Some time ago we talked in the Forum about some cards people saw as too strong and liked it to be changed.
We came to the conclusion that we should wait how the cards affect tournaments in the current season.
With the NAC and the EC played I think it's time to ask participating players and observers about what they think about that matter now.
I suggest that we sum up problematic cards first and talk about them in different threads.
In my opinion problematic cards are cards that doesn't fit the intended goals and the spirit of the game or that alter the game to an extreme degree. It is NOT about availability of cards.
So please if you observed problematic cards throughout this year tell us about it with a SHORT reason, why you think that card is bad for the game.
Please DON'T discuss it in this thread, I'd like to open up an extrathread per problematic card.
This is just for letting others know about your opinion. The decision if this card is altered, banned or stay the same is clearly up to the Rulesmonger Pascal Bertrand.
Baron of Frankfurt
Ashur tablets - recursion is highly powerful, and now available to everybody
Villein - Hoses minion tap, while providing much better effect. In relation with >> Lilith blessing - free vamps.
Lilith's blessing - Small jake washington once per game per vampire. I feel everything would be ok if it was unique.
We've had ways to have free vampires before.
And much better than this, because they would be full.
Minion Tap - Voter Captivation each turn is way worse because it's a mechanic where you usually deal damage in the process.
I see nothing wrong with the way the game is.
It seems to me Edward Vignes decks would have a ball in this year's EC, if packing enough Majesties.
#1 Lilith's Blessing - it makes everything you put on the table free. I would have liked the cardtext to be "choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control with no Villein who has no blood ..."
#2 Giant's Blood - it turns the game into a lottery who gets to start with 40 pool. Also, if EVERY deck packs one, it's probably too good.
#3 Tupdog/Rock Cats in general. Not because it's broken per se, but because it disrupts tables beyond reason and needs very specific hosers to be stopped (Gran Madre, Tension).
#4 Maris Streck. No her special didn't really come into play during any games I played, but it really, really, should be once per action.
#5 Heart of Nizchetus. Also Heart of Timeout and Stalling.
That's the five I can think of. Of those, #1, #2 and #4 are just broken cards, whereas the other two have in my opinion such a negative effect on the actual playing of the game that something should be done about it.
Mainly I have to say that instead of thinking about nerfing cards we should think about clever deckmaking to stop people using broken cards.
Giant's Blood is ok like it is, it's only one every game, if everyone plays one it means that 4 people will discard a card cause someone 'd played it before, so for me no change needed.
Lilit's Blessing, I think that maybe Unique master would be perfect on it. Anyway, If everybody is able to put vampires in play is cause there are less people playing Sudden Reversal. One SR on Villein and you will avoid your prey having a free vampire. So let's play more Sudden Reversal.
Ashur + Liquidation, let's play more erciyes Fragment, trochomancy and other cards to stop those decks.
Maris Streck, she's great, she's powerful, but looking to the TWD archive, this year only 3 decks with her have won tournaments, I think you can find other vampires on more TWD (Nana Buruku for example) than Maris. So no need to change.
Heart of Nizchetus. if this pisses you off, play lots of cards able to destroy equipments, like Anarch troublemaker which is also helpful for killing your prey.
I think that we need to think about ways of building decks capable of dealing with those cards in a major tournament instead of thinking about nerfing them.
Just my 2 cents
> acbishop wrote:
> Mainly I have to say that instead of thinking about nerfing cards we should think about clever deckmaking to stop people using broken cards.
>
> (...)
>
> I think that we need to think about ways of building decks capable of dealing with those cards in a major tournament instead of thinking about nerfing them.
>
> Just my 2 cents
>
I agree completely. Like any other strong mechanic, the ones mentioned above have the good effect of forcing people to make decks in a smarter way.
Like I've written many times in the past, nothing wrong with that.
I would like to remind you that the thread starter specifically asked not to actually discuss the cards or opinions in this thread but instead just write which cards you think are or are becoming a problem in the game. If you think the game is fine as it is, then there is no reason to post here.
I suppose if 10-12 people think Giant's Blood or Lilith's Blessing are too strong *because* they force you to play a specific counter to them, then that fact warrants its own discussion where you can state your opinion.
if only people who think there are cards becoming a problem in the game post here we won't have real statistics about what people think. So, you think some cards are becoming a problem., fine with that.
Thiago and I we think the game is good as it is.
I didn't want to look like I was attacking your post or anything like that, so I apologize if you feel that way.
From what I've seen, Lilith's Blessing is mainly a problem only because of Villein (Villein + master phase action with Lilith's Blessing being the most common use). So the root problem here is mainly Villein (and the Trifle aspect), not necessarily Lilith's Blessing on its own.
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
Parity Shift - questionably balanced, but mostly I don't think it goes in the spirit of the game. much of VTES is about pool management, either spend it on permanents or keep it in reserve to avoid getting ousted. and here's this one single card that strongly rewards you for losing/spending pool. this is called "Rubber Banding" in videogames, where usually only the AI gets to benefit. it's very silly to see it in a competitive multiplayer game.
Ashur Tablets - I hate how sometimes the whole table has to wait 5 minutes for the card to be resolved because the player is indecisive about what 13 cards to take back. and then deciding which 1 card to bring to hand. and then which 1 card to discard. and then shuffling the deck. and then not sure if they gained the 3 pool. HURRY UP PEOPLE!
My plan is to put up a short, straight discussion about one card each in which every interested VEKN-member can state his point of view ONCE and strengthen it with facts and arguments, followed by a poll with different options of nerfing and, most important, NO nerfing of course.
I'm tired of these 12 pages-threads where 3-5 people just repeat the obvious POVs and come to no decision. Maybe this time we can make clear statements and come to an end very soon with a poll. This poll doesn't guarantee anything of course, neither nerf or keep it that way. But it will hopefully be a valid score of the interested and caring players. Maybe the Rulesteam / Pascal Bertrand could keep these poll results in mind when deciding about cards.
So first a short discussion for about 7 days.
After that a poll about the suggested changes or no change for another 14 days.
You are free to let all players know of those polls. I'd be glad if you could place a hint in all forums.
The list of problematic cards so far:
1. Ashur Tablets
2. Villein
3. Lilith's Blessing
4. Giant's Blood
5. Maris Streck
6. Heart of Nizchetus
7. Parity Shift
8. Target Vitals
9. No Secrets from the Magaji
10. Tupdog
11. Liquidation
I try to be neutral here, but I don't want to discuss possibly every card in the game. We have to focus on real problems, otherwise this leads to nothing (again). Please try to be serious about this thread. I don't want you to mention cards like Voter Captivation or Immortal Grapple. We should limit this thread to cards which many players see a problem in.
Of course this also is a thread for the people, who don't want any change at all. Please don't try to counter every argument of the other participants in the following discussions. Just say why you like the card the way it is and vote in favour of no change. If you like to convince a poster I suggest to do it in PMs. My goal is to have a clear pro/contra thread, where a VEKN-member can follow the POVs and come to his own conclusions for the poll. I hope you all want that too.
I'd like to start the first thread for a card about Wednesday, because the players that participated in the EC need time to recover, allright?
Baron of Frankfurt
I would hardly put Giant's Blood or Rock Cat on that list. And I'd be hesitant about how big of a problem Maris Streck is.
I would definitely add Deep Song, No Secrets of the Magaji, Touch of Clarity, and Una. Maybe Eyes of Argus, New Carthage, and Summon History.
I know other people would definitely want to add Pentex to that list (though I don't think Pentex is that big of a problem).
Overall though, I'm fairly satisfied with how things are. I don't think we need to change anything (but if we do, then those are some of the cards I think that are more problematic).
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
If somebody mentions a card you see as a problem too please hit the "Thank You"-button so I can see, if there are more people feeling bad about Rock Cat or Deep Song (or Taste of Vitae wtf.).
Baron of Frankfurt
1. Ashur Tablets
2. Immortal Grapple
3. Lilith's Blessing
4. Giant's Blood
5. Earth Meld
6. Pentex Subversion
7. Parity Shift
8. Tupdog
9. Freak Drive
10. Voter Captivation
11.Taste of Vitae
12. Heidelberg Castle
I wouldn't add villein here, it's just a blood to pool conversion, problematic are cards that give blood.
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
> echiang wrote:
> Overall though, I'm fairly satisfied with how things are. I don't think we need to change anything (but if we do, then those are some of the cards I think that are more problematic).
>
If you are happy with the game so far I think you shouldn't feel the urge to list cards as problematic. So I won't add those cards to the list, if you don't mind.
Baron of Frankfurt
Villein - This is a very weird design. There was a discussion about bloat being too easy with Blood Doll and Minion Tap. Tables timed out. So Vessel was made to hose Blood Doll, which was successful. Then Villein came to hose Minion Tap, and just completely took it´s place. I feel games time out more than ever now - I might be misinformed, but I´ve heard something about 15 of 24 tables timed out in turn 1 of the FCC yesterday. And with Lilith´s Blessing it gets even better.
Ashur Tablets - Has made recurssion too strong. I think VTES should be more about players interaction by minions taking actions than players looking in ash heaps, shuffling their decks and playing solitaire. Leave that to MTG.
(Note: I don´t like errata/banning/etc, I prefer some decent, versatile hosers. For master-recurssion cards like Trochomancy and Erciyes Fragments are nice, but not enough. For Villein I don´t know - maybe a card like Powerbase Luanda enabling rushes targeting Villeined vamps or Bahari could be something. Just from the top of my head.)
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
Thumbs down on No Secrets From the Magaji.
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
-Friedrich Nietzsche
brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/
> Joscha wrote:
> The list of problematic cards so far:
>
> 1. Ashur Tablets
>
Ashur Tablets aren't a problem because they require a full Master phase action to play, the pool gain isn't really significant, the cards put back into the library aren't guaranteed to be drawn in any order, or at all, and they can be removed from the game by another Methuselah drawing her Tablets first.
> Joscha wrote:
> 2. Villein
>
Yes, a problem. I've heard many suggestions for "fixing" this card, and they've all been posted elsewhere. Perhaps it'll be revamped someday.
> Joscha wrote:
> 3. Lilith's Blessing
>
Yeah, this is a problem.
> Joscha wrote:
> 4. Giant's Blood
>
GB only became a problem with Villein, and it would have been played anyway, and it's *already* once per game, so how much more do you want to manage it?
> Joscha wrote:
> 5. Maris Streck
>
??? She's powerful, but hardly a problem card.
> Joscha wrote:
> 6. Heart of Nizchetus
>
Heart is certainly one of the most powerful cards ever created, but it's neither played enough nor has been shown to be a key component in any particular deck to be considered a problem.
> Joscha wrote:
> 7. Parity Shift
>
Parity Shift has been overpowered since the beginning of Jyhad and needs to be addressed. I'm a big fan of 'Once per game' for these types of cards -- OPG should have been the answer to Memories of Mortality, too -- but it looks hopeless as the card was never addressed in 15+ years, so why would it be now?
> Joscha wrote:
> 8/9. Tupdog
>
Neither Tupdog nor Rock Cat are a significant problem because they show up incredibly rarely.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017
Kev, from the first mail:
> Joscha wrote:
> So please if you observed problematic cards throughout this year tell us about it with a SHORT reason, why you think that card is bad for the game.
>
> Please DON'T discuss it in this thread, I'd like to open up an extrathread per problematic card.
>
Finnish Politics!
> Joscha wrote:
> My plan is to put up a short, straight discussion 1. Ashur Tablets
>
What's broken is its combo with Liquidation. Otherwise, it's quite a useful card. It gives combat decks (like those based on Thaumaturgy combat cards) a better chance to achieve anything.
> Joscha wrote:
> 2. Villein
>
Is a big problem. Should not hinder players from using Minion Taps. MTs are a necessity in some decks (like the Ariadna hunt deck).
> Joscha wrote:
> 3. Lilith's Blessing
>
Well, don't know. Seems not to be a big issue. Would not cry a tear for it though.
> Joscha wrote:
> 4. Giant's Blood
>
This one is certainly fine.
> Joscha wrote:
> 5. Maris Streck
>
Ain't broken that much.
> Joscha wrote:
> 6. Heart of Nizchetus
>
A strong one, but fine with me. One can block it, can get DIed, can get stolen on many occasions.
> Joscha wrote:
> 7. Parity Shift
>
I like it.
> Joscha wrote:
> 8. Tupdog
>
Don't know. It's extremely frequent in Poland, though.
> Joscha wrote:
> 9. Rock Cat
>
Nothing broken about it.
> Lech wrote:
> 2. Immortal Grapple
>
Nothing wrong in here. The card's been around for ages. Does not help against Ahrimanes greately, does it now.
> Lech wrote:
> Pentex Subversion
>
Broken only when combined with The Red Star. Apart from that, I can see absolutely no problem with this one. Anthelios breakes many master cards, however.
> Lech wrote:
> 5. Earth Meld
> [...]
> 9. Freak Drive
> 10. Voter Captivation
> 11.Taste of Vitae
> 12. Heidelberg Castle
>
Good cards. We need them around.
Joscha: sorry, we don't have to follow your original intent for this thread. Bug someone for moderator status.
> KevinM wrote:
>
> > Joscha wrote:
> > 1. Ashur Tablets
> >
> Ashur Tablets aren't a problem because they require a full Master phase action to play, the pool gain isn't really significant, the cards put back into the library aren't guaranteed to be drawn in any order, or at all, and they can be removed from the game by another Methuselah drawing her Tablets first.
>
Ashur Tablets aren't a problem because of their power level, but because tournament games have time limits. You know better than anyone that 5-player games already have enough trouble finishing.
> KevinM wrote:
>
> > Joscha wrote:
> > 8/9. Tupdog
> >
> Neither Tupdog nor Rock Cat are a significant problem because they show up incredibly rarely.
>
This is not a valid counterargument. Either they are problematic or not. (And when everyone realizes I am right and permits proxies in official tournaments this argument will finally die).
Otherwise, Kevin's analysis is spot on as usual.
I like the irony of the fact that some of the people who are complaining about thread jacking here helped to do the same in the "Expansion Update" thread.
Since I think there is really no problem in either, I think it is very unproductive to ask folks to comment about a subject only in the way you want or agree.
Do you think I should start a thread called "Comment here why you thing the game is fine"?
I firmly believe (or have faith) that the vast majority of the players are ok with the cards the way they are.
Asking only the opinion of those that aren't ok with things, will cause warped view of the subject.
I'm sorry for your time. I will not post in this thread again.
Also because I have other duties to attend in this forum and little time to do them well.
Life never stops.
Cheers!
Tiago
> Brum wrote:
> Since I think there is really no problem in either, I think it is very unproductive to ask folks to comment about a subject only in the way you want or agree.
> Do you think I should start a thread called "Comment here why you thing the game is fine"?
>
> I firmly believe (or have faith) that the vast majority of the players are ok with the cards the way they are.
> Asking only the opinion of those that aren't ok with things, will cause warped view of the subject.
>
Please don't stop to comment on cards you think are fine (in the relevant thread). I need those people maybe more than those who complain about Taste of Vitae or Earth Meld.
My goal is to get a good evaluation about if the majority of people really think that there are problematic cards around. So the players that don't think so are of major interest for me.
I'd like to settle a dispute here, not to keep away those who like the game as it is.
Baron of Frankfurt
> Dorrinal wrote:
> Joscha: sorry, we don't have to follow your original intent for this thread. Bug someone for moderator status.
>
Of course you are right . But it would be kind of you if you could support my intentions and help to settle those annoying quarrels. If you'd comment in the relevant threads your arguments will surely be looked upon more often. It's in your interest too.
Baron of Frankfurt
In the distant past of VTES, rules teams made changes to many cards that were either too strong or too weak, thus improving gameplay. We should be open to such revisions. My list:
1. Carlton van Wyck. He appears in every game I play. He is too cheap for what he does. He absorbs vampires' actions, usually with impunity. Most of my decks must spent significant resources to burn him in combat, usually 2 or 3 cards if they can do it at all. It should also not be possible to burn a diablerist by surprise by recruiting Carlton after the fact. Diablerie is already risky. I recently had two vampires burned by Carlton in the same game when he was brought back through Necromancy recursion. Suggested revision: 3 blood cost (minimum), and "During any Methusaleh's discard phase, you may burn Carlton to burn a vampire who has committed diablerie this turn."
2. Villein. According to reports, it was not playtested in its current form. Hoses Minion Tap while being better than Minion Tap. Day 1 Final of the EC timed out because of extensive Villein-related pool recursion - check out the tournament report on this site. Too powerful for a trifle. If I could go back and have input on the design, I would change the first sentence to "Put this card on a vampire you control and move 5 blood from that vampire to your pool." At the very least it should not hose Minion Tap so badly (which admittedly needed a bit of hosing).
3. Bounce cards. So you're being bled heavily by Malkavians, Toreadors, and/or any vampires with Dominate. Now you're also being bled heavily by other Methusalehs' vampires. I guess you should have played bounce yourself! Bounce is too cheap for what it can do. All bounce cards should reduce the redirected bleed by 1.
4. Target Vitals. This card has no requirements and no cost, but its effect is that of a card requiring a superior discipline, and a very good superior at that since it can affect ANY damage-dealing strike. Hands, weapons, thaumaturgy, bats: anything. Compare it to Potence strikes that CAN'T be used on guns or bats and that still allow an opponent to press, and that, say, require to get +2 damage. Two damage is a lot, and it is often impossible or very costly to avoid the effect. Remove the "cannot press this round" clause at least. Since when do the undead have "vitals" anyway?
5. Lilith's Blessing. A storyline card that was not playtested, AFAIK. The combination with Villein is too stupid. At the least, Bahari should be a sect, causing the new Bahari to lose titles and anarch status.
6. Liquidation. A storyline card that was not playtested, AFAIK. 3 pool for free and you get to put cards in your ash heap to be recursed with copious tech? Really? At least remove the cards from the game.
7, 8. Heart of Nizchetus and Giant's Blood should cost at least one more pool than they do.
9. Parity Shift. I don't have a huge problem with it, but I think it should require a Primogen instead of a Prince or Justicar. This is an idea from Matt Wedge. This would immensely balance the power of Prince/Justicar decks with other decks, political and otherwise, and add welcome value to the primogen title. The idea also fits the source material as politically the Primogeniture maintainted the balance of power.
Wow, that rant felt good!
I wasn't at the EC this year (meh ), but judging by what I've seen on the local scene over here:
1) Villein + Lilith's Blessing combo. Pretty much *every* deck packs this, and it's a bit ridiculous. Much better compact pool gain than anything else, with no requirements
2) Villein by itself. Something to make Minion Taps less good was warranted, but Villein went totally overboard. The number of Villeins in decks nowadays is... silly. Plus the lottery of who is able to do Villein + Giant's Blood first in the game (and get a huge advantage) is too random for my taste.
3) Ashur Tablets. Very good recursion with no requirements isn't something that the game needed.
4) Target Vitals. It's just too good. It's better than many discipline-based combat options, and it absolutely overshadows the other Target cards. It needs a nerf. Being able to cancel it with just one combat card might be a decent fix.
5) *Maybe* Lilith's Blessing by itself. It's very strong, and it should probably have been made a Unique. The main problem is the combo with Villein, though.
Other stuff I don't really see as a problem. Yes, Parity Shift is extremely strong, but it's a vote and there are multiple ways of dealing with those. Plus it requires a title, so you can see it coming. Yes, Maris Streck and the Heart of Cheating can slow down a game -- but there are tons of cards that can do that, it's not an isolated problem and imho doesn't make those cards into a problem.
1) Tupdog - the most underpriced vampire in the game. Some combat stars like Beast, Leatherface of Detroit looks pale compared to him. Add graverobbing/ raw recruit to the picture and you have a deck that causes majority of others to not be able to do even single action during a game.
2) Villein - insanely powerfull. Minion Tap was a lot more balanced. With Giant's blood and lilith's blessing it's just stupid. Without Villein Giant's blood and lilith's blessing are fine.
3) Ashur tablets - makes liquidation broken. It adds too much "solitaire type of playing" to the game. Makes pool gain to easy, recursion too available (should be restricted to necromancy clans) and last, but not least, cause too many timeouts
> PetriWessman wrote:
> The number of Villeins in decks nowadays is... silly.
>
(No greater than the number of Minion Taps before Villein was printed.)
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
I would add additionally:
1. Jack Washington (Hunter)
2. Anthelios
3. Direct Intervention
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
I just want to mention, that most problematic cards are so because of environment, so changes in it can greatly change the list of such cards.
My list by now:
Villein
Ashur tablets
Govern the un...
both DI
Parity shift
All multiple Master Phase Vamps
NC Russia
> Joscha wrote:
> My goal is to get a good evaluation about if the majority of people really think that there are problematic cards around.
>
No offense, but this is an impossible endeavor. Most of the people who play VTES don't even post here. There's no way to use this site as a way to find out what the majority of VTES players think about anything, unfortunately.
It's weird how people deliberately disregard the original intent of the topic, even though it was often explained by the author...
Villein, just because, and Lilith's Blessing with it. Those were just unnecessary. Villein for multiple of reasons, Lilith's because of Villein, and the lack of Unique status.
There are tricky things in the game, and Ashur Tablets might be one to add on the list, but it's not really that much of an issue compared to Villein.
So:
Villein
Lilith's Blessing
"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise
garourimgazette.wordpress.com/
www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines
> Kraus wrote:
> It's weird how people deliberately disregard the original intent of the topic, even though it was often explained by the author...
>
Well, while I can understand Joscha's desire to constrain the discussion in a certain way, that's not how the internet works.
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." Some Assamite said that about online forums once, if I remember correctly.
> Kushiel wrote:
> Well, while I can understand Joscha's desire to constrain the discussion in a certain way, that's not how the internet works.
>
Why can't a forum have an 'agenda' like a meeting? The point of having a topic line in a forum is to have the discussion about the topic in the title. Last time I checked there are people at the other end of all of these internet posts and 'blaming the internet' for why people can't stick on topic is like blaming the ocean for rainclouds.
[/end rant and diversion of thread on my part]
1. Villein
- Hoses Minion Tap
- Trifle
- Overpowered synergy with Lillith's Blessing
- Dislike the ruling that 'move' = 'steal' (as per the LSJ ruling on Villein)
((I still think that Voter Cap should have been the target of our Minion-Tap Bloating Hatred and Villein need not have been created))
2. Any "Auto-Include" card.
- If it 'must' go in any deck than it is probably too powerful. This does exclude 'staple' cards (e.g. Blood Doll/Vessel, Wakes, etc) but is meant to include cards like Carlton, Pentex, Wash, etc. Those cards that people immediately ask "How are you going to deal with X?"
- This could potentially include the free easy availability of Dominate-flick but that's a separate debate
3. Heart of Cheating
- I think the hand customisation ability is too strong. I'd be happy with "Look at the top 3 cards and reorder them any way you please" or "Look at the top 3 cards, place two of them on the bottom of your library and one in your hand (discard as usual)" or similar... but there is no real cost to this card. You lose no library material and pay 1 pool to be able to customise your hand in perpetuity.
- Player indecisiveness (which is people's issue with Ashur Tablets)
4. Target Vitals
- No other target is considered. This at least shows that T:V is well above the power curve of the other Targets.
- +2 damage usually only comes about with for 1 blood or at , sure it is preventable two ways (discarding cards, preventing the initial strike) but it is still a very big effect.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> 4. Target Vitals
> - No other target is considered.
>
Target Hand is great with Trap in low(ish) combat environment against fatties.
But yeah, TV is kinda too much of a no brainer.
Finnish Politics!
> Lönkka wrote:
>
> > Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> > 4. Target Vitals
> > - No other target is considered.
> >
> Target Hand is great with Trap in low(ish) combat environment against fatties.
>
> But yeah, TV is kinda too much of a no brainer.
>
Yeah. I mean, did it actually need the 'opposing minion cannot use presses this round' clause?
I wouldn't say T:V is overpowered, though - at least not in the same way as Villein, or Lilith's! And let's not call those cards overpowered. Game breaking would be more accurate.
And T:V is a really cool addition to some decks. Even though Lucky Blow is more than redundant these days...
"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise
garourimgazette.wordpress.com/
www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines
> Kraus wrote:
>
> > Lönkka wrote:
> >
> > > Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> > > And T:V is a really cool addition to some decks. Even though Lucky Blow is more than redundant these days...
> > >
> > Then again, you can use them both.
> >
> > Say, with Mr. Muddles (aka. Muddled Vampire Hunter)...
> > Now if one could easily add a superior Inspire Greatness to that too...
> >
Finnish Politics!
> Kushiel wrote:
>
> > Joscha wrote:
> > My goal is to get a good evaluation about if the majority of people really think that there are problematic cards around.
> >
> No offense, but this is an impossible endeavor. Most of the people who play VTES don't even post here. There's no way to use this site as a way to find out what the majority of VTES players think about anything, unfortunately.
>
Yep, true. But we can look what the majority of those people think, who read this forum regularly. That at least. I think these people are very interested in the game and sacrifice a lot of time for their hobby. So I hope they make up their minds and come to an honest conclusion.
I will start the first four threads now, the others will follow after 3 or 4 days. I don't want to flood the forum that much. Sorry for the "double" because Xaddam raised the issue in addition. I hope to get a clear seperation between the cards so you can look at the cons and pros before vote in the later poll.
Baron of Frankfurt
> Joscha wrote:
> Yep, true. But we can look what the majority of those people think, who read this forum regularly. That at least. I think these people are very interested in the game and sacrifice a lot of time for their hobby. So I hope they make up their minds and come to an honest conclusion.
>
Sure. Don't get me wrong, as a discussion topic, I think what you've done here is a good idea. I just want to make sure that you're not mistaking that discussion for a meaningful representation of anything like what the majority of people who play VTES necessarily think about these cards.
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> Why can't a forum have an 'agenda' like a meeting? The point of having a topic line in a forum is to have the discussion about the topic in the title. Last time I checked there are people at the other end of all of these internet posts and 'blaming the internet' for why people can't stick on topic is like blaming the ocean for rainclouds.
>
I wasn't blaming the internet or apologizing for it. I was explaining how it works. Are you actually surprised by the fact that people often don't want to submit to an autocratic declaration of what they're allowed to talk about and how they're allowed to talk about it?
> Kushiel wrote:
> I wasn't blaming the internet or apologizing for it. I was explaining how it works. Are you actually surprised by the fact that people often don't want to submit to an autocratic declaration of what they're allowed to talk about and how they're allowed to talk about it?
>
Here's my point about "allowed and not allowed". You can talk about anything you darned well please... if that doesn't match the topic, you are free to start your own thread somewhere else on another topic. But please, for the benefit of those who DO want to engage in a particular topic, don't hijack threads. It's about being polite, having conversations that are relevant to the ideas and its not 'autocratic'... the internet is an opt-in scenario. You don't have to post, you can just read it and walk away.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Aaron wrote:
> 6. Liquidation. A storyline card that was not playtested, AFAIK.
>
Liquidation was in the 10th Anniversary Set, not in a storyline.
You're right about the absence of playtesting though.
You've indicted 2 of 10 from that set.
Seems that 3 of 10 are very popular, the other 7 almost never see play.
> Aaron wrote:
> 1. Carlton van Wyck. He appears in every game I play. He is too cheap for what he does.
>
Probably too cheap. And I've gotten to the point that every deck I build has a way to deal with Carlton (i.e. when I'm putting a deck together, one of the questions I have to answer is "what does it do if Carleton hits the table?"). But not so over the top that he needs something done. He doesn't ruin games or make certain decks pointless. Mostly, he is just a drag to run into, and shows up all the time.
> 2. Villein. According to reports, it was not playtested in its current form.
>
Yeah, as previously noted, we never saw Villein in its final form, but saw 3 versions of it before it hit the final form of publication. If it said "A vampire may only have 1 Villein", it would probably be fine.
> 5. Lilith's Blessing. A storyline card that was not playtested, AFAIK.
>
I'm pretty sure it was in one of the playtest sets. I don't know that it got playtested *much*, but I'm pretty sure it was in there somewhere.
> 6. Liquidation. A storyline card that was not playtested, AFAIK.
>
Wasn't a storyline card; was in the 10th boxes. I don't remember seeing it as a playtest card, however.
> 9. Parity Shift.
>
It is just stupidly too good and always has been. And is one of those cards that makes building decks that not use it, but should, pointless ("Hmm. Sabbat vote deck? Why bother...").
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> It's about being polite, having conversations that are relevant to the ideas and its not 'autocratic'...
>
In the first post of this thread, Joscha told people what they could and couldn't post.
> Kushiel wrote:
>
> > Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> > It's about being polite, having conversations that are relevant to the ideas and its not 'autocratic'...
> >
> In the first post of this thread, Joscha told people what they could and couldn't post.
>
Well, I asked them to please don't discuss the matter in this thread. I think this is more a polite request than a command .
Baron of Frankfurt
> Joscha wrote:
> Well, I asked them to please don't discuss the matter in this thread. I think this is more a polite request than a command .
>
STOP OPPRESSING MY PEOPLE
After some polls and discussions of some cards I'd like to get a feedback if you like me to go on or if you want to have a break of it.
As you can see we have some cards left on the list. Although I have to say that at least the people I've met didn't have a problem with those.
So please let me know if you are exhausted of those discussions or if we should go on.
> The list of problematic cards so far:
>
> 1. Ashur Tablets
> 2. Villein
> 3. Lilith's Blessing
> 4. Giant's Blood
> 5. Maris Streck
> 6. Heart of Nizchetus
> 7. Parity Shift
> 8. Target Vitals
> 9. No Secrets from the Magaji
> 10. Tupdog
> 11. Liquidation
>
Baron of Frankfurt
Well take your 'oppressed people', Kushiel, and take them over *waves hand randomly* there thanks. I am not Pharaoh, I'll let your people go... away. You're perfectly free to... get stuffed.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Joscha wrote:
> After some polls and discussions of some cards I'd like to get a feedback if you like me to go on or if you want to have a break of it.
>
> As you can see we have some cards left on the list. Although I have to say that at least the people I've met didn't have a problem with those.
>
> So please let me know if you are exhausted of those discussions or if we should go on.
>
> > The list of problematic cards so far:
> >
> > 1. Ashur Tablets
> > 2. Villein
> > 3. Lilith's Blessing
> > 4. Giant's Blood
> > 5. Maris Streck
> > 6. Heart of Nizchetus
> > 7. Parity Shift
> > 8. Target Vitals
> > 9. No Secrets from the Magaji
> > 10. Tupdog
> > 11. Liquidation
> >
Additional cards that could possibly be considered:
Aksinya Daclau (linchpin of Girls decks; mainly its the special which is overly strong)
Summon History (inferior ignoring all requirements; particularly problematic with Ankara Citadel, though a minor fix might be to change Ankara to "The *Tremere* with this location" rather than "The *vampire* with this location")
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
The polls you did were certainly the hottest card on most people´s "problem list". Even for those each poll showed a clear majority for leaving each card as it is (or tweak to unhose MT for Villein). When we move down the list those polls will even be more inclined to say "leave the card be". So I don´t really see the point in doing more of them.
But if it entertains you an others, please feel free to continue.
> johannes wrote:
> The polls you did were certainly the hottest card on most people´s "problem list". Even for those each poll showed a clear majority for leaving each card as it is (or tweak to unhose MT for Villein). When we move down the list those polls will even be more inclined to say "leave the card be". So I don´t really see the point in doing more of them.
>
> But if it entertains you an others, please feel free to continue.
>
It's rather not for my entertainment, but for a relief from endless discussions as I wrote already earlier:
>
> Joscha wrote:
> I'm tired of these 12 pages-threads where 3-5 people just repeat the obvious POVs and come to no decision. Maybe this time we can make clear statements and come to an end very soon with a poll.
>
Just for the people who think I'm just a freaking poser .
You are absolutely right that until now most polls say "Keep it as it is" (Villein being the only exception). Besides which is more than fine for me, as I voted exactly that way too.
Although if we stop now with the polls I'd feel a bit bad towards those people who also see problems with the other cards. After all the past polls don't predict how people would vote about those cards.
The members applauding your post surely don't want to see more polls. I'm a bit tired too.
Shouldn't we wait for 2012 to discuss the rest of the cards?
Baron of Frankfurt