What do you think is the worst card in the game? And the worst vampire?
I think Tortured confession has to be among the worst cards. It costs one blood, it cant be played unless you send a vampire to torpor in combat and is still ready yourself, and it is much easier ways to let you see someones hand! I would rather free the space for other cards in a combat deck.
I think it sucks!!
Tortured Confession [FN:C2/PG2]
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Only usable when the opposing vampire goes into torpor; not usable by a vampire going into torpor. Combat ends. You may look at the opposing vampire's controller's hand.
Artist: Steve Prescott
Im not sure about the worst crypt card.
Mummify
Strike: combat ends. This vampire untaps and goes into torpor; put this card on the vampire. This vampire cannot attempt a leave torpor action. Burn this card if the vampire leaves torpor.
As above, but this vampire may attempt a leave torpor action.
Why not just use your in-clan presence?
Thanks! That was the card I was looking for.
I think one of the worst is Twisting the Knife.
The worst vampires are easily found. Any 9/10cap group 1 Primogen fits.
> Shadowhunter wrote:
> Mummify
> Strike: combat ends. This vampire untaps and goes into torpor; put this card on the vampire. This vampire cannot attempt a leave torpor action. Burn this card if the vampire leaves torpor.
> As above, but this vampire may attempt a leave torpor action.
>
> Why not just use your in-clan presence?
>
In AH playtesting, the card did also 1 pool damage at . They took that away and forgot to improve the card accordingly...
pckvtes.wordpress.com
I nominate:
Esteem
Type: Action Modifier
Only usable at the end of a successful action directed at the Methuselah with the edge.
You gain the edge.
Rarity: KMW:C
Eyes of the Dead
Reaction
Only usable when a reacting vampire you control attempts to block a vampire who is attempting to diablerize one of your vampires.
This reacting vampire gets +1 intercept.
As above, but with +2 intercept.
All mentioned cards are extremely bad. Twisting the Knife was my first thought too, but Mummify is really ridiculous.
I nominate in addition:
Eyes of the Dead, Reaction, Necromancy,
Only usable when a reacting vampire you control attempts to block a vampire who is attempting to diablerize one of your vampires.
[nec] This reacting vampire gets +1 intercept.
[NEC] As above, but with +2 intercept.
Argh. Only usable vs. diablerie and then only vs. diablerie on vampires you control. And then only granting some intercept without some other effects. I bet this card never saw play, even not in draft tournaments.
Worst crypt card for me:
Patrizia Giovanni, Collector of Secrets
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Giovanni
Group: 2
Capacity: 5
Discipline: nec qui tha
Independent: Patrizia can employ a retainer from your ash heap as an action. The cost of that action is increased by 1 blood.
What a bad discipline spread. And just an okayish special. Looks cool but is crap. Although tha is always good .
Baron of Frankfurt
> Steinar wrote:
> I think Tortured confession has to be among the worst cards.
>
It can be played by anyone torporing a vampire, a feat which isn't too difficult to do, and you obtain, for yourself only, knowledge of their entire hand. It's kinda crappy, but it isn't horrible by any means.
> Baaliprimogen wrote:
> Esteem
> Type: Action Modifier
> Only usable at the end of a successful action directed at the Methuselah with the edge.
> You gain the edge.
>
Again, crappy but not horrible. There are lots of non-bleeding tricks that you can Esteem, and then o something after.
> Dorrinal wrote:
> Eyes of the Dead
>
Now this card is really awful.
But NOTHING compares to...!
Becoming of Ennoia
Event
Gehenna. Do not replace until your next discard phase.
Requires at least two other Gehenna cards controlled by other Methuselahs in play. During each Methuselah's untap phase, he or she chooses a ready vampire he or she controls. The chosen vampire takes 1 unpreventable damage. Earth Meld cards cost 2 additional blood.
A card which is, essentially, unplayable. Not just wallpaper, but UNPLAYABLE.
I've never asked but I believe that this was just an error on the part of LSJ and the playtesters that all missed "controlled by other Methuselahs" and didn't demand that it be removed.
Note that I playtested Gehenna and didn't catch it either, so I'm part of the problem.
In fact:
I now officially ask the VEKN to remove the obviously-mistaken phrase "controlled by other Methuselahs" from this card, so that it is at least PLAYABLE. Thank you.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
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When we play tested tortured confession, it also prevented the tortured vampire from going to torpor. Now THAT was a sucky card. I agree it still sucks though. Also agree about Becoming of Ennoia.
--
salem
I take back what I said about Becoming of Ennoia. Someone just pointed out to me that it was NOT the playtesters who didn't catch the bad wording on BoE, it was LSJ who must have changed it, since the last playtest round of materials has BoE's text as "Requires at least two other Gehenna cards in play."
Which is what it SHOULD say.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017
Tortured Confessions isn't great, but it's hardly useless. Looking at another player's hand can be very valuable at times. If you don't have Auspex or Animalism (or don't want to use Prophecies of Gehenna), you're gonna have a hard time getting such valuable recon. When played at a key point, Tortured Confessions can tell you whether your prey has that Wake or Deflection that might prevent you from ousting him.
Mummify sucks now. But in the *old* days, you could combo it with the old Fame to repeatedly do 3 pool to your prey. It's not fantastic, but you could hypothetically combo it with Faithful Servant or Regeneration.
Esteem has some cornercase uses. It's a way to steal the Edge if you can't get any bleeds through (prey is playing with lots of bounce or reduction). If you're afraid of your prey, it's a way to get the Edge with an action that your prey can't block (directed at your predator or someone cross-table).
Eyes of the Dead is way too cornercase. People often point out how it is much worse than the Deadliest Sin. Though I suppose you could combine Eyes of the Dead with Deadliest Sin for +4 intercept against diablerie attempts! Maybe you'll need it after you play Mummify?
Patrizia is not great but is far from the most horrible vampire. There has been speculation that maybe she was supposed to be a 4-cap. Her discipline spread isn't great, but it's actually gotten better with time due to Anarch cards like CrimethInc.
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
> Joscha wrote:
> All mentioned cards are extremely bad. Twisting the Knife was my first thought too, but Mummify is really ridiculous.
>
> I nominate in addition:
>
> Eyes of the Dead, Reaction, Necromancy,
> Only usable when a reacting vampire you control attempts to block a vampire who is attempting to diablerize one of your vampires.
> [nec] This reacting vampire gets +1 intercept.
> [NEC] As above, but with +2 intercept.
>
> Argh. Only usable vs. diablerie and then only vs. diablerie on vampires you control. And then only granting some intercept without some other effects. I bet this card never saw play, even not in draft tournaments.
>
> Worst crypt card for me:
>
> Patrizia Giovanni, Collector of Secrets
> Cardtype: Vampire
> Clan: Giovanni
> Group: 2
> Capacity: 5
> Discipline: nec qui tha
> Independent: Patrizia can employ a retainer from your ash heap as an action. The cost of that action is increased by 1 blood.
>
> What a bad discipline spread. And just an okayish special. Looks cool but is crap. Although tha is always good .
>
Patrizia is a misprint. She was tested as a .
pckvtes.wordpress.com
Abandoning the Flesh
Not the worst card in the game, really imposible to play. Once you manage to do so, think that one of your vamps has been burnt and you took not much advantage from that.
I've tried myself to play it and once did. It was not worth it XD.
> Amenophobis wrote:
> Patrizia is a misprint. She was tested as a .
>
Even at a 4, she blows. I'd totally play her at 3, though.
> Smaul wrote:
> Abandoning the Flesh
>
If anyone ever tells you this belongs in a Dementation bleed deck, just slap them.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
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some fine examples were given, but IMO this stuff is worth mentioning:
Code of Milan Suspended
Type: Political Action
Requires: sabbat
Requires a Sabbat vampire.
Select the Methuselah with the Edge. If this referendum is successful, that Methuselah burns 1 pool.
seriously?
> dude_PL wrote:
> some fine examples were given, but IMO this stuff is worth mentioning:
>
> Code of Milan Suspended
> Type: Political Action
> Requires: sabbat
> Requires a Sabbat vampire.
> Select the Methuselah with the Edge. If this referendum is successful, that Methuselah burns 1 pool.
>
> seriously?
>
Well, in theory you could have a political deck that uses CoMS to punish a bleed deck by punking them for 1, then Voter Cap'ing it back, etc.
Yeah, pretty much wallpaper as it was printed. Sad.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017
I decided to start in alphabetical order, as there are so many useless cards, next card I think it ain´t worth is:
Channeling the Beast(the best combat card ever)
Really, I'd rather not to replace until combat ends than paying a blood, comparing it to lucky blow.
> Smaul wrote:
> I decided to start in alphabetical order, as there are so many useless cards, next card I think it ain´t worth is:
>
> Channeling the Beast(the best combat card ever)
> Really, I'd rather not to replace until combat ends than paying a blood, comparing it to lucky blow.
>
but Dragos can play this for free! sooooo overpowered
> Smaul wrote:
> Channeling the Beast(the best combat card ever)
>
There is no better combat card for Temptation decks that want their victims to end up in torpor or at least guaranteed empty and hunting.
Going to block your own vampire coming back to bleed you and expect hands for one by both? Ha ha! Two damage to both!
> KevinM wrote:
> I take back what I said about Becoming of Ennoia. Someone just pointed out to me that it was NOT the playtesters who didn't catch the bad wording on BoE, it was LSJ who must have changed it, since the last playtest round of materials has BoE's text as "Requires at least two other Gehenna cards in play."
>
> Which is what it SHOULD say.
>
Funny, we always played it that way. Nobody carefully read what it says at the beginning. For us it was clear it needs two Gehenna cards in play regardless who played them.
Baron of Frankfurt
On the Vampire front, Miguel Cordovera is pretty horrid:
Tremere
Capacity: 6
Group: 5
AUS DOM POT THA
Camarilla: During your predator's minion phase, your predator may burn a pool to untap and take control of Miguel until the end of the minion phase. +1 bleed.
Giving your predator a vampire with four superior disciplines - what are the odds that he doesn't play at least some of those?
Violet Tremain is also pretty bad:
Tzimisce
Capacity: 6
Group: 2
dom pre tha vic
Sabbat bishop: If Violet successfully inflicts at least 2 hand damage to an opposing vampire in a combat, reduce that vampire's capacity by 1 at the end of combat. (A vampire's capacity cannot be reduced below 1).
Sheesh.
On the library side of things, Igoli's Loyalty. What were they thinking?? Giving your prey pool for emptying your own vampire?? It's bizarre. I mean, yeah, coupled with Awe and Voter Cap there's a hint of an idea there, but even then it's usually just a free pool for everyone at the table but you (since emptying with Awe should mean that you get your vote through).
Igoli's not bad. Great at no opposing title tables. And also forces all of another Meth's votes to come to your side. Can't be suddenly screwed by a Scalpel Tongue and the like (such as Irregular Protocol! tee hee, now that's a funny swing card! Smudge Irregular Protocol's your Awe-ing big voter, tee hee!).
Now, besides unplayable cards, which BoE definitely takes the cake on that one, I like to highlight horrible cards that hurt you to play. I'm still trying to scry the secrets about Three Star Cab Company, hitting yourself for 3 pool, vulnerable because it's still a location, and waiting for the "slow ascendance" or delay reaction HG, is mighty questionable to me. However, if I ever played a theme deck, that slow ascendance aspect will be my "Stairway to Heaven" intro...
> Lemminkäinen wrote:
> On the Vampire front, Miguel Cordovera is pretty horrid:
>
> Tremere
> Capacity: 6
> Group: 5
> AUS DOM POT THA
> Camarilla: During your predator's minion phase, your predator may burn a pool to untap and take control of Miguel until the end of the minion phase. +1 bleed.
>
> Giving your predator a vampire with four superior disciplines - what are the odds that he doesn't play at least some of those?
>
I thought about Miguel too. But on the other hand he is a very solid vampire which you can make good use of too. I'm still unsure if he isn't worth it. Bad thing is your predator even can diablerize with him somebody. That would be really bad.
Baron of Frankfurt
I have to agree, Miguel is simply the worst of the bunch... If he could only bleed, he would be bad, but as he can diablerize, Rescue, take d actions gainst everybody... He is never, never seeing any play, i guess even less than Apolonius
As a card, i nominate this awesome political combo of never used cards:
Regaining the Upper Hand, Political Action,
Choose a Methuselah. Successful {referendum} means the chosen Methuselah gets the Edge.
Code of Milan Suspended, Political Action,
{Requires a} Sabbat vampire. Select the Methuselah with the Edge. If this referendum is successful, that Methuselah burns 1 pool.
Haha, what a combo!!!
> Pendargon wrote:
> As a card, i nominate this awesome political combo of never used cards:
>
> Regaining the Upper Hand, Political Action,
> Choose a Methuselah. Successful {referendum} means the chosen Methuselah gets the Edge.
>
Regaining the Upper Hand has its uses in a Form of Corruption deck (especially if your prey is hesitant to bleed because he doesn' want the Edge).
Less useful, but you can also use it to manipulate who ends up with the Curse of Nitocris.
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
> Adonai wrote:
>
> > Smaul wrote:
> > Channeling the Beast(the best combat card ever)
> >
> There is no better combat card for Temptation decks that want their victims to end up in torpor or at least guaranteed empty and hunting.
>
> Going to block your own vampire coming back to bleed you and expect hands for one by both? Ha ha! Two damage to both!
>
I prefer trap in those deck. And this is combo with other serpentis card like thyphonic beast.
> Pendargon wrote:
> As a card, i nominate this awesome political combo of never used cards:
>
> Regaining the Upper Hand, Political Action,
> Choose a Methuselah. Successful {referendum} means the chosen Methuselah gets the Edge.
>
> Code of Milan Suspended, Political Action,
> {Requires a} Sabbat vampire. Select the Methuselah with the Edge. If this referendum is successful, that Methuselah burns 1 pool.
>
> Haha, what a combo!!!
>
While I don't recall playing with Code of Milan Suspended, "dumb" votes can be used to distract from what your deck is really about. I had success with this strategy in the past. In comparison, bad votes are much easier to cycle with less true cost than certain other cards. Better to call a vote that fails to do anything whether it passes or not or bring out an ally that costs 4 pool and does nothing, for instance?
As for Regaining the Upper Hand, I've played it. In one case, where I was playing a deck built around it, my prey Sensory Deprivationed three of my vampires. Neither of us did well that game.
Traveller Card Game
> ICL wrote:
>
> As for Regaining the Upper Hand, I've played it. In one case, where I was playing a deck built around it, my prey Sensory Deprivationed three of my vampires. Neither of us did well that game.
>
Hey, i get the man, you must have been a real table threat, eh??
> salem wrote:
> When we play tested tortured confession, it also prevented the tortured vampire from going to torpor. Now THAT was a sucky card.
>
Yeah, my sentimental favorite for Worst Card Ever is, in fact, Tortured Confessions*. As it isn't just generally bad, but it takes so many words to be bad. And the amount of effort that went into getting it from completely, utterly horrible in playtest to just plain bad was immense (i.e. the amount of verbiage and discussion that went into getting an incredibly monumentally horrible card to become just a very bad one is ridiculous).
(* To be fair, while Tortured Confessions is pretty bad, it is still playable in a lot of decks and does have at least a beneficial effect; there are certainly other cards that are less playable or have less of a beneficial effect. But they also aren't as fun to dislike.)
I think, still, the far and away worst vampire in the game is Miguel Cordovera:
Miguel Cordovera
Tremere
Capacity: 6
Group: 5
AUS, DOM, POT, THA
Camarilla: During your predator's minion phase, your predator may burn a pool to untap and take control of Miguel until the end of the minion phase. +1 bleed.
Unless someone has recently come up with a crazy super cool trick plan for him that I haven't seen yet. Yeah, good disciplines and +1 bleed for 6 capacity. But you also get to give your predator a 6 cap vampire with very good disciplines and +1 bleed for a pool a turn. Yeah, you could pack your deck full of Diamond Thunderbolts (but if you are gonna do that, use Sonja Blue instead, who is a much better deal), but that is simply too much work for a discipline spread that you can get mostly elsewhere without the insane hoop jumping (POT/AUS and POT/DOM are easy at 6+; POT/THA comes on Vauxhaul and Sardenzo as 7 caps, and they both have dominate as well).
All other bad vampires are either just kind of underwhelming (all the G1 guys with +1 strength and +1 bleed; the AH vampires that are just arbitrarily under-disciplined like Judah and Nakova) but still playable or very corner case and require a tricksy deck to make using them worth it, but at least they are generally worth the effort (Sonja Blue). Miguel seems like a bad idea in pretty much any situation. Unless you want to:
A) Put him in play.
B ) Somehow get your predator to play Seeds of Corruption on him.
> Lemminkäinen wrote:
> On the Vampire front, Miguel Cordovera is pretty horrid:
>
> Tremere
> Capacity: 6
> Group: 5
> AUS DOM POT THA
> Camarilla: During your predator's minion phase, your predator may burn a pool to untap and take control of Miguel until the end of the minion phase. +1 bleed.
>
> Giving your predator a vampire with four superior disciplines - what are the odds that he doesn't play at least some of those?
>
(And +1 bleed)
Thanks for the Donation is also terrible.
Name: Thanks for the Donation
Cardtype: Action
Discipline: Dominate
+1 stealth action.
[dom] Put this card into play and choose a card you are contesting with another Methuselah. Your cost to avoid yielding the contested card is now paid by your prey. (You still decide whether you will yield.) Any minion may burn this card as a action.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> bakija wrote:
> Unless someone has recently come up with a crazy super cool trick plan for him that I haven't seen yet. Yeah, good disciplines and +1 bleed for 6 capacity.
>
Play a lot of bounce. He can bleed your prey in your minion phase and he can bleed your prey in your predator's minion phase. When your predator stops taking him, you got a decent vampire for cheap.
Except. The diablerie. In lots of games, someone goes to torpor - whether it's that combat deck pummeling the crap out of people, or whether it's Rufina Soledad blocking Lazverinus's bleed. And then... poof. Redline? Absolution of the Diabolist? Urban Jungle? Repeated Auto-Erotic Nut Punching?
(Warning: one of those cards may not have made it out of playtest.)
I don't know about Thanks for the donation. The effect is not bad on its own, it is just that contesting does not happen often enough. Maybe we could think of some tech to copy (and contest) equipments and locations in play, in the same way Zane copies titles?
Mercy for the Weak.
* 2 Blood.
* Only usable if you have more blood than the opposing vampire. So you can not even use this card in many scenarios where you really need it.
* Can't be played against allies(?).
* Opposing vampire gain 1 blood.
All this for an effect that pretty much all clans have a better version of among their clan disciplines.
> Non-existant user wrote:
> I don't know about Thanks for the donation. The effect is not bad on its own, it is just that contesting does not happen often enough. Maybe we could think of some tech to copy (and contest) equipments and locations in play, in the same way Zane copies titles?
>
It can be burned as a action...
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
> Play a lot of bounce. He can bleed your prey in your minion phase and he can bleed your prey in your predator's minion phase. When your predator stops taking him, you got a decent vampire for cheap.
>
Which is great until, ya know, you run out of bounce and he kills you (having a lot of bounce is a great solution to lots of things your predator is going to try, but giving him an extra guy with DOM and +1 bleed to test the limits of your bounce is unlikely to work out well). Or your predator is playing POT rush combat (oops...). Or they take him and pull all his blood off with Hidelburg (every turn you have him empty and he hunts, and they get him every turn to bleed you and then donate his newly hunted blood to one of their guys). Or, as you note, use him to diablerize someone. Or use him to do something to you other than bleed you but still not great ("He calls an extra KRC!"; "He burns down your location!"; "Ooh! Free Revelations play!").
The risk is simply too high for him to be worth it. I mean, yeah, 6 for a guy with DOM and +1 bleed is great and all, but you can get any of his discipline combos easier for about the same cost, without the horrible, horrible drawback. Really--like, in what kind of deck are you gonna want to risk putting him in for his particular disciplines? The only slightly hard to get discipline pair he offers is POT/THA, and there are two other guys with POT/THA and also dominate who are 7's and *don't* defect every turn (and then enough other guys with POT/tha or pot/THA and also have dominate to build the rest of the crypt out of without needing to use Miguel).
> Non-existant user wrote:
> Bonus question: what do you need POT/THA for?
>
The Cryptic Mission to bloat a vampire / Horseshoe to plink them into torpor deck. It's the craze that's sweeping the nation.
(May contain lies.)
> Non-existant user wrote:
> Bonus question: what do you need POT/THA for?
>
As noted, Torn Signpost/IG/Blood Rage for 5 points of hand damage that can't be prevented by fortitude. Followed up by Rego Motus to prevent damage. Supported by Apportation for maneuvers/presses. And maybe some Rutor's Hand for multi action. And then some Dominate on the side.
Is it gonna sweep a lot of games? Hardly, but it is certainly something that is worth messing around with. Especially if you are in a high combat environment and are tired of getting foiled by fortitude.
Or, what James said. That's awesome too!
> Non-existant user wrote:
> I don't know about Thanks for the donation. The effect is not bad on its own, it is just that contesting does not happen often enough. Maybe we could think of some tech to copy (and contest) equipments and locations in play, in the same way Zane copies titles?
>
It's called Political Seizure. I played against a deck with that combo last weekend and lost about four pool to it.
No thanks for the donation, James Lin*!
*deck author
> Non-existant user wrote:
> Bonus question: what do you need POT/THA for?
>
Immortal Grapple @
Blood Fury/Rage @
Press w/ Immortal Grapple
Range is close (from Immortal Grapple)
Blood to Water @
That empties most people... If you need another strike then go for it... but really at this point it's worth using a Pulled Fangs or a Disarm.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
> Play a lot of bounce. He can bleed your prey in your minion phase and he can bleed your prey in your predator's minion phase. When your predator stops taking him, you got a decent vampire for cheap.
>
I think you hit upon it. He's a disposable shock troop for a wall/teflon deck's mid game. Play with him as one.
LOTS of bounce. Hell, maybe play some Connivers. Villein/Tap him ASAP and leave him at 1 blood. Always use his bleed pressure. Freely risk AIs, chump blocks, or diablerie with him. If you're so worried about Miguel being misused, THA already comes with a built-in escape clause in Burst of Sunlight. He'd be the wanton aggression in a reserved and reactive Tremere deck.
As long as your predator doesn't have Heidelberg before you Tap him down, and there's no vampires currently in torpor, who cares? Get your big cap star out, Govern down, and launch Miguel mid-game scraping off the invested pool ASAP. If your predator decides to punch himself for 1 pool to help flush your bounces (assuming proper heavy reaction deck construction) then let him. He's there to explode then go away.
It's similar to the same issue people had with The Mole (not a top tier card by a long shot, but still useful). People assume players like to hurt themselves to stop/receive conditional stuff, even when you show yourself geared against such. But in my experience, it just doesn't happen as often as one would fear. How often have we seen people go anarch to stop The Mole? I bet far less times than they've gone anarch to avoid Anarch Revolt (which a deck geared as such should also be a warning sign that it's better to burn Revolts away instead).
Roughly the same applies here. Anyone playing Miguel other than a live hand grenade and you with the best deflecting tennis racket might be wasting time. He seems to be there as a means to punch through defenses, not an investment to survive greater than a few turns. And yes of course, there's much better all-around vampires to play than him. But James' direction shows promise...
Put an humanitas on him so he can't diablerize, and the only fear will be the political action he plays, if as mentioned before you have tons of bounce XD.
> Azel wrote:
> Villein/Tap him ASAP and leave him at 1 blood.
>
Your opponent gets him before you have a chance to Villein him. At which point he diablerizes someone and burns himself in the blood hunt. Or rushes you with him (POT and/or THA) and burns himself out killing you. There are an awful lot of things that can go wrong before you can get all the blood back.
And you could be doing the same stuff with numerous 6 caps with DOM or DOM THA or DOM AUS or AUS THA or AUS POT or DOM POT; bring them out, tap them down to 1 blood, and use them recklessly not caring what happens to them 'cause you got all their blood off before doing so. Except all those guys don't get stolen every turn too.
The issue with Miguel isn't necessarily that he has a built in "steal me!" 'cause. It is that he has a built in "steal me!" clause, and there isn't anything significant that he can do that you can't do with another, similarly sized vampire that *doesn't* have a "steal me!" clause. Such that using him is the secret key to a particular strategy or anything. Sonja Blue, for example, has FOR so she multi-acts, she has a built in Villein, and a lot of good disciplines. So making an all Sonja Blue/Diamond Thunderbolt deck is, while still certainly dubious, a worthwhile bit of hilarity. Miguel isn'y giving you anything unique. Yeah, he has 4 superior disciplines, but you can get 2 or 3 of those 4 superior disciplines at a time on any number of other similarly sized minions without the crippling disadvantage you need to worry about. And it is *highly* unlikely that you'll be using him in a AUS, DOM, POT, THA deck. Which is why he's bad more than anything else. If he had some incredibly crazy discipline spread (DEM, POT, VIC, DOM or something) that made for wacky decks, I could see someone going through the effort to make him work. But given the disciplines he has, there is zero reason to do that.
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> Immortal Grapple @
> Blood Fury/Rage @
> Press w/ Immortal Grapple
> Range is close (from Immortal Grapple)
> Blood to Water @
>
> That empties most people... If you need another strike then go for it... but really at this point it's worth using a Pulled Fangs or a Disarm.
>
You'll need something to enable you to play Pulled Fangs or Disarm, otherwise you're likely to trade hand strikes for one. Torn Signpost would work.
Pulled Fangs triggers on doing more damage than the opponent in this round. Blood to Water is a burn blood effect, not a damage effect, and so doesn't work.
Disarm works similarly.
Along similar lines, you can't Taste of Vitae to gain the blood burned by Blood to Water. [LSJ 20000718]
>
> LSJ wrote:
> Since no damage is done by Blood to Water, the blood lost cannot
> be tasted (since, as you note, taste only counts the blood lost
> for damage).
>