablets 2. "problematic card"

This is the second thread of the discussions about cards some people see as problematic. As this is a collection of arguments for keeping the card as it is (PRO card) or changing it in whatever way (CONTRA card). It would be most useful, if you could write above your entry, if your arguments are PRO or CONTRA the card as it is to attain best clarity of what speaks in favor of the card and what does not. After 7 days of discussion I will initialize a poll about that specific card, in which the alternatives can be found. Ashur Tablets Cardtype: Master Master. Put this card in play. If you have three copies in play, remove all copies in play (even controlled by other Methuselahs) from the game to gain 3 pool and choose up to thirteen cards from your ash heap. Move one of those cards to your hand and shuffle the others into your library. I'm not sure on this card. I'm a bit annoyed that so many people rely on it and I think it is just so good because of Liquidation. After all it is just 3 pool for 3 MPAs. Of course recursion is always strong. But master cards are often very good. And there must be something in addtion to the poolgain. So yet I'm rather PRO. Baron of Frankfurt

PRO Fine as it is. You sacrifice 3 MPA to get 3 pool and some cards back. True, the stalling effect it has on the game can be annoying but I can live with that. Also the added effect of removing all Ashur Tablets on the table when it triggers makes it quite balanced.

PRO same reasons as Aeschere

CONTRA Taking repeatedly the same Sudden or DI into hand is very annoying. It synergizes too well with MMPAs. pckvtes.wordpress.com

CONTRA The card is great, the trouble arises when played with multiple MPA vampires mainly (eg. Nana) because it allows a too strong recursion due to its "fetching" effect (see below). The pool gain isn't a big deal. 3 MPA to gain 3 pool in the end is fine. Shuffling back some cards isn't that strong when your library is more than half empty. Liquidation is nasty because it allows you to purge your deck. Tutoring any card is bad, especially when you've played liquidation and your ash heap is very likely to contain that card you'd like to fetch (Anthelios, Entrancement, Giant's Blood). I would simply remove the clause saying that you can put back a card in hand. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

CONTRA I feel that whole "broken" effect comes from 1 thing : multiple MPA dacks fetching back masters to abuse through multiple MPA's So, my proposed change would be - no card goes in hand, and only gives back MINION cards.

> Amenophobis wrote: > CONTRA > > Taking repeatedly the same Sudden or DI into hand is very annoying. > Note that Anthelios is much worse than Ashur Tablets to that regard. > > It synergizes too well with MMPAs. > I am going to repeat myself: MMPAs are the problem, not any particular master card. Like we got Scourge of the Enochians against swarm decks, we need a hoser against MMPA decks.

CONTRA Only alowing minion cards would make it less abusive, and it would hose liquidation+ashur as you can't fetch discarded ashurs back (and also bringing back DI or Giant's Blood or another crucial master is too strong). Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Non-existant user wrote: > I am going to repeat myself: MMPAs are the problem, not any particular master card. Like we got Scourge of the Enochians against swarm decks, we need a hoser against MMPA decks. > Any type of Rush Combat, Arson, Sudden Reversal, Wash, the Parthenon, Disputed Territory, Revolutionary Council... I'm not going into disciplines. It would be too boring. Obviously I'm pro Ashur Tablets. And every other of the cards. Scott saw the Girl's deck and didn't do anything about it. I cannot see why would he.

PRO Ashurs are not very card efficient. If you spend your deck and your MPAs sorting through your deck, fine. At MOST Ashurs will give you three pool/turn and let you adjust your deck, but that trick is very ashur-intensive and infrastructure-intensive. Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

(weak) CONTRA It's simply a bit too strong, especially with multiple master phase actions available. Recursion is very strong effect, and this card has no restrictions in its use. I'd say a small nerf is needed. Maybe remove the ability to take one of the cards into your hand.

I think Ashur Tablets are fine. I also believe that everyone who says they are broken don't really have a good grasp on how they actually work and how they influence cardflow in a deck and how useful they are in practice. If you think Ashur+Liquidation is broken, I suggest playing it once and see how fragile your deck is before you have hit 2 Ashur combo's.

PRO Somewhat fragile mechanic suited for certain decks. Only drawback is that it takes time for people to dig through the ash heap and make up their minds. Rejoice in the fact that another archetype is available in competitive play! Lidingö Scourge

PRO Requires multiple MPAs to have any significant effect and all sources of these are unique (save Rumours of Gehenna, which can be voted away). Even if you're not contesting Cybele or Anson, the Ashurs are still really bad to compete for; either you run the risk of wasting cards and MPAs or you have to make a deal which is at least somewhat non-beneficial for you. If this makes tables time out, players need to learn to play with them. Any more than 3 minutes to decide is likely due of lack of experience or lack of brains. Same as imbued or aus weenie, you gotta play fast for two hours to win. The pool-gain is a non-issue. It might be unwarranted on an already strong card, but it should not pose a problem for any predator. If you actually cannot damage your prey faster than 3 pool each round your deck will only win by chance, never by virtue of the deck or your skill. Adam Esbjörnsson, Prince of Örebro

Another reason this this card is useful (I can't believe I'm saying this) is as a tool for combat decks. Ash heap recursion was usually just for or . Now everyone can have this recursion that is much less effective and is almost impossible to use with Liquidation if you don't have extra MPAs. I like it the way it is.

PRO, Xaddam & Brom said it. ---- Banging trashcans, breaking windows We'll wake you up tonight We like the good time, we scream and shout And that's what fun's about

CONTRA Generally it should stay because it has bringed to life a lot of new decks. But I see 2 problems with it. One is significantly more timeouts caused by mass use of this card, another is "recurion for everybody". What point in playing Gio or Necromancy if anyone can play ashur tablets? I would suggest small change to it, like removing a clause about one card return to hand.

CONTRA Too genneric way for everyone to get recursion whcih previously was extremely exclusive. Combine that with (small) bloodgain it introduces and you have a problem which isn't nearly balanced by the drawback that you might have to race some other guy with his Ashurs as well as stack a big chunk of these to fill up your Master slots. Finnish Politics!

PRO I totally agree with Izzak and Adam. National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de

CONTRA 1. Slows the game (which is alredy very slow) 2. Best way to abuse MMPA (which is "priced" wrong mostly) NC Russia

I think the card has three effects that have to be regarded separately: - Take a card in hand - Recycle cards to library - Gain pool I am neither PRO nor CONTRA, however I find the take in hand effect to be very strong, because it is often equivalent to a search library. So this card gives not only recursion (which was hard to get before) but also search library for ANY card (which was even harder to get before). This is all balanced by the effect that everybody can play it (how can a card be too strong if every deck can have it), and the race effect. I feel had the card been properly playtested it would have resulted in a slight change (like requiring 4-5 of them for 4-5 pool).

> johannes wrote: > I think the card has three effects that have to be regarded separately: > > - Take a card in hand > - Recycle cards to library > - Gain pool > The main problem with this card is the time which all this effects takes to execute, so they realy can't be separated NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > > > johannes wrote: > > I think the card has three effects that have to be regarded separately: > > > > - Take a card in hand > > - Recycle cards to library > > - Gain pool > > > The main problem with this card is the time which all this effects takes to execute, so they realy can't be separated > Slow play is not a problem of Ashur Tablets, it is a general problem. If I play and trigger Ashurs my Master Phase is still below 30 seconds, just a matter of planning. I also take not additional time when playing Imbued. I have however faced players who take 10 minutes for their turn with 2 vampires, no masters in play and then bleed for 1.

I am really undecided on this: Pro: * Only problematic with multiple MPA * Blood gain is OK, e.g. when compared to Ascendance. * Card retrieval to the library only is ok. * Removal of *all* Ashurs is fine (when one player makes the full set). Contra: * Only problematic with multiple MPA * Generic recursion, one idea would be the limitation to clan (e.g. Harbinger, Giovanni) * Card tutoring directly to the hand without any drawback is bad. The second best card Sudario Refraction is an action card and always has the chance element of losing three cards you wanted to keep. Short Term: Keep the card as it is. Long Term: Dim down the card by changing the card text/requirement for the card.

CON * Generic recursion. I don't really like this :/ * Game slowdown. "So, I take this card...and this card...and maybe..hmm" * Take one card to your hand, this is really good. I mean, Sudario gives you the chance to lose the card right away again. Maabara for the harbingers puts it on the top of the library after tapping the card twice... Here you just get one card from your ash heap to your hand. Which is especially problematic if you can find ways to just throw everything you have in your ash heap (like liquidation). * Availability. This card is -really- hard to get for new players (check the prices on ebay for a goddamn common card! Also, there really isn't any of them there to buy.) It's actually not "generic" recursion, because that would mean that everyone has access to it. It's "did you play this game while KoT was still in print"-recursion, because if you didn't then you're screwed.

> wastaz wrote: > > I mean, Sudario gives you the chance to lose the card right away again. > No, it's not like that Sudario Refraction Action Giovanni +1 stealth action. Choose three cards in your ash heap and move them to the top of your library. Then discard three cards at random from your hand (and draw up to your hand size afterward).

Okay, guys. Let's come to the poll. I'd put it up like that: a) Card is fine as it is. Let it unchanged. b) All cards retrieved should go to the library, none to the hand. c) Ban the card. d) Change it to only retrieve minion cards. Did I miss something? Should I reword a point? Baron of Frankfurt

Yes. I believe option "only library cards can be retrieved, not masters" is not there. I believe that to be best solution, and i have seen some people back that up.

A)

b) pckvtes.wordpress.com

I don't think the voting started, guys...

PRO The negatives are already built into the card. To not risk losing those card slot you need to stuff more in to be the first to accumulate three. Going off early with three doesn't gain you much back in terms of recursion. Yes, I can see some decks have a field day with it but they are very focused on making that happen. Once again, the issue is Villein in those decks and the effective three or four masters in a turn. Aaron Archbishop Adelaide

PRO I built the "Girls" non-combat deck the swedish Guys were playing to see how it works. First of all I found it very hard to play and win with it. The Ashurs help with survivability, getting a good card from the ash heap and putting the ousting mechanism back into the library. But its not a game breaker. The synergies are very strong, especially with Anthelios/Liquidation. But the two core minions can be beaten easily, in multiple ways. I think the latest metagame made the deck strong also. Many players played biggies or higher midcaps. So only some big bleeds that could be deflected via Aksinya and everybody is playing with Reins of Power/Ancient Infuence/Political Stranglehold. That allowed the deck to develop in the mid- to lategame so it became increasingly stronger. Many players disregard the whole view on the enviroment in which cards can thrive. So I say, Ashurs should stay as they are and not only because of the points I mentioned above, but it does help some combat decks to gain more survivability, even if you need MMPA Vampires. BTW I ousted two "Girls" decks in the EC Day 1 and twice it was done because I could destroy the Anthelios with an Uncoiling. just my 2 cents - Prince of Karlsruhe, Germany

> Erol wrote: > PRO > BTW I ousted two "Girls" decks in the EC Day 1 and twice it was done because I could destroy the Anthelios with an Uncoiling. > Girls are tough but you just need to have the few odd cards in your deck to seriously kneecap them. Like I did to Daniel's Gils deck during FCQ, when I put him to ropes with Trochomancy. No cards in discard pile = no recursion... Finnish Politics!

Neutral- I don't think aushers is the a problem, it is anthelios.

> Lönkka wrote: > > > Erol wrote: > > PRO > > BTW I ousted two "Girls" decks in the EC Day 1 and twice it was done because I could destroy the Anthelios with an Uncoiling. > > > Girls are tough but you just need to have the few odd cards in your deck to seriously kneecap them. > > Like I did to Daniel's Gils deck during FCQ, when I put him to ropes with Trochomancy. No cards in discard pile = no recursion... > Playing an Uncoiling is hardly odd. It's as staple as Dreams, Pentex and Govern. It gets rid of Anthelios, which shuts down the strongest master-based recursion in the game. Anthelios is common as hell and way, way stronger than the whole Ashur/Liquidation engine. Really, Girls will find... is good because of (1) Aksinya and (2) Anthelios. Liquidation is to make sure that (1) it doesn't die in the first few turns and (2) put stuff like Jake and Villein in your ashpile so you can cycle them back with spare Zillah's and the like. The Ashurs are then used later on to get the lost cards back. It's not without reason that this decktype has evolved from 15 or 18 Ashurs back to 6 or 9. Uncoiling also gets rid of Unmasking which is played in pretty much every game. It's a must-play in for/dom based bleed decks (Vignes), Lawfirms, breed-type of decks and basically anything that doesn't sport obfuscate. As a side-bonus it foils those silly table-hate Gehenna decks. Ashurs are fine, really. The whole "problem" that is suggested only exists in the minds of those who don't own 6 or more Ashur Tablets.

> Izaak wrote: > Uncoiling also gets rid of Unmasking which is played in pretty much every game. It's a must-play in for/dom based bleed decks (Vignes), Lawfirms, breed-type of decks and basically anything that doesn't sport obfuscate. As a side-bonus it foils those silly table-hate Gehenna decks. > Unfortunaly in my opinion, it also get rid of Dragonbound, one of the few oust technic for heavy combat deck. Well it's only a problem for people like me that believe very combat-heavy deck should exist, I suppose.

> Sudden wrote: > PRO > > The negatives are already built into the card. To not risk losing those card slot you need to stuff more in to be the first to accumulate three. Going off early with three doesn't gain you much back in terms of recursion. > > Yes, I can see some decks have a field day with it but they are very focused on making that happen. Once again, the issue is Villein in those decks and the effective three or four masters in a turn. > How is villein the issue when half of those dont pack villein at all? Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Ohlmann wrote: > Unfortunaly in my opinion, it also get rid of Dragonbound, one of the few oust technic for heavy combat deck. Well it's only a problem for people like me that believe very combat-heavy deck should exist, I suppose. > Combat decks can do fine without Dragonboned. Fame, Tension, Anarch Revolt, some sideline Presence or Dominate, Codex of the Edenic Grounds Keepers all make combat heavy decks totally viable. I mean, they are never going to be as consistent as S+B or Ventrue Law Firm (or, well, anything with Parity Shift...), which is necessary for the game to work (as if Rush combat was as consistent as S+B or whatever, that's all anyone would ever play and the game would be atrocious). But they can do fine and win tournaments periodically. And Dragonboned, while handy, is hardly something to rely on.

I love Giovanni Recursion tech. However this card did take away the reason to play Giovanni clan or NEC base cards. 2nd I don’t own any Ashur Tablets to even try it out. I think the card is fine, just adding clan requirement of HOS to it and we be golden from Clan background story point of view. I just don’t think that everyone should be able to use Recursion better then "original" Clan.