New set in 2012

According to an announcement this weekend at the EC in Warsaw, a set of new cards will be released in 2012 (also noted here , in a thread that might need some moderation.) This is great! Question: Will the community as a whole be able to contribute/comment on what new cards will be included? Or will a closed group of experts design and decide? "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

To be honest I hope it is a closed group. If we all discuss on that matter the new expansion would never see light (or at least not befort 2013 I fear). Baron of Frankfurt

If you'd read the starting post of the thread you linked, you'd see that there is a "new card design team" that has been working on new cards. The members of that team are pretty easy deducted if you read Irs Fay's post and then combine it with the moderator list of the card idea subforum.

> Joscha wrote: > To be honest I hope it is a closed group. If we all discuss on that matter the new expansion would never see light (or at least not befort 2013 I fear). > Why? Sure some people, a design team, has to lead this and take the final decisions, but I was thinking something like posting the cards here before deciding "This is the new cards". A community is a resource. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Izaak wrote: > If you'd read the starting post of the thread you linked, you'd see that there is a "new card design team" that has been working on new cards. The members of that team are pretty easy deducted if you read Irs Fay's post and then combine it with the moderator list of the card idea subforum. > Sorry, it was so long ago that thread started, and it has been so clotted with off-topic and semi-off-topic stuff Just wanted to get this clarified. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

I do wonder if there is actually ANYTHING being done to find us a new printing house (ready to pay for the licence). Doubts arrive.

> SLave wrote: > I do wonder if there is actually ANYTHING being done to find us a new printing house (ready to pay for the licence). Doubts arrive. > You mean like WotC, WW, or CCP? Apparently the profit margin is too low for big companies. What would you suggest? This is a total tangent worthy of another thread if you want to pursue it. Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

Is this an official announcement? Because there is nothing on the official website yet. If it is true, I am very disappointed in V:EKN for not having an announcement prepared for the main website the day after the EC.

Problems of a volunteer organization; when life intervenes, then life intervenes... I'm hoping for an inofficial official announcement/progress report on this soonish. Finnish Politics!

> Ashur wrote: > > > Joscha wrote: > > To be honest I hope it is a closed group. If we all discuss on that matter the new expansion would never see light (or at least not befort 2013 I fear). > > > Why? > > Sure some people, a design team, has to lead this and take the final decisions, but I was thinking something like posting the cards here before deciding "This is the new cards". A community is a resource. > After the on-topic discussion and a few messages I've had with people like Ira, the Design Team have had their eye on the cards being proposed in the thread. That is the point where the community has had its chance to input, via our ideas, our collective feedback on those cards, the motivations behind our creations and so on. So, as I understand it, the Design Team having read many of these will have cherry picked ideas and cards then either directly copied them or modified them so that they balance in their opinions. These cards will then be playtested by the chosen playtesting people and another loop of feedback will be given to the Design Team who will then use to create the Final Proof of the cards. In the meantime, I hope there are plenty of artists who have responded to the callout and/or people working steadily at contacting artists who would work pro-bono or for a small commission. I know I have been putting artworks out with full credit (and I probably should have asked each of them if I could use their art, but since I don't plan to do anything more than copy, crop and credit... I assumed they wouldn't mind the publicity). Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > > > Ashur wrote: > > > > > Joscha wrote: > > > To be honest I hope it is a closed group. If we all discuss on that matter the new expansion would never see light (or at least not befort 2013 I fear). > > > > > Why? > > > > Sure some people, a design team, has to lead this and take the final decisions, but I was thinking something like posting the cards here before deciding "This is the new cards". A community is a resource. > > > After the on-topic discussion and a few messages I've had with people like Ira, the Design Team have had their eye on the cards being proposed in the thread. That is the point where the community has had its chance to input, via our ideas, our collective feedback on those cards, the motivations behind our creations and so on. So, as I understand it, the Design Team having read many of these will have cherry picked ideas and cards then either directly copied them or modified them so that they balance in their opinions. These cards will then be playtested by the chosen playtesting people and another loop of feedback will be given to the Design Team who will then use to create the Final Proof of the cards. > > In the meantime, I hope there are plenty of artists who have responded to the callout and/or people working steadily at contacting artists who would work pro-bono or for a small commission. I know I have been putting artworks out with full credit (and I probably should have asked each of them if I could use their art, but since I don't plan to do anything more than copy, crop and credit... I assumed they wouldn't mind the publicity). > I couldn´t agree more.

Just a comment on the size of the set (20-30 cards). That is not enough to fill the gap in Sabbat group 5. Will the next set be library cards only? Is there a plan to get vampires out later?

I just wish they will do some card that will bring this discipline on par with other disciplines. Right now there is no point in playing it other than it's existence on some vampires. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Lech wrote: > I just wish they will do some card that will bring this discipline on par with other disciplines. Right now there is no point in playing it other than it's existence on some vampires. > Black Sunrise? Blood Awakening? Deed the Heart's Desire? Loss? Retain the Quick Blood (with )? Selective Silence? Stackable Strike at the True Flesh? Succulent Vitae? Thin Blood? Blood Sweat is still the best single card for doing lots of unpreventable damage. Blood Clots is surprisingly good (though very underplayed). Lots of disciplines would love to see their own version of Taste of Death. Between CrimethInc, Principia Discordia, Steely Tenacity, and Undue Influence, Quietus also has some of the *best* Anarch effects. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

Excuse me, but none of those is good. Black Sunrise is just a wake, most discipline based wakes are better (eyes of argus, predator communion, sense the savage way, speak with spirits) and offer intercept in many cases. Deed is pre-emptive card that is worse than seduction and have pre-requisites that make it unplayable non-star deck and there is too costly to be worth it. Superior loss is inferior govern or presence +2 bleed. Retain is just weak, and will be weak. Window of blood gain is narrow and celerity cards that cost blood are anyway not worth playing in most cases. It's action that is easy to block as it have just +1 innate stealth. Overall, it's wallpaper. Selective Silence is just weak card, setting range that cost blood to play strike card that cost blood and deal with hitback and combat ends is plain awful combat strategy. Strike is not worth it with immortal grapple and long range combat and resource-intensive melee combat based on quietus. It just give additional damage and prevention is not something you are facing all the time. Succulent vitae is wallpaper. Thin Blood is also wallpaper, require close range to trade 1 blood for 2 blood. Taste of Death is inferior to Breath of the Dragon, lots of diciplines would love to see their own version of breath of the dragon. CrimethInc and Steely are nice, undue is mostly played for its presence effect, principia is wallpaper. Are you seriously arguing that quietus is on the same powerlevel as dominate or presence, or even animalism ? Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Lech wrote: > ...celerity cards that cost blood are anyway not worth playing in most cases. > Oh Blur and Resist Earth's Grasp are just awful I know...

> Lech wrote: > Black Sunrise is just a wake, most discipline based wakes are better (eyes of argus, predator communion, sense the savage way, speak with spirits) and offer intercept in many cases. > Eyes of Argus doesn't untap you (the trick with Black Sunrise is to untap all your guys on a +1 stealth action that you don't successfully block). Predator's Communion can't be used against allies. Sense the Savage Way requires big vampires. Speak with Spirits requires a rare Bloodlines discipline. > Deed is pre-emptive card that is worse than seduction and have pre-requisites that make it unplayable non-star deck and there is too costly to be worth it. > Seduction doesn't prevent your bleed from getting bounced or reduced. > Superior loss is inferior govern or presence +2 bleed. > Comparing it to the best cards in the game isn't very useful. Auspex, Animalism, Celerity, Chimerstry, Fortitude, Necromancy, Obtenebration, Potence, Protean, Serpentis, and Vicissitude would all love an action that costs 1 blood and lets you bleed at +2 at superior. > Retain is just weak, and will be weak. Window of blood gain is narrow and celerity cards that cost blood are anyway not worth playing in most cases. It's action that is easy to block as it have just +1 innate stealth. Overall, it's wallpaper. > Retain is especially good with Celerity cards. I agree it is not as useful for Quietus, but it still has its uses. > Selective Silence is just weak card, setting range that cost blood to play strike card that cost blood and deal with hitback and combat ends is plain awful combat strategy. > Range setting trumps maneuvers. Set range to close and then use for Immortal Grapple. Selective Silence to long guarantees you can play your S:CE (and not be grappled yourself). > Strike is not worth it with immortal grapple and long range combat and resource-intensive melee combat based on quietus. It just give additional damage and prevention is not something you are facing all the time. > If you're not facing Grapple, you can use Weighted Walking Stick and with 4-cap Sajid (or 3-cap Harika with the Path of Blood) play as many Strike at the True Flesh as you want. You never have to worry about long range combat since you can just set range to close with Selective Silence. > Succulent vitae is wallpaper. > > Thin Blood is also wallpaper, require close range to trade 1 blood for 2 blood. > I disagree. They're both good cards. Not amazing, but hardly wallpaper. > Taste of Death is inferior to Breath of the Dragon, lots of diciplines would love to see their own version of breath of the dragon. > Yes, and Breath of the Dragon is worse than Conflagration. So what's your point? Most disciplines don't have access to agg. They'd love something like Taste of Death. Thamaturgy's Burst of Sunlight and Walk of Flame are far worse than Taste of Death. Heck, I was thrilled when they got outferior Flames of the Netherworld (which is still worse than Taste of Death). I was happy with that, rather than complaining about how it's worse than Taste of Death, or worse than Breath of the Dragon, or worse than Conflagration. Animalism has Song in the Dark, which is much worse than Taste of Death. Protean has Body Flare, which is much worse than Taste of Death. And let's not even get into Body of Sun or Mythic Form. Necromancy has Breath of Thanatos and Torment the Soul, which are far worse. > Are you seriously arguing that quietus is on the same powerlevel as dominate or presence, or even animalism ? > No, not even in the slightest. I'm just pointing out that Quietus has some good cards, and that there are some decks worth building. Not every discipline can be Dominate, or Presence or Animalism. (Or Obeah or Temporis for that matter). By definition, top-tier means that there is some sort of hierarchy. If every discipline (or clan) was top-tier, then the term would sort of be meaningless. Quietus has had issues in the past, but it has gotten significantly better over time. In fact, I think it's surpassed Necromancy at this point (which started off strong, but has tapered off significantly). pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> echiang wrote: > > > Lech wrote: > > Black Sunrise is just a wake, most discipline based wakes are better (eyes of argus, predator communion, sense the savage way, speak with spirits) and offer intercept in many cases. > > > Eyes of Argus doesn't untap you (the trick with Black Sunrise is to untap all your guys on a +1 stealth action that you don't successfully block). Predator's Communion can't be used against allies. Sense the Savage Way requires big vampires. Speak with Spirits requires a rare Bloodlines discipline. > > > Deed is pre-emptive card that is worse than seduction and have pre-requisites that make it unplayable non-star deck and there is too costly to be worth it. > > > Seduction doesn't prevent your bleed from getting bounced or reduced. > > > Superior loss is inferior govern or presence +2 bleed. > > > Comparing it to the best cards in the game isn't very useful. > > Auspex, Animalism, Celerity, Chimerstry, Fortitude, Necromancy, Obtenebration, Potence, Protean, Serpentis, and Vicissitude would all love an action that costs 1 blood and lets you bleed at +2 at superior. > > > Retain is just weak, and will be weak. Window of blood gain is narrow and celerity cards that cost blood are anyway not worth playing in most cases. It's action that is easy to block as it have just +1 innate stealth. Overall, it's wallpaper. > > > Retain is especially good with Celerity cards. I agree it is not as useful for Quietus, but it still has its uses. > > > Selective Silence is just weak card, setting range that cost blood to play strike card that cost blood and deal with hitback and combat ends is plain awful combat strategy. > > > Range setting trumps maneuvers. Set range to close and then use for Immortal Grapple. Selective Silence to long guarantees you can play your S:CE (and not be grappled yourself). > > > Strike is not worth it with immortal grapple and long range combat and resource-intensive melee combat based on quietus. It just give additional damage and prevention is not something you are facing all the time. > > > If you're not facing Grapple, you can use Weighted Walking Stick and with 4-cap Sajid (or 3-cap Harika with the Path of Blood) play as many Strike at the True Flesh as you want. > > You never have to worry about long range combat since you can just set range to close with Selective Silence. > > > Succulent vitae is wallpaper. > > > > Thin Blood is also wallpaper, require close range to trade 1 blood for 2 blood. > > > I disagree. They're both good cards. Not amazing, but hardly wallpaper. > > > Taste of Death is inferior to Breath of the Dragon, lots of diciplines would love to see their own version of breath of the dragon. > > > Yes, and Breath of the Dragon is worse than Conflagration. So what's your point? > > Most disciplines don't have access to agg. They'd love something like Taste of Death. > > Thamaturgy's Burst of Sunlight and Walk of Flame are far worse than Taste of Death. Heck, I was thrilled when they got outferior Flames of the Netherworld (which is still worse than Taste of Death). I was happy with that, rather than complaining about how it's worse than Taste of Death, or worse than Breath of the Dragon, or worse than Conflagration. > > Animalism has Song in the Dark, which is much worse than Taste of Death. > > Protean has Body Flare, which is much worse than Taste of Death. And let's not even get into Body of Sun or Mythic Form. > > Necromancy has Breath of Thanatos and Torment the Soul, which are far worse. > > > Are you seriously arguing that quietus is on the same powerlevel as dominate or presence, or even animalism ? > > > No, not even in the slightest. > > I'm just pointing out that Quietus has some good cards, and that there are some decks worth building. > > Not every discipline can be Dominate, or Presence or Animalism. (Or Obeah or Temporis for that matter). > > By definition, top-tier means that there is some sort of hierarchy. If every discipline (or clan) was top-tier, then the term would sort of be meaningless. > > Quietus has had issues in the past, but it has gotten significantly better over time. In fact, I think it's surpassed Necromancy at this point (which started off strong, but has tapered off significantly). > I agree with this. Two other things: -bundi + strike at the true flesh seems good to me, throw in some aditional stikes and you can send a vamp to torpor easily. -after you block, selective silence + taste of death + rotshreck seems good too.

> TorranceCircle wrote: > I agree with this. > > Two other things: > -bundi + strike at the true flesh seems good to me, throw in some aditional stikes and you can send a vamp to torpor easily. > > -after you block, selective silence + taste of death + rotshreck seems good too. > Please don't quote half a page just to say "I agree." It takes up a lot of space and adds nothing to the discussion. There is a Thank You button that you can press if you simply cannot contain yourself. Bundi (or any melee) with Strike at the True Flesh and additional strikes seems much weaker than a .44 Magnum. But you make a good point about Taste of Death. If can be competitive with Chiropteran Marauder and Breath of the Dragon, is Selective Silence + Taste of Death really that bad?

> echiang wrote: > > > Lech wrote: > > Black Sunrise is just a wake, most discipline based wakes are better (eyes of argus, predator communion, sense the savage way, speak with spirits) and offer intercept in many cases. > > > Eyes of Argus doesn't untap you (the trick with Black Sunrise is to untap all your guys on a +1 stealth action that you don't successfully block). Predator's Communion can't be used against allies. Sense the Savage Way requires big vampires. Speak with Spirits requires a rare Bloodlines discipline. > Yet all those cards are more powerful than black sunrise. Untap is good for deflection and enkil cog and as additional wake. It's not bad card but wake is better in certain situations too, and with on the qui vive discipline requiring wake are not big pro for discipline unless they do something special, black sunrise dont do anything special. > echiang wrote: > > > Deed is pre-emptive card that is worse than seduction and have pre-requisites that make it unplayable non-star deck and there is too costly to be worth it. > > > Seduction doesn't prevent your bleed from getting bounced or reduced. > But seduction dont cost blood and they can deflect with any other vampire anyway, it's not 1 acting vampire versus 1 reacting vampire. > echiang wrote: > > > Superior loss is inferior govern or presence +2 bleed. > > > Comparing it to the best cards in the game isn't very useful. > > Auspex, Animalism, Celerity, Chimerstry, Fortitude, Necromancy, Obtenebration, Potence, Protean, Serpentis, and Vicissitude would all love an action that costs 1 blood and lets you bleed at +2 at superior. > Comparing it to just inferior level is useful. Look, it's worse than just inferior level of card, without taking superior into consideration. Animalism have deep song, i don't think it would love to trade it for loss. Vicissitude have changeling, i doubt players would like to trade it for loss. Just like players wouldn't trade nocturn for it. All other disciplines have actions that are better than loss. > echiang wrote: > > > Retain is just weak, and will be weak. Window of blood gain is narrow and celerity cards that cost blood are anyway not worth playing in most cases. It's action that is easy to block as it have just +1 innate stealth. Overall, it's wallpaper. > > > Retain is especially good with Celerity cards. I agree it is not as useful for Quietus, but it still has its uses. > There are many other cards that give you blood, even generic ones, that give more blood at the cost of action. > echiang wrote: > > > Selective Silence is just weak card, setting range that cost blood to play strike card that cost blood and deal with hitback and combat ends is plain awful combat strategy. > > > Range setting trumps maneuvers. Set range to close and then use for Immortal Grapple. Selective Silence to long guarantees you can play your S:CE (and not be grappled yourself). > How many vampires have and ? Let me see, 3. I never seen anyone using ss in deck including them. > echiang wrote: > > > Strike is not worth it with immortal grapple and long range combat and resource-intensive melee combat based on quietus. It just give additional damage and prevention is not something you are facing all the time. > > > If you're not facing Grapple, you can use Weighted Walking Stick and with 4-cap Sajid (or 3-cap Harika with the Path of Blood) play as many Strike at the True Flesh as you want. > > You never have to worry about long range combat since you can just set range to close with Selective Silence. > Strike is free, don't require path of blood. You can use as many as you want, but trading 1 resource for 1 damage is not really worth it, especially considering most widely used combat strategies trump it. Adding additional cards to the combat chain is not very efficient. > echiang wrote: > > > Succulent vitae is wallpaper. > > > > Thin Blood is also wallpaper, require close range to trade 1 blood for 2 blood. > > > I disagree. They're both good cards. Not amazing, but hardly wallpaper. > Good cards ? When compared to mummify they are, compared to other combat cards (thin blood) and blood gain action cards (succulent vitae act nearly as one) they are worse than generic cards like target:vitals and blood tears of kephran. > echiang wrote: > > > Taste of Death is inferior to Breath of the Dragon, lots of diciplines would love to see their own version of breath of the dragon. > > > Yes, and Breath of the Dragon is worse than Conflagration. So what's your point? > > Most disciplines don't have access to agg. They'd love something like Taste of Death. > > Thamaturgy's Burst of Sunlight and Walk of Flame are far worse than Taste of Death. Heck, I was thrilled when they got outferior Flames of the Netherworld (which is still worse than Taste of Death). I was happy with that, rather than complaining about how it's worse than Taste of Death, or worse than Breath of the Dragon, or worse than Conflagration. > > Animalism has Song in the Dark, which is much worse than Taste of Death. > > Protean has Body Flare, which is much worse than Taste of Death. And let's not even get into Body of Sun or Mythic Form. > > Necromancy has Breath of Thanatos and Torment the Soul, which are far worse. > Yep, it's better than some cards out there. Still not saving grace for combat. Also, body flare and burst and walk aren't weaker than taste of death, they have their uses where they are strictly better. > echiang wrote: > > > Are you seriously arguing that quietus is on the same powerlevel as dominate or presence, or even animalism ? > > > No, not even in the slightest. > > I'm just pointing out that Quietus has some good cards, and that there are some decks worth building. > > Not every discipline can be Dominate, or Presence or Animalism. (Or Obeah or Temporis for that matter). > > By definition, top-tier means that there is some sort of hierarchy. If every discipline (or clan) was top-tier, then the term would sort of be meaningless. > > Quietus has had issues in the past, but it has gotten significantly better over time. In fact, I think it's surpassed Necromancy at this point (which started off strong, but has tapered off significantly). > So it's second worst discipline out of 17 core disciplines (i would argue that necromancy is still better as it have access to some great cards like shambling hordes and call the hungry dead). Quietus is sometimes used as vampires with certain traits like clan or special happens to have it. Why would you create deck that is plain inferior to other decks who play in similar way ? Creating decks with quietus is just like it. @TorranceCircle: Why would you ever play bundi ? It's such a weak card. > Dorrinal wrote: > Bundi (or any melee) with Strike at the True Flesh and additional strikes seems much weaker than a .44 Magnum. But you make a good point about Taste of Death. If can be competitive with Chiropteran Marauder and Breath of the Dragon, is Selective Silence + Taste of Death really that bad? > comes with ability to block thanks to in clan. It helps if you can block the actions to play that rot. But even if would have same amount of , it would be way worse. You need to spend 2 cards and 2 blood to play rot, where in case you need one or the other, and is playable under grapple if you have both (and cost 1 less blood). Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Lech wrote: > How many vampires have and ? Let me see, 3. I never seen anyone using ss in deck including them. > Behold! I won a german championship with Thetmes setting close with SS, IG and agg strike! That was before everybody played allies, though Let´s just call Quietus "challenging" and not "underpowered". When you have won so many tournaments with DOM, accept the challenge and go QUI!

> Please don't quote half a page just to say "I agree." It takes up a lot of space and adds nothing to the discussion. There is a Thank You button that you can press if you simply cannot contain yourself. > Ok, I will mark that down sorry I offended you. Also, I think I added two other points, one of which you seemed to think makes sense. > Bundi (or any melee) with Strike at the True Flesh and additional strikes seems much weaker than a .44 Magnum. But you make a good point about Taste of Death. If can be competitive with Chiropteran Marauder and Breath of the Dragon, is Selective Silence + Taste of Death really that bad? > In the post that I quoted, it was responding to Lech saying strike at the true flesh was bad because immortal grapple stops melee weapons (and a .44 for that matter). If I am not mistaken, bundi can be used when grappled and strike at the true flesh prevents fortitude. You do not have to manuever to close, although you may have to maneuver back (unless you use silence of death to set range). If your deck is built to work with melee combat that strikes for 3 with the bundi + SatTF, I wouldn't say it is "much weaker" than .44.

Without playing any other cards, Bundi has all the weaknesses of .44 Magnum, but also loses to other ranged combat. It's inherently less efficient. Bundi makes Strike at the True Flesh better, but SatTF doesn't make Bundi a better choice than .44 Magnum.

> Non-existant user wrote: > Just a comment on the size of the set (20-30 cards). That is not enough to fill the gap in Sabbat group 5. Will the next set be library cards only? Is there a plan to get vampires out later? > Once we get the new expansion thingy rolling, perhaps we'll be getting more frequent, if smaller, expansions. I'm all for smaller expansions. Besides I'm guessing the proccess of getting even this number of cards out will take quite a long time. Just imagine how long it would take if the expansion was the size we've grown accustomed in the past. Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > Once we get the new expansion thingy rolling, perhaps we'll be getting more frequent, if smaller, expansions. > > I'm all for smaller expansions. Besides I'm guessing the proccess of getting even this number of cards out will take quite a long time. Just imagine how long it would take if the expansion was the size we've grown accustomed in the past. > I agree. Sets of 20-30 cards 2-3 times a year would be enough for me. With 10 new Sabbat vamps in each ... that would be ... 4-5 years to fill up group 5-6 with Sabbat vamps ... I will have to think about this twice "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

Instead of making them all at one go, when you put out them a bit by bit you can adjust possible problems found the earlier expansions. Finnish Politics!

[/quote] Behold! I won a german championship with Thetmes setting close with SS, IG and agg strike! That was before everybody played allies, though Let´s just call Quietus "challenging" and not "underpowered". When you have won so many tournaments with DOM, accept the challenge and go QUI![/quote] Grats on the win johannes, Quietus can be challenging combat especially when up against many other forms of combat. I always thought it strange that assamites seemed like they were the combat gods(vampire assassins) in the RPG world of darkness, however sucked ass in vtes (combat wise). Imo they should have had access to an anti strike combat ends card (apart from psyche and hidden lurker). Also used to think taste of death should be used at close range or come with a built in maneuver. Small set or not so big, I'm looking fwds to this new set

> johannes wrote: > > > Lech wrote: > > How many vampires have and ? Let me see, 3. I never seen anyone using ss in deck including them. > > > Behold! I won a german championship with Thetmes setting close with SS, IG and agg strike! That was before everybody played allies, though > > Let´s just call Quietus "challenging" and not "underpowered". When you have won so many tournaments with DOM, accept the challenge and go QUI! > Okay, every deck can win and aggro poke is good against certain archetypes, but i bet your decks have more cards than cards, despite using just on your star vampire. Warning: Spoiler! Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 2 max: 10 average: 5.5 4x Thetmes, Caliph of 10 CEL OBF QUI dom pot 2 votes Assamite:2 2x Badr al-Budur 5 OBF cel dom qui Assamite:2 1x Gloria Giovanni 4 DOM nec Giovanni:2 1x Ingrid Russo 4 DOM for !Ventrue:2 1x Marciana Giovanni, 2 dom Giovanni:2 1x Mustafa Rahman 2 dom Tremere:2 1x Ohanna 2 dom Malkavian:2 1x Samson 2 dom !Ventrue:2 Library [90 cards] Action [11] 7x Clandestine Contract 4x Graverobbing Action Modifier [10] 5x Cloak the Gathering 2x Conditioning 3x Lost in Crowds Action Modifier/Reaction [8] 8x Provision of the Silsila Combat [25] 8x Immortal Grapple 6x Selective Silence 2x Shadow Feint 2x Sideslip 2x Silence of Death 2x Stutter-Step 3x Taste of Death Master [23] 1x Carver's Meat Packing and Storage 2x Contract 1x Depravity 2x Direct Intervention 1x Dreams of the Sphinx 2x Fame 1x Golconda: Inner Peace 8x Minion Tap 4x Storage Annex 1x Visit from the Capuchin Reaction [13] 8x Deflection 1x Delaying Tactics 4x Wake with Evening's Freshness I bet your deck would be nearly just as effective if Thetmes would have no at all. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

Thucimia / black sunrise / Enkil Cog / Loss. 8th with 2 GW 7 in this year's LCQ. Wasn't ousted once. www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?deck=view&id=7644 Challenging, yes. Doubly satisfactory when it works out. Sebastian

> Lech wrote: > 8x Provision of the Silsila > > 6x Selective Silence > 2x Silence of Death > 3x Taste of Death > > I bet your deck would be nearly just as effective if Thetmes would have no at all. > wihtout this deck is useless cause Minion Tap + Provision of the silsila was one of the best bloat engine before Villeins appears. witouh for setting the range and and making first strike is not the same, it'd be harder to send oposing minions to torpor

first strike comes with CEL OBF too, and setting range can be done in conventional manner via Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Tosh wrote: > I always thought it strange that assamites seemed like they were the combat gods(vampire assassins) in the RPG world of darkness, however sucked ass in vtes (combat wise). Imo they should have had access to an anti strike combat ends card (apart from psyche and hidden lurker). Also used to think taste of death should be used at close range or come with a built in maneuver. > Well, not combat gods, but master assassins. Which means they should be able to inflict damage without getting hitback Maybe a card something like this could be nice? Arabian Horseshoes Action 1 blood +1 stealth [qui] Inflict 1 unpreventable damage on a ready minion. [QUI] Inflict 2 unpreventable damage on a ready minion. I think Loss was a much needad, and theme-correct, card for Quietus. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

Why those Assamite freaks change every thread into complaints about quietus??!! They'll never be happy even with <qui> oust the player <QUI> win the game kind of card. Personnally I hope no new cards for qui will be in expansion. It will be small and there is a lot of different disciplines and clans that need help. Same goes for sabbat vampires for groups 5-6. While it would be nice, I think that with 20-30 cards we should hope for cards that will fix some problems with current cards and that will give new possibilities for deck building. Bunch of vampires can't do it. You can just use vampires from different group.

agreed, enough with the whine already on topic - stuff I'd like to see in this set: - some new card on par with villein (or slightly worse), so potential new players can use it and get into the game without throwing bags of cash at people and without bringing proxies to the game; - cards that address current unbalances, namely something to do with Bahari, so being a Bahari is not so cool anymore (and make Lillith's blessing abusers think twice); - some "bridge" vampires, like sabbat g5 etc. And last but not least, please do not, under any circumstances, introduce any cards that are "too good" and "have to be in every deck". It's a tough task you guys have undertaken with this set, so you have my respect for that. I'm anxiously waiting to check out the results.

> dude_PL wrote: > - some new card on par with villein (or slightly worse), so potential new players can use it and get into the game without throwing bags of cash at people and without bringing proxies to the game; > It's the main thing I hope to see too. I have others wishes, but they seem too complex to be done properly in 20 cards.

> dude_PL wrote: > - some new card on par with villein (or slightly worse), so potential new players can use it and get into the game without throwing bags of cash at people and without bringing proxies to the game; > Er. Well. You know that the new cards are, basically, proxies? Printing out cards and putting them into sleeves with copies of crap commons for backing is exactly how we proxied playtest cards, and it's how you proxy the cards from the new set.

> Kushiel wrote: > Er. Well. You know that the new cards are, basically, proxies? Printing out cards and putting them into sleeves with copies of crap commons for backing is exactly how we proxied playtest cards, and it's how you proxy the cards from the new set. > But proxying a card endorsed by VEKN seem fine to me, not proxying any random card because it's out of print.

Proxy = substitute. New cards will be original so they won't be proxies. Granted, their method of printing will be more or less the same as with proxies but calling the upcoming set proxies just confuses the whole matter. Finnish Politics!

ok, in 2012 we will have new set of cards. is good news, but there will be is always the same routine, where the same clan and the same strategies will be favored? or really we will have a change and enhance the clans and sects forgotten?

> Kushiel wrote: > > > dude_PL wrote: > > - some new card on par with villein (or slightly worse), so potential new players can use it and get into the game without throwing bags of cash at people and without bringing proxies to the game; > > > Er. Well. You know that the new cards are, basically, proxies? Printing out cards and putting them into sleeves with copies of crap commons for backing is exactly how we proxied playtest cards, and it's how you proxy the cards from the new set. > There's a vast difference (at least in my world) between a printable "fan-based" (or however we call it) set and allowing proxies for an undecided amount of cards simply because they're not available anymore. V:TES is still a Collectible Card Game and personally I've been collecting all cards I needed since 1996. If I was unable to collect what I needed, I either made a different deck or borrowed the missing cards from my playgroup. Those cards physically exist out there. A VEKN set will not "physically exist" because there's no publisher for the game anymore, therefore delivering printable versions of cards is the only logical way to go. This also gives an option to deliver equivalents of some "on demand" cards. And that's perfectly fine with me.

> dude_PL wrote: > There's a vast difference (at least in my world) between a printable "fan-based" (or however we call it) set and allowing proxies for an undecided amount of cards simply because they're not available anymore. > Okay. My only objection to tournament-legel proxies is that it forces all players to sleeve their decks or lose some degree of competitiveness, so hopefully it makes more sense now why I think it's a bit silly to allow one and not the other. I mean, the new set isn't really a set of "cards," it's a set of "papers." But to each their own.

> Kushiel wrote: > > > dude_PL wrote: > > There's a vast difference (at least in my world) between a printable "fan-based" (or however we call it) set and allowing proxies for an undecided amount of cards simply because they're not available anymore. > > > My only objection to tournament-legel proxies is that it forces all players to sleeve their decks or lose some degree of competitiveness, so hopefully it makes more sense now why I think it's a bit silly to allow one and not the other. > So, for a game you have shelled load´s of €/$ , you are complaining about a pack of shields for your deck? Finnish Politics!

> Vermeulen wrote: > So, for a game you have shelled load´s of €/$ , you are complaining about a pack of shields for your deck? > Do you mean, "Are you complaining about the cost of deck sleeves?" No, I am not complaining about the cost of deck sleeves.

So,what are you complaining about then? Finnish Politics!

> Vermeulen wrote: > So,what are you complaining about then? > The manner by which these cards are being "printed" effectively requires players to sleeve their decks. It's analogous to allowing people who play with VEKN-approved beads to begin the game with 31 pool - it gives them a small edge over players who choose not to use VEKN-approved beads. The effect of this in actual play is greatly reduced by the new set being only crypt cards, since you already know I'm not playing with any vampires from the new Blood-Dimmed Tides set if the first vampire I influence out is Anson, regardless of whether or not my crypt is sleeved. But if future fan sets include library cards, not sleeving becomes more important. Not a huge deal, and not to worry, my panties remain unbunched. But I think that the official announcement of this new set is a good reason to open a serious discussion about why proxies are not going to be allowed in tournament play when the VEKN is already allowing non-WW cards in competitive play.

Succulent Vitae and Thin Blood are wallpaper. They are cards that no one ever use - isn´t that the definition of wallpaper? "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Kushiel wrote: > Not a huge deal, and not to worry, my panties remain unbunched. But I think that the official announcement of this new set is a good reason to open a serious discussion about why proxies are not going to be allowed in tournament play when the VEKN is already allowing non-WW cards in competitive play. > Indeed, if this fan set is considered a success, VEKN will have to make some tough decisions. Especially if that coincides with a greater demand for cards that are OOP.

Before HttB some people argued that is worse than , afterward those people are silent. Coincidence ? @Ashur, most cards are wallpaper. How many combat cards from said combat-oriented discipline is played ? There are 19 cards, people play 2 - selective silence and tod, both of those are mediocre. Out of 13 actions, Loss and Truth of Blood are useful, rest is useless. Only Black Sunrise and Blood Awakening are played form reactions, some decks sports deed of heart desire. And thats it. Quietus don't do anything unique that is worth playing, it's weak in combat, have no good non-bleed actions and don't help in blocking. What is the point in playing quietus then ? It's similar to and that is also useless outside combat, but at least those two are useful in combat. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Ashur wrote: > Succulent Vitae and Thin Blood are wallpaper. They are cards that no one ever use - isn´t that the definition of wallpaper? > I think a better definition of wallpaper is: Dramatic Upheaval Kindred Restructure Memories of Mortality ... and anything else on the Banned List. I may also co-opt many of my mountain of WWEF, Dread Gaze, Tortured Confessions, Stealth Ritus and that host of other cards I have 20+ of, but never really used. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Lech wrote: > It's similar to and that is also useless outside combat, but at least those two are useful in combat. > Good thing Assamites have then. You can have for the actions and action modifiers and not have one of the disciplines redundant. Barring Dominate and Presence, the two bleed disciplines, only Loss (QUI), Truth of blood (QUI/AUS), madman's quill (dem/aus) and force of will (take aggravated damage) are +2 bleed actions. Combining that with one block denial, one seduce/reaction denier and in clan for delivery, quietus comes off as rather beastly. There are actually plenty of viable Assamite decks, it just so happens combat is not one of them. Stop complaining and build a good deck, some clans can't even do that. Lidingö Scourge

is useful, isn't good. In fact, it's worse than and . is decent force multiplier, but without decent source of damage is rather weak - is weak source of damage. Why are you bringing only actions ? Having action modifier that increase bleed is even better, and both / and / have +2 bleed action mods. Not to mention and All those disciplines are useful at inferior level, isn't. Both of block denial effects require higher capacity than blocker, it's SIGNIFICANT issue with both of those. I am not complaining about Assamites, they do rather fine, problem lies in useless quietus. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

Back on topic (praise me, Juggernaut! ), another reason that I'm not particularly keen on the way that this new set is being distributed was crystallized in my mind while reading the thread about proxies. Is the VEKN advertising the existence of the new set anywhere other than here? I really don't know if it'll be an actual issue, but I'm wondering if players who don't regularly read this or other VTES sites will miss the fact that a new set has been released. I'm really not sure how high the visibility of this site is for players who play regular casual games and also attend some tournaments but aren't really invested enough in the game to spend time on the internet in relation to it. (Just to be clear, like the proxies "issue," I think this is a really minor speedbump, but one that's probably worth at least considering.)

> Kushiel wrote: > I'm really not sure how high the visibility of this site is for players who play regular casual games and also attend some tournaments but aren't really invested enough in the game to spend time on the internet in relation to it. > How do they hear about tournaments in the first place? The same channels are likely to buzz about the new set as well.

Yep, if they attend any TWDA tournament, they most likely know about the set. Back to the topic, i don't think that will get more than 1 card, if any. More pressing concerns are creation of G5 sabbat vampires to open new strategies for sabbat and make bloodline G6 tournament worthy. Another is giving sabbat sect cards that make it on par with Camarilla or even Laibon (currently sabbat have fewer tournament worthy cards than Laibon, which is stupid). Last but most important is to create cards that address current multiple-master-abuse, coupled with master card recursion (anthelios, tablets). Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Non-existant user wrote: > How do they hear about tournaments in the first place? The same channels are likely to buzz about the new set as well. > Good point. I have seen it happen fairly frequently that people show up to tournaments and don't know current card texts, which sets have been released recently, etc, and it was specifically those people I was thinking of. No idea where they find out about tourneys in the first place, though I know it's happened at Origins once or twice that someone was passing by and said, "People still play this game?" and end up playing in a tournament.

> Kushiel wrote: > I have seen it happen fairly frequently that people show up to tournaments and don't know current card texts, which sets have been released recently, etc, and it was specifically those people I was thinking of. > It would be good practice for tournament organizers to attach the press release associated with the new 2012 set once it arrives. That way potential attendees would be forewarned and forearmed. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Kushiel wrote: > > > Non-existant user wrote: > > How do they hear about tournaments in the first place? The same channels are likely to buzz about the new set as well. > > > Good point. I have seen it happen fairly frequently that people show up to tournaments and don't know current card texts, which sets have been released recently, etc, and it was specifically those people I was thinking of. No idea where they find out about tourneys in the first place, though I know it's happened at Origins once or twice that someone was passing by and said, "People still play this game?" and end up playing in a tournament. > Yeah but those people even didn't know new sets when they were printed, so what is the point?

> johannes wrote: > Yeah but those people even didn't know new sets when they were printed, so what is the point? > True. Probably the word-of-mouth will be enough press for people who care. I was just curious if there were any plans to promote the set to folks other than the choir, so to speak. Like I said, I doubt it'll matter much, but one of the reasons to print the set is to help new players (I thought it was, anyway?), so I wondered how word was going to get to them about it. Might be that I was conflating "players who are new to the game but play with an established player base" and "a group of people all getting into the game now."

I've already been spruiking it at my FLGS. If the VEKN weren't doing this already... it may be worth making a poster that could be used at FLGS's to let people know there will be a new set. Maybe not every FLGS will be happy about advertising something they can't sell... but maybe they will. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Kushiel wrote: > I was just curious if there were any plans to promote the set to folks other than the choir, so to speak. > Other than Robert Goudie issuing a press release and the Princes putting up a flyer, or otherwise announcing the information, at their LFGS, how and where else *could* the set be announced? Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> Kushiel wrote: > > > johannes wrote: > > Yeah but those people even didn't know new sets when they were printed, so what is the point? > > > True. Probably the word-of-mouth will be enough press for people who care. I was just curious if there were any plans to promote the set to folks other than the choir, so to speak. Like I said, I doubt it'll matter much, but one of the reasons to print the set is to help new players (I thought it was, anyway?), so I wondered how word was going to get to them about it. Might be that I was conflating "players who are new to the game but play with an established player base" and "a group of people all getting into the game now." > The point of the set is to keep the interest in the existing community alive. A 20-30 card set that is fixing some holes of cards that were never printed but should be there will hardly help a new player. VTES is an exclusive club because the game is insanely complex. Stuff for new players would be awesome of course, but I think that will not happen unless some company picks it up. The goal of the VEKN is to preserve as much as possible and hope for someone to come along and publish it again.

> Kushiel wrote: > Is the VEKN advertising the existence of the new set anywhere other than here? > At this years Ropecon (late July) I made an annoucement that a new expansion was being planned and that it was most likely going to be a PDF one. Why? Just to let people know that VEKN does its best to keep the game alive. and because at Ropecon we have the majority of active players in Finland present. This year 90 of them. I dare say that I'm sure that this info was spread amongst playgroups since and there's hardly any local player who doesn't know about it. Finnish Politics!

Same here. I'll also do a Q&A session during this year's National Championship that will verse this and other subjects, like the next years EC, the fact that VEKN has guaranteed support for 2 or 3 years, the plans for our domestic Org Play in 2012 (Qualifier, National and BYOS), welcoming any new players on site, etc... You know, keeping the action going.

> Brum wrote: > I'll also do a Q&A session during this year's National Championship that will verse this and other subjects, like the next years EC, the fact that VEKN has guaranteed support for 2 or 3 years, ... > Where did you hear this? Link, please? Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

I don't think there is an official statement, actually. I do know that during the EC in Warsaw there has been some talking with the NCs (which I'm not so by all means correct me if I'm wrong) about an EC in 2012 AND in 2013, which would imply support for at least another 2 years.

> KevinM wrote: > > > Brum wrote: > > I'll also do a Q&A session during this year's National Championship that will verse this and other subjects, like the next years EC, the fact that VEKN has guaranteed support for 2 or 3 years, ... > > > Where did you hear this? Link, please? > During the meeting in Paris we already had the news that we would have prize support for ECs, NACs and the like for 2 or 3 years. That is what I'm writing about. Also there might be little extras that are being discussed by the NCs and ICs. When details are set in stone, I expect there will be a release of information, either from the NCs or a Press Release. What is important is to confirm the notion that the major tournaments will go on as we know and love for a few years.

Has anyone considered these guys? www.gobretail.com/podcards-pricing.php Pricing seem very reasonable — 45 unique cards, 100 sets for $292.50 (7c per card) with discounts for larger volumes. Worse case scenario groups of us could pool together to print the cards (artwork could be kept on hand) — very achievable. Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook

> Brum wrote: > During the meeting in Paris we already had the news that we would have prize support for ECs, NACs and the like for 2 or 3 years. > News... from whom? Why isn't there a press release about this? Why isn't there a message about this? Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> KevinM wrote: > > > Brum wrote: > > During the meeting in Paris we already had the news that we would have prize support for ECs, NACs and the like for 2 or 3 years. > > > News... from whom? > > Why isn't there a press release about this? > > Why isn't there a message about this? > It leaked to the Press . Besides, all NCs knew about this. I assume they passed the word to their Princes. I know I did (ok, kinda easy when I have only two active Princes).

> ke. wrote: > Has anyone considered these guys? > > www.gobretail.com/podcards-pricing.php > > Pricing seem very reasonable — 45 unique cards, 100 sets for $292.50 (7c per card) with discounts for larger volumes. Worse case scenario groups of us could pool together to print the cards (artwork could be kept on hand) — very achievable. > As it is right now, as far as Iv understood you cant do a thing like this. a) the cards wouldent be legal for tournement play, since they would require, as far as Iv understood, that they are printed on normal paper, and sleeved together with a normal v:tes card. b) this is a fan set, using some fan licens to do it, meaning that there cant be money invloved in producing the cards. If we pay some printing company to print the cards we would be viloating the terms for the fan licens, and then we would be breaking copyright laws, since we would have no licens to produce the cards. Johannes or similar would proberly need to confirm these two points, since historically, my words in here means nothing. /Jesper

> Jesper wrote: > > > ke. wrote: > > Has anyone considered these guys? > > > > www.gobretail.com/podcards-pricing.php > > > > Pricing seem very reasonable — 45 unique cards, 100 sets for $292.50 (7c per card) with discounts for larger volumes. Worse case scenario groups of us could pool together to print the cards (artwork could be kept on hand) — very achievable. > > > As it is right now, as far as Iv understood you cant do a thing like this. > > a) the cards wouldent be legal for tournement play, since they would require, as far as Iv understood, that they are printed on normal paper, and sleeved together with a normal v:tes card. > > b) this is a fan set, using some fan licens to do it, meaning that there cant be money invloved in producing the cards. If we pay some printing company to print the cards we would be viloating the terms for the fan licens, and then we would be breaking copyright laws, since we would have no licens to produce the cards. > > Johannes or similar would proberly need to confirm these two points, since historically, my words in here means nothing. > > /Jesper > I agree with what Jesper says. The cards wouldn´t be tournament legal because we want to discourage that kind of organized production that could bring us in any kind of copyright troubles. I understand that having proper cardstock is nice, but we are walking a thin line with this. People need to be happy with what they get and not try to stretch it The people active in the V:EKN are taking some risk in doing this and I think everybody should appreciate that and not go renegade.

> ke. wrote: > Has anyone considered these guys? > > www.gobretail.com/podcards-pricing.php > There is another one that is mentioned regularly on BoardGameGeek in the DIY Games section. They seem to have ways for people to upload a set of card and card backs into their site and allow for Pay-to-Print for others from that preset package. Artscow www.artscow.com/ Of course, if this falls foul of the current Licencing Agreements, then of course we can't do it. I have to say, I'm hoping that we could have such a product option, but I understand that Hasbro-WoTC & CCP-WW would want a piece of any potential profit action going on with VTES in the future. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> KevinM wrote: > Other than Robert Goudie issuing a press release and the Princes putting up a flyer, or otherwise announcing the information, at their LFGS, how and where else *could* the set be announced? > I've no idea.

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Of course, if this falls foul of the current Licencing Agreements, then of course we can't do it. I have to say, I'm hoping that we could have such a product option, but I understand that Hasbro-WoTC & CCP-WW would want a piece of any potential profit action going on with VTES in the future. > If they wanted a piece of the action, fine. Then we would be producing real VTES sets and pay it. But they want none of that. This will be strictly in the "tolerated only" area, where they could potentially have legal grounds to stop us (even with PDF only) but they see no point if all they gain is annoyed and aggravated fans. But if there is any profit, they will shut it down for sure.

> johannes wrote: > > > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > > Of course, if this falls foul of the current Licencing Agreements, then of course we can't do it. I have to say, I'm hoping that we could have such a product option, but I understand that Hasbro-WoTC & CCP-WW would want a piece of any potential profit action going on with VTES in the future. > > > If they wanted a piece of the action, fine. Then we would be producing real VTES sets and pay it. But they want none of that. > > This will be strictly in the "tolerated only" area, where they could potentially have legal grounds to stop us (even with PDF only) but they see no point if all they gain is annoyed and aggravated fans. But if there is any profit, they will shut it down for sure. > I agree with Johannes. It seems like with this new set, only color printings slipped over an actual VTES card will be allowed (in a sleeve obviously). In fact, it may be beneficial to expressly and explicitly prohibit players from using cards professionally printed on card stock (for those that don't like sleeves). As previously mentioned, this is likely to run afoul of the copyright and licensing issues. So if VEKN expressly prohibits such cards from being used, it gives VEKN greater credibility that it is respectful of the VTES license. (i.e. by VEKN "policing" the player community regarding licensing issues internally, it becomes less likely that WotC/CCP will feel motivated to heavy-handedily enforce their rights). pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> echiang wrote: > > > johannes wrote: > > > > > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > > > Of course, if this falls foul of the current Licencing Agreements, then of course we can't do it. I have to say, I'm hoping that we could have such a product option, but I understand that Hasbro-WoTC & CCP-WW would want a piece of any potential profit action going on with VTES in the future. > > > > > If they wanted a piece of the action, fine. Then we would be producing real VTES sets and pay it. But they want none of that. > > > > This will be strictly in the "tolerated only" area, where they could potentially have legal grounds to stop us (even with PDF only) but they see no point if all they gain is annoyed and aggravated fans. But if there is any profit, they will shut it down for sure. > > > I agree with Johannes. > > It seems like with this new set, only color printings slipped over an actual VTES card will be allowed (in a sleeve obviously). > > In fact, it may be beneficial to expressly and explicitly prohibit players from using cards professionally printed on card stock (for those that don't like sleeves). As previously mentioned, this is likely to run afoul of the copyright and licensing issues. So if VEKN expressly prohibits such cards from being used, it gives VEKN greater credibility that it is respectful of the VTES license. (i.e. by VEKN "policing" the player community regarding licensing issues internally, it becomes less likely that WotC/CCP will feel motivated to heavy-handedily enforce their rights). > I'm pretty sure there is 0% chance for me to get sued by CCP if I duplicate a VTES card in photoshop and have it printed on the exact same paper as a real VTES card in the local copyshop. In fact, in this country it's actually legal to duplicate anything that's copyrighted for my own use and I'd be surprised if this wasn't actually a European Law. As soon as you start selling the things in any sort of noticable quantity and start making profit it's a different thing of course. If I were to choose to continue playing V:TES after this fan-set is released (which seems unlikely, but you never know), I'd make sure to have the new cards printed properly, without this "glue on VTES card" nonsense.

> Izaak wrote: > I'm pretty sure there is 0% chance for me to get sued by CCP if I duplicate a VTES card in photoshop and have it printed on the exact same paper as a real VTES card in the local copyshop. > > In fact, in this country it's actually legal to duplicate anything that's copyrighted for my own use and I'd be surprised if this wasn't actually a European Law. As soon as you start selling the things in any sort of noticable quantity and start making profit it's a different thing of course. > > If I were to choose to continue playing V:TES after this fan-set is released (which seems unlikely, but you never know), I'd make sure to have the new cards printed properly, without this "glue on VTES card" nonsense. > There is a very small chance you will be directly sued; I agree with that. However, depending on the legal status of VEKN in its appropriate jursidictions (legal yada yada yada)... Johannes, the Inner Circle, the Design Team and the VEKN itself could potentially sued into bankruptcy (if the IP-holders get lawyer-nazi on our butts). So realistically, I wouldn't wish that on any of them... Hence why I was checking that the understanding on any licence (if one exists) prohibits third parties gaining profit by the production of VTES cards (e.g. Artscow can't make money from printing them for example because that then represents an organised distribution of the products for profit on Artscow's behalf - even if VEKN won't make a cent) Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Izaak wrote: > I'm pretty sure there is 0% chance for me to get sued by CCP if I duplicate a VTES card in photoshop and have it printed on the exact same paper as a real VTES card in the local copyshop. > > In fact, in this country it's actually legal to duplicate anything that's copyrighted for my own use and I'd be surprised if this wasn't actually a European Law. As soon as you start selling the things in any sort of noticable quantity and start making profit it's a different thing of course. > > If I were to choose to continue playing V:TES after this fan-set is released (which seems unlikely, but you never know), I'd make sure to have the new cards printed properly, without this "glue on VTES card" nonsense. > The concern is *not* about individual players being sued by CCP. The concern is about WotC/CCP filing an injunction against *VEKN* and prevent VEKN from developing any further fan-based VEKN sets. If you want to print out fancy versions of the new cards on quality card stock (heck, you can print out Villeins and Enkil Cogs), and use it for your local, casual games, that's one thing. But it's different when it comes to VEKN-sanctioned tournaments. There may be concerns about whether VEKN is "facilitating" or "aiding and abetting" copyright violations (performed by individual players) which can still incur liability. In many jurisdictions, if you provide materials that you know are likely to be used in an illegal manner, you may face some culpability (and are an easy target for law suits). And even if such use might technically be permitted by a given country's laws, oftentimes it still might not be worth the hassle of potential legal action. Even if (hypothetically) a court might eventually rule in favor of VEKN, we certainly don't have the time and resources to deal with a protracted legal battle. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Izaak wrote: > If I were to choose to continue playing V:TES after this fan-set is released (which seems unlikely, but you never know) > Why would you stop playing? I'm a bit baffled by this. pckvtes.wordpress.com

I have a ton of pics that are shopped and ready for use. All with my permission and the people that are in them. Is there someone I can send a mass folder too and we can talk from there?

> Arthur wrote: > I have a ton of pics that are shopped and ready for use. All with my permission and the people that are in them. > > Is there someone I can send a mass folder too and we can talk from there? > Gines, the art director.

> johannes wrote: > > > Arthur wrote: > > I have a ton of pics that are shopped and ready for use. All with my permission and the people that are in them. > > > > Is there someone I can send a mass folder too and we can talk from there? > > > Gines, the art director. > That's me. Drop me an email with some sample pics. V:EKN Website Coordinator

Read this with some significant trepidation; > - There will be a new, fan-made set created by the V:EKN > - The cards will be tournament legal for constructed tournaments, just like any other set > - The cards will have to be printed out in color on standard paper, cut out properly and stuck in sleeves before an original V:TES cards > No fan based expansion should ever be tournament legal. I am not willing to entrust my favorite game with 17 years invested to 'fans'. Neither should a set made without liscence, nor widely available in actual printed format, nor available publicly at a store, be tournament legal. I play without sleeves. That automatically means my deck can correctly be identified as not using these fan made cards. That means my opponent(s) have information about my deck they should not have. Whoever thought this was a good idea needs to revise their reasoning, because it is hopelessly flawed.

> talonz wrote: > Read this with some significant trepidation; > > > - There will be a new, fan-made set created by the V:EKN > > - The cards will be tournament legal for constructed tournaments, just like any other set > > - The cards will have to be printed out in color on standard paper, cut out properly and stuck in sleeves before an original V:TES cards > > > No fan based expansion should ever be tournament legal. > Why? > talonz wrote: > I am not willing to entrust my favorite game with 17 years invested to 'fans'. > Why? > talonz wrote: > Neither should a set made without liscence, nor widely available in actual printed format, nor available publicly at a store, be tournament legal. > Why? > talonz wrote: > I play without sleeves. That automatically means my deck can correctly be identified as not using these fan made cards. That means my opponent(s) have information about my deck they should not have. > Lots and lots of people are going to play without sleeves. I'm going to play almost every deck I own without sleeves, because I have no intention of changing their composition. In the decks in which I play with the new cards, the "identification knowledge" will be such that it'll be as useful as knowing what cards I was playing with in 1994 when only Jyhad existed. In other words: not so much. > talonz wrote: > Whoever thought this was a good idea needs to revise their reasoning, because it is hopelessly flawed. > Why? Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

wasn't LSJ pretty much a fan who was brought on board to design for White Wolf? if you play without sleeves, someone with a keen eye can already tell a lot about your deck's composition. Jyhad and 3rd Edition cards stick out like a sore thumb. carefully studying the colors and clarity of the card backs can give information about which expansion set it was printed in. printing quality varied wildly, though subtle enough to not be a big deal for most everybody.

> Haze wrote: > If you play without sleeves, someone with a keen eye can already tell a lot about your deck's composition. Jyhad and 3rd Edition cards stick out like a sore thumb. carefully studying the colors and clarity of the card backs can give information about which expansion set it was printed in. printing quality varied wildly, though subtle enough to not be a big deal for most everybody. > There are seven (some say eight) distinct card backs. Given a few moments, I can tell the difference. Other than a couple of known French players that I was told by EVERYONE were cheaters, I've never heard of a single cheating VTES player, so this likely doesn't matter anyway. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> talonz wrote: > I play without sleeves. That automatically means my deck can correctly be identified as not using these fan made cards. That means my opponent(s) have information about my deck they should not have. > So when you play with Jyhad crypt cards, your opponents know you're playing group1-2 vampires. Same issue. (except that, if you play with sleeves, they won't know if you do or don't have Jyhad crypt cards or paper prints before cards)

> KevinM wrote: > Other than a couple of known French players that I was told by EVERYONE were cheaters, I've never heard of a single cheating VTES player, so this likely doesn't matter anyway. > Long retired, thankfully. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> talonz wrote: > Read this with some significant trepidation; > > > - There will be a new, fan-made set created by the V:EKN > > - The cards will be tournament legal for constructed tournaments, just like any other set > > - The cards will have to be printed out in color on standard paper, cut out properly and stuck in sleeves before an original V:TES cards > > > No fan based expansion should ever be tournament legal. I am not willing to entrust my favorite game with 17 years invested to 'fans'. Neither should a set made without liscence, nor widely available in actual printed format, nor available publicly at a store, be tournament legal. > > I play without sleeves. That automatically means my deck can correctly be identified as not using these fan made cards. That means my opponent(s) have information about my deck they should not have. > > Whoever thought this was a good idea needs to revise their reasoning, because it is hopelessly flawed. > Well then you are lucky. Becouse no one can force you to do that, or want you to force you to do that. You, and your play group can play how ever you want. However, you should know, that _my_ favorite game, that I have invsted in over the last 17 years, right now how no commercial foundation, it have a player runned organization, runned by players. You do however need to follow the rules, if you want to play in this organizations events. It is entierly up to you, to organize events, not v:ekn sanctioned, how can use what ever rules you want to. You could even make you own banned list and erratas. As of right now, I am VERY happy (and so are ALOT of other players) happy that v:ekn tries to keep the game alive and tries to keep the player base interested, for a company to hopefully see that there is a stable and loyal playerbase. /Jesper

> talonz wrote: > I play without sleeves. That automatically means my deck can correctly be identified as not using these fan made cards. That means my opponent(s) have information about my deck they should not have. > If you come to my tournaments I'll lend you a pack of sleeves if you can't afford them. Baron of Frankfurt

> Pascal wrote: > > > talonz wrote: > > I play without sleeves. That automatically means my deck can correctly be identified as not using these fan made cards. That means my opponent(s) have information about my deck they should not have. > > > So when you play with Jyhad crypt cards, your opponents know you're playing group1-2 vampires. > Same issue. (except that, if you play with sleeves, they won't know if you do or don't have Jyhad crypt cards or paper prints before cards) > This can be expanded to 3-rd edition cards, or any set that has a slightly different colour-scheme. You are giving away information any time you play without sleeves. Btw, if you like your cards to get worn, more power to you. pckvtes.wordpress.com

> Haze wrote: > Jyhad and 3rd Edition cards stick out like a sore thumb. > I tend to prefer the cheap, clear sleever -sometimes called soft sleeves. Often when I'm using 3rd Edition cards in it I play them upside down. Finnish Politics!

> Joscha wrote: > If you come to my tournaments I'll lend you a pack of sleeves if you can't afford them. > The issue is not affording them. I don't play with sleeves on my decks. As I don't like not being able to shuffle decks with sleeves on them. And I don't like that decks in sleeves occasionally stick together. And fall over. A lot of people don't use sleeves on their decks. I'm not taking a stand one way or the other on this here idea to produce a new set of cards that you can only use if you are playing with sleeved decks; I'm not a big fan of the idea, personally, but I realize that we are just doing the best we can (although, really, isn't there at this point some sort of reasonable print on demand technology that makes cards? There might not be). But being dismissive of people who point out that this isn't an optimal plan with crap like this is just insulting to everyone involved.

> bakija wrote: > although, really, isn't there at this point some sort of reasonable print on demand technology that makes cards? > As we all know there is. But as most of us know, you included I'm sure, we can't do that due to IP and all that... Yeah, don't really like it myself either but that's the way it is. Finnish Politics!

> bakija wrote: > A lot of people don't use sleeves on their decks. > How many % is a lot? On the EC with roughly 200 player I have seen maximum 10 people w/o sleeves. 5% is not "a lot". Also note that the new cards will not be stuff that can/must be used in every deck. Most of them will be vampires, I guess sleeving your crypt is a non-issue, and the rest will be specific. So maybe once in a while you will have to sleeve a deck which does not strike me as a very tough penalty for having new cards. Or don't play them, there are 3500 other cards that will make plenty of good decks. I think the sleeve issue is being overdramatized a lot. It is a non-issue to me. B)

> johannes wrote: > I think the sleeve issue is being overdramatized a lot. It is a non-issue to me. B) > Yeah, seriously. I don't know how much it would cost to print cards on cardstock but you can get a pack of 100 quality sleeves for something like 5 euros. Sleeves has got to be the cheaper option.

> Suoli wrote: > > > johannes wrote: > > I think the sleeve issue is being overdramatized a lot. It is a non-issue to me. B) > > > Yeah, seriously. I don't know how much it would cost to print cards on cardstock but you can get a pack of 100 quality sleeves for something like 5 euros. Sleeves has got to be the cheaper option. > Well the point of Peter is that he PREFERS playing without sleeves for other reasons than the cost. I get this point but I feel that it doesn't really matter in the greather scheme of things.

> johannes wrote: > Well the point of Peter is that he PREFERS playing without sleeves for other reasons than the cost. I get this point but I feel that it doesn't really matter in the greather scheme of things. > Heh, that's what I get for posting under influence.

> johannes wrote: > How many % is a lot? On the EC with roughly 200 player I have seen maximum 10 people w/o sleeves. 5% is not "a lot". > I suspect that it is a continental/cultural issue; in the US, plenty of people don't play sleeved decks. I'd conservatively guess that, like, half the people playing VTES that I run into don't use sleeved decks. Of my consistent playgroup of around 10 people, not a single person uses sleeves on all their decks. Most people don't use sleeves on any of their decks. One person regularly sleeves decks. When going to big, regional events, I'd say about half the people playing use sleeved decks. > Also note that the new cards will not be stuff that can/must be used in every deck. Most of them will be vampires, I guess sleeving your crypt is a non-issue, and the rest will be specific. > Yeah, to be fair, conversely, most people around here *do* sleeve their crypts; the difference between Jyhad and VTES backed crypt cards is a lot easier to pick out, and sleeving 12 cards (as opposed to 90) seems much more reasonable and less inconvenient. And being able to instantly pick out your crypt from your library is a definite advantage to doing this. > So maybe once in a while you will have to sleeve a deck which does not strike me as a very tough penalty for having new cards. Or don't play them, there are 3500 other cards that will make plenty of good decks. I think the sleeve issue is being overdramatized a lot. It is a non-issue to me. > Again, it is an inconvenience to people who don't like to sleeve their decks. I don't think it is the end of the world or anything. And, again, is probably the best we can do. But still, isn't nothing.

> bakija wrote: > > > Joscha wrote: > > If you come to my tournaments I'll lend you a pack of sleeves if you can't afford them. > > > But being dismissive of people who point out that this isn't an optimal plan with crap like this is just insulting to everyone involved. > The poster stated he is on a disadvantage when not using sleeves because everybody can tell he doesn't use the new cards. I think if you are really bothered by this than just use sleeves. Or live with that minor disadvantage, if it really is one. Maybe that was a bit harsh. But I use sleeves for eons now and have no issues with shuffling, keeping my deck on the playing surface without toppling it over and with sticky cards. Maybe that's why I can't understand that concerns. Baron of Frankfurt

> Joscha wrote: > Maybe that was a bit harsh. But I use sleeves for eons now and have no issues with shuffling, keeping my deck on the playing surface without toppling it over and with sticky cards. Maybe that's why I can't understand that concerns. > And that's you. Lots of folks don't use sleeves. And I can certainly understand someone thinking that this is a sub-optimal solution, rather than figuring out a way to get cards actually printed. Again, I don't think this is the end of the world. Or even actually worth worrying about that much (as it is doing the best that we can do). But the issue with using sleeves is simply not one of cost. And dismissing it as such is ridiculous.

> bakija wrote: > > > Joscha wrote: > > Maybe that was a bit harsh. But I use sleeves for eons now and have no issues with shuffling, keeping my deck on the playing surface without toppling it over and with sticky cards. Maybe that's why I can't understand that concerns. > > > But the issue with using sleeves is simply not one of cost. And dismissing it as such is ridiculous. > I thought it over and now know what annoyed me. It seems that there are always people complaining about something unfair or disadvantegous to them. And when you give them a solution, they tell you, that they don't want that solution and what is bad about it. Often enough it is because some cards are too good or too bad. And if you give them hints about how to alter their decks to counter the evil card they yell "no, that makes my deck unfocused and I cannot give away space for those countercards". This short discussion reminded me of that experience. The poster stated he doesn't like it if others know he does not use the new expansion. People gave the hint using sleeves solves the problem. He said no, he doesn't like that solution. Just live with the disadvantage (if it really is one)/problem if you don't like the (simple) solution. Baron of Frankfurt

> Haze wrote: > wasn't LSJ pretty much a fan who was brought on board to design for White Wolf? > The difference is just that...he was offically brought on by the company producing it. Here we have effectively a bunch of fans getting together and saying 'lets make new cards' which any hack in their basement can do, and then foist them off (electronically!) on the tournament community via their association with the vekn. Unliscended, unprinted, not widely available to the gamestore public, forcing people to play with fully sleeved decks, etc. Apologies to those involved, but this is utter crap. I dont want cheapass pdf cards polluting my game. > if you play without sleeves, someone with a keen eye can already tell a lot about your deck's composition. Jyhad and 3rd Edition cards stick out like a sore thumb. carefully studying the colors and clarity of the card backs can give information about which expansion set it was printed in. > I dont play with jyhad cards, and 3rd edition cards if turned the right way are not identifiable at a glance. Anyone staring closely at every players hand and library every turn should be called for stalling. Or just committed, because that is crazy. And you ignore a key point....your counterpoint only matters for those cards visible. IE: portions of a players hand and the top card of his library. (Asheap being redundant here, being already revealed). Having jyahd/third/whatever cards in the rest of your deck are not revealed. But not having these new pdf cards *anywhere* in your deck *are* revealed simply by not playing with sleeved decks. That is simply wrong on principle that any portion of my library is given away because of an out of game consideration. IIRC, you cant actually show cards out of play to your opponents (unless required to by card/gameplay), and this pdf card idea requires you to do that or spend time and money sleeving your deck. > Well the point of Peter is that he PREFERS playing without sleeves for other reasons than the cost. I get this point but I feel that it doesn't really matter in the greather scheme of things. > Johannes, I think there is one peson here who plays with sleeves. At the norwes qualifier I attend nearly every year, that ratio rises only slightly, iirc. I dont like sleeves for many reasons. Shuffling, slideoff, topover, sticking together, time, space in deckboxes/closet storage, weight, money, feel, look, etc. I actually dislike seeing people playing with sleeves on their cards, especially the silly artsy ones, as even that cheapens the game for me. I *want* to see 'Vampire' on green or brown marble cardbacks every time I play damnit. I would gladly pay the cost of new, actually compatiable print cards over sleeves any day. New cards are great. This implementation of them are bad. Make the pdf if you want, even distribute it. But dont allow them to be tournament legal. Nothing that is not an actual vtes card should be legal in that environment. Think about it. This is a very slippery slope we are being taken to here. Where does it stop? How long before the next set of pdf cards? Or the one after that? At what point does vampire become unrecognizable due to a glut of pdf cards invented by joe blow the vtes fan? Do not let this happen vekn, please.

How is a free download not widely available?

> johannes wrote: > How is a free download not widely available? > Where? Here? How many people do you think traffic this site? How many people traffic gamestores, online or otherwise? Do you not think the gap of vtes players between either group is vast?

> talonz wrote: > > > johannes wrote: > > How is a free download not widely available? > > > Where? Here? > > How many people do you think traffic this site? > > How many people traffic gamestores, online or otherwise? > > Do you not think the gap of vtes players between either group is vast? > About a 1000 people REGISTERED on this site. The rest will learn quickly by mouth to mouth. I think much more people are informing themselves about VTES online than in game stores. An out of print game is dead to game stores, except maybe a few. Yes the gap is vast but in the other direction.

> 6.1.1. Set Restrictions > > The tournament organizer may limit players to the use of one or more card sets. For example, the tournament organizer may require players to restrict their decks to cards from the Dark Sovereigns and Final Nights card sets. The tournament organizer must advertise any card set restrictions prior to the event. All cards will be required to use the most recent card texts even if the revised card text appears in a set not allowed in the current event. Example: In an event restricted to the use of the V:TES base set, the Master card "Misdirection" would still tap only one minion. > > Note: Sanctioned tournaments conducted with card set restrictions will not have their results included in the V:EKN player ratings. > If the availability of the new VEKN issued cards is problem, local Princes and tournament organizers can just restrict the sets allowed to WotC/WW printed cards. The VEKN issued ones will be considered some type of different set. Problem solved. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

Johness, you are kidding yourself if you think those numbers mean anything. Take my local riders forum for instance. Nearly 500 registered. Maybe a dozen are regular posters. Now with only twice that number, you think this site is reaching the global playerbase??? You are in denial. I doubt that anymore than 3 of my players (including myself) even know this site exists. But all my players attend or did attend the local gamestore were we play. Jeff I know that tourney option. I am a former prince (and basically still am in all but offical vekn listing). I guarantee you it wont stop players from showing up for an event and saying 'wtf...' when they first see a pdf card in play. That, I dont want happening. Now having said all this, let me propose a possible solution to all my own problems. Because I most certainly would love actual new cards and want this game to continue and even thrive. First make VEKN a not for profit organization, or registered club or what have you. Next, take dues, donations or contributions. Third, go print the cards! Then distribute as promo cards, at no cost to princes, to distribute amongst their player groups. If the cards are given away, they cant stop us. Instead of 'faceless' dues or donations, we could use www.kickstarter.com/ or the like for each set. Nothing gets printed until our 'club' can cover the cost. Any holes in that?

Yes, the company who would be printing the cards would be violating copyright laws, and we would be the ones who made them do it. Ofcouse the 1000 players here arent every player outthere, but truth be told, they are a huge part of why vekn eksists. I still meet players who dident even know the game have had a second rise, and no we arent making this for them. We are making this for the players who are attending vekn sanctioned tournements, there is _nothing_ wrong with you, or anyone else starting another player organization up, I wouldent recomend it, but noone stops anyone from doing that, making your own srt of rules. Heck you could make pto playable and ban villien if that what you want. As for now, I would suggest that you come to terms with the understanding that the game is dead in the companies eyes and only lives on as long as we, the players, make that happens. /Jesper

> talonz wrote: > I doubt that anymore than 3 of my players (including myself) even know this site exists. But all my players attend or did attend the local gamestore were we play. > So why are you keeping this website secret from them? > talonz wrote: > First make VEKN a not for profit organization, or registered club or what have you. Next, take dues, donations or contributions. Third, go print the cards! Then distribute as promo cards, at no cost to princes, to distribute amongst their player groups. > > If the cards are given away, they cant stop us. > If you are so sure, I believe that the VEKN would welcome your not-for-profit organization taking the lead in collecting monies and printing cards, as well as you being able to fight the legal battles from Hasbro which are certain to ensue for patent violations. > talonz wrote: > Any holes in that? > Assuming you have the legal resources to fight Hasbro in court, none that I can see. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

A couple things; -i doubt the printer in china cares. -i doubt hasbro cares. -i doubt they would even know! Anyways, VEKN is proposing to create and distribute, electronically, derivative works. Essentially isn't VEKN already breaking copyright law with the pdf intended for printout and use with the game? How do basement authors get away with printing and distributing fan fiction for instance? How is this any different? Is the difference the use of vampire and deckmaster trademarks on the cardbacks....? If so id say print them without that. Which would mark them, which people already accept apparently, so what is so different between them and all these easily marked cards people exclaim to be able to spot? Honestly I think given the contact info and enough funds, we could print this set and nothing would happen. Even if hasbro noticed, and even if they cared, the worst we get is a cease and desist order? So then someone somewhere else prints the next set....

> talonz wrote: > At what point does vampire become unrecognizable due to a glut of pdf cards invented by joe blow the vtes fan? > Fun fact: This set is being designed by a group of extremely high-caliber, veteran VTES players. Many previous sets were designed by one guy who mostly didn't play the game. I see that you really like the corporate authority backing previous sets, but from a purely pragmatic perspective, that legitimacy doesn't mean shit when it comes to card design. I thought that LSJ designed a lot of good cards, and a lot of funny bad cards, but insinuating that this new set is going to be bad because it's not designed by him is nonsensical. At least wait until you see it before you start bitching about the quality of its design.

> Fun fact: This set is being designed by a group of extremely high-caliber, veteran VTES players. Many previous sets were designed by one guy who mostly didn't play the game. > I can guarantee you that being a good player doesn't make you a good designer. A good designer makes a reasonably good player. It's certainly true that Ira and whomever else moderates the card idea forum can suddenly end up as brilliant card designers, but them being good players in no way guarantees that. > At least wait until you see it before you start bitching about the quality of its design. > If you're not gettting criticized, that doesn't mean you're doing great. Talonz is just being vocal about things, but I know a few players in my area that also hate this new PDF set because they simply don't think VEKN is up for the job. They're just not saying it on these forum because they believe it's falling on deaf ears anyway. I personally hate the thing with PDF crap, but have just accepted it to happen, with the likely result of two of the three Dutch VTES communities disappearing. I can imagine the same thing happening in other countries. I'm unconvinced VEKN has the player backup to make this a success, but at this point it just seems to be "let's get along with it and hope it works out". That said, one thing that may be a factor is that it's actually not too common knowledge who is designing the cards and what authority they have. Ie, I feel VEKN might at the moment not have the community backup it needs to succeed. (Take note that this is not my personal feeling towards VEKN as I think - other than the new set shit - they are doing a good enough job given the state the game is in) As much as I appreciate the things VEKN is doing, there are a lot of things that should be done in addition if the community as a whole is to accept VEKN as the new WW/CCP. Just some examples of things that are nibbling on VEKN´s credibility towards the community: * There is still no announcement on the front page about a new set. All we have is a forum thread, not even started by a VEKN IC member and Johannes' announcement at the welcome party of the EC. * There is still no new ranking system online yet. Supposedly it's "almost done" but it has been for months and the "real life" excuse and "volunteer" words have been coming up a lot. This may all be the case, but maybe at some point it's time to then step down and have someone else take over? * The online rulebook still hasn't been formatted/linked as well as it was when WW hosted it. This is a minor nuisance, but Damnans promised to fix it close to 6 months ago "when he had the time". Again, if you don't have time to do VEKN volunteer work, don't do it and find someone else. * Online presence. You're going to need to communicate with the fans. Update the website. Post announcements. And very importantly, don't get involved in heated forum discussion and don't pick sides in arguments. The old UseNet group would regularly be full of discussions and bitching how WW was doing so bad with the website and updates and yet the EXACT SAME thing is happening here on VEKN. I understand that if you know Johannes, Eric or Gines personally you are fully confident in how things will end up going, but ya know, only a tiny percentage of the players know them.

> Izaak wrote: > If you're not getting criticized, that doesn't mean you're doing great. Talonz is just being vocal about things, but I know a few players in my area that also hate this new PDF set because they simply don't think VEKN is up for the job. > How would they know if VEKN is "up for the job"??? > Izaak wrote: > They're just not saying it on these forum because they believe it's falling on deaf ears anyway. I personally hate the thing with PDF crap, but have just accepted it to happen, with the likely result of two of the three Dutch VTES communities disappearing. I can imagine the same thing happening in other countries. > Why would the players' current decks in the Dutch community -- or ANY community -- suddenly become unplayable after a PDF set was printed? If they hate the idea of the PDF set so much then they don't have to play with it. > Izaak wrote: > I'm unconvinced VEKN has the player backup to make this a success, but at this point it just seems to be "let's get along with it and hope it works out". > Why are you unconvinced? > Izaak wrote: > That said, one thing that may be a factor is that it's actually not too common knowledge who is designing the cards and what authority they have. Ie, I feel VEKN might at the moment not have the community backup it needs to succeed. > What is your definition of success and/or "to succeed"? Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> Izaak wrote: > > * There is still no announcement on the front page about a new set. All we have is a forum thread, not even started by a VEKN IC member and Johannes' announcement at the welcome party of the EC. > * There is still no new ranking system online yet. Supposedly it's "almost done" but it has been for months and the "real life" excuse and "volunteer" words have been coming up a lot. This may all be the case, but maybe at some point it's time to then step down and have someone else take over? > * Online presence. You're going to need to communicate with the fans. Update the website. Post announcements. And very importantly, don't get involved in heated forum discussion and don't pick sides in arguments. > Some of your points are well taken, and are similar to some of the things I have thought as well. But consider that being very negative makes people want to ignore even your good suggestions ( this from an also negative person...) VEKN should publish a regular newsletter. I think one every four months would be okay. It should go on the front page on this site. It doesn't have to be long, just a few paragraphs talking about what's going on, if anything. Official announcements should not be only be made on forum threads. There should be a central location for news. I know VTES players have got into the habit of having to do internet searches to find information about anything, but it may be time to move away from that. Since VEKN is a volunteer undertaking, people should be realistic about what can be accomplished, including VEKN themselves. That's true about any project undertaken. For instance, creating and maintaining a ratings system is a huge task, one which ate up a lot of Robyn Tatu's life, I believe. It's a big project. If VEKN is having a problem with it, or doesn't feel it's feasible with current manpower, OK, just publish an update.

geez you people are complaining like the new PDF set is going to be all Imbued cards ... oh whoops, I spoiled the secret surprise

> Aaron wrote: > > > Izaak wrote: > > Some of your points are well taken, and are similar to some of the things I have thought as well. But consider that being very negative makes people want to ignore even your good suggestions ( this from an also negative person...) > > > I wonder where this negativity comes from? > pckvtes.wordpress.com

> Izaak wrote: > * There is still no new ranking system online yet. Supposedly it's "almost done" but it has been for months and the "real life" excuse and "volunteer" words have been coming up a lot. This may all be the case, but maybe at some point it's time to then step down and have someone else take over? > Would it be a good idea to contact the person behind the rankings system personally, and offer him some help? Like, "I've got some extra time, what can I do to help you out?" It might be just me, but isn't voluntary work just that: if you have the time and energy, what's stopping you from actually asking the higher ups if they'll let you work on something? The Newsletter would be a perfect target for people wanting to help. Newsletter need people to write the stuff, work on the layout, produce the .pdf:s, gather information about what's going on... What I'm saying, is that people seem to have a lot of time to rant. Maybe use that time to help out? "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

> Izaak wrote: > * There is still no new ranking system online yet. Supposedly it's "almost done" but it has been for months and the "real life" excuse and "volunteer" words have been coming up a lot. This may all be the case, but maybe at some point it's time to then step down and have someone else take over? > Sure. Please point someone out to take over. I'd be more than happy to let ANYONE take care of the rating who is capable of doing it. And I have asked many times for it. We do have new guys on it since a couple of days, but they are just getting started.

> talonz wrote: > Johness, you are kidding yourself if you think those numbers mean anything. Take my local riders forum for instance. Nearly 500 registered. Maybe a dozen are regular posters. Now with only twice that number, you think this site is reaching the global playerbase??? You are in denial. > That is what the V:EKN does, actually. Every NC should repost what he deems important from here to his local forum. Every prince should be here and keep track and report back to his local playerbase. Not all of them do, but most. I have always assumed that this is a good enough way to distribute information to as many players as possible. If we adopt your position that all we do on this website is futile we might just as well stop doing it. That means no more RTRs, no more EC/NAC (because how will people know about it), no more forum where people can discuss. This game is having a difficult time already with production being stopped. The goal of the VEKN is to keep it alive as much as possible. Opinions may differ on how to do that, but angry ranting is not helping anybody. Constructive suggestions are, and they are certainly not falling on deaf ears. For example I have immediately taken up two of Izaak´s suggestions: - We will create an announcement section on the website ASAP - Starting on 01/01/2012 there will be a quarterly update from the VEKN to their members. I have already started doing this inside the NC base, but I´ll extend it to everybody.

Thank you Johannes! As the NC of Sweden I stalk these forums alot and link all neccesriy information to the princes and players in Sweden. I then trust my players and princes to bring this knowledge along. We all try to do our best with the channels we got. At least in here in Sweden the players are happy with what the vekn does. Ofcourse everybody doesn't agree to every all the time 100%. But an internal discussion is very healthy, I think. Me and the princes are in the middle of make on big list of the e-mail to every player in Sweden and use the for spreading information. Im also about to start a vtes website for Sweden. All this I can recommend to other princes and NC's. And if your not a prince and/or NC try to make them do it. Or offer them to make it for them. It's great! And it brings the players togather. Just some though. Enough rambling from me! Isak Esbjörnsson Bjärmark

> Haze wrote: > geez you people are complaining like the new PDF set is going to be all Imbued cards > > ... oh whoops, I spoiled the secret surprise > Oh, please. Everyone who's anyone in VTES knows that the new set is the long-awaited, hotly anticipated Blood-Dimm'd Tides.

> Izaak wrote: > I personally hate the thing with PDF crap, but have just accepted it to happen, with the likely result of two of the three Dutch VTES communities disappearing. I can imagine the same thing happening in other countries. > I cannot understand why people should react that way. If somebody thinks PDF is bad I can live with that point of view. But when I like the game I don't give it up because of that. Wha they just don't play with the new cards in that "communities"? And they will bear it if they encounter those cards at a tournament, aren't they? Baron of Frankfurt

Even though we don't agree on the new set issue, Izaak, thanks for your excellent suggestions. We have made as much of it as was possible a reality today and have taken all others in and are processing them. On the new set, I suggest just wait for the previews and then take a fair stance to judge the quality. I have the high hopes that this will be as good as everything that was ever printed. While we are lacking manpower in the rating programming department we have a good team assembled there for the design. I think you will learn more about them in the designers diary section, new on the website. Which they have agreed to fill on a regular basis.

Seriously Kevin, what are you trying to accomplish with these pedantic one-liners? I'm probably wasting my time even trying to discuss things with you, but I'll bite anyway; > How would they know if VEKN is "up for the job"??? > They wouldn't. And that precisely the problem. They are like "ok, who on earth are VEKN and what the hell gives them the power to dilute the game with dumbass photocopies"? > Why would the players' current decks in the Dutch community -- or ANY community -- suddenly become unplayable after a PDF set was printed? If they hate the idea of the PDF set so much then they don't have to play with it. > I don't know how things are over in Vegas but here in Holland we basically have three active playergroups of about 7-12 people strong and then there's a few randoms spread over the country just playing some tournaments. Our tournaments are usually 20-25 strong, with 18-20 of the attendents from aforementioned playgroups and the last 2-7 from Germany or Belgium. Of those ~30 active Dutch players I know 10 that absolutely hate the PDF cards and have zero intention to play with them and do not wish to play agaisnt them *solely* because they are fan-created PDF's. You will probably call this crazy or irrational or whatever other childish stamp you will put on it but this is the reality. That means that these players will simply stop attending tournaments and as a result stop playing. > Why are you unconvinced? > Because, ya know, I talk to people that play the game. Apparently everything is flowers and candy over in Nevada, but it's not in Europe. As you may be aware I was in Warsaw a month ago playing proper VTES at the EC and the *majority* of the people I spoke to about the PDF set were skeptical at best. > What is your definition of success and/or "to succeed"? > My personal definition of "success" is irrelevant. > I cannot understand why people should react that way. If somebody thinks PDF is bad I can live with that point of view. But when I like the game I don't give it up because of that. Wha they just don't play with the new cards in that "communities"? And they will bear it if they encounter those cards at a tournament, aren't they? > No, they will not, as I elaborated above. > On the new set, I suggest just wait for the previews and then take a fair stance to judge the quality. I have the high hopes that this will be as good as everything that was ever printed. While we are lacking manpower in the rating programming department we have a good team assembled there for the design. I think you will learn more about them in the designers diary section, new on the website. Which they have agreed to fill on a regular basis. > As I posted, I accepted the new PDF crap as reality. Until proven otherwise, I have good fate in the actual game-effect of the cards because I think Ira (whom I actually never spoke to) has an insanely good grasp on the game as a whole and Ben is, ya know, Ben. I'm still extremely against bullshit 80 gram-paper-glued on proxy shit I'll be forced to play against. > Sure. Please point someone out to take over. I'd be more than happy to let ANYONE take care of the rating who is capable of doing it. And I have asked many times for it. We do have new guys on it since a couple of days, but they are just getting started. > You should be well aware of an alternative, as I offered you -personally- right after the NC meeting at the EC 2010 in Paris to: a) Take a very good look at the Archon and make better tableseatings for the obvious problematic tournament sizes (them being anything smaller than 15, 21 and 29-37 from top of my head) b) Help out in designing a new -and better- ranking system. Making a ranking system that's working is hard. Programming it in php with an upload script is trivial. You told me my help was not needed at that point in time and you'd get in touch if it was. You never did, which is fine, but ya know, we're 13 months into the future and nothing happened.

> Kushiel wrote: > I see that you really like the corporate authority backing previous sets, but from a purely pragmatic perspective, that legitimacy doesn't mean shit when it comes to card design. I thought that LSJ designed a lot of good cards, and a lot of funny bad cards, but insinuating that this new set is going to be bad because it's not designed by him is nonsensical. At least wait until you see it before you start bitching about the quality of its design. > Several issues here; -who apointed these designers -what did they do to get this position (legitimacy as you point out, doesnt come from player background either...I hope there was an actual process of 'design a new card, explain why this new card is needed, what it addresses, what problems it creates and how it can be countered' etc. Without which, these designers have been given carte blanche purely on their player experience. I did not insinuate the new set will be bad. I did insinuate that the whole process is not transparent enough, with no apparent quality control, no legitimate support, and will not be accepted by the general playerbase due it being a 'fanbased' and in cruddy pdf format. Izaak expanded on this greatly, but my fear is that what playerbase I have may in part disapear once these print cards hit the tables. And tournament attendance will suffer as a result. In short, it may have the very opposite effect to what we desire.

> johannes wrote: > That is what the V:EKN does, actually. Every NC should repost what he deems important from here to his local forum. Every prince should be here and keep track and report back to his local playerbase. Not all of them do, but most. I have always assumed that this is a good enough way to distribute information to as many players as possible. > Again, you are in denial. I dont know who our NC is. The national forum I knew of was always dead when I was a prince. There are no active princes in bc right now. VEKN has 0 visibility whatsoever from what I can see, but for the 1 player besides myself that alerted me to this 'new set'. > If we adopt your position that all we do on this website is futile > *sigh* strawman, come on now. Remember this is in response to your statement that a set posted on the vekn websight is suitable visibility. > Opinions may differ on how to do that, but angry ranting is not helping anybody. Constructive suggestions are, and they are certainly not falling on deaf ears. > I suggest you reread my very lengthy post on why this printed pdf tournament official set is bad then. Or my post on actually printing cards, or the one on how anyone thinks a print pdf is not in violation of copyright laws anyways....please by all means comment on those.

Talonz: You don't have a NC. Do you wanna be a Prince? Do you want to contact the Canadian Princes and choose a NC? Although I don't agree with anything you said here, I think you show interest and passion for the game. Maybe, in your area, it's really up to you. Create a mailing list or a blog. Gather your players and talk with them. What communication means did you have before to get news about VtES? White Wolf page and forum? This one is much better. How did you get publicity of VtES? Now anyone can get in touch with everyone at VEKN. You're concerned with Marketing? You don't see your concerns addressed by this thread? You can contact the Marketing Director. He's not some executive in an office that ignores you. That was before. Same thing for every aspect of the game. About the worries that the expansion will suck because it is fan-based: If you started playing during the White Wolf era, besides card ideas and rulings, EVERYTHING ELSE that was relevant was fan based work. By pretty much the same fans that are in charge now. Very few people changed. So, you have the same thing, with more availability, more transparency, more control and where your voice is more important. How come that's bad? How would you change it?

> Izaak wrote: > > > How would they know if VEKN is "up for the job"??? > > > They wouldn't. And that precisely the problem. They are like "ok, who on earth are VEKN and what the hell gives them the power to dilute the game with dumbass photocopies"? > Most of the same people as before. Only now their Princes and NC have more information and more say in things. Too bad they choose to miss inform the Dutch players and leave the Netherlands out of the loop and out of the discussion. Tell your worried players the only real change in personal was LSJ for Floppy. Oh and tell them too that bad quality photocopies will be illegal, although I have no knowledge about the "dumbass" technology. Is it a Phillips invention? The game will not be deluded by the new set. It will generate interest and the cards will be free and open to all. It is necessary to be in .pdf / html format. Besides the physical format, everything is like before for you guys, since you very clearly had no idea how things happened before. I think that something is amiss here, because you guys have good players that travel to foreign countries to play and you also receive foreign players. I don't buy that you guys don't know what was going on before and that now you are very surprised with VEKN and what we do. You claimed to be in Paris for the EC - how come you left with such an odd knowledge of how things work?

> talonz wrote: > I suggest you reread my very lengthy post on why this printed pdf tournament official set is bad then. Or my post on actually printing cards, or the one on how anyone thinks a print pdf is not in violation of copyright laws anyways....please by all means comment on those. > Sorry for being a smart ass, but may I the suggest you dig out the trizillions threads already been on the topic, explaining what we can and cant do? That you take a v:ekn based set and just throw it around as a "fan produced set" kinda shows your view on vekn, or missing what vekn is. It have always, even in WW times (but I would agree that it was muddy at that point) decided what was legal in tournements and what wasent. Im also kinda offended that you take your nation and your views and throw them around as thats the way it is everywhere. And as Iv stated once before, and gladly do it again. NO ONE is forcing you to play by vekn rules. Thats only if your interested in vekn tournement (which you seems like you arent, since you dont even seems to care about what vekn is). /J

> Izaak wrote: > As you may be aware I was in Warsaw a month ago playing proper VTES at the EC and the *majority* of the people I spoke to about the PDF set were skeptical at best. > I must've been talking with aa different set of people there, but my feel to this was absoluteöy opposite. When at Finnish ECQ (Ropecon, 90 plrs) I announced that VEKN was in the progress of doing an expansion, which was most likely going to be published as PDF, I got the feeling that players were mostly really pleased as well as happy that the game wasn't going the way of dodo. Organizationwise I think we are currently in better position than ever. As official support/contact is lost from WW/CCP we are forced to do everything ourselves. This means we are in even more in control than previously. With vekn.net and especially this forum the information flow is better than ever. I'm optimistic about the game and its future! Finnish Politics!

> talonz wrote: > > > Haze wrote: > > wasn't LSJ pretty much a fan who was brought on board to design for White Wolf? > > > The difference is just that...he was offically brought on by the company producing it. > LSJ was not appointed by anyone. He took it upon him to archive rulings and answering questions. He was recognised by players as kind of an authority regarding rules. The VEKN prosed him to WW as they took over from WotC to be lead designer and rules representative. At that point, WW carefully listened to the VEKN as they represented the players. > talonz wrote: > Here we have effectively a bunch of fans getting together and saying 'lets make new cards' which any hack in their basement can do, and then foist them off (electronically!) on the tournament community via their association with the vekn. Unliscended, unprinted, not widely available to the gamestore public, forcing people to play with fully sleeved decks, etc. > > Apologies to those involved, but this is utter crap. > > I dont want cheapass pdf cards polluting my game. > When I first read your posting I was wondering what kind of drugs you are on. Maybe you just had a bad day, that's all, and you are in fact a very nice person. First off, I find it amazing that you didn't know that the VEKN is now in charge of VTES. This has been so for the last 16 months or so. This central website was created to have a central place to cater to the players, with room for announcements, a forum to discuss and links and downloadable stuff. The start of this website was announced on all the "major" forums out there (the NG, WW forum, BGG and others). We have an Inner Circle of the VEKN who are doing a good job, and a chairman who is very competent and cares for this game, as has been shown in the past by the tremendous support "Walch&Nusser" gave to the community. Other out-of-print games also have "fan-based" sets, so I guess it was a logical decision to go this route when all other avenues were barred. What works for other games can not be too bad for us, can it? You are insulting a lot of players who are devoting a lot of time and effort into making things run. I find this quite rude. If you and your players cannot be bothered to visit "the" central resource for VTES (now that the game is no longer in print) and check what's going on and giving opinion, it is clearly not the fault of the VEKN or the players that do voluntarily work for it. And again, you didn't even bother to read the threads wherein was discussed that any other form of publishing is not possible at all. By not making profit in any way, the companies are unlikely to sue the VEKN. In the past, LSJ has been designing the sets (mostly) on his own. Now there is a team. I don't see that as a drawback. A team is able to see more different approaches to weaknesses and problems. I hate being the one to tell you this: most likely you are being the jerk here. If you want to contribute to the game and the community, stop being so negative. If you have constructive criticism and you present it in a civil manner, others will listen. Heck, Johannes already took some of the points in this thread and acted upon them. Btw, if there is no NC in Canada, and you seemingly care a lot about the game, step up and apply for the job. There is nothing stopping you and you can present your ideas in a much better way, and at the same time you can inform your players much more accurately what is going on, and tell them to visit this website. Hope to have you on board soon. B) pckvtes.wordpress.com

> talonz wrote: > > > johannes wrote: > > That is what the V:EKN does, actually. Every NC should repost what he deems important from here to his local forum. Every prince should be here and keep track and report back to his local playerbase. Not all of them do, but most. I have always assumed that this is a good enough way to distribute information to as many players as possible. > > > Again, you are in denial. I dont know who our NC is. The national forum I knew of was always dead when I was a prince. There are no active princes in bc right now. VEKN has 0 visibility whatsoever from what I can see, but for the 1 player besides myself that alerted me to this 'new set'. > Let me put it this way: I know it works for the most countries that have a significant number of active V:TES players. It is sad to hear that it doesn't work for Canada (if I figured correctly your nation). But that is certainly not the fault of the VEKN but of the Canadian players. Go ahead gather your princes and agree on a NC. He can try to organize a national forum and make the right moves to keep people interested into VTES in Canada. If I check the player registry which has quite old data from the glorious days of white wolf I see 5 people with ANY rating at all. That means Canada has been giving a shit about VEKN sanctioned tournaments for years. So why do you go nuts about new cards that only affect VEKN sanctioned tournaments when you apparently are not interested in them at all?

I personally find the notion of a new set to be quite positive, i'm banking on the experience and competence of the vekn team to bring their years of wisdom into the game. If one is a skeptic, then let us wait for the 1st set to come out before you start criticizing people. Go VEKN!

> Izaak wrote: > Of those ~30 active Dutch players I know 10 that absolutely hate the PDF cards and have zero intention to play with them and do not wish to play agaisnt them *solely* because they are fan-created PDF's. > That argument is nonsense. The cards of the previous sets were playtested by the same people who design the new cards now. The playtesters helped in designing new cards a lot. The process now is more or less the same. The only difference is that now Ben Peal is the leading person instead of LSJ. Is that a reason to stop playing? Does that mean the set has to be bad? I'm sure that everybody in this forum would appreciate it very much to have *real* cards instead of a PDF. But IT DOESN'T WORK. We have been through this already often enough. If your playgroup/the dutch community really wants to play with old cards only for the next couple of years (what I strongly doubt, sorry, I'd be glad to hear of some other players from the Netherlands) that doesn't mean that we all have to. PDF is the only option at the moment so rather have that than nothing. Baron of Frankfurt

Let haters hate everything. Suffisent people will be happy to see that kind of initiative, let's let other people play as they want. If they hate the PDFs because they can not more go to VEKN-sanctioned event, then somehow they admit that VEKN is not just a fan organisation ; other than that, this will not affect them.

> That argument is nonsense. > And precisely this attitude is another reason why the "fuck it" mentality is there. The way I look at it is this: change nothing, the game continues and slowly dies out eventually. Release fan sets and you split the playerbase into two not neccesarily equally sized groups and the game dies out a little bit faster. I mean, ye sure VTES lived through the first torpor phase, but that was in a time there were like 300 cards, CCGs were hot and games were for nerds. I don't think we'll be here organizing ECs and NACs 5 years from now so why would you want to lose players just so all the stayers can play with 25 new crypt cards. > I'm sure that everybody in this forum would appreciate it very much to have *real* cards instead of a PDF. > I doubt it. There are enough players that want to play with freaking proxies in the name of leveling the playing field. > But IT DOESN'T WORK. We have been through this already often enough. > We don't know this. This whole legality issue has been blown way out of proportion. I'm perfectly allowed to have my shitty PDF cards printed on good paper and give them VTES backs. Plus, it's not like ANYONE will ever find out. I'm also perfectly allowed to have this done for every player I play with and just charge them whatever the copyshop charges and will in fact do exactly this in an attempt to keep people playing. Princes and NCs are perfectly allowed to run into a copyshop and have 500 of each card printed and then sell them to their local playgroups at cost. Yes, PDF is more convenient but in this era of digital intellectual properties, I seriously doubt you're breaking more copyrights by actually printing the shit and shipping printed cards (at zero profit) than you do by putting PDFs online for everyone to download. > If they hate the PDFs because they can not more go to VEKN-sanctioned event, then somehow they admit that VEKN is not just a fan organisation ; other than that, this will not affect them. > If alienating players is your goal, then these kind of responses are exactly what you need. Keep 'em coming.

Izaak, I ask you to have your Dutch players voice their fears and reservations regarding the upcoming expansion here. Where it really matters. They may have arguments that others have not considered yet. Or they might get convinced that such an expansion will not be so bad at all. Who knows? pckvtes.wordpress.com

> Izaak wrote: > If alienating players is your goal, then these kind of responses are exactly what you need. Keep 'em coming. > Explain what is alienating in that, because it escape me. As you say, a lot of the dutch player think that VEKN is a fan organization without autority. So why exactly do they care if they do something they don't like provided they are not impacted ? You talk like you and other dutch player recognize the VEKN as being an important organisation, but don't like its decisions. It's not the same at all than dismissing it as some independant bad fan movement.

> The way I look at it is this: change nothing, the game continues and slowly dies out eventually. Release fan sets and you split the playerbase into two not neccesarily equally sized groups and the game dies out a little bit faster. > I think you just missed the third option: thx to vekn releases the game will continue and maybe even grow. For me trying to do something is much better than doing nothing in this situation. And I can see no reason why existing of pdf expansion could do any charm if it would be designed by professionals which is a case. Personally, I think, it will be the most thought-out and balanced release in vtes history

I personally find it you dismizz Izaak's fears too easily. I for one is not interested in having VEKN develop cards in general, and not releasing a PDF set in particular. I fail to see how releasing another set is going to attract new players. Allowing fan-made cards from some people but not others is hardly intuitive to new players or those out of the loop. It's far easier to just play with real cards released by WOTC/WW. I believe the burden is on the VEKN to prove 1) How releasing the new set is going to end up with a net gain of (active) players and 2) What sort of void the new set is going to fill.

> Cyrus wrote: > Allowing fan-made cards from some people but not others is hardly intuitive to new players or those out of the loop. > But then again, the proponent of the initiative does not believe thoses to be "fan-made card". They believe that, since the one who design thoses cards were the ones building and testing official set, and since VEKN is for them the official body, that already do erratas and tournaments, the set is official, not fan-made. Also, the set seem not targeted at new player. It seem targeted at avoiding stagnation and death of the game. That's different.

> Ohlmann wrote: > But then again, the proponent of the initiative does not believe thoses to be "fan-made card". They believe that, since the one who design thoses cards were the ones building and testing official set, and since VEKN is for them the official body, that already do erratas and tournaments, the set is official, not fan-made. > > Also, the set seem not targeted at new player. It seem targeted at avoiding stagnation and death of the game. That's different. > I can't speak for other playtest groups, but the one I was in (for several expansions) didn't really do anything I would call "building" or "designing" the sets. I'd call it fine tuning, not creating. In my mind there's a big difference between the two, I consider myself rather good at trying out new cards and finding strengths, weaknesses, weird rule stuff and things like that. I would not want to even try creating cards from scratch, and decide what discipline/clan/sect should get them. It's possible that other playtest groups (the ones including the creators of this new set, for example) did more than my group though. That others did help LSJ to actually create the cards, and not just change them slightly. Just wanted to put that into the discussion here, since I've seen a few posts talking about how the current creators were involved in creating previous expansions as well and I'm not sure if they were involved in the actual design or if they (like me) just helped adjust the power level of the cards. Either way, I'm not sure if that really matters. Even if their experiences from playtesting are the same as mine, that does not at all mean the new cards will be horrible. I have some small fears for the new cards, as always when a new set is about to be released. However, I do think that the playtesting will be more thorough than earlier. Partly because I imagine the current design team feels a heavier burden than LSJ did. Not that LSJ didn't care for the game or took it seriously, I love what he did. But the new team is just that. New. This usually leads to smaller, safer steps, being a bit more nervous and doublechecking stuff. I'm guessing the new cards will end on the lower end of good rather than the high end, and I think would be good. My only real fear, personally, is for the new set to include cards like Villein/Vessel. Cards that punishes other cards by name or function too hard. I've seen a lot of card suggestions like that in the forums, and my thoughts are that broken cards should be fixed by errata or banning, not by releasing cards that hurt the current top tier decks. Other than that I don't really see how some 30 new cards could ruin this game. And if those new cards actually do end up ruining the game, there's always the option to ban them or revoke the use of them in tournaments (or of course, if everyone else thinks they're great your group can just not use them and enjoy casual games).

> talonz wrote: > Several issues here; > > -who apointed these designers > -what did they do to get this position (legitimacy as you point out, doesnt come from player background either...I hope there was an actual process of 'design a new card, explain why this new card is needed, what it addresses, what problems it creates and how it can be countered' etc. Without which, these designers have been given carte blanche purely on their player experience. > I think you missed the point of my post, which is that LSJ's status as a part-time employee of WW didn't somehow make him a better designer. Just like the current designers, he was only some guy doing his best. I'm guessing that you didn't do any playtesting or work on storylines or otherwise interact with WW in any way; suffice it to say that they weren't exactly doing anything beyond the bare minimum to support the game, when it came to its design. It was basically outsourced from the time they switched to the NWOD, if not long before. So claiming that lacking the white wolfprint logo is going to somehow affect the quality of the new cards just doesn't make sense.

> Izaak wrote: > The way I look at it is this: change nothing, the game continues and slowly dies out eventually. Release fan sets and you split the playerbase into two not neccesarily equally sized groups and the game dies out a little bit faster. > Then get you facts straight. We (the "fans" that have been doing 85% of the work in this game for years!) give you numbers and facts. There are case studies of CCG's that lost support from companies and started operating completely by fans. Some of our "fans" studied this phenomenon. Compared numbers in their events before and after fans took over, talked with players and the new organizers, talked with CCP to see EXACTLY the extent of what could be done and the limits in use of their Intellectual Property, saw the do's and don'ts that other hobbies in our position did over the years. Apart from the ratings system, everything that could be done by VEKN (and specially by the Inner Circle) to keep this game alive and it's players playing COULD NOT BE DONE BETTER. Period. This is a fact. You know why? Because we can compare. Because we study and learn from other examples. You have no idea how awesome this page is and will be. You have no idea how awesome this whole community is. You have no idea how lucky we are to have these "fans" to work out our problems and reach a solution that is certainly the best for us all. And by the way - you have no idea how talented these "fans" are. Besides Scott, I have no doubt that the people here are more competent than the CCP executives and office staff. In fact, many things work better now that we don't have the hassle of incompetent staff that make decisions without caring for the game or it's community. Without new sets, much more people will leave the game. It happened with other games. What is this VtES thing? It's a game that combines the use of cards and skill in an awesome setting and complex strategy. These discussions of "paper prints VS real cards" or "opaque sleeves VS no sleeves" have NOTHING to do with the game itself. These are discussions about handwork and crafts. > Cyrus wrote: > I personally find it you dismizz Izaak's fears too easily. I for one is not interested in having VEKN develop cards in general, and not releasing a PDF set in particular. I fail to see how releasing another set is going to attract new players. Allowing fan-made cards from some people but not others is hardly intuitive to new players or those out of the loop. It's far easier to just play with real cards released by WOTC/WW. I believe the burden is on the VEKN to prove 1) How releasing the new set is going to end up with a net gain of (active) players and 2) What sort of void the new set is going to fill. > We don't dismiss nobody here. In fact we are entertaining his every whim. Even the insulting ones. Ok, you start by a preconceived notion: you're not interest in new cards done by VEKN. But I'll give you the same attention I give everyone because I think all points of view are useful. Specially because our forum Icons are the for the same thing, except mine is 1000 years older. a. New expansions are specially good to keep the interest of current player bases. Those who like the game allot enjoy new toys to play and keep interest. Multiple CCG's in our situation have this experience. If you are not aware of this, please take into account that many people here who are experienced, know what they are doing and love the game too. b. Why only some people get to choose what cards to release? Everyone can give ideas (improvement to how things went before) and those who are objectively better at that, will choose cards to be tested by the same people as before. The design team is almost the same as before. They are not the top ranking players and have not been for years (besides Ben Peal). So the notion that they are the best players is a myth. Fact is that they are the best developers. For years they have been working in things like the acclaimed Players Handbook, designing the pre con decks, cards for expansions, etc. It is intuitive to have the best people for the job doing it. We are fortunate to have them because the result will be better. c. What void will this fill? Mathematically groups 5/6 are not complete, therefore there are many vampires that haven't been used. Filling that gab is good for the game. Hope some of your questions have been addressed. If not, keep'em coming. Tiago

> Brum wrote: > a. New expansions are specially good to keep the interest of current player bases. Those who like the game allot enjoy new toys to play and keep interest. Multiple CCG's in our situation have this experience. If you are not aware of this, please take into account that many people here who are experienced, know what they are doing and love the game too. > I find this a bit insulting. Maybe you are saying that me or my playgroup dosent like the game. Thats why we are travelling to the EC and NAC to mention the biggest tournements. But, as far as I can call it, no one of us are happy about this new set, and these new toys. Im 50/50 pro and con, and as I can seem to call more are con the pro this set. We will ofcouse accept it and proberly use it, but actully I find it a bit of a stretch that this game needed new toys, and that we (myself playing since 1994) needed this to keep us intersted. Its fine that you have it that way, but please, dont state it like its a universal truth, and that if we dont agree on it, we dont like the game. /Jesper

> Izaak wrote: > Yes, PDF is more convenient but in this era of digital intellectual properties, I seriously doubt you're breaking more copyrights by actually printing the shit and shipping printed cards (at zero profit) than you do by putting PDFs online for everyone to download. > You have errors in your thinking here: - even if you do things "at cost" there is money involved. If money is involved it is not immediately clear if there is a profit. If there is a free download it is. This will potentially get people interested into looking at the thing and asking questions and eventually pursuing legal actions. - operating a physical distribution of VTES cards in a large scale is A LOT of work. I have done it for 7 years and I am sure I know more about it than anyone else here. Nobody is putting up with that kind of work without any compensation. That will require a profit and we are back to square one. - physical distribution requires handling of money, dealing with shipping costs etc.. That requires a legal entity. We do not have such a thing and there is no intention to create one. In short we think that the PDFs are just the maximum of possible IP infringement we can do before someone will notice and show interest and possible objection. Why is the new set a good thing: - it will keep the interest of the open minded players high. Without new cards the tournament scene is going to be static. That will eventually let that tournament scene fade out. I would be OK to lose 20% of the players now and keep 80% for 3 years longer. - the set will be offered as free to any company who picks the game up. That will make it more interesting for a company to do that because they will save a lot of money on the first release. Of course when that happens the print out cards will be banned. There will be much more details on the new set released soon by the design team. The set is not to be released for at least 6 months I think and it will be heavily previewed. I am sure we can please the majority of the sceptics and for the remaining handful who will still hate it, too bad it happens. People quit the game because of Imbued or Gehenna , which were done by the absolutely legitimate LSJ.

> Jesper wrote: > > > Brum wrote: > > a. New expansions are specially good to keep the interest of current player bases. Those who like the game allot enjoy new toys to play and keep interest. Multiple CCG's in our situation have this experience. If you are not aware of this, please take into account that many people here who are experienced, know what they are doing and love the game too. > > > I find this a bit insulting. Maybe you are saying that me or my playgroup dosent like the game. Thats why we are travelling to the EC and NAC to mention the biggest tournements. But, as far as I can call it, no one of us are happy about this new set, and these new toys. Im 50/50 pro and con, and as I can seem to call more are con the pro this set. We will ofcouse accept it and proberly use it, but actully I find it a bit of a stretch that this game needed new toys, and that we (myself playing since 1994) needed this to keep us intersted. > > Its fine that you have it that way, but please, dont state it like its a universal truth, and that if we dont agree on it, we dont like the game. > > /Jesper > I agree the game doesn't need new toys right now. But it needs them eventually. The set is going to come mid 2012 if not later (you know quality assurance and all) and present just a small number of new toys with a conservative power level. I think that is not hurrying things along. Also the new set can be quickly undone if it proves to be a bad idea. We remove the download and change the tournament rules back and allowing them only for limited events. Nobody bought anything except a few pennies for printing them so it won't be a problem. I don't think we need to exercise this safety option ever, but I think it should be reassurance to the sceptics that it is there. During the initial talks about a new set done this way the vast majority of the about 100 people I talked to about it were happy. In fact there was not one who couldnt be convinced. At the EC I was approached by NOBODY telling me this is a bad idea, some sceptics sure, but no outright rejection like I see it here (by a few people who might or might not be representative). I will try to think of a Way to Take the temperature on this from the majority of players out there. An online poll will be difficult and misleading, so we might run this through the princes. I'll check options.

Brum: 1) You're confusing "insulting" with criticizing". 2) Don't try to sound clever when you don't have any facts backing it up. You try and dismiss my opinion and anecdotal evidence from my own play environment with "facts" that have zero basis. 3) The VEKN IC is not some sort of holy circle of perfect people. They make mistakes too. Their two biggest ones being complete lack of communication and appointing invisible "old-school fans" as movers and shakers. If I woulnd't be here crusading and directly criticizing VEKN, but instead just nodding "yes" and "cool" like yourself, Johannes wouldn't have been posting updates and informing the people that post here of what's going on the past 2 days. That finally happening is GOOD and if it actually keeps going I might be able to convince my local players that VEKN is actually good instead of just a bunch of fans trying to be important, as they are looked at right now. What I need is some ammunition to throw at my players to convince them VEKN is good. Smoke and mirror statements is not going to do it. What you -and VEKN apparently as well- failed to realize is that the VAST majority of active players DO NOT read this forum. They aren't even registered here. They are pointed to VEKN.net (by me for example), see an annoying to read website in work unfriendly colors, with news updated 6 months ago (until yesterday). They will simply close their browser and think "whatever." This too has been pointed out SEVERAL times in the forums in the very first week of the website launching.

> Jesper wrote: > > I find this a bit insulting. Maybe you are saying that me or my playgroup dosent like the game. Thats why we are travelling to the EC and NAC to mention the biggest tournements. But, as far as I can call it, no one of us are happy about this new set, and these new toys. Im 50/50 pro and con, and as I can seem to call more are con the pro this set. We will ofcouse accept it and proberly use it, but actully I find it a bit of a stretch that this game needed new toys, and that we (myself playing since 1994) needed this to keep us intersted. > > Its fine that you have it that way, but please, dont state it like its a universal truth, and that if we dont agree on it, we dont like the game. > > /Jesper > I didn't mean that if don't want new material you like the game less. I prefer Camarilla over Sabbat. That's my choice. I would prefer KoT over 3rd for N reasons but I understand that people can (and should) choose differently. Doesn't mean they like the game less than me. I was just saying that there are A LOT of people that like the game, want new cards and that the people that are doing and testing them clearly do it because they think it's the best for the game. Of course that the lack of new material will not make the current player base run away. But eventually some people will like to have new cards. Many of them would like it already. You playgroup isn't happy about the new cards? Were they happy when they where released by CCP? If so, what's the difference? LSJ isn't here? Paper print VS real cards from real boosters? (To me that discussion has nothing to do with VtES, as I explained). The fact that now there's no possibility of collecting or trading the new material? This is a mute point, because there's nothing to do about that. I regret it also. Is it a problem to you guys that now the player's ideas will be taken into account? I fail to see this as bad. Besides the delivery system, LSJ leaving and the fact that players have a more direct impact in what comes out, there's no real difference from CCP times. Maybe people didn't know how things were done before and are just now discovering issues with the whole process. Ok - that is also a healthy discussion, but if they didn't leave the game before, there's no reason to leave now. Except, of course, the collecting issue and crafts / handy work being more important than VtES.

> Izaak wrote: > 3) The VEKN IC is not some sort of holy circle of perfect people. They make mistakes too. Their two biggest ones being complete lack of communication and appointing invisible "old-school fans" as movers and shakers. > This is absolutely true. And for me I appreciate criticism. Maybe it is a language issue but your posts often sound disrespectful. You give me the impression the dutch VtES-players give a s*** for those people who try to let the game live gaining nothing in return beside -respect-. It is just not adequate to assume they just do it to look important, will do mistakes anyway and will damage the game for sure. I'm glad to know there are guys who work on make VtES live longer. I know they have the experiences to do it well. Although you are right pointing out that they probably make mistakes they deserve a bit of trust for their first project. I'm sure the ICs (if you want to call them like that) tried all possible solutions regarding the printing of cards. It is easy just to say "no they didn't" if nobody has a valid idea how that task could be done. One other poster above mentioned the strain new expansions evoke in players. It's true, you hope there aren't too good cards, to bad new mechanisams and other things. I'm sure though that the upcoming set is the one that will be the most tested and discussed just because nobody wants to make a mistake. Why not just give it a try? Baron of Frankfurt

> Maybe it is a language issue but your posts often sound disrespectful. > In this country we call it just being direct. Straight to the point without any pink ribbons wrapped around it. Anyone that knows me (and there should be quite a few all over europe by now) knows that I'm not really that much of an ass but I do hate talking around the issue for hours because it simply gets you nowhere. Also, people don't like their shortcomings and mistakes being pointed out. I come from a culture where telling people, right in their face, they did a piss poor job (in those words) is commonplace and socially accepted. If people find this "disrespectful" then that's unfortunate.

> Izaak wrote: > 1) You're confusing "insulting" with criticizing". > I will have to agree. I found Izaak´s comments nothing but respectful and even though it is on the harsh side most of his criticism has merits. Maybe his perception of the numbers in the pro/con towards the new set is wrong, maybe mine is. Time will prove. > Izaak wrote: > 3) The VEKN IC is not some sort of holy circle of perfect people. They make mistakes too. Their two biggest ones being complete lack of communication and appointing invisible "old-school fans" as movers and shakers. > Fun fact: except for some members of the design team nobody was appointed additionally to the ones already active. Basically most NCs got some extra burden. Let me explain here what will be done in much more detail in the "State of the V:EKN" letter due on 01/01/2012: A lot of the things me and others of the Inner Circle had been doing was about trying to keep the game in print and when that ship sailed trying to at least keep the cards that are the from being trashed. Many of the things I worked on I couldn´t and still can´t talk about. If you do that a lot you get lost in it and fail to notice that there are a lot of things you can and *should* talk about. A lot of people within the V:EKN relied (there are notable exceptions) on my initiative and go-ahead to do things. That is wrong since it creates an unnecessary bottleneck and I never asked for it, but it just happend. I will see to the issue that the communicative positions in the V:EKN become much more proactive. > Izaak wrote: > If I woulnd't be here crusading and directly criticizing VEKN, but instead just nodding "yes" and "cool" like yourself, Johannes wouldn't have been posting updates and informing the people that post here of what's going on the past 2 days. > Yes and I have been trying to react to anything that sounded like constructive criticism with actions. There has been a lack of informations, I see that now and I am working on it. The same issue has come up in the NC forums and I reacted there a couple of weeks ago. I would love if you would go back and read my comment #17861 and respond to the points where I directly disagree with you.

> Yes and I have been trying to react to anything that sounded like constructive criticism with actions. There has been a lack of informations, I see that now and I am working on it. The same issue has come up in the NC forums and I reacted there a couple of weeks ago. > Yes I know this. I also know you want the best for the game and I appreciate that. I also want to take this opportunity to thank you for trying to improve the communication to the players that are neither Prince or NC (like me), but actually do "maintain" a group of players and care as much, or maybe more, about VTES as anyone else.

> Izaak wrote: > Brum: > > 1) You're confusing "insulting" with criticizing". > > 2) Don't try to sound clever when you don't have any facts backing it up. You try and dismiss my opinion and anecdotal evidence from my own play environment with "facts" that have zero basis. > > 3) The VEKN IC is not some sort of holy circle of perfect people. They make mistakes too. Their two biggest ones being complete lack of communication and appointing invisible "old-school fans" as movers and shakers. > > If I woulnd't be here crusading and directly criticizing VEKN, but instead just nodding "yes" and "cool" like yourself, Johannes wouldn't have been posting updates and informing the people that post here of what's going on the past 2 days. > > That finally happening is GOOD and if it actually keeps going I might be able to convince my local players that VEKN is actually good instead of just a bunch of fans trying to be important, as they are looked at right now. What I need is some ammunition to throw at my players to convince them VEKN is good. Smoke and mirror statements is not going to do it. > > What you -and VEKN apparently as well- failed to realize is that the VAST majority of active players DO NOT read this forum. They aren't even registered here. They are pointed to VEKN.net (by me for example), see an annoying to read website in work unfriendly colors, with news updated 6 months ago (until yesterday). They will simply close their browser and think "whatever." This too has been pointed out SEVERAL times in the forums in the very first week of the website launching. > Point 1 is subjective. Points 2 and 3 are not true. I will not go into "I made this and this happen". That is seeking the spotlight you accuse others of seeking. I really don't care about the image you have of me. But to try to discredit my opinions by writing things that are not true kinda sucks. I've been one of the most active voices in favor of proxies, for instance. That goes way against the status quo in VEKN. I could give you other examples, but that's rather beyond the point of this thread. Yes, there are facts and study cases in the "fan-based" releases of cards for CCG's and how they impact the perpectualization of the game. You said you were in Paris in the NC meeting. Did you hear David Tatu talk about the Star Trek CCG community, their organization, how they dealt with the IP and Oscar's points of how VEKN could wrap up legal issues with CCP? All these are important facts. Yes, I believe (as I stated in that same meeting), that the best people possible are working here, for what I know, apart from other two guys (Extrala and theLasombra) who are also doing nice work for the community, both here and in their respective projects. To say that the VEKN "appoints invisible "old-school fans" as movers and shakers." is so... out of touch with reality that I'm having difficulty writing about it. They are the same people as ever (apart from Scott). So, once again, IF people don't like it, why did they like it before? Now you CAN challenge these people. You can know what they do and why. Before you couldn't, or it was allot harder. I tried to investigate what was going on other CCG's. Magic, Game of Thrones (now a LCG), Start Trek, both Star Wars, etc. I think that VEKN is doing a good job under it's conditions and is thinking long term to keep us here and playing. Sue me. BTW, I think the lack of communication point you made was a good one, although probably not in the best terms. That lack of info release could be mitigated with the participation of the NCs and Princes (like they should). This whole discussion is giving me the idea some NCs are clueless to how things work, some Princes don't care and many players don't contact their Princes or don't come here. And since this page is MUCH better that the old WW one (if you wish I can put Scientific reasons for this statement in the right thread), maybe they didn't go there either. I'm very thankful to you if you endeavor to bring your fellow players to this forum. The more people here, the better. And maybe they can see (and interact) with VEKN officials and see what schemes they are up to. And help too.

> Izaak wrote: > > > Maybe it is a language issue but your posts often sound disrespectful. > > > In this country we call it just being direct. Straight to the point without any pink ribbons wrapped around it. Anyone that knows me (and there should be quite a few all over europe by now) knows that I'm not really that much of an ass but I do hate talking around the issue for hours because it simply gets you nowhere. > > Also, people don't like their shortcomings and mistakes being pointed out. I come from a culture where telling people, right in their face, they did a piss poor job (in those words) is commonplace and socially accepted. > > If people find this "disrespectful" then that's unfortunate. > This is an international forum. Not everybody shares your social norms. Nobody's expecting you to act politely but the least you can do is not be impolite. If everybody just blurted out the first thing they thought I think you'd find the escalating flame wars more obstructive to discussion than the few seconds it takes to express yourself in a civil manner. Don't think of this as a restriction or a rule but more as a way to make people want to listen to you and seriously and unbiasedly consider what you have to say.

> Izaak wrote: > Brum: > 3) The VEKN IC is not some sort of holy circle of perfect people. They make mistakes too. Their two biggest ones being complete lack of communication and appointing invisible "old-school fans" as movers and shakers. > I see the VEKN a group of people making an effort and I commend them for that. Our local play group plays using VEKN rules as they're the standard for tournament play — if you want to play at a tournament level you need to work with these rules. As the VEKN sets the tournament rules, the new set will of course be tournament legal — this alone makes it a step above a random fan-set and I'm supportive of it. Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook

> Izaak wrote: > Seriously Kevin, what are you trying to accomplish with these pedantic one-liners? I'm probably wasting my time even trying to discuss things with you,... > What a rotten attitude. I'm asking you questions and I'm attempting to have a conversation with you, and you're acting like a jerk. If the nature of a forum is such that you don't like what you're seeing people ask of you in response to what you're posting, maybe you should reexamine what you're posting, why it would generate the responses that you're getting, and why your attitude is so venomous. > Izaak wrote: > You should be well aware of an alternative, as I offered you -personally- right after the NC meeting at the EC 2010 in Paris to: > > a) Take a very good look at the Archon and make better tableseatings for the obvious problematic tournament sizes (them being anything smaller than 15, 21 and 29-37 from top of my head) > b) Help out in designing a new -and better- ranking system. Making a ranking system that's working is hard. Programming it in php with an upload script is trivial. > > You told me my help was not needed at that point in time and you'd get in touch if it was. You never did, which is fine, but ya know, we're 13 months into the future and nothing happened. > I'm sorry that you misunderstood. I didn't say "Your help is not needed" since I don't dismiss people like that and I don't talk like that. (Perhaps you didn't mean this literally?) What I said to you about the Archon was that David Tatu and I had already made better 2R+F tables for all the small tournament sizes, and that my understanding was that the math is such that making new 3R+F tables for the really small tournaments wasn't possible, so there was no reason to do it. What I said to you about the rating system is that since I had been told that someone was working on it, I didn't think that you needed to work on something that was already being worked on. I'm sorry that you took those comments personally and I'm sorry that I didn't direct you to Oscar or a better person with whom to speak. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> Cyrus wrote: > Allowing fan-made cards from some people but not others is hardly intuitive to new players or those out of the loop. It's far easier to just play with real cards released by WOTC/WW. I believe the burden is on the VEKN to prove 1) How releasing the new set is going to end up with a net gain of (active) players and 2) What sort of void the new set is going to fill. > Here, I'll give you some answers: Nothing is likely going to end up with a 'net gain of active players', short of a company selling the game once more. Lacking that, the player base is almost certainly going to decline. However, releasing a new set is likely to slow that decline down. Why? Because players are going to fall into one of three categories: 1) Players that are willing to keep playing the game with the cards currently in existence; 2) Players that are willing to keep playing the game only if new cards continue to be available 3) Players that are unwilling to keep playing the game whether or not new cards come out. Group 3) is irrelevant; they're gone. Group 1 is going to keep playing the game whether or not new cards come out, because nothing VEKN is doing is taking cards out of their hands, or making it illegal for them to play, or anything along those lines. Admittedly, it is going to change what cards can be played in 'official' tournaments - but very few players are going to stop playing the game entirely -just- because some of the organized tournaments (i.e. the vekn-run ones) use cards they dislike. Nothing stops those players from playing at home, or running their own 'WotC/WW cards only' events, or any other form of play. Group 2, on the other hand, is going to stick around and keep playing because of what VEKN is doing. And they won't stick around if that doesn't happen. Honestly, the block to 'grow the player base' will have almost nothing to do with whether these cards are designed and distributed or not; whether or not new players enter the game is going to largely depend on the job volunteers do in keeping the game active and visible and viable. Y'know, volunteers like the people that make up VEKN... -John Flournoy Prince of Chicago, IL.

> Izaak wrote: > The way I look at it is this: change nothing, the game continues and slowly dies out eventually. Release fan sets and you split the playerbase into two not neccesarily equally sized groups and the game dies out a little bit faster. > Release nothing and it withers away nevertheless. I think that with VEKN sanctioned new sets we'll have a better chance than not doing anything. > Izaak wrote: > I don't think we'll be here organizing ECs and NACs 5 years from now so why would you want to lose players just so all the stayers can play with 25 new crypt cards. > Certainly not with a negative attitude. Then again, I've also been actively involved with the naysayers/pessimists (a pessimist is a realistic optimist...) > Izaak wrote: > This whole legality issue has been blown way out of proportion. I'm perfectly allowed YADDAYADDAYADDA > Just cutting it short, no offence meant. Would YOU like to test that against CCP/WW/WotC lawyers? Would YOU like to be a person in responsability in our free, voluntary oraganization in a situation like that? > Izaak wrote: > The VEKN IC is not some sort of holy circle of perfect people. They make mistakes too. Their two biggest ones being complete lack of communication and appointing invisible "old-school fans" as movers and shakers. > The IC consists of people who have during the years devoted gargantuan amount of free time to this game without any compensation and keep on doing it. Insiniuating that they are in their current positions without any proper merits for their positions is quite insulting. Just out of curiosity, do you have better choices for ICs in hand? Or do you just want to fight The Man? Izaak, I don't know you but to me it seems that you're quite anactive person who wants to be involved. Do you think you could put that energy into benefitting VEKN in some way? The organization needs energetic and active people! I've said it previously, but will repeat myself again. I have noting more than utter and total respect for people like Jussi, Gines, Emiliano, Johannes, Pascal, the ICs etc who devote countles hours to run VEKN adn this site behind the scenes! You guys are the greatest! > Izaak wrote: > What you -and VEKN apparently as well- failed to realize is that the VAST majority of active players DO NOT read this forum. They aren't even registered here. They are pointed to VEKN.net (by me for example), see an annoying to read website in work unfriendly colors, with news updated 6 months ago (until yesterday). > I find that rather unlikely that with 1000 members on board we wouldn't have the vast majority of active players with us already. If the forum/site is good the colours don't matter. YMMV. Why update news for just the sake of it? I've been known to be blunt and direct but I've noticed that in the internet you have to be a little less direct since the personal contact of a regular or even phone conversation is not there. Like Suoli just said, people from all over the world attend this forum and it would be nice to take their customs into account as to avoid unnecessary conflicts or misunderstandings. Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > > > Izaak wrote: > > What you -and VEKN apparently as well- failed to realize is that the VAST majority of active players DO NOT read this forum. They aren't even registered here. They are pointed to VEKN.net (by me for example), see an annoying to read website in work unfriendly colors, with news updated 6 months ago (until yesterday). > > > I find that rather unlikely that with 1000 members on board we wouldn't have the vast majority of active players with us already. > > If the forum/site is good the colours don't matter. YMMV. > Why update news for just the sake of it? > Isaak's points are valid. There are lot of players that used to post semi-regularly to the newsgroup whom I have never seen post here, unless they are using unrecognizable new pseudonyms. That doesn't mean they are not reading, but I don't know if they are. This forum is less user-friendly than the newsgroup. A lighter color scheme, like then one used on the VEKN in France forum, would be more visually pleasing. I'm not saying it's bad here, but I certainly preferred the newsgroup, which was finally killed a few months ago by inexplicable spambots.

The following is my interpretation of my play groups mood, since you asked for it; > Brum wrote: > You playgroup isn't happy about the new cards? Were they happy when they where released by CCP? > Actully I do belive no, that there came to new expansions out to often. I know all the good reasons for this, but that dosent mean that we need to like it. > Brum wrote: > If so, what's the difference? LSJ isn't here? > As said, its not so. But yes there is a big differenc(to come); > Brum wrote: > Paper print VS real cards from real boosters? (To me that discussion has nothing to do with VtES, as I explained). > But it dose have something to do with v:tes for alot of others. v:tes is/was a CCG/TCG some of us like that in a game. Some dosent, I fully respect that people dosent like that aspect, as long as they can respect that some of use like that aspect of a card game. > Brum wrote: > > The fact that now there's no possibility of collecting or trading the new material? This is a mute point, because there's nothing to do about that. I regret it also. > Agreed on this one. And thats also why you dont see me stading around yelling not knowing what im talking about. I _know_ the options, but that dosent mean I need to like them. We will with 99,5% accept the set and using it, since we like the tournements, like the players and love the game, but we will not be seeing it as optimal, or as something we would see the need for. For me there are still a million decks in the all ready cards needed to be discovered and tried, before new toys was needed. > Brum wrote: > Is it a problem to you guys that now the player's ideas will be taken into account? I fail to see this as bad. > It is a problem that there is no company behind yes. I fail to see that players ideas wasent taken into account earliere. But yes, ultimatly Im sceptic about that, I really, really liked the fact that Scott wasent a tournement player, since he was in a position to observe and design/rule not based on bad personal tournement experience. One of the things Im a bit sceptic about with Floppy, I know Floppy and he is a great guy, who would do a great job, but I just liked the fact of a rules guy who understood the game but could view it in a broarder perspetive. > > Brum wrote: > > Besides the delivery system, LSJ leaving and the fact that players have a more direct impact in what comes out, there's no real difference from CCP times. > Are you serious ?!? If you look at v:tes now and v:tes 3 years ago, would you dismiss the difference as minor? > Brum wrote: > Maybe people didn't know how things were done before and are just now discovering issues with the whole process. > Ok - that is also a healthy discussion, but if they didn't leave the game before, there's no reason to leave now. > Still, and here comes the big difference from now and then imho. There was a company involved, there was money involved, and that made it all more legimit. Trust me, if v:tes had never gone to the printers but only realeased ans a print'n'play game it peroberly wouldent exist to day. There is just a hell of a big difference. Its clearly here, lets say that Walch & Nusser (or some others) have gotten the rights for the game, _no one_ would have questioned the design process, even if it was the same as today. You might say that this is stupid, or it dosent make any sense, but thats the way it is. /Jesper > Brum wrote: > > Except, of course, the collecting issue and crafts / handy work being more important than VtES. >

> Aaron wrote: > > > Lönkka wrote: > > > > > Izaak wrote: > > > What you -and VEKN apparently as well- failed to realize is that the VAST majority of active players DO NOT read this forum. They aren't even registered here. They are pointed to VEKN.net (by me for example), see an annoying to read website in work unfriendly colors, with news updated 6 months ago (until yesterday). > > > > > I find that rather unlikely that with 1000 members on board we wouldn't have the vast majority of active players with us already. > > > > If the forum/site is good the colours don't matter. YMMV. > > Why update news for just the sake of it? > > > Isaak's points are valid. > > There are lot of players that used to post semi-regularly to the newsgroup whom I have never seen post here, unless they are using unrecognizable new pseudonyms. That doesn't mean they are not reading, but I don't know if they are. > > This forum is less user-friendly than the newsgroup. A lighter color scheme, like then one used on the VEKN in France forum, would be more visually pleasing. I'm not saying it's bad here, but I certainly preferred the newsgroup, which was finally killed a few months ago by inexplicable spambots. > I like the colors of the site. Many players don't post here. For example, in Polish League of V:tES (in just 2011) there were 112 unique players. Out of those i've seen posts of 4 players. In my playgroup there are 11 player (only 2 played in league), and just me who post here. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

I didn't say I don't like the colors. I said they are office-unfriendly. If you are browsing VEKN.net at work, anyone even glancing your screen knows you are doing something obscure. This in contrast with browsing the old usenet or most local VTES forums. > Izaak, I don't know you but to me it seems that you're quite anactive person who wants to be involved. Do you think you could put that energy into benefitting VEKN in some way? The organization needs energetic and active people! > I offered help, multiple times, to multiple people with very specific purposes and was turned down multiple times. It infuriates me that exactly the things I offered to do are STILL not done 13 months down the line. > The IC consists of people who have during the years devoted gargantuan amount of free time to this game without any compensation and keep on doing it. Insiniuating that they are in their current positions without any proper merits for their positions is quite insulting. > That is exactly why I'm saying this. The currect IC members are the same people who have "devoted gargantuan amount of free time to this game without any compensation". Yes, that's very nice of them and all, but the thing is -here it comes-, I don't see them doing it RIGHT NOW. And NOW is what matters. I could go on here and put very specific examples, but that will just be seen as insults again so I'll leave that as an excersise to the reader.

> Izaak wrote: > > > Yes and I have been trying to react to anything that sounded like constructive criticism with actions. There has been a lack of informations, I see that now and I am working on it. The same issue has come up in the NC forums and I reacted there a couple of weeks ago. > > > Yes I know this. I also know you want the best for the game and I appreciate that. > > I also want to take this opportunity to thank you for trying to improve the communication to the players that are neither Prince or NC (like me), but actually do "maintain" a group of players and care as much, or maybe more, about VTES as anyone else. > I talked to some guys yesterday and I think this is the most important point indeed: communication. As Izaak already mentioned there are really many players who participate in the national forums (at least now and then) but don't in the international. So we should make certain, that those players in that national forums also get the important informations. Not through word of mouth but from an official VEKN-rep. If for ex. the dutch players read about the reasons for the PDF-version, get assured that it will thouroughly designed and playtested, know of the possibilities of participation in the process, get the offer of playtesting in their playgroup and to discuss the cards, then they will alter their point of view for sure at least a bit pro PDF and wouldn't threat to leave the game because they think there are just some crazy fans doing it. So yes, Izaak, comms are the key. Baron of Frankfurt

I'm all for communications. I've been bitching about the lack of it for quite a while. I found the newsgroup horridly difficult to follow so much prefer this forum to it. I see little point of trying to get people to burn out doing voluntary work for VEKN because it needs to be done now or NOW. Real Life TM wins over VEKN. And you won't run out of the things that need to be done. Ever. But if you've been postponing the need-to-do things for quite some time AND have a guy who is willing and able to lend a hand and turn him down. Well, that is just plain bad and sad... If lack of ratings is a problem I'm not really concerned. PErsonnally they never interested me one bit. I do understand why some people are interested in them though. Hmmm, I noticed that we've kinda strayed off from the topic (New set in 2012). Perhaps a moderator should move the non-topic mails to another, more apropraite, discussion or open a new one? Finnish Politics!

> Izaak wrote: > > > The IC consists of people who have during the years devoted gargantuan amount of free time to this game without any compensation and keep on doing it. Insiniuating that they are in their current positions without any proper merits for their positions is quite insulting. > > > That is exactly why I'm saying this. The currect IC members are the same people who have "devoted gargantuan amount of free time to this game without any compensation". Yes, that's very nice of them and all, but the thing is -here it comes-, I don't see them doing it RIGHT NOW. And NOW is what matters. > NOW is just a very thin cross-section of time. I agree that people shouldn't be appointed solely based on past contributions, especially if they aren't going to be able to contribute much in the future. But past contributions can be a useful metric and track record to indicate the likelihood, intention, and potential of future contributions. The IC position (and any other VEKN position including NC's and Princes) are purely volunteer positions. And most people have lives outside of VTES (work, family, other hobbies). For any given VEKN volunteer, you're going to have periods of massive activity, and periods of relative inactivity (when other obligations get in the way). Choosing an arbitrary NOW timeframe to measure performance isn't particularly useful. In addition, don't forget that there are always going to be transition costs whenever you replace people. So if someone is busy NOW, and you replace that person with someone new, for all you know that new person could end up busy in a few months or a year, and then you'll need to find another replacement then. Continuity and consistency are what is important - especially since a lot of work is behind-the-scenes work or ongoing long-term projects. If an official volunteer does need to take an extended absence and/or feels like he/she cannot fulfill his/her duties in the near future, then yes, they should definitely step down or find a temporary replacement. But I don't think a revolving door scenario where you're constantly replacing people the moment they're temporarily inactive, is useful for VEKN or most organizations. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

Just like Izaak I am from the netherlands. This direct to-the-point comunication done by Izaak is not done by others, but done by some, a few, maybe many. I dont have the numbers on that. I think it is irralivant to go into dept about how izaak should behave on the forum. Izaak has a diffrent playgroup then us. And therefore the opinion of his playgroup is diffrent. Our plagroup is quite positive about the addition of new cards. There are some questions afcource about what and how, but I expect them to accept the non-white-wolf cards as legal for play whitout a big fuzz. About the forum activity. It is true that a lot more players from the netherlands were viewing the google forum. Vekn is being viewed less. A reason might be very simple. Nothing new has been released, so it is not that important to keep up with the rules and errata´s anymore. There are a few more reasons, but they are already explained. Also I already like to thank all the volunteers for investing their time in keeping vekn up and running and for the intention of releasing a set of cards. I have faith in the skill of the current design group especially since Ben Peal is in it. Keep it up! Oortje Have a cold long night, Jeroen van Oort Dutch National Coördinator

And so another dutch guy can't help but reacting. Because the dutch identity is being challenged/defined? I don't know. Normally I don't really care about these things. Maybe it's because my ancestors came from very different places. Also, when I say stuff I tend to be very vague and circumspect. Because I try very hard to please everyone. This can be hard at times. I can only speak for myself, and maybe some people of my playgroup: This is the first message I post at this forum, I do more at the dutch forum. I have been lurking here for same time, but this being international, big and with many new people (for me), I hesitate to post. I would like for vtes to continue forever, for eternity. I would love for that to be with 'real' cards. However, if enthousiastic people do their best to create some solution that hopefully won't be the end of vtes, I can only applaud that. Having said that, I think that the point about communication is a valid one. So I'm excited to see the "State of the VEKN" letter, and maybe a sneak-peak at the new set? Maybe I am by then drawn in to the discussion on this forum, and getting 'in the middle of things right here', or maybe I will run back to the dutch forum, and my wonderful NC (he truly is ) will post the big news there. Keep up the good work, everyone! Even if it means shouting emotional stuff at each other over the internets..

> Brum wrote: > The game will not be deluded by the new set. It will generate interest and the cards will be free and open to all. > It is necessary to be in .pdf / html format. > Besides the physical format, everything is like before for you guys, > The game will be diluted, because it wont be a ccg anymore, nor will it be in any recognizable format. Any interest will be limited to those that know about it *and* want fanbased, unliscenced pdf cards. It will not generally be 'open to all' because visibility is limited to the vekn site. Most importantly it will split the playerbase into those that will use them and those that will not (either due to not recognizing the validity of fanbased cards or the vekn, or not wanting to be forced to use cardsleeves, or both). And thus my fear is that this could very well be how the game dies utterly.

> talonz wrote: > And thus my fear is that this could very well be how the game dies utterly. > But not doing anything will kill the game utterly. So, I think the risk should be taken.

> talonz wrote: > The game will be diluted, because it wont be a ccg anymore, nor will it be in any recognizable format. Any interest will be limited to those that know about it *and* want fanbased, unliscenced pdf cards. It will not generally be 'open to all' because visibility is limited to the vekn site. > I completely sympathize with these points. I do, however, also know that other CCGs (ST:TNG, Rage, Buffy?) followed the same path after they were killed off. And may or may not have survived the efforts. Anyone know what happened with these games doing the same kinda thing?

> bakija wrote: > I completely sympathize with these points. I do, however, also know that other CCGs (ST:TNG, Rage, Buffy?) followed the same path after they were killed off. And may or may not have survived the efforts. Anyone know what happened with these games doing the same kinda thing? > Pretty sure Rage is still going. If it's not now, it was certainly still going for quite a long time after it ceased official production. Isn't Shadowfist another "officially dead, still being produced on the sly" CCG that's still active?

> talonz wrote: > What else would you call it? VEKN is quite explicity the player based organization. What are vtes players if not fans of the game? If that organization of fans is going to make their own card expansion now..... And dont kid yourself thinking I will be the only one to make this connection, thats the whole point....this expansion will be seen by the average player as just that, a fan based expansion, along with the stigma that comes with it. > I'm trying to see this from your point of view here, and having a tough time. To that end, what do you imagine that the process of creating a new set was, back when WW was doing it?

> talonz wrote: > Most importantly it will split the playerbase into those that will use them and those that will not (either due to not recognizing the validity of fanbased cards or the vekn, or not wanting to be forced to use cardsleeves, or both). > Those players who will not recognize the PDF set as valid will not be able to act as tournament organizers or judges in any offical VTES tournament going forward. If those players still refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of the PDF set, they won't be able to play in any official VTES tournaments, either. If those players choose to segregate themselves due to their beliefs, they themselves will be responsible for the "split", and while the community will (possibly) mourn their loss, the community is not responsible for the refusal of some of its members to accept that the only constant is change. > talonz wrote: > And thus my fear is that this could very well be how the game dies utterly. > I think that it is important to state that for those who choose self-segregation because their preferences, having been debated in an open community format, were not accepted, they will have killed the game for themselves only. The rest of us will continue, and we will welcome such players back with open arms if such players choose to return. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> KevinM wrote: > Those players who will not recognize the PDF set as valid will not be able to act as tournament organizers or judges in any offical VTES tournament going forward. If those players still refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of the PDF set, they won't be able to play in any official VTES tournaments, either. > Just a nitpick. Players and organizers who "refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of the PDF set" can still organize and play in VEKN sanctioned tournaments. It's just that those tournaments will not count for ranking, nor will any of them provide invitations to national or continental events. I agree with everything else. Well said. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Kushiel wrote: > Isn't Shadowfist another "officially dead, still being produced on the sly" CCG that's still active? > It was still being published as an actual CCG through last year. We were working on a new set (i.e. playtesting and planning for) that was going to be printed like normal until very recently, and now the PTB decided that they will invent a new distribution plan, and now they are kind of in limbo.

> johannes wrote: > > > talonz wrote: > > > > > johannes wrote: > > > That is what the V:EKN does, actually. Every NC should repost what he deems important from here to his local forum. Every prince should be here and keep track and report back to his local playerbase. Not all of them do, but most. I have always assumed that this is a good enough way to distribute information to as many players as possible. > > > > > > > > Again, you are in denial. I dont know who our NC is. The national forum I knew of was always dead when I was a prince. There are no active princes in bc right now. VEKN has 0 visibility whatsoever from what I can see, but for the 1 player besides myself that alerted me to this 'new set'. > > > Let me put it this way: I know it works for the most countries that have a significant number of active V:TES players. It is sad to hear that it doesn't work for Canada (if I figured correctly your nation). But that is certainly not the fault of the VEKN but of the Canadian players. Go ahead gather your princes and agree on a NC. He can try to organize a national forum and make the right moves to keep people interested into VTES in Canada. If I check the player registry which has quite old data from the glorious days of white wolf I see 5 people with ANY rating at all. That means Canada has been giving a shit about VEKN sanctioned tournaments for years. So why do you go nuts about new cards that only affect VEKN sanctioned tournaments when you apparently are not interested in them at all? > I find it interesting talonz how you are still posting here but did not reply at all to this post I made where I adressed you directly. Maybe you overlooked it so I am pointing it out to you again. Why are the Canadians who failed to make an impact on the V:EKN at all during recent years suddenly so concerned about the V:EKN?

> Kushiel wrote: > I'm trying to see this from your point of view here, and having a tough time. To that end, what do you imagine that the process of creating a new set was, back when WW was doing it? > Its kind of pointless for me to speculate, so lets get to the point. You are implying that the process largely hasnt changed? To alay my fears (in part) I would rather know; -who the design team is (why is this kept secret anyways??) -what their qualifications and experience is (its very common for designers to introduce themselves, explain their experience and view on the game and what they bring to the table, etc. why not do that here?) -what the current design process is and how that differs if at all from the process under WW.

> KevinM wrote: > > > talonz wrote: > > Most importantly it will split the playerbase... > > > Those players who will not recognize the PDF set as valid will not be able to act as tournament organizers or judges (and) won't be able to play in any official VTES tournaments, either. > As pointed out, this isn't entirely true. > If those players choose to segregate themselves due to their beliefs, they themselves will be responsible for the "split", > Of course, yet the catalyst is still the pdf set. > and while the community will (possibly) mourn their loss, the community is not responsible > We should mourn every loss! Everything we can do to maintain player interest and participation should always be our first concern! Without that, we have no community kevin. Maybe your playing community can survive the loss of half (perhaps more, perhaps less) of its players, but mine cannot. And if the community initiated this via implementing the catalyst above *and* allowing/forcing noncards into tournament play, it *is* responsible.

Johannes, ill pm you on the cdn question if you like, but that is veering offtopic. I am desperately considering how to find a solution to my issues with this set myself, as no one seems to be both understanding and interested in actual solutions to the problems I have presented so far. Assuming the design team info is forthcoming and the cards are balanced, and the vekn does not change its decision to distribute and legalize for tourney play these cards, the only solution for me I can think while avoiding cardsleeves (because I think those are abominations personally) is; Allow players to create their own proxies of the pdf cards. This I think is the only way this would work for me and anyone else that feels the same way. I used to make proxies of giants blood/mylan with old jyahd cards or other wallpaper cards, with a good old fashioned ball point pen. Then I instead started making lists of what each deck needed for play out of my precious 'good pile' and inserted those before play instead. Now I think this is the only solution remaining to me. Would the vekn support this solution?

> talonz wrote: > > > Kushiel wrote: > > I'm trying to see this from your point of view here, and having a tough time. To that end, what do you imagine that the process of creating a new set was, back when WW was doing it? > > > Its kind of pointless for me to speculate, so lets get to the point. You are implying that the process largely hasnt changed? > The process is largely the same as it was when WW produced the sets. > talonz wrote: > To alay my fears (in part) I would rather know; > > -who the design team is (why is this kept secret anyways??) > -what their qualifications and experience is (its very common for designers to introduce themselves, explain their experience and view on the game and what they bring to the table, etc. why not do that here?) > -what the current design process is and how that differs if at all from the process under WW. > Did you read this: Designers' Diary ? Some of your fears might be addressed there. In the past, nobody know who the members of the design team were, except that LSJ was part of it (headed it). As far as I can tell, the current design process is the same as in the past. Do you know how the design process and playtest process were for the WW-produced sets? Why do you care now? The VEKN has been heavily involved with VTES and WW from the get go. It was the the VEKN who persuaded Steve Wieck to pick up VTES and produce sets. It was the VEKN that started the continentals. LSJ was always a part of the VEKN Inner Circle and acted also as rules-representatve for WW. Members of the VEKN created the WW Strategy Guide. Members of the VEKN have always been involved with creating cards for sets and playtestgin. Nothing has changed. What has changed is that LSJ stepped down and Pascal took his job. He is a more than worthy successor. LSJ is no longer designing the sets. Other people previously heavily involved with WW and the VEKN are doing that now. They may or may not disclose themselves to the public. LSJ has never disclosed the members of the Rules Team or the Design Team. Yet you seem to be satisfied with the way the things were in the past. You didn't answer Johannes, our VEKN chairman, who was politely aksing you direct questions. Are you sidestepping too direct questzions? As others have pointed out, you seem to be involved with VTES in your country, why not become NC and try to make things better from the inside? pckvtes.wordpress.com

> talonz wrote: > Johannes, ill pm you on the cdn question if you like, but that is veering offtopic. > > I am desperately considering how to find a solution to my issues with this set myself, as no one seems to be both understanding and interested in actual solutions to the problems I have presented so far. > > Assuming the design team info is forthcoming and the cards are balanced, and the vekn does not change its decision to distribute and legalize for tourney play these cards, the only solution for me I can think while avoiding cardsleeves (because I think those are abominations personally) is; > > Allow players to create their own proxies of the pdf cards. > > This I think is the only way this would work for me and anyone else that feels the same way. I used to make proxies of giants blood/mylan with old jyahd cards or other wallpaper cards, with a good old fashioned ball point pen. Then I instead started making lists of what each deck needed for play out of my precious 'good pile' and inserted those before play instead. > > Now I think this is the only solution remaining to me. Would the vekn support this solution? > For the sake of the lazy guys, please be so kind and restate in a short summary what your problems are. pckvtes.wordpress.com

> talonz wrote: > -who the design team is (why is this kept secret anyways??) > Yes, I also want to know this. Please reveal! "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> talonz wrote: > Assuming the design team info is forthcoming and the cards are balanced, and the vekn does not change its decision to distribute and legalize for tourney play these cards, the only solution for me I can think while avoiding cardsleeves (because I think those are abominations personally) is; > > Allow players to create their own proxies of the pdf cards. > I'm still puzzled what the big issue is. In casual play (and I would guess that most VTES play is casual play), you can use proxies (heck, I'd encourage people to use proxies). Use Esteems for Enkil Cog or Eyes of the Dead for Eyes of Argus. Use Ascendence, Smudge, and Conquest of Humanity for whatever new cards there might be. But maybe a couple of times a year, if you attend a VEKN tournament, you might need to make some minor adjustments. Either, A.) use sleeves with a color printout, or B.) play a deck without the new cards (people still occasionally bring all Jyhad '94 decks to tournaments). People keep complaining about sleeves, but there are a lot of small adjustments players often have to make for formal tournaments: - Some tournaments require deck lists. Some players hate deck lists, but if they want to attend that particular tourney, they either have to create and submit a deck list, choose a deck they're okay with submitting, or just not participate. - Tournaments don't allow proxies (there are differing opinions on whether a color printout of the new cards, done in the officially suggested way, is truly a "proxy"). So borrow the cards you need from your friends. Or swap them out from your other decks (some players have the cards, but they are in a different deck, so they proxy them instead of swapping cards between decks every game). * Some CCG's may require deck sleeves in their tournaments. Others take it a step further and prohibit some deck sleeves (mainly those with patterns and graphics, allowing only plain deck sleeves). Unless you're attending a significant number of VEKN tournaments (and I think most playgroups aren't running that many all the time), it just seems like an occasional nuisance rather than a cataclysmic catastrophe. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Ashur wrote: > > > talonz wrote: > > -who the design team is (why is this kept secret anyways??) > > > Yes, I also want to know this. Please reveal! > And I want to know who killed John F. Kennedy B) It is kept "secret" to give the people some breathing room. With them being new and all we wanted to protect them from too much good-willed suggestions for a while ("Hey Mr. DJ please play this song"). Some are already pretty evident on the forums, but over the next couple of weeks I am sure you will know.

> talonz wrote: > Its kind of pointless for me to speculate, so lets get to the point. You are implying that the process largely hasnt changed? > I'm not trying to imply anything. I'm trying to figure out why you're freaked out about the contents of the new set, and the only way to know that is to know what the baseline is for you w/r/t the old sets. I am getting a vibe that maybe you (and the other players freaked out by the new set, I guess?) have this weird idea about the legitimacy of the game being compromised due to it lacking corporate governorship. I'm pretty sure that a) WW didn't have any magic card fairies producing stuff that us mere mortals could never come up with and b) WW had less of a hand at the tiller than I'm guessing you think they had. But without knowing what you think the process was back when WW was printing the game, it's impossible to know if my suspicion is just evidence that my vibe-o-meter is miscalibrated. Go ahead and speculate. It's free.

> Amenophobis wrote: > > > talonz wrote: > > > > > Kushiel wrote: > > > I'm trying to see this from your point of view here, and having a tough time. To that end, what do you imagine that the process of creating a new set was, back when WW was doing it? > > > > > > > > Its kind of pointless for me to speculate, so lets get to the point. You are implying that the process largely hasnt changed? > > > The process is largely the same as it was when WW produced the sets. > > > talonz wrote: > > To alay my fears (in part) I would rather know; > > > > -who the design team is (why is this kept secret anyways??) > > -what their qualifications and experience is (its very common for designers to introduce themselves, explain their experience and view on the game and what they bring to the table, etc. why not do that here?) > > -what the current design process is and how that differs if at all from the process under WW. > > > Did you read this: Designers' Diary ? > > Some of your fears might be addressed there. > > In the past, nobody know who the members of the design team were, except that LSJ was part of it (headed it). > As far as I can tell, the current design process is the same as in the past. Do you know how the design process and playtest process were for the WW-produced sets? Why do you care now? > > The VEKN has been heavily involved with VTES and WW from the get go. It was the the VEKN who persuaded Steve Wieck to pick up VTES and produce sets. > It was the VEKN that started the continentals. LSJ was always a part of the VEKN Inner Circle and acted also as rules-representatve for WW. > Members of the VEKN created the WW Strategy Guide. > Members of the VEKN have always been involved with creating cards for sets and playtestgin. Nothing has changed. > > What has changed is that LSJ stepped down and Pascal took his job. He is a more than worthy successor. > LSJ is no longer designing the sets. Other people previously heavily involved with WW and the VEKN are doing that now. They may or may not disclose themselves to the public. > > LSJ has never disclosed the members of the Rules Team or the Design Team. Yet you seem to be satisfied with the way the things were in the past. > > You didn't answer Johannes, our VEKN chairman, who was politely aksing you direct questions. Are you sidestepping too direct questzions? > > As others have pointed out, you seem to be involved with VTES in your country, why not become NC and try to make things better from the inside? > So, talonz, your lack of response to the above post suggests that you are trolling. You got nice and in-depth responses from various people. You chose not to answer direct questions by the VEKN chairman and others regarding your involvement with VTES and possible VEKN, and addressing your fears. What more is there to say? I thought so. pckvtes.wordpress.com

Nope, just burnt out from long days at work and the christmas rush. I have read your replies and found portions of them informative, thanks. Keep in mind I did pm johannes with answers to some of his questions (not related to the set itself). For the record, I was never trolling, and no one answered my question on whether homemade proxies without sleeves would be acceptable. But either way I dont think this conversation has any further steam to it. I am resigned to the fact that the pdf set will happen and the abhorent sleeves requirement along with it. I hate it, but there it is.

Please, for Christmas, give us one SPOILER!!!

> talonz wrote: > For the record, I was never trolling, and no one answered my question on whether homemade proxies without sleeves would be acceptable. > Johannes did, here: www.vekn.net/index.php/forum/10-news-and-announcements/14161-new-set-in-2012?limit=10&start=70#16155 This was before you began posting in this thread, so perhaps you missed it. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

That seems to answer someones posted link on printing our own cards. What I am referring to are actual proxies, ie: writing on wallpaper cards the title and icon of some other card (in this case a pdf card), and having the pdf card printed seperately for reference/replacement of proxy once the proxy is put into play. Thus allowing for a non sleeved deck. But yeah id like to see a spoiler as well.

That sounds like a reasonable compromise. One could argue that it is confusing to your opponents since they do not have the right visual information on the card, but I don't think it is so inconvenient: we already play with token Disarm or Powerbase: Montreal all the time when the owner is ousted and wants to pack his cards.

Well its a simple thing to slap the pdf print version over the proxy once its in play, if it is a stay in play kind of card. Or flip up the pdf version beside your library for reference once the proxy is played. The proxy is therefore just a placeholder within the deck, to allow for an all vtes backed card deck w/o sleeves.

This sounds like a reasonable avenue to explore as a compromise. You'd want to have some restrictions/ requirements attached like making sure the PDF is available for any player to refer to, making sure there was no way to pretend the proxy was never a proxy at all and was in fact its actual face card, etc, but it seems to not be too much additional burden for the rule book or player wanting to use the new card. -- salem

> talonz wrote: > Nope, just burnt out from long days at work and the christmas rush. I have read your replies and found portions of them informative, thanks. Keep in mind I did pm johannes with answers to some of his questions (not related to the set itself). > > For the record, I was never trolling, and no one answered my question on whether homemade proxies without sleeves would be acceptable. But either way I dont think this conversation has any further steam to it. I am resigned to the fact that the pdf set will happen and the abhorent sleeves requirement along with it. > > I hate it, but there it is. > I'm sorry if I sounded overly harsh. I apologize for calling you a troll, which seemingly is not so. As far as I can see, homemade proxied in casual games would be fine. It's the tournaments where you will be required to use sleeves. What you do in friendly games is entirely up to you and your players. No argument here. Keep on playing VTES! B) pckvtes.wordpress.com

My question is "If these printed proxies for the new set are legal are printed proxies from older sets tournament legal as well?"

> XZealot wrote: > My question is "If these printed proxies for the new set are legal are printed proxies from older sets tournament legal as well?" > No. Printed VEKN cards will be the only legal home-printed cards.

> XZealot wrote: > My question is "If these printed proxies for the new set are legal are printed proxies from older sets tournament legal as well?" > In one word: "No". Thr tounement rules will be/are (havent checked) to include this new PDF set in its current form (printed on normal paper, putted in sleeves with another card). But no other sets would be legal this way, by the current rules (which I personally are quite happy about) /J

No. This is covered in the 2012 rulings. > Cards allowed All cards in a player's deck must be genuine Vampire: The Eternal Struggle or Jyhad cards or official V:EKN issued cards from the only authoritative source www.vekn.net. When using V:EKN issued cards they must be color printed on standard paper and inserted into opaque sleeves before another Vampire: The Eternal Struggle or Jyhad card, this requires opaque sleeves for the whole crypt and/or library. > In other words, only cards in their "original release form" are allowed.

> XZealot wrote: > My question is "If these printed proxies for the new set are legal are printed proxies from older sets tournament legal as well?" > Cards released in PDF format are not proxies as the PDF card isn't a proxy of an already existing card. So let's not call them proxies as not to confuse people. Finnish Politics!

Of course they are proxies - paper printouts that represent particular cards. And the only reason to differentiate them from proxies from older sets is some fantasy about the game being published again.

> Dorrinal wrote: > Of course they are proxies - paper printouts that represent particular cards. And the only reason to differentiate them from proxies from older sets is some fantasy about the game being published again. > Of course they are not proxies, since as you say they don't represent any existing card. It's word twisting in order to pass particular idea. They are not the same as regular proxies.

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > Dorrinal wrote: > > Of course they are proxies - paper printouts that represent particular cards. And the only reason to differentiate them from proxies from older sets is some fantasy about the game being published again. > > > Of course they are not proxies, since as you say they don't represent any existing card. > > It's word twisting in order to pass particular idea. They are not the same as regular proxies. > Interesting use of the qualifier - "regular proxies." You can't deny the nature of these PDF-based cards. What else do you call a slip of paper with card text, put in sleeve in front of another V:TES card? That's right, it's a proxy, even if it is a proxy for a card that doesn't exist. Now let's say that by some miracle of doublethink, that you are right. It has no bearing on XZealot's question, because one can create proxies for previous sets by the same method. Therefore the proxy/not-proxy distinction is completely immaterial.

> Dorrinal wrote: > Now let's say that by some miracle of doublethink, that you are right. It has no bearing on XZealot's question, because one can create proxies for previous sets by the same method. Therefore the proxy/not-proxy distinction is completely immaterial. > You're the one engaging in some serious doublethink and, worse yet, syntactical minutiae wrangling. A proxy is a SUBSTITUTE for the REAL THING. Cards that were published in physical format by WotC/WW/CCP are the REAL THING. Cards that will be published by the VEKN in electronic format and subsequently printed out by players are the REAL THING. PROXIES, that is, cards which are not either of the above REAL THINGS, are illegal. Sure, it is true that by the definition of the latter, which is very clear from all of the things Johannes and Pascal have said up until this point, means that most everything that qualifies as a REAL THING VEKN CARD might take on a similar physical appearance to a PROXY of a REAL THING WOTC/WW/CCP CARD, but there is a difference between the two. Common sense is a wonderful thing sometimes. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Jeff wrote: > > > Dorrinal wrote: > > Now let's say that by some miracle of doublethink, that you are right. It has no bearing on XZealot's question, because one can create proxies for previous sets by the same method. Therefore the proxy/not-proxy distinction is completely immaterial. > > > You're the one engaging in some serious doublethink and, worse yet, syntactical minutiae wrangling. > > A proxy is a SUBSTITUTE for the REAL THING. > Cards that were published in physical format by WotC/WW/CCP are the REAL THING. > Cards that will be published by the VEKN in electronic format and subsequently printed out by players are the REAL THING. > > PROXIES, that is, cards which are not either of the above REAL THINGS, are illegal. > > Sure, it is true that by the definition of the latter, which is very clear from all of the things Johannes and Pascal have said up until this point, means that most everything that qualifies as a REAL THING VEKN CARD might take on a similar physical appearance to a PROXY of a REAL THING WOTC/WW/CCP CARD, but there is a difference between the two. > > Common sense is a wonderful thing sometimes. > One card is used to represent another card with the help of a slip of paper - in other words, a proxy. You can't change the definition of the word, but you can get hung up on the fact that the original card hasn't been printed. Aside: Clearly this isn't an issue that is easily resolved by application of common sense. So kindly shove the smart ass comment - I won't stand for it.

> You can't change the definition of the word > Indeed you cannot, so stop doing it.

Let's say you wanted to proxy a card like Villein. You just print out the card text, and slide it in sleeves in front of some random cards. Do you need to own a copy of Villein for each proxy? Of course not. You could proxy an entire deck this way without owning any of the actual cards. The cards in your deck, with the printouts, represent the idea of Villein -- not physical copies of Villein, because you don't need to own physical copies to make proxies. Now this hypothetical PDF set is released by VEKN and you want to put one of the new cards in your deck. You print out the card text, slide it in the sleeves in front of some random cards, and add them to your deck. These cards represent the idea of the new card, just like the cards in the Villein example. Summary: A proxy is a card that represents another card. One does not need to own any copies of a card to create a proxy for it, therefore A proxy is a card that represents the idea of a card, not a physical card, therefore It doesn't matter if there are no physical copies of a card.

> Dorrinal wrote: > Let's say you wanted to proxy a card like Villein. You just print out the card text, and slide it in sleeves in front of some random cards. Do you need to own a copy of Villein for each proxy? Of course not. You could proxy an entire deck this way without owning any of the actual cards. The cards in your deck, with the printouts, represent the idea of Villein -- not physical copies of Villein, because you don't need to own physical copies to make proxies. > > Now this hypothetical PDF set is released by VEKN and you want to put one of the new cards in your deck. You print out the card text, slide it in the sleeves in front of some random cards, and add them to your deck. These cards represent the idea of the new card, just like the cards in the Villein example. > > Summary: A proxy is a card that represents another card. One does not need to own any copies of a card to create a proxy for it, therefore A proxy is a card that represents the idea of a card, not a physical card, therefore It doesn't matter if there are no physical copies of a card. > That is wrong. A proxy, in (trading) card games, is a representaion of a physical, existing card. Btw, what is your problem with the "not so hypothetical" VEKN set? pckvtes.wordpress.com

Well looking the word up in Oxford dictionary noun (plural proxies) 1 [mass noun] the authority to represent someone else, especially in voting: Britons overseas may register to vote by proxy [ count noun] a person authorized to act on behalf of another. [count noun] a document authorizing a person to vote on another’s behalf. From this I would say that a Proxy in a TCG could be a document authorized to act on behalf of another document. This would mean that there would need to be another document(card) to act on the behalf of. With this new set there isent such a card, it dosent exsist. Therefor the printed card produced wouldent be a proxy, it would be the actual card, just represented in another form that most other cards would.

I don't see why "proxies" were involved in this discussion. The only allowed cards are the genuine WotC/WW/CCP cards, and printed versions of the VEKN cards. There's no need to discuss what a "proxy" is. > Tournament wrote: > All cards in a player's deck must be genuine Vampire: The Eternal Struggle or Jyhad cards or official V:EKN issued cards from the only authoritative source www.vekn.net. >

> Pascal wrote: > I don't see why "proxies" were involved in this discussion. > The only allowed cards are the genuine WotC/WW/CCP cards, and printed versions of the VEKN cards. There's no need to discuss what a "proxy" is. > > > Tournament wrote: > > All cards in a player's deck must be genuine Vampire: The Eternal Struggle or Jyhad cards or official V:EKN issued cards from the only authoritative source www.vekn.net. > > Since when have "need" driven the discussions here ;o)

Oh, well, sure. "Proxy" isn't a word used in the rules, so you can argue on it being a copy of a physically existing card, an existing card itself (as the material representation of cardtext), a printed version of an immaterial card, or even the picture of a grandma riding a horse to the top of the Eiffel tower. As long as the object is in one of the allowed categories, it is legal for tournament play. Otherwise, it isn't.

> Amenophobis wrote: > > > Dorrinal wrote: > > Let's say you wanted to proxy a card like Villein. You just print out the card text, and slide it in sleeves in front of some random cards. Do you need to own a copy of Villein for each proxy? Of course not. You could proxy an entire deck this way without owning any of the actual cards. The cards in your deck, with the printouts, represent the idea of Villein -- not physical copies of Villein, because you don't need to own physical copies to make proxies. > > > > Now this hypothetical PDF set is released by VEKN and you want to put one of the new cards in your deck. You print out the card text, slide it in the sleeves in front of some random cards, and add them to your deck. These cards represent the idea of the new card, just like the cards in the Villein example. > > > > Summary: A proxy is a card that represents another card. One does not need to own any copies of a card to create a proxy for it, therefore A proxy is a card that represents the idea of a card, not a physical card, therefore It doesn't matter if there are no physical copies of a card. > > > That is wrong. A proxy, in (trading) card games, is a representaion of a physical, existing card. > > Jesper wrote: > This would mean that there would need to be another document(card) to act on the behalf of. With this new set there isent such a card, it dosent exsist. Therefor the printed card produced wouldent be a proxy, it would be the actual card, just represented in another form that most other cards would. > My example directly contradicts your assertion that there must be a physical card. That was the whole purpose of my post. Both these responses are the equivalent of shouting "NUH UH!" at my argument. Pascal: thanks for the reality check, but at this point we have devolved into arguing semantics.

> Pascal wrote: > I don't see why "proxies" were involved in this discussion. > Which was my point when I posted my message #19810 on the previous page. Using the word proxy in conjunction with the upcoming PDF cards leads into confusion and mixups. And as we just witnessed, sematics Finnish Politics!

I feel the urge to respond in this thread, since I have been mentioned multiple times (being one of the lurking Dutch players of the V:tES community - I've been playing the game since Jyhad and have always been checking out the newsgroup and WW fora before; been a member here for 12+ months). A few things I'd like to get out of the way before I make my contribution to this thread. First being this: Izaak is NOT representing the Dutch V:tES community. Being one of the more 'vocal' members obviously, and one that has a very impressive grasp on the rules and concept of the game we all like to play, not to mention his knowledge of the card-pool of V:tES and even the various errata on those very cards (for which I respect him very much), I wish to distance myself from statements that appear to be the general opinion of the Dutch V:tES community. And another issue: although the Dutch are indeed well-known for their direct approach and even bluntness, compared to just about everyone else in the world, some of us have taken this 'bluntness' to a whole new level, which is NOT the way everyone else in the Netherlands (I prefer to use this name over 'Holland') behaves or acts. To assume this is the case (or to state that this IS the case) is insulting to the Dutch in general. I have been asking around about the fact that so few Dutch players contribute on this forum within my own playgroup (and asked a few people outside that group as well) to get an idea why participation in the 'community' might seem low. The general answer I get to this is that folks like me DO check the (former) newsgroup, WW forum and now the V:EKN forum, but dislike being part of seemingly endless discussions that often turn into arguments or even insults. Ofcourse it's good to discuss things, and many great posts can be found carrying very constructive information on many different subjects, but the general feeling folks over here have (mind you - I speak for myself and part of my playgroup, who I discussed with about this yesterday) is that many guys in here think they're more important than others, and are destined to convince others of their own opinion, leaving little to no room for debate. Arguments and even insults reïnforce this feeling. To many players, V:tES is a very enjoyable, original, out-of-the-box and inspiring game, with countless possibilities for being original and trying out new concepts and decks and all. But the emphasis lies on the word 'game'. Not everyone likes to get drawn into discussions about something that's supposed to be entertaining, but which sometimes turns into overly serious discussions, arguments and insults. So yes, many of us are here, lurking the forum, reading about many things but not interfering with too many discussions. Which gets me back to the topic of this thread (sorry for diverting). To me, this new set has to prove itself before I can and will vent my opinion on it. I trust the people involved in creating it, and am very curious about what we might see when it gets done. There's no doubt in my mind it won't be any good - only the creators of the new 'cards' can spoil that for me by releasing game-breaking library cards or crappy new minions. I can share my thoughts on the new set with you once I've seen it. I DO have some questions about the legality of the new 'fan-made PDF set' and on how to handle the product once it's out. As I understand, I am to print out the PDF cards on a regular sheet of paper (any specifics for the paper are lost to me), then cut them out properly, and then shove them in a sleeve, along with a regular V:tES card, for it to be tournament-legal, correct? Who's going to decide the quality of the print is sufficient enough? If, for example, our NC decides it's good enough, is there a way for me to be sure that judges and/or organizers for the EC agree on that deciscion? In other words; do you have specific guidelines to what is 'good quality' or will it be arbitrary to the occasion? I read that it will be illegal (for tournament play) if I decide to have a professional printing company print the new set on a decent sheet of cardboard, including the correct card backs printed double-sided and have them cut-out like 'the real deal'. This mostly because of copyright and other rules and laws about the cards. How is it different if I go to a copyshop to have them print my PDF on a sheet of paper (not all of us have decent color-printers at home, you know)? I will still be paying a third party for the print, in which case that party will make some profit out of the PDF cards, which will make it just as illegal as when I go for the 'double-sided cardboard version' of the new set, right? I would really like to know this, since the most humiliating thing I could imagine is me being disqualified and sent home (I know, that won't happen, but hypothetically so...) from any kind of official event I wish to participate in. Just some thoughts... I would like to add that I do appreciate the energy many of you still put into keeping V:tES alive, and hope for youi all to keep up the good work. But please keep in mind that, although not everyone is just as vocal as som other folks in here, there are still a lot of us supporting you and trusting you in what you do. I just realize this is only my second post on this forum (the Dutch V:tES forum still is used very actively by lots of us Dutch players, if you wish to know), and that this got to be a VERY long reply - my other one is more in a style that fits me; a very short answer to a very clear question, leaving little or no room for debate leading to arguments leading to insults But I still hope this does not make me less a member of the V:tES community than would I have been more vocal. I'm still here, and I will contribute in my own way. Do not give up on me (and us, for that matter). "They had forgotten the first lesson, that we are to be powerful, beautiful, and without regret." ~ Armand.

wow, when i think about it there can be some incredibly heated debates on these forums..... i believe the reason for the rule on printed cards is there would potentially be legal risks with encouraging players to have essentially counterfeit cards made (even though they wouldn't be copies of owned cards, they would still posses intellectual properties owned by WW, CCP, and Hasbro). the vekn being a non profit organization isn't financially stacked to handle any of that sort of thing. although i agree printed cards of the new set would be awesome.......

> Angel74 wrote: > As I understand, I am to print out the PDF cards on a regular sheet of paper (any specifics for the paper are lost to me), then cut them out properly, and then shove them in a sleeve, along with a regular V:tES card, for it to be tournament-legal, correct? > You got it right. Only one detail missing though: the print needs to be a colour print. I don't recall any other specifis being gives, but Iäd assume a reasonable resolution would be nice. Then again, I'm sure that if you use the forthcoming official files to do colour prints there'll be no problems. Finnish Politics!

Your local printing/office supply store probably has the option for you to print at 300dpi on 80gsm paper (standard photocopy style paper). Officeworks, Kinkos, etc all do this sort of thing. I wouldn't have too many problems with a Greyscale printing of the cards, but if there was an official statement of "Your must print it in Colour" then I'd be happy to agree to that. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

Colour prints on regular 80gpsm paper are fine. We'd like to discourage cardboard prints, as it may result in eBay sales ("I sell real quality cards"), which we don't want.

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > I wouldn't have too many problems with a Greyscale printing of the cards, but if there was an official statement of "Your must print it in Colour" then I'd be happy to agree to that. > I think it´s necessary if you are to be able to recognize the card lying crosstable. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Pascal wrote: > Colour prints on regular 80gpsm paper are fine. > We'd like to discourage cardboard prints, as it may result in eBay sales ("I sell real quality cards"), which we don't want. > I intend to print any new cards on card stock. Ideally even with printed card backs (although I will still use sleeves). I don't intend to sell them on eBay, they are for my own use. Would cards that I print in this way cause me to be disqualified from a tournament? VtES store : www.prunesquallor.net Card supplies & games : stores.ebay.com/Prunesquallors-Secret-Cache

Since the current instructions are: - Print it out at kinkos/home on paper - Slide paper into sleeve with a previously commercially printed VTES card Then as a Judge, I'd have to say "Yes, you are disqualified". Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Would cards that I print in this way cause me to be disqualified from a tournament? > Not on mine. > Then as a Judge, I'd have to say "Yes, you are disqualified". > That is, frankly, retarded.

> Izaak wrote: > > > Then as a Judge, I'd have to say "Yes, you are disqualified". > > > That is, frankly, retarded. > Aye. I wouldn't make this more complicated than it is. And frankly it's not really that complicated. As long as it's well printed and you can't tell the card through a sleeve I'm going to let it through in my tournaments. Trying to gain pool from an edge in your master phase is another thing - this one's something that's supposed to keep people playing, not scare them away with super strict rulings. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

With opaque sleeves you can see those that hold 2 cards inside and those that don't. If you print your cards with the same thickness as a normal card and, by the rules, you also put a regular VtES card inside the sleeve, then yes - it might be considered marked cards. Why complicate things? Print in a paper sheet and enjoy the game. Cheers, Tiago

Who's complicating things? I get the new cards on decent card stock, comparable to at least some VtES cards (there is a fair bit of variability in the card stock quality from VtES cards over the years). I store them with the rest of my collection like normal cards, and put them into sleeves like normal cards. Sounds simpler to me. And that is what I will do for casual play at least. If the ruling will be that using anything but printed paper inside a sleeve with a real card will result in a DQ, I agree with those who have said that it's stupid. In that case, for a tournament, I will need to replace my printed card with the "standard" way of paper in a sleeve with a card. I will point out that (inside a sleeve) my printed cards would be harder to distinguish from a real card, than the "standard" way. And that would be the really stupid part about this potentially leading to a DQ. VtES store : www.prunesquallor.net Card supplies & games : stores.ebay.com/Prunesquallors-Secret-Cache

I don't know you, but you seem like a nice, friendly guy who's very cool for the Community as a whole. Not everybody is like that. I'm sure you can print cards that in thickness are very similar to regular ones. I'm not sure everyone else can. Where do we draw the line? No Judge can have a way to measure what is ok and what is not in thickness and in weight. I think the easiest route is for everybody to use normal sheets of paper and regular cards to back them. It is easiest for the Judges too.

prunesquallor: If your intent was to point out a flaw in the current tournament rules, you were successful. But if you're just asking, well, the rules are quite clear on what is an acceptable proxy. And it's not "stupid" to apply the rules as written - even though many judges would likely allow your prints.

All I'm trying to do is figure out is whether, for myself and anyone else out there who's going to take the time to print up decent quality cards from the new online release, we can actually use those cards in any official event. If we can't, then fine, I'll also print on paper and have those on hand for tournament use. It doesn't make sense to me, but if that's the rule I'll play along. That's why I'm raising the argument now. VtES store : www.prunesquallor.net Card supplies & games : stores.ebay.com/Prunesquallors-Secret-Cache

It has already been explained on another thread why cardstock prints for the cards won't be tournament leagal. IIRC, just VEKN making absolutely sure no one from the copyrightholders would start getting a wrong kind of message. A message where VEKN condones proper carsstock prints of VTES cards which might kinda be considered a breach of their copyright. Or something. Finnish Politics!

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Since the current instructions are: > > - Print it out at kinkos/home on paper > - Slide paper into sleeve with a previously commercially printed VTES card > > Then as a Judge, I'd have to say "Yes, you are disqualified". > What weight of paper is legal and what weight is illegal? Non-Camarilla

Standard (70-100g/sqm) is perfect. "real quality" cardboard would be around 400g/sqm, I suppose. Perhaps a bit more. And I'm not even sure. Most of the quality of the print doesn't come from the paper. It comes from the printer.

So basically what you're saying is that double-sided printing of new cards on quality paper will be illegal? And that a bunch of shitty paper printings that are easily distinguished even when sleeved in opaque sleeves are legal? LOL?

> Izaak wrote: > So basically what you're saying is that double-sided printing of new cards on quality paper will be illegal? > Just as illegal as double-sided homemade prints of non-VEKN cards.

Oh cool so if someone wants to make their "cards" somewhat looking like actual, ya know, cards they'll get disqualified. I don't know what to say, really. Just LOL I guess... > Just as illegal as double-sided homemade prints of non-VEKN cards. > Totally moot. I can with minimal effort create copies of VTES cards that are impossible to distinguish from actual cards. Especially when sleeved. Therefore this would actually be legal in the sense that you have no way to check. Also, since the VEKN issued cards already follow different lagality rules, there is not reason to follow the WW/CCP issued cards here.

@Izaak: Print it out on 'normal' paper in colour (try Kinko's or your local . Cut it out. Put it in front of a VTES card in a sleeve. If you can identify the self-printed cards from the WW-printed cards, then you need to redo your self-printed cards so they can't be distinguished in the sleeves in your library/crypt. Its as easy as: 1) Can you tell the cards apart? If yes, then they're not tournament legal. If no, then they're tournament legal. 2) Are these cards close to WW-printed cards? If yes, they may be considered as breach of copyright cards. If no, then don't worry about it. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> 1) Can you tell the cards apart? If yes, then they're not tournament legal. If no, then they're tournament legal. > A card with a paper in front of it will be thicker than one without. Always. Since a card is already pretty thin, printing on standard 80 gram paper WILL make the marked, even if you try really hard not to. I know because when CE was just released and there was very low supply of any cards at all our group used to play with exactly what the VEKN rules describe for the new cards: colored photocopies on 60 gram paper in front of a normal VTES card in a sleeve. I still have those proxies and they are significantly thicker than a normal card and easy to tell apart. > 2) Are these cards close to WW-printed cards? If yes, they may be considered as breach of copyright cards. If no, then don't worry about it. > Copyright issues don't exist when it's for personal use. Since all of those cards will be for my own use, I'm not breaching any copyrights. If I were to sell them on e-bay, sure, but I'm not doing that.

> Izaak wrote: > Copyright issues don't exist when it's for personal use. Since all of those cards will be for my own use, I'm not breaching any copyrights. If I were to sell them on e-bay, sure, but I'm not doing that. > I think the issue is more of "not scaring away businesses that would buy the right to VtES". VEKN don't want to autorize really good proxies ; it may be counter-productive and silly, but it's way easier to be silly than convincing businessman that the goal were really benign and not a threat to theirs products.

> VEKN don't want to autorize really good proxies > The new cards are -allegedly- not proxies. > it may be counter-productive and silly, but it's way easier to be silly than convincing businessman that the goal were really benign and not a threat to theirs products. > Yes, because - clearly - any hypthetical businesses would visit tournaments of at best 200 players people to check everyone's cards if they are really well-done fan-based cards or proxies and not pursue VTES because some people go out of their way to make their stuff look neat. This is a *completely* idiotic argument. A hypothetical new investor would see if and how much money he could make from producing and selling VTES cards with the given condition that the game has fan-created expansions. HOW these cards look on the table, someone running the company doesn't give shit about.

> Izaak wrote: > Yes, because - clearly - any hypthetical businesses would visit tournaments of at best 200 players people to check everyone's cards if they are really well-done fan-based cards or proxies and not pursue VTES because some people go out of their way to make their stuff look neat. > > This is a *completely* idiotic argument. > That's a really valid argument, because they *will* seek information, and are likely to found the usual practices, either from here, from big tournaments, or the internet at large. If everyone is authorized and encouraged to create card very similar to the real one, they won't try to understand why, they will just note that as an argument against. This is a public forums. If someone who actually want to do money from VtES appear, he is very likely to begin here. So, it's above everything else the place for promoting not doing thing that may hurt business.

Ye see that's just entirely your opinion which is also entirely flawed. The amount of money that can be made from producing VTES is going to be the same regardless of HOW we end up proxying the new cards. There are new cards, with quality art and original icons and stuff. I'll still print my cards on VTES-card like paper, round corners and all. They will be indistinguishable from a sleeved official VTES card. I'll hand them out as promo's for new people that come to my tournaments. If judges want to disqualify me for using "better" and less recognizanble proxies than someone else, then so be it. That just means you lost another competitive player (and I'll make a couple of thousand euro's on e-bay as a side-bonus).

Better quality prints would naturally be better.. there is no way to argue against that. Ideally we should have all cards reprinted with consistent quality, same backs and updated with errata, newer blood symbols etc. But as long as there is still a chance that some company will pick up the game and start official prints again I think it is the right decision to do everything we can to make that more likely to happen. And legal stuff, especially related to copyright does not always have to make logical sense... If the game truly "dies" the VEKN can always decide later to allow better quality prints, but if they think there is a good reason not to for now I'm prepared to trust them on that. It's after all a minor inconvenience for us as players against getting some new cards into the game.

Seems like for you it is "if I can't have my cake & eat it too it is screw you guys, I'm going home!". Shame really as losing such a quality player would certainly not benefit the game. Then again, getting the organization sued for copyright infringement or somesuch would be even more hurtful. The reasons for the PDF card printing restrictions have been given and I really don't think they'll be changed. No matter how much ruckus we make because of it. That is unless, CCP/WotC specifically give us express permission to have those around. Which I kinda think they won't. > Izaak wrote: > A card with a paper in front of it will be thicker than one without. Always. Since a card is already pretty thin, printing on standard 80 gram paper WILL make the marked, even if you try really hard not to. > Isn't this kinda moot though? The sleeved cards will be sitting on a deck and just by looking at the deck you can't see if the top card(s) have additional print included inside or not. Finnish Politics!

> Isn't this kinda moot though? > The sleeved cards will be sitting on a deck and just by looking at the deck you can't see if the top card(s) have additional print included inside or not. > You can, actually. But since you can also do that with Jyhad/Third and whatever non-sleeved cards this will all go under the common denominator of "people won't cheat". > The reasons for the PDF card printing restrictions have been given and I really don't think they'll be changed > Of course they won't. Which is idiotic. And reasons haven't actually been given. The only pseudo-official statement is that they VEKN wants to *discourage* the use of proper cards to prevent people selling them on e-bay as the real deal. Also, this has nothing *whatsoever* do with CCP/WW and copyrights and all that legality shizzles. CCP *cannot ever* sue me for making something that looks like their stuff FOR MY PERSONAL USE. Yes, they can (if they bother) sue me when I start selling it on e-bay. Which I will not. > "if I can't have my cake & eat it too it is screw you guys, I'm going home! > You can read it like that. I want a game with quality standards. I want a game with concise and sensible rules. I'm getting neither. Apparently everyone else is fine with a game that has shitty standards, is insanely easy to cheat in and has more counterintuitive rulings than any game ever made. That's all fine and dandy, but that just means that the game I loved has taken a direction I don't think it should be going. And since the VEKN is being pretty thick-headed about these things under the false assumption that this somehow matters for this fantasy future publisher the only other option is to, so to speak, go home. Which is, to be fair, becoming a more and more attractive option the more I read here.

> Izaak wrote: > Also, this has nothing *whatsoever* do with CCP/WW and copyrights and all that legality shizzles. CCP *cannot ever* sue me for making something that looks like their stuff FOR MY PERSONAL USE. Yes, they can (if they bother) sue me when I start selling it on e-bay. Which I will not. > The VEKN cannot rule ebay, it can only rule tournaments. Although technically the VEKN or the individual authors/artists would also have a copyright on the cards, I don't think any of them is willing to go into the hassle of enforcing it. > > Apparently everyone else is fine with a game that has shitty standards, is insanely easy to cheat in and has more counterintuitive rulings than any game ever made. > As you said, it is not worse than what we have had for 16 years since the Jyhad/Vampire backs. Why get pissed off now?

> it can only rule tournaments > Precisely. Therefore it makes ZERO sense to enforce a rule at a tournament that has ZERO effect on e-bay. > As you said, it is not worse than what we have had for 16 years since the Jyhad/Vampire backs. Why get pissed off now? > It pissed me off forever, but there was no reasoning with LSJ once he had his mind set on something. I had the vain hope a new rulemonger would mean a fresh wind of change, but it seems we just got a French incarnation of Scott.

For legal reasons, VEKN can't say "you can print false cards with superior quality". They must say "use genuine cards and put some paper on it". Now, everyone is clever enough to know what to do. And if you get caught, it will be your whole responsability. So stop blaming VEKN and start being smart. You don't need VEKN to endorse what you do. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Izaak wrote: > I can with minimal effort create copies of VTES cards that are impossible to distinguish from actual cards. Especially when sleeved. Therefore this would actually be legal in the sense that you have no way to check. > I understand your pov. Still it would be great not to make Pascal or VEKN responsible of the fact they can only allow paper-prints. It is them who get fined if some legal issues arise, not us. Baron of Frankfurt

I want to confirm what Izaak said about cards with a piece of paper put in the same sleeve being distinguishable. Indeed we tried, in the previous period when VtES was hard (or nearly impossible over here) to obtain, to use paper copies, exactly the way you want us to with the new set, to be able to test decent decks. Please, go and try - build a deck, put all your cards in sleeves, then add a paper card in some sleeves, together with the original (five or something). Then shuffle and stack the deck. You'll be able to tell which cards have an extra piece of paper in front of them. Ofcourse you will have to look close, and some of you will say that during heated tournament play, no-one will really bother, but that doesn't change the fact that you still can distinguish the cards. This, ofcourse, can also be because of the quality (thickness, sturdiness, flexibility) of the used sleeves, I know that. But will that mean there will be a ruling for those too? I see some good points in arguments from both 'sides', but this whole situation obviously has lots of flaws, not making the game more fun to play. To me, it even looks like this new set will split the community, since I saw more than one person state they would allow 'fancy-printed new set cards' on their tournaments anyway - will they all be excluded from the VEKN? All because a future company might pick up the game again and find out some of us have printed a fan-based set on card-stock (and if indeed they take some weird kind of offense on that...)? Ouch... then maybe I am not in favor of a new set at all anymore. "They had forgotten the first lesson, that we are to be powerful, beautiful, and without regret." ~ Armand.

You make it sound like it is easier to cheat with proxies. I don't think it is the case: it is already trivial to cheat with sleeved decks. Just pick 2 different brands of black sleeves or mix old and new sleeves of the same brand. > > Ofcourse you will have to look close > It is enough to make it much better than the Jyhad/Vampire backs that catch the eye without having to pay any special attention. That being said, I am still not convinced that people selling high quality print on ebay are a threat either. Since those cards will have no rarity, one cannot sell at more than paper price, even on ebay where people buy overpriced crap all the time. If you want to make money printing cards, don't print the pdf that everyone has access to, print Enkil Cog! It might be enough to release the pdf for non-commercial use only and wait to see if the sale of cards becomes a problem. The pdf sets should also have their own logo so they can easily be banned from tournaments (and hopefully replaced by official prints) if the game gets back in production.

> Non-existant user wrote: > You make it sound like it is easier to cheat with proxies. > Not my intention. And also, not the same situation. Ofcourse I can choose to cheat with sleeves like in the examples you give. The difference is that I would choose to, and with a piece of paper in front of a card I don't get a choice. It's just there, and someone can accuse me of cheating while I had no other choice than to play by tournament rules. As I understand, the whole cheating-thing is based on mutual trust. I also think that, in this community, folks generally can be trusted with this. I hope you all agree. But as such an important issue is based on trust alone, why not do the same with printing cards on decent card-stock? Just trust folks not to seel the stuff on eBay and you're completely fine. I also don't think that the people that keep the VEKN going can be sued if I decide to make my own cards, using the cardbacks and the logo's and all. There's no real connection between the VEKN, being an organization that runs tournaments and keeps track of a rating (?), and myself, being an individual, not directly linked in any way to the VEKN. I simply 'just' join their events, every once and while. And another thing: I have a few friends who work at professional printing companies, who told me it's not really easy to have cards be printed double-sided and then cut out on cardstock, and, for a commercial customer like myself, it will certainly not be very cheap (most companies are not set up for playing cards, like Carta Mundi for example, so special arrangements and equipment will have to be made and bought). So in order for me to make a profit on eBay, I will have to sell those cards at quite high prices. If folks have the choice to pay a rather high amount of money for my cards, or get the PDF for free and print the cards relatively cheap, I doubt the venture of selling them on eBay will be very succesful. The advice for printing cards like Enkil Cog and selling those will assure a much higher profit, if one wants to do harm... In the end, if it's affordable enough, I will still get my own copies of the new set on cardstock (and a lot of other Dutch players with me, I think) for personal use. If the only way to still be allowed on VEKN events will be the use of paper cards in front of real ones, then sure, I'll do that. Don't want to be DQ'd for something this silly after all. "They had forgotten the first lesson, that we are to be powerful, beautiful, and without regret." ~ Armand.

I'm curious by what reasoning people think that it's acceptable to defy the will of the people now running the game. As nothing was ever said (or done) for the 15+ years prior to now, I can only hypothesize that there is a lack of respect, if not outright disregard, for the people now running the game. Why is that, I wonder? Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> Angel74 wrote: > Not my intention. And also, not the same situation. Ofcourse I can choose to cheat with sleeves like in the examples you give. The difference is that I would choose to, and with a piece of paper in front of a card I don't get a choice. It's just there, and someone can accuse me of cheating while I had no other choice than to play by tournament rules. > It is much less "there" than a Jyhad card in a Vampire deck because you have to take an extra step to notice it. Following your line of thought, a judge should already be called to check the deck every time a Jyhad card pops up. How often have you seen or heard of it happening? As for me, never, and there is no reason for it to change.

> KevinM wrote: > As nothing was ever said (or done) for the 15+ years prior to now, I can only hypothesize that there is a lack of respect, if not outright disregard, for the people now running the game. > Remember kids, no-one ever played 4CL. No-one ever enforced the Golden Tenets or the Sensible Players Tournament Rules before they were ratified. No-one ever set up a regional (then national) Jyhad League. No-one has ever run a Continental Championship telling people that they openly disapprove of VP deals and that players need "powerful reasons" to make deals, rather than just following the rules (which demanded no such "powerful reasons"), because they disagreed with LSJ's rulings on the subject. If you remember any of these things happening, you are wrong - KevinM has rewritten reality.

There IS a lack of respect and outright disregard for the people now running the game. I think it comes out of ignorance. LSJ had few "because I say so" moments. If Pascal follows Scott's steps we are very, very lucky. I acknowledge he does some things even better, like answering questions with more words than "Correct" or "Cardtext". Personally I never had problems with my interactions with Scott, as I knew he had a life outside of VtES and answering like that was the only way for him to be quick (and he was almost always very quick) in answering. People disregard very easily that there might be good reasons for the way things are being implemented and I've seen lots of offensive things here. There are some users that seem to think that the VEKN officials build the worst and hardest policies possible because it somehow fancies them. They don't even give the benefit of the doubt. To me (not being Inner Circle and being little more than just a player), that is offensive.

EDIT: weird double post. Sorry guys.

> KevinM wrote: > I'm curious by what reasoning people think that it's acceptable to defy the will of the people now running the game. > > As nothing was ever said (or done) for the 15+ years prior to now, I can only hypothesize that there is a lack of respect, if not outright disregard, for the people now running the game. > > Why is that, I wonder? > I suppose you speak of the initiators of the VEKN. Let me ask you then: are they 'running' the game now? Or do they provide a way to have some standard in tournament play and (used to) keep track of the participants' standings compared to other players over the world? Because on that matter, they do a pretty okay job. I was not aware the VEKN owned all the rights to the game (necessary to be able to 'run' it, I think). We don't see many VEKN interference in our friday night games of V:tES, which occur far more often than the occasional VEKN event we join. So even though the VEKN might 'run' the game on their own events, me and my friends 'run' it just as well on our own playnights. I know you do not represent the VEKN in what you just posted, but please - read it back and smell the arrogance in what you stated there. It's posts like that one that keeps many players away from this forum. The VEKN is not the 'endboss' of al things V:tES. It's a player-run organization. And we're all players, equally interested in the game and its future. VEKN even asks for comments on their ideas on how to keep the game alive. Ofcourse they're going to get peoples' opinions on matters, and no, not everyone will agree on everything they propose. That's part of how it works, when a game gets carried by its community. So there's my reason for 'defying the will of the people now running the game'. I think it's completely acceptable, and it has nothing to do with disrespect or disregard for the VEKN. I'm just asking questions and try to get a clear picture of the future of the game I have been playing for so many years. "They had forgotten the first lesson, that we are to be powerful, beautiful, and without regret." ~ Armand.

> Angel74 wrote: > So even though the VEKN might 'run' the game on their own events, me and my friends 'run' it just as well on our own playnights. > I politely disagree with you this in one way: Do you take VEKN rulings into account when playing friendly games, like the errata on Villein? That was a clear example of a problem the Community as a whole asked for VEKN's attention and it was solved in a way many found elegant. My point is that VEKN's decisions take into account all aspects of the game and are to help all aspects of the game. Even friendly games.

> Brum wrote: > There IS a lack of respect and outright disregard for the people now running the game. > Since we're all 'running the game' now, that would mean we disrespect ourselves. i don't think that's the case. > I think it comes out of ignorance. > 'Ignorance', in this case, comes forth out of bad or incomplete information, or statements that leave a lot of room for interpretation. you might confuse it with 'curiosity'. > LSJ had few "because I say so" moments. If Pascal follows Scott's steps we are very, very lucky. > I acknowledge he does some things even better, like answering questions with more words than "Correct" or "Cardtext". > Personally I never had problems with my interactions with Scott, as I knew he had a life outside of VtES and answering like that was the only way for him to be quick (and he was almost always very quick) in answering. > I have had no problems with LSJ myself. I think Pascal is an excellent choice for being his replacement (as I would think of everyone else crazy enough to take the job). > People disregard very easily that there might be good reasons for the way things are being implemented... > I think little is disregarded - you will just have to ask yourself if 'good reasons' is what they gave us. Not on everything, as far as I'm concerned, but I have already asked my questions about those things. > ...and I've seen lots of offensive things here. > Agreed. Though very open to interpretation as well. Sometimes, you will have to try and read between the lines. > There are some users that seem to think that the VEKN officials build the worst and hardest policies possible because it somehow fancies them. > I'm not too sure about this. I don't think anyone in here thinks the VEKN tries to make the game unplayable. I just agree with some others who think it's silly, for example, to get DQ'd for all the wrong reasons. > They don't even give the benefit of the doubt. To me (not being Inner Circle and being little more than just a player), that is offensive. > Ofcourse they give the benefit of the doubt, but they also speak out their concerns and come with some valid ideas which might change some minds (no harm in trying that, it's what this forum is for, right?). People get frustrated if they get the idea their opinions don't matter at all (please note: not me, since I got most of my questions answered), and not everyone is good (or subtle) with words. An official "Look guys, you can scream whatever you want, we're not going to change anything in our plans" would put an end to this discussion and help a great deal for people to decide to stay with the VEKN or leave (I would, after such a statement). But I think such a statement won't come, hence the discussion will continue. This is what happens on a forum. After the PDF fan-made set somes out, and we get to see how it works out in tournament play (since in private play we can do whatever we please), things will cool down, or shatter the game. That's the way the cookie crumbles. "They had forgotten the first lesson, that we are to be powerful, beautiful, and without regret." ~ Armand.

> Brum wrote: > > > Angel74 wrote: > > So even though the VEKN might 'run' the game on their own events, me and my friends 'run' it just as well on our own playnights. > > > I politely disagree with you this in one way: > Do you take VEKN rulings into account when playing friendly games, like the errata on Villein? > > That was a clear example of a problem the Community as a whole asked for VEKN's attention and it was solved in a way many found elegant. > My point is that VEKN's decisions take into account all aspects of the game and are to help all aspects of the game. > Even friendly games. > If we practise our decks for a tournament that is at hand, then yes, we abide by the VEKN rules. No one wants to join one only to be DQ'd straight away. But this does not mean we agree on every single rule. It's still fun to play with 'Madness of the Bard' in private play, even if only to piss off Izaak The errata on Villein comes from the rarity of that card. We as a group don't have that problem - all of us have enough of the card - so don't really care about this piece of errata in general. For the 'flow of the game', it's a good decision. I never stated that the VEKN did or does a crappy job. But as every other organization, I think some of the decisions they make are great, and others stink. And as long as they ask for it, I will ask questions about whatever rule they invent, and vent my opinion when I think it might matter. Best example still being the way to treat the new cards; I disagree with them the chosen path is the right one. "They had forgotten the first lesson, that we are to be powerful, beautiful, and without regret." ~ Armand.

> Angel74 wrote: > > > Brum wrote: > > There IS a lack of respect and outright disregard for the people now running the game. > > > Since we're all 'running the game' now, that would mean we disrespect ourselves. i don't think that's the case. > > > I think it comes out of ignorance. > > > 'Ignorance', in this case, comes forth out of bad or incomplete information, or statements that leave a lot of room for interpretation. > To be crystal clear on this, there are no such "statements leaving room for interpretation" Tournament rules have been already changed accordingly for the future pdf set since last 02 december, with an official update annoucement Tournament rules on that are updated since then, accordingly When using V:EKN issued cards they must be color printed on standard paper and inserted into opaque sleeves before another Vampire: The Eternal Struggle or Jyhad card So, if any doubt can still arise on the matter, maybe it's about the "quality standard" of such prints self made by the players (to me it's not: it's crystal clear that we must print in color the pdf cards ourselves on standard quality paper) But i can bet that both Pascal and the other in the RT/IC will adress the point on "quality of the print" if they deem the question worth to be further detailed at tournament rules level best Emiliano vekn.net administrators staff

> nc-italy wrote: > So, if any doubt can still arise on the matter, maybe it's about the "quality standard" of such prints self made by the players (to me it's not: it's crystal clear that we must print in color the pdf cards ourselves on standard quality paper) > But i can bet that both Pascal and the other in the RT/IC will adress > the point on "quality of the print" if they deem the question worth to be further detailed at tournament rules level > 4.5 already waves its hands in that direction, specifically regarding cards which have deteriorated in quality. > Non-existant user wrote: > If a card becomes excessively worn through play or accidentally damaged in the current sanctioned tournament, or if the owner of the card must leave prior to the conclusion of a game, the judge may provide a proxy replacement card or (in the case of damaged or worn cards) require the player to sleeve all of his or her cards before play continues. > The motivation for this is presumably - at least in part - that the card should be readable by all players. (I'm not saying that this is the only reason!) It would seem reasonable that a poor quality reproduction is treated in the same way as one excessively worn through play.

> To be crystal clear on this, there are no such "statements leaving > room for interpretation" > > Tournament rules have been already changed accordingly for the future pdf set since last 02 december, with an official update annoucement > > Tournament rules on that are updated since then, accordingly > > When using V:EKN issued cards they must be color printed on standard paper and inserted into opaque sleeves before another Vampire: The Eternal Struggle or Jyhad card > A rule being written somewhere doesn't make it a good rule. DQing people from tournaments because they have good "proxies" instead of marked ones is nonsensical and poisonous for the game.

> Izaak wrote: > > A rule being written somewhere doesn't make it a good rule. > Point of the answer was not about the "good / bad" judgement on the rule given Was about the "statements leaving room for interpretation", that is: there are no statement leaving room for interpretation There has been an official annoucement and therefore an official tournament rules update on the official website (this one) Not "somewhere" > DQing people from tournaments because they have good "proxies" instead of marked ones is nonsensical and poisonous for the game. > Other people already asked you to be smart and to try to understand the simple question on this It's really up to you to try to understand then But please bear in mind that every people on the IC, RT and the DT is doing everything for the sake of the game and to keep the chanche of having it published again in the future Rule on printing the pdf set was made accordingly Take it as a necessary evil, if the case Emiliano vekn.net administrators staff

> Izaak wrote: > A rule being written somewhere doesn't make it a good rule. > > DQing people from tournaments because they have good "proxies" instead of marked ones is nonsensical and poisonous for the game. > It has been explained here that what you propose is harmful for the game. I would then consider your option worse than the one in the rules. You might disagree and have every right to. What I think is disrespectful is: -That you express yourself in this matter. -The fact that it has been explained that what you suggest is illegal and can bring legal action against VEKN. Yet, you still claim that enforcing IP law is "nonsensical and poisonous for the game". I have no doubt you love that game as much as most of us. I just think there's a problem with your logic and the way you express yourself in this matter.

> It has been explained here that what you propose is harmful for the game. > No it is not. Not any more harmful than making PDF sets available as "legal expansions". > The fact that it has been explained that what you suggest is illegal and can bring legal action against VEKN. > No it is not. Because it is for my personal use. Which is, by international law, not illegal. > I just think there's a problem with your logic and the way you express yourself in this matter > The problem with the logic is not on my side. It is one the side of VEKN that is making arbitrary decisions because they believe their fantasy future publisher gives a fuck. If he exists, he will not. Because proper proxies or not, anything VEKN related -even if it's engraved in gold- will go out of the window *anyway*. Therefore, the "new publisher" argument is flawed, leaving us with the e-bay argument, which as I pointed out earlier *also* flawed. That leaves us with zero reasons to have a restrictive and nonsensical rule in place other than the VEKN being thickheaded about the wording. > Other people already asked you to be smart > Smart, in this case, would be me to just ignore the silly ruling, print my cards and play with them and slap (figuratively speaking) the judge who bothers to check and DQ me in the face and let him re-do the table arrangements as I take my leave and never return to any tournaments of that particular organizer. Smart would be the VEKN rewrite a silly rule to be less restrictive and allow people to play the game the way they want with the only binding factor being the rules of the actual game.

> Angel74 wrote: > I also don't think that the people that keep the VEKN going can be sued if I decide to make my own cards, using the cardbacks and the logo's and all. There's no real connection between the VEKN, being an organization that runs tournaments and keeps track of a rating (?), and myself, being an individual, not directly linked in any way to the VEKN. I simply 'just' join their events, every once and while. > The heart of the matter is that VEKN can't be seen promoting or condoning a possible copyright infringement. Hence, the official standfor using PDF cards is what it is in the current rules. BTW If you attend VEKn tournaments you are a member of VEKN as every attendee gets a VEKN number. Finnish Politics!

> Izaak wrote: > Smart, in this case, would be me to just ignore the silly ruling, print my cards and play with them and slap (figuratively speaking) the judge who bothers to check and DQ me in the face and let him re-do the table arrangements as I take my leave and never return to any tournaments of that particular organizer. > If I were you, I wouldn't be overtly suprised or offended that when the new set arrives and you attend a VEKN sanctioned tounament when someone, judge or fellow player, asks to check if your copies from the new set are tournament legal or not. Especially after heavily implying several times that you will be breaking the said rule. Finnish Politics!

> nc-italy wrote: > When using V:EKN issued cards they must be color printed on standard paper and inserted into opaque sleeves before another Vampire: The Eternal Struggle or Jyhad card > > So, if any doubt can still arise on the matter, maybe it's about the "quality standard" of such prints self made by the players (to me it's not: it's crystal clear that we must print in color the pdf cards ourselves on standard quality paper) > Just to nitpick here, there is no such thing as "standard paper" in the U.S. A quick search of any online retailer shows a dozen different designations from several different companies, and "copy paper" from company A will not be indistinguishable from "copy paper" from company B. And cardstock is a kind of paper. This rule could just have easily been written as "When using V:EKN issued cards they must be color printed and inserted into opaque sleeves, before another Vampire: The Eternal Struggle or Jyhad card if necessary to satisfy the marked cards rule". You could then print "PDF fan set available for free download at vekn.net" on all of the vekn-issued cards. Non-Camarilla

> Lönkka wrote: > The heart of the matter is that VEKN can't be seen promoting or condoning a possible copyright infringement. Hence, the official standfor using PDF cards is what it is in the current rules. > > BTW If you attend VEKn tournaments you are a member of VEKN as every attendee gets a VEKN number. > How the things are printed makes absolutely no difference as to whether there is copyright infringement. If there is a copyright infringement in printing new cards on card stock, then there is also a copyright infringement in printing them on paper. Copyright infringement is all about unauthorized reproduction; the execution of the reproduction is irrelevant. The restriction doesn't protect anyone from copyright infringement exposure, and worse, in my opinion it does not have any value with regard to the stated intent (preserving game value to a future publisher). VtES store : www.prunesquallor.net Card supplies & games : stores.ebay.com/Prunesquallors-Secret-Cache

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > KevinM wrote: > > As nothing was ever said (or done) for the 15+ years prior to now, I can only hypothesize that there is a lack of respect, if not outright disregard, for the people now running the game. > > > Remember kids, no-one ever played 4CL. > > No-one ever enforced the Golden Tenets or the Sensible Players Tournament Rules before they were ratified. > > No-one ever set up a regional (then national) Jyhad League. > Did anyone ever do these things at a tournament? Nope. > jamesatzephyr wrote: > No-one has ever run a Continental Championship telling people that they openly disapprove of VP deals and that players need "powerful reasons" to make deals, rather than just following the rules (which demanded no such "powerful reasons"), because they disagreed with LSJ's rulings on the subject. > And that person, who shall remain nameless, was in the wrong, and many, many people told him so. > jamesatzephyr wrote: > If you remember any of these things happening, you are wrong - KevinM has rewritten reality. > Thanks for the rhetoric. It was incredibly helpful to the point at-hand. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> Angel74 wrote: > > > KevinM wrote: > > I'm curious by what reasoning people think that it's acceptable to defy the will of the people now running the game. > > > > As nothing was ever said (or done) for the 15+ years prior to now, I can only hypothesize that there is a lack of respect, if not outright disregard, for the people now running the game. > > > > Why is that, I wonder? > > > I know you do not represent the VEKN in what you just posted, but please - read it back and smell the arrogance in what you stated there. It's posts like that one that keeps many players away from this forum. > It's not the people here claiming that they are going to enter tournaments with disregard for the upcoming rules set. It's not openly questioning why the people that are in charge of the VEKN became in charge of VTES after everything that they've done. It's not saying that those in charge are bad players and/or people. It's not the hyperbolic, not the rhetoric, nor the factless-laden, personal-attack posts that appear here daily within the other helpful and insightful posts. It's not the constant bitching about 15-year old sleeve and card back arguments in the belief that a new administration -- which is disrespected, anyway -- will submit to minutia-based arguments and cater to the crowd that plays with and for Fear, and not with and for the Joy of the game. If you claim that I personally am keeping people away from VTES, you should look at my record of attracting more people to more VTES events than almost anyone in the world, no mater where or when they are held, with almost universal acclaim by the participants for the Joy of the events. If you claim that I'm arrogant when I ask even a single question, then I'd submit that when someone responds to a question with a personal attack, it is quite telling. The fact that I've come to expect that from a small, vocal subset of posters (and players) in the last 10 years has more to do with being unable to collect and retain players than anything I've ever done or said. > Angel74 wrote: > I think it's completely acceptable, and it has nothing to do with disrespect or disregard for the VEKN. I'm just asking questions and try to get a clear picture of the future of the game I have been playing for so many years. > So the VEKN should respect your posts and find them completely acceptable, because you're just asking questions and trying to get a clear picture of the future of the game, and you don't respect me and my posts when I ask a single question for the same reason? I see. > Angel74 wrote: > Since we're all 'running the game' now, ... > Labeling me as arrogant and then saying this? Wow. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> KevinM wrote: > > > jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > > > KevinM wrote: > > > As nothing was ever said (or done) for the 15+ years prior to now, I can only hypothesize that there is a lack of respect, if not outright disregard, for the people now running the game. > > > > > > > > Remember kids, no-one ever played 4CL. > > > > No-one ever enforced the Golden Tenets or the Sensible Players Tournament Rules before they were ratified. > > > > No-one ever set up a regional (then national) Jyhad League. > > > Did anyone ever do these things at a tournament? > Erm, the MJL/NJL ran a whole parallel tournament structure. That was precisely done at tournaments. That was half the point of it. Many people did all sorts of crazy things back in the day when the DCI tournament rules changed back and forth in unpredictable, lunatic ways. At tournaments. Many times. > KevinM wrote: > Nope. > Uh, yes. These things happened.

A lot of solid things have been stated about the way cards should be or could be printed, so I'll leave it at that. I still don't agree the VEKN could be sued for cards that I print in a way not supported by them, but as long as they think that's the case - okay, no problem, I'll use pieces of paper in front of cards in sleeves on VEKN tournaments. > nc-italy wrote: > To be crystal clear on this, there are no such "statements leaving > room for interpretation" > > Tournament rules have been already changed accordingly for the future pdf set since last 02 december, with an official update annoucement > > Tournament rules on that are updated since then, accordingly > > When using V:EKN issued cards they must be color printed on standard paper and inserted into opaque sleeves before another Vampire: The Eternal Struggle or Jyhad card > Emiliano, you know I respect you and many others in the VEKN, but this simply isn't true. Most obvious example is that 'standard paper' in the US differs from what 'standard paper' is in the Netherlands, both in size and weight. So, there's room for interpretation. And I don't even know about papersize and -weight in other countries. But I am getting the general idea now, after the last few posts. The rule is out there, decision has been made, final ruling is there. End of discussion. Got it. I won't spoil any future tournament by willingly bringing cards printed any different from what VEKN tournament rules state, for it's my own choice to attend said tournament. I still wish to disclaim: I never said the VEKN did a poor job on that, ever. There are some points I could comment on, but that's something for a whole new thread, if I ever decide it's worth to vent my personal opinion again on this forum. As for the new set and printing discussion: "color printed on standard paper and inserted into opaque sleeves before another Vampire: The Eternal Struggle or Jyhad card" it will be. "They had forgotten the first lesson, that we are to be powerful, beautiful, and without regret." ~ Armand.

And to Kevin: I am sorry that you seem to take great personal offence in what I said about your post. Please let me rephrase a small part of what I said, and hope you get what I meant this time: I know you do not represent the VEKN in what you just posted, but please - read it back and smell the arrogance in HOW YOU STATED what you stated there. It's posts like that one that keeps many players away from this forum. We seem to have a different view on the use of the words 'run' and 'running'. Other than that, I remain with my statement, to be continued below. > KevinM wrote: > It's not the people here claiming that they are going to enter tournaments with disregard for the upcoming rules set. > I immediately agree this is a bit silly and somewhat childish. It's not what I intend to do. It also is a personal issue of some folks in here, not the general opinion of VEKN. > It's not openly questioning why the people that are in charge of the VEKN became in charge of VTES after everything that they've done. > I will never deny the folks in charge of the VEKN did an awful lot for the game, I just don't see how that puts them 'in charge' of the game. Did they buy or obtain in any other way all the rights involved with the game? If so, then yes, they're 'in charge'. If they didn't, then sorry, but they're not. It's a common good as any other game now being carried by a fanbase. > It's not saying that those in charge are bad players and/or people. > Agreed - stating that would be silly, if not plain stupid. > It's not the hyperbolic, not the rhetoric, nor the factless-laden, personal-attack posts that appear here daily within the other helpful and insightful posts. > Comes with running a forum. More than everyone would like will these kind of posts pop up every once and while, and who of us can honestly say they NEVER got sucked into a somewhat emotional response which came out a little harsher than we intended it to be? > It's not the constant bitching about 15-year old sleeve and card back arguments in the belief that a new administration -- which is disrespected, anyway -- will submit to minutia-based arguments and cater to the crowd that plays with and for Fear, and not with and for the Joy of the game. > Since English is not my mother-language, I am not sure what you're saying here, so I will refrain from commenting on it. > If you claim that I personally am keeping people away from VTES, you should look at my record of attracting more people to more VTES events than almost anyone in the world, no mater where or when they are held, with almost universal acclaim by the participants for the Joy of the events. > Here's where it gets interesting. I don't claim you personally keep players away from V:tES. If you wish to play the Personal Record Card: there's no doubt in my mind that you, as 'Prince of Las Vegas', have meant more for the game than almost anyone in the world (that being your own words, I'll leave commenting on that to almost anyone in the world). Considering that my title once was 'Prince of Hilversum', a small town in the Netherlands of which most of the readers here probably have never heard, I don't quite deserve to even stand in the shadow of someone as great as yourself. But to me, it seems you and me both are the same kind if volunteers that try to promote the same game within their best behaviour and possibilities. If sheer numbers (of comparing Las Vegas with Hilversum) make you a better person than me, or even almost anyone in the world, then I'm still glad you do not represent the VEKN. Because if that the way they look at it, I will REALLY start to worry about the future of this game. No, I simply commented on the way you used your words in that single post. The arrogance was in the way you put your words, at least to me in how I interpreted them. Call it 'poor choice of words' then, and that being my opinion, backed up by some fellow players I showed your post to. > If you claim that I'm arrogant when I ask even a single question, then I'd submit that when someone responds to a question with a personal attack, it is quite telling. > Yes, well, you see, I never claimed that. It's how you interpreted it. > The fact that I've come to expect that from a small, vocal subset of posters (and players) in the last 10 years has more to do with being unable to collect and retain players than anything I've ever done or said. > ... no comment. > So the VEKN should respect your posts and find them completely acceptable, because you're just asking questions and trying to get a clear picture of the future of the game... > Ofcourse, that's why they have a forum in the first place and ask the community to vent their opinion on their ideas, right? Am I that unique in thinking just that? > ...and you don't respect me and my posts when I ask a single question for the same reason? I see. > Quite a difference here. Too bad you don't see it. Let me try to explain one final time. Your words, in the post I commented on, were: > I'm curious by what reasoning people think that it's acceptable to defy the will of the people now running the game. > Not a real question in there, but you seem to see asking questions (in this case even questions many of us seem to have) as 'defying the will of the people now running the game'. It's precisely this part of your post that I have difficulties with. More specific - two things bother me. The first being the fact that I think I have said, often enough, I think the VEKN has meant a great deal for V:tES, and now, because I don't agree with them on some parts, Í 'defy' them? Quite strong, if not ridiculously exaggerated, by you. The second thing being my interpretation of the words 'now running the game', which I explained earlier in this post. That's the part that, to me, has an arrogant sound to it. Nothing more, nothing less. > As nothing was ever said (or done) for the 15+ years prior to now, I can only hypothesize that there is a lack of respect, if not outright disregard, for the people now running the game. > Not really a question in this part either; just makes me wonder if you and I both have been reading completely different sources of communication between us players. Because I have seen comments all over on everyone ever 'running the game' all the time, it being on Wizards, WW or even CCP. This has always been part of the community, and will always be part of the community. It has nothing to do with who is 'running' things at this very moment, and it's not even unique to VEKN or V:tES for that matter. > Why is that, I wonder? > So here's the question you must have been talking about. And frankly, if that's the way you ask your questions to the community, you might want to reconsider the way you phrase them, because this one is not very specific. It even seems you're asking yourself this question, making it quite impossible for anyone to answer. > > Angel74 wrote: > > Since we're all 'running the game' now, ... > > > Labeling me as arrogant and then saying this? Wow. > This is a bit pathetic, and the part where you're losing quite some respect, if you ask me. You left out an important part of what I said there, coloring the quote to fit your own silly comment. You might have noticed one thing. The words 'run' and 'running', in their different contexts, were never mine. They were yours. I have disagreed on them from the beginning. That's why I used quotation marks on them all the time. I still think we all, as a community, are putting in effort to keep this game strong. The VEKN as a form of organization that offers a platform for tournament play and a tracking record (yes, amongst other things, I see those too, no worries), and us players to keep that very same platform existing. Without platform, the community will fall apart, and with out players, there's little use for a platform. Hence we all 'run' the game. That is how I see it, and many with me. You seem to have a different opinion. VEKN is God, and we bow to it. If I'm wrong, please elaborate on that part for a bit. I know other people who have meant a great deal to V:tES, but not always agreeing with the VEKN. Do these folks matter a lot less? Or might there be a slight chance we simply need eachother to keep our game existing? "They had forgotten the first lesson, that we are to be powerful, beautiful, and without regret." ~ Armand.

> Angel74 wrote: > Emiliano, you know I respect you and many others in the VEKN, but this simply isn't true. Most obvious example is that 'standard paper' in the US differs from what 'standard paper' is in the Netherlands, both in size and weight. So, there's room for interpretation. And I don't even know about papersize and -weight in other countries. > If the case, i'm pretty sure the rule will be modified to cover also what "standard" is considered for the various int'l standard But it's stands now it's crystal clear, as it was from the very beginning about the "new set" discussions, that vekn can't allow any centralized (say, country based) way of printing the pdf cards, nor we can allow the print of double-sided of those (new pdf) cards And people arguing for nothing against this should take into account that the various aspects about the matter (legal and so on) has been evaluated by the chairman and the other IC And they should be trusted, as they are the people in touch with the involved (copyright owners) companies and know well what can be done or not about the printing of the pdf sets, above all in the respect of keeping reasonable chanche for the game to be published again in the future Emiliano vekn.net administrators staff

> nc-italy wrote: > And people arguing for nothing against this should take into account that the various aspects about the matter (legal and so on) has been evaluated by the chairman and the other IC > Now this is a statement I think is very clear. 'Arguing for nothing' really says it all. And although I'm still not sure about every aspect of the matter of legality being evaluated, I WILL take your word for it. I will see it as a 'necessary evil' then, to use the new set as pieces of paper in front of official cards, and trust the VEKN enough that if my NC approves of my prints of the new cards, a VEKN tournament organizer elsewhere will automatically agree on them as well, since all room for interpretation is covered by the rule(s). "They had forgotten the first lesson, that we are to be powerful, beautiful, and without regret." ~ Armand.

> Angel74 wrote: > > > nc-italy wrote: > > And people arguing for nothing against this should take into account that the various aspects about the matter (legal and so on) has been evaluated by the chairman and the other IC > > > Now this is a statement I think is very clear. 'Arguing for nothing' really says it all. And although I'm still not sure about every aspect of the matter of legality being evaluated, I WILL take your word for it. > It's up to you (as for everyone) to trust the people in charge in the IC atm (i personally do, as i've seen a lot of good work done so far by them) And yes, afaik every aspect of the legal matter has been taken into account and evaluated, and by that the update in current tournament rules since last 02 december, about card allowed But i'm pretty sure also that IC will listen to any good suggestion/advice, if any, about the "print pdf" debated here, that could result in a better rule and set up about future pdf sets printing Emiliano vekn.net administrators staff

Thanks for clarifying. But I have my doubts about that last part of your post. I have read some pretty concerning things on the forum about the VEKN and how it's seen by some. I'll just say that I hope you're right. Good advice CAN come from debating things, even if said debate gets somewhat heated at some point. I'd like to think that's what a forum is for. If no desire for debate, then why run a forum under the VEKN flag? "They had forgotten the first lesson, that we are to be powerful, beautiful, and without regret." ~ Armand.

> Angel74 wrote: > Thanks for clarifying. But I have my doubts about that last part of your post. I have read some pretty concerning things on the forum about the VEKN and how it's seen by some. > > I'll just say that I hope you're right. > > Good advice CAN come from debating things, even if said debate gets somewhat heated at some point. I'd like to think that's what a forum is for. If no desire for debate, then why run a forum under the VEKN flag? > See, here lies the problem. There would be no open forum for open discussion, if the VEKN was some kind of elitist club. Which it isn't. Yes, I'm biased, as I'm NC, but I have been involved with the VEKN for about 14-15 years and I have never had the feeling that the powers that be are not willing to listen to good arguments. What I cannot understand is that there are people who are not involved with the VEKN who judge the book by it's cover. You can always talk to the people who run the VEKN. Send them a message with the menu on the left side of this website. If you have strong feelings about VTES and the player base, why not try to improve things from within (there can always be room for improvement)? The VEKN does not "run" VTES. The owner is still WW/CCP. The VEKN is trying to ensure that the playerbase remains at a healthy level and provides a fair playing field for all players participating in tournaments. Everything the VEKN does, is not for itself, but for the players out there. What players do in their friendly, private games, is entirely up to them: cardlimits, deck-type-shunning, proxies on paper, proxies on cardboard, etc. Just don't ask the VEKN to condone things which they know would be detrimental to the goals of the VEKN. Kepp on playing. B) pckvtes.wordpress.com

> Izaak wrote: > A rule being written somewhere doesn't make it a good rule. > > DQing people from tournaments because they have good "proxies" instead of marked ones is nonsensical and poisonous for the game. > And attempting to rail against something that is primarily about the copyright issues AND future marketability issues of this game is equally dense. If you want to debate what "standard paper" is, then I suggest you go to your local supermarket or newsagent and ask them for a reem of paper. The weight of that would be "standard paper". If you have issues getting nice 300+ dpi printing on your home computer, then it isn't too hard to find a nice printing place that will run off around 10-20 A4 pages for less than $15 (even at the slightly extortionist rates we tend to pay in Australia). If you have an issue with me, as a Judge and Prince, following this rule of VEKN-sanctioned tournaments... then grow up and get over the fact that things, in this instance, aren't going to go your way. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Just don't ask the VEKN to condone things which they know would be detrimental to the goals of the VEKN. > Which is in the discussion at hand, not the case. The onus is on VEKN to explain why silly rules are being added (and, likely enforced on NAC/EC level). The arguments why proper "proxies" will be forbidden so far have been: 1) Legality and IP issues. This is a flawed argument until VEKN starts selling and distributing said copies. There is as much IP infringement in printing black and white copies of the PDF than there is if you print them on card stock. *Creating and distributing* the PDF is what is breaking copyrights in the first place. What people do with it afterwards is irrelevant. I also -again- want to point out that I can, by international law, copy or reproduce *whatever* intellectual property that I legally acquired as long as it's for my own use. 2) The fantasy future publisher. For reasons I cannot possibly fathom, the VEKN believes that if a limited number of people use cardstock printed proxies, the FFP will see this as a drawback and not go through with his intended plan of printing and selling new cards. Now, of course in my world, I would see people going out of their way to make the fan-based cards as real as possible as an encouragement because apparently there is actual demand for those real cards I would create and sell. In fact, if I'd see everyone play with photocopies and slips of paper I'd conclude that the game is doing just fine without actual cards and move on to invest in another project. 3) The e-bay argument. By disallowing cardstock proxies VEKN believes they will prevent people from selling those cards on e-bay and present it as the real deal. Since whatever rule they make VEKN cannot control e-bay anyway, people that are inclined to do will do so anyway. The idea is probably that if those cards are illegal at tournaments people wouldn't buy them but that's speculation at best. Also, since there is no rarity involved you cannot possible make enough money from e-baying them to cover the cost of printing them in any amounts. So what we are left with is no valid arguments against properly sized and good looking new cards other than the "BECAUSE I SAY SO" from VEKN. > The VEKN is trying to ensure that the playerbase remains at a healthy level > If this is their goal, they are going the wrong direction. > If you have an issue with me, as a Judge and Prince, following this rule of VEKN-sanctioned tournaments... then grow up and get over the fact that things, in this instance, aren't going to go your way. > Thank you for another excellent contribution. If you don't want to understand the argument and cannot see past the blindfolds you got there, put the personal attacks in a nice PM. *Clearly* this discussion is nowhere like any other discussion about a convoluted decision made by the VEKN. The unfortunate fact is that you, among many others, see VEKN as the personifcation of holyness and as such will argue on their side even if they'd tell you it's best for the game to burn all your cards. If you want to be an ass about it and DQ the three guys that drove 300 miles to your tournament because they printed their new cards on 220g cardboard and cut some nice round corners instead of sticking 80 gram papers with an original card, feel free to do so. I may be the "vocal minority" but I don't give a fuck. I can have my opinion and am willing to change it once I have been convinced I'm wrong. At the moment, vain attempts by various people have been made by repeating the same untruths.

> Izaak wrote: > 1) Legality and IP issues. This is a flawed argument until VEKN starts selling and distributing said copies. There is as much IP infringement in printing black and white copies of the PDF than there is if you print them on card stock. *Creating and distributing* the PDF is what is breaking copyrights in the first place. What people do with it afterwards is irrelevant. I also -again- want to point out that I can, by international law, copy or reproduce *whatever* intellectual property that I legally acquired as long as it's for my own use. > What you fail to understand is that this is a civil matter, not a penal one. The point has never been that distributing a pdf is legal whereas selling cards is not, it is that the VEKN will not receive a C&D order from CCP/Wizards if they only do the first and cards do not end up for sale on ebay. Or to put it differently: everything is legal as long as nobody complains. > > 2) The fantasy future publisher. For reasons I cannot possibly fathom, the VEKN believes that if a limited number of people use cardstock printed proxies, the FFP will see this as a drawback and not go through with his intended plan of printing and selling new cards. > The step is very small between producing high quality prints of the pdf set and making fake cards. All it takes is a good scanner. Once someone starts making a business with selling prints, how long before the market is flooded with fake cards? That would be the end of the game: once a population is used to get what they want for free, it is nearly impossible to bring them back to the pay market (see: the music industry), and it is not worth the hassle for a niche game. A future publisher might also see the pdf set as easy value if the proxy players are willing to pay for better quality, official prints, but I think it is a fringe point at best: to make $$ out of VTES, all you have to do is to reprint KoT.

> Izaak wrote: > If you want to be an ass about it and DQ the three guys that drove 300 miles to your tournament because they printed their new cards on 220g cardboard and cut some nice round corners instead of sticking 80 gram papers with an original card, feel free to do so. > I don't really see how it differs from before. Previously, if someone came to a tournament and wanted to play with handwritten paper on cards used as proxies, would you (as an organizer) let him do it? If so, you can do the same with 220g proxies. If not, you can refuse. Of course, as a player you should always check the tournament policies. For my part, I would prefer a 220g nice looking VEKN card to a poor quality "legal" vekn card. But if, as an organizer and for whatever reason, I decide that players must conform to the tournament rules, and if I can't find a common ground with the player, then yes, I will DQ him. "None may challenge thy word while in thy domain." Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

What if it is the organizer who plays proxies? He, too, shall remain nameless...

> Izaak wrote: > So what we are left with is no valid arguments snip > other than the "BECAUSE I SAY SO" > To me at least, this seems to work both ways... Finnish Politics!

> Amenophobis wrote: > > > Angel74 wrote: > > Thanks for clarifying. But I have my doubts about that last part of your post. I have read some pretty concerning things on the forum about the VEKN and how it's seen by some. > > > > I'll just say that I hope you're right. > > > > Good advice CAN come from debating things, even if said debate gets somewhat heated at some point. I'd like to think that's what a forum is for. If no desire for debate, then why run a forum under the VEKN flag? > > > See, here lies the problem. > > There would be no open forum for open discussion, if the VEKN was some kind of elitist club. Which it isn't. Yes, I'm biased, as I'm NC, but I have been involved with the VEKN for about 14-15 years and I have never had the feeling that the powers that be are not willing to listen to good arguments. > Well, then the problem might even be non-existent. I already was under the impression that we could all give our opinions, sometimes that even leading to a change in rules or policy. Until I read some posts in which folks seemingly pretended they were actually more 'elite' than others, or other posting statements that got me doubting the openness of the VEKN. Suddenly we were 'defying the will of the VEKN, who were running the game', and 'arguing for nothing', while I was under the impression we were debating the implementation of the new set. What you just posted sounds a lot more sensible to me, so thanks for that. > What I cannot understand is that there are people who are not involved with the VEKN who judge the book by it's cover. You can always talk to the people who run the VEKN. Send them a message with the menu on the left side of this website. > Books will always be judged by their covers at first, but it's very good to get reassured in the fact the VEKN still has an open mind. > If you have strong feelings about VTES and the player base, why not try to improve things from within (there can always be room for improvement)? > Believe me, from where we are, we're already trying this. Dutch V:tES scene is still going strong; just not expanding as much as we would like. Dutch forum is active, and tournaments are still visited by many (for Dutch standards, that is). It's just becoming harder and harder promoting a game that's out of print, so I too see the urge for a restart, and can only hope it will come (with whatever help and/or influence the VEKN can contribute to it). > The VEKN does not "run" VTES. The owner is still WW/CCP. The VEKN is trying to ensure that the playerbase remains at a healthy level and provides a fair playing field for all players participating in tournaments. Everything the VEKN does, is not for itself, but for the players out there. > Good, that's what I like to read. I hope some others will read this too... > What players do in their friendly, private games, is entirely up to them: cardlimits, deck-type-shunning, proxies on paper, proxies on cardboard, etc. Just don't ask the VEKN to condone things which they know would be detrimental to the goals of the VEKN. > Fair enough. I already said - if the policy on the new set remains unchanged, I will never try to willingly go against the rules when I attend a VEKN event, and keep things like the carboard prints within our private games. > Kepp on playing. B) > Will do. Just a few hours ago I won a game with an Imbued deck - first time that worked out for me. "They had forgotten the first lesson, that we are to be powerful, beautiful, and without regret." ~ Armand.

> Izaak wrote: > If you want to be an ass about it and DQ the three guys that drove 300 miles to your tournament because they printed their new cards on 220g cardboard and cut some nice round corners instead of sticking 80 gram papers with an original card, feel free to do so. > I like how you made the false choice there, instead of pointing out that if the players in question knew enough to use 220g cardboard then they knew very well that they were breaking the tournament rules set up by the VEKN. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

Kevin is correct! Rules are rules and you have to follow them, even if you don't want to or think you know better.

> captain1arm wrote: > Kevin is correct! Rules are rules and you have to follow them, even if you don't want to or think you know better. > Or you make a tournament/league without VEKN sanction and don't bother with PDF sets.

> Cyrus wrote: > > > captain1arm wrote: > > Kevin is correct! Rules are rules and you have to follow them, even if you don't want to or think you know better. > > > Or you make a tournament/league without VEKN sanction and don't bother with PDF sets. > Or you can have an unsanctioned tournament with every fan made card that's ever been suggested anywhere on the internet if you want to use your card making skills.

> Izaak wrote: > The onus is on VEKN to explain why silly rules are being added (and, likely enforced on NAC/EC level). > They did, and you didn't like it. Johannes Walches (and any other people legally responsible for VEKN) don't like the idea of havin Hasbro + CCP arriving at their place to sue them for their life-savings and anything else the lawyers can get hold of. I don't get to choose for Johannes et al. I perfectly understand that they, from whatever advice they have, believe they have approximately two choices: 1) Create a rule that obviously encourages cards that are NOT of 'professional quality suitable for sale' like those formerly printed by WW. This way, they are SURE no lawyers come knocking looking to sue people. 2) Create a rule that clearly lets print 'proxy' quality cards, that may not be easily defined as anything other than a counterfeit card, which are 600+ dpi on double-glued-pressed and die cut cards. This way, Johannes et al may be liable for encouraging others to breach copyright and 'rob' Hasbro/CCP of their 'rightful' profits by encouraging counterfeiting and get happy lawyers handing over summonses for court cases. If Johannes et al want to choose the safer option, that makes sure they keep their businesses, homes and assets... I have to say, it sounds very responsible and caring of their families. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

I get the impression that we now just repeat the same arguments over and over again. In my opinion we should stop to feed THE TROLL (tm). There are two different opinions and neither side likes to step back. Though I don't want to risk a rebuke from Kev again in my opinion the pov.s are clear now and everybody can make up their minds. (I stop now reading this thread, do whatever you want.) Baron of Frankfurt

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > This way, they are SURE no lawyers come knocking looking to sue people. > Would distributing a book as a PDF be acceptable if you clearly stated that the users should not use a professional printer, and no proper binding was allowed? You could still get sued and it would still be unethical. I really hope VEKN will at least implement a supplemental tournament format without the neo-vtes cards for those of us who want to play the real game.

> Cyrus wrote: > I really hope VEKN will at least implement a supplemental tournament format without the neo-vtes cards for those of us who want to play the real game. > The Tournament Format for the real game is called Standard Constructed. Reality is: -We don't have a company releasing the game -The fans want to keep it going, the competitors want to keep competing, the friends from all over the Continents that made friendships around this game still want to meet to play it in events, the fans that want to keep having friendlies in their towns want the game to have support, and all of this was happening before and will continue. Maybe not at the same rates. But the game will probably survive for a long time. This new set is a step in that direction. What you seem to be talking about is a Constructed Tournament with Set Limits, as per 6.1.1 in the Tournament Rules. To me, any previous released card in a protector is exactly as real as one of such cards with a printed sheet of paper covering it, IF it holds to VEKN rules. It is the price we have to pay for having no company releasing this and all its pros and cons have been tirelessly debated here. Please lets not start a discussion about the word "real". We all understand what Cyrus means. I just wanted to point out that the new cards will be real for the most of us and that they should have the same rules rights and restrictions as any other VtES card previously released by WotC or CCP/WW. BTW: VEKN can do the new sets in the format that has been explained with 100% assurance that it is legal. Doing something else (whatever it might be) might be illegal. This does not compare with the distribution of a book in PDF, because we are distributing new cards, not ones previously released. In fact, that is the reason CCP themselves changed the art in new releases of certain past cards. To avoid the infringement of art copyright. Cheers! Tiago

Cyrus, The precedent has been set by other games taken over by the community. AFAIK Trek:CCG works that way, and others. As long as there aren't companies making significant profits from the centralised actions of the card creators, there has been no real action by the companies. Reproducing someone else's book in any format breaches copyright. The issue here is that we can create new things that will use someone elses copyrighted material (Princes, Disciplines, Capacities, Generation, Clans, the "Tap Mechanic", etc) without either copying their entire work. Hence the mention of the other CCGs what have become community-run. The PDF sets are 'real VTES' just not 'real money-making VTES'. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

The VEKN will keep an open mind. However the support and enthusiasm about the new set has outnumbered the resistance by far in all the feedback we gathered during events, in forums and other places.

I really hope they'd make more group 5 Tremere Antitribu. There are only two vampires at the moment is there not?

> Kude wrote: > I really hope they'd make more group 5 Tremere Antitribu. There are only two vampires at the moment is there not? > It's the case for each non-bloodline sabbat clan. That's because only one sababt extension have gr5 sabbat vampire, SoC.