Most underrated card?

There are cards many players don't give a thought. But they can be very effective. I wonder what do you think which is the most underrated card in V:TES? Library card: I think most people underestimate the power of Banishment. Its effect can be game deciding. Especially in this time with all the Villeins around a Banishment in the right time is awesome. Crypt card: No idea yet. Baron of Frankfurt

Most Underrated Card. Grooming the Protege. You can't imagine how often I get asked or mocked why I play Grooming in my Brujah Alastor deck and no Villeins. I think people don't understand the real power of Grooming and I am happy with that. So I won't explain why I think Grooming is an awesome card. As for Banishment: I don't know how your meta is like, but I see it played a lot. There is hardly a table in a tournament here without at least 1 Banishment being played. NC for Hungary hunfragment.blogspot.com

> Joscha wrote: > Library card: I think most people underestimate the power of Banishment. Its effect can be game deciding. Especially in this time with all the Villeins around a Banishment in the right time is awesome. > I can't imagine anyone underestimating the power of Banishment. It was a card that was so crazily overpowered that it got downgraded years ago. It is a card that elicits groans every time it sees play. Banishment is stupidly powerful, still.

> Mephistopheles wrote: > Most Underrated Card. Grooming the Protege. > > You can't imagine how often I get asked or mocked why I play Grooming in my Brujah Alastor deck and no Villeins. I think people don't understand the real power of Grooming and I am happy with that. So I won't explain why I think Grooming is an awesome card. > > As for Banishment: I don't know how your meta is like, but I see it played a lot. There is hardly a table in a tournament here without at least 1 Banishment being played. > As many times before, I agree 100% with Mr. Major. I've always found it odd that people choose to play combat, when one Banishment card (and plus 2 or 3 cards, with vote push + Freak Drive or stealth) do almost the same effect and leaves you slots to actually kill your prey. When Protect Thine Own was banned, I was one of the few people that used it allot that didn't cry about it. Banishment works on everybody. Note: Yeah, I play with Arika allot.

One of the most underrated card I know is Erciyes Fragments. For me, it's simply the best card of VTES (provided you don't play weenie 1 discipline of course). The better the deck of your prey is, the stronger the card. Need an option that isn't in your deck? There are chances your prey have it. I don't see it very often on the tables. For the vampires, I guess Bernard the Scourge and Nicomedes should be played more often for their extraordinary powerful specials. Name: The Erciyes Fragments Cardtype: Master Unique master. Put this card in play. Tap this card to move a library card from your prey's ash heap to this card, face down. You may look at that card at any time. You may play the card from the Fragments as if playing it from your hand (requirements and cost, if any, apply as normal). When that card is burned, remove it from the game instead. Only 1 card can be on this card at a time. Any vampire with a capacity above 4 can steal the Fragments (and any card on it) for his or her controller as a action. Name: Nicomedes Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Harbinger of Skulls Group: 4 Capacity: 5 Discipline: aus for nec vic Sabbat. Black Hand: Once each of your turns, Nicomedes may burn a blood to shuffle your hand into your library (draw afterward). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Here are a few underrated cards that I have used to great effectiveness: Gather - Most people never take the action to get rid of it, which usually means a "free" minion for you, and since it's a Gangrel card, it it usually followed by a Freak Drive, which means it was a "free" action. You can also do the Gather-House of Sorrow trick, if you're so inclined. Arson - It's free, and the all-purpose, non-limited usage is incredibly powerful, especially if a particular location is going to be a bother to your deck. Police Department - It's free, it doesn't have a removal clause, and it stops the presses that are likely to kill your minions. Charming Lobby - It's free, gives you +2 votes to do what your deck does anyway, and gives a lingering effect to allow you to force through those highly unlikeable votes. Underbridge Stray - It's a cheap ally that can block, it provides a permanent untap(!), and similarly to Police Department, it provides a press (either way), which can often save you, or help kill your enemies. Veles' Hunt - This is only really played in one deck, but in that deck, it's PTO. Note that PTO has been banned... Jackie Therman - She's free, and to decks that can't via their disciplines, she provides a much-needed maneuver. And use the VTES hot-redhead version, will you? Last Stand - While people are continually trying to get Momentum's Edge to work, and asking themselves why it doesn't work, I'm winning games with Last Stand. No other card in the game allows you to do what this does. It's ridiculously powerful and should be in every power-bleed deck. The Bitter and Sweet Story - Another powerful card that should be in every power-bleed deck. You're going to get 1vp. That's just a fact. And when you get it, you'll get a 29% increase in your hand size, which will allow you to get out of hand-jam situations MUCH easier. And it doesn't matter that it's a global effect, because no deck is rewarded for a larger hand size than a bleed deck is. Psychic Veil - I've played 1-2 of these in every obfuscate deck since the olden days and it's always been amazing. At [obf], it's for all your vampires, and given how many weenie-obf decks are out there, 1 blood for +4, +5, or +6 stealth is pretty damn good. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

Not really sure if it's underrated or not but from my experience it doesn't see as much play as it deserves: revelations (mainly the inferior effect). It is actually great when setting up for a lunge. Nicking that bounce/wake/AI from your prey's hand can often seal the deal. Lidingö Scourge

Metro Underground is my favorite underrated card. It was critical to my first and only tournament win.

> Dorrinal wrote: > Metro Underground is my favorite underrated card. It was critical to my first and only tournament win. > Metro Underground is a awesome if you have a vampire with an Enkil Cog V:EKN Website Coordinator

> Damnans wrote: > Metro Underground is a awesome if you have a vampire with an Enkil Cog > Metro Underground is awesome if you have: -Bleed bounce, -Bleed reduction, -Intercept, -Pretty much any reaction card to play at all. If it saves you more than 1 pool a turn by allowing you to bounce some bleeds, reduce some bleeds, block some actions, or delay some tactics, it is pure profit. I mean, if you can't reliably block things or bounce/reduce bleeds, best left out of a deck. But otherwise, kind of a staple, for my money.

> Ankha wrote: > Name: The Erciyes Fragments > > Name: Nicomedes > Seconded, especially the Fragments. At it's worst it's a free Wake per turn. I'll also nominate Undele. That's right, he could be rated even higher.

I kinda like Major Boon. I don't really see that card too much... And Flash grenade in ally decks. It's really awesome!

> KevinM wrote: > The Bitter and Sweet Story > Psychic Veil > > Baaliprimogen wrote: > Major Boon. > Seconded! I'd also like to mention Blood of the Sabbat. Works like Perfectionist, but the -action just needs to be succesful (ie. Reactions don't matter). It also works multiple times per turn, so for multi -acting minions, such as Una, it is pure gold. Finnish Politics!

> KevinM wrote: > Arson - It's free, and the all-purpose, non-limited usage is incredibly powerful, especially if a particular location is going to be a bother to your deck. > totally agreed. It's funny how often I see decks that rely too much on having some special location in play, like Ankara Citadel or Parthenon or Monastery of Shadows. poof! I've sometimes even used Zoning Board in decks just to get rid of locations. I don't care if they get the pool cost back; it will slow down those decks heavily. > Underbridge Stray - It's a cheap ally that can block, it provides a permanent untap(!), and similarly to Police Department, it provides a press (either way), which can often save you, or help kill your enemies. > My favorite part about this ally is that it's practically impossible to steal. I don't see these doggies enough in animalism decks. my recent underrated card I've been looking at is Behind You(!). with superior OBF, I think it's better than the majority of Celerity combat cards. not a single celerity card gives you the option of maneuver/dodge, which is so versatile for both offense and defense. one time I handed a brand-new player a malkavian deck to play his first game. it was standard stealth bleed, but just for a little fun I added some wacky combat defense. Disguised Weapon + Improvised Flamethrower, Dodge, Behind You. Even though he was sitting between TWO long-range combat decks, thanks to the use of Behind You he never once got the flamethrower exploded. I was very impressed by this overlooked obfuscate card.

> Lönkka wrote: > I'd also like to mention Blood of the Sabbat. > Works like Perfectionist, but the -action just needs to be succesful (ie. Reactions don't matter). It also works multiple times per turn, so for multi -acting minions, such as Una, it is pure gold. > I agree, I like blood of sabbat too. Crypt card: Gravitnir, I haven't seen him played alot. His special can single handedly stop many vote decks. not all but many.

> TorranceCircle wrote: > > > Lönkka wrote: > > Crypt card: Gravitnir, I haven't seen him played alot. His special can single handedly stop many vote decks. not all but many. > > > In my weenie Presence voter I also use some Celerity (Brujahs and Toreadors) which enables me to use Scalpel Tongues which function like Gravitnir. Great for swinging the vote to your favour. > > Just in yesterday's tournaments sidegame (during the finals) it worked very well. > Finnish Politics!

I vote for Pentex Subversion. It is obviously underrated if it is still not banned. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

This vampire is a single-minion Wall just about. Inferior dominate is her only drawback. Untap a minion, look at people's hands and all because other people want the edge??? She flicks, she blocks, she has for all of the dead-people shennanigans, she fits in well pretty well with Tremere and Harbringers... a little Fortitude or Thaumaturgy and she's all ready to be a powerhouse. This vampire seriously does not see enough play. Sennadurek Clan: Nagaraja (group 4) Capacity: 6 Disciplines: AUS NEC dom Sabbat. Black Hand: Whenever a Methuselah loses the Edge when it is not your turn, Sennadurek untaps, and you may look at that Methuselah's hand. Scarce. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

My number 1 is Alacrity. I get mocked for putting it in my decks. But NO ONE expects +1 stealth from the toreador! For two blood you can't play a lot but it's surprise effect is amazing. From my past, I've found "Behind You!" "Deny" to be invaluable. I've frustrated Dorrinal plenty of times by outmaneuvering and outpressing him with my Malkavians! Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

> direwolf wrote: > My number 1 is Alacrity. I get mocked for putting it in my decks. But NO ONE expects +1 stealth from the toreador! For two blood you can't play a lot but it's surprise effect is amazing. > With Resist's Earth Grasp, stealthy Toreador are not a surprise anymore. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Dark Influences is strong and I haven't seen it played much. DI2 not only cancels a minion card but also denies playing of the same card during that turn. And as a bonus it cancels next cancelling card (like DI1 or Charismatic Aura). ---- Banging trashcans, breaking windows We'll wake you up tonight We like the good time, we scream and shout And that's what fun's about

> Ankha wrote: > > > direwolf wrote: > > My number 1 is Alacrity. I get mocked for putting it in my decks. But NO ONE expects +1 stealth from the toreador! For two blood you can't play a lot but it's surprise effect is amazing. > > > With Resist's Earth Grasp, stealthy Toreador are not a surprise anymore. > Maybe in your playgroup Guess I won't be bringing my Toreador deck next time i visit france Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

> direwolf wrote: > My number 1 is Alacrity. I get mocked for putting it in my decks. But NO ONE expects +1 stealth from the toreador! For two blood you can't play a lot but it's surprise effect is amazing. > Resist Earth's Grasp costs only 1 blood, doubles as both combat offense and defense in a pinch and is becoming pretty staple in CEL/cel based deck, mostly replacing Flash in bruise-type deck and Majesty/Staredown in vote/bleed deck.

Thanks people. These responses were exactly what I was looking for. Great job . Baron of Frankfurt

> Joscha wrote: > Thanks people. These responses were exactly what I was looking for. Great job . > Now you're going to put them altogether in one deck? Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > > > direwolf wrote: > > My number 1 is Alacrity. I get mocked for putting it in my decks. But NO ONE expects +1 stealth from the toreador! For two blood you can't play a lot but it's surprise effect is amazing. > > > With Resist's Earth Grasp, stealthy Toreador are not a surprise anymore. > Even with the existence of Resist, I personally still try to add a couple of copies of Alacrity to decks with Celerity that can use a bit of stealth. It's useful as a surprise additional bit of stealth on top of Resist and it's playable at , rather than needing , which can also be helpful. It's not a card to build a deck around, but often worth splashing in. -- National Coordinator South Africa

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Untap a minion, look at people's hands and all because other people want the edge??? > Yup, she's crazy good! Either one of her special abilities would've been great but getting 2 for the price of one sure is a bargain. The hand peeking effect is brilliant especially when your Prey looses the Egde and you get to see that you can now lunge/rush & torporize without the fear of S:CE. Or whatever info you might need for your deck/game situation. Finnish Politics!

> Ankha wrote: > > > Joscha wrote: > > Thanks people. These responses were exactly what I was looking for. Great job . > > > Now you're going to put them altogether in one deck? > If I'd be cool I'd do . Baron of Frankfurt

I like Sennadurek a lot. She's pefect with Telepathic Misdirection. Regarding library cards, I'd pick Conceal, Amaranth and Command. Conceal deals with pretty much any anoying stuff (Secure Haven, Ivory Bow, Heart of Nizchetus) Amaranth is a permanent removal of a vampire, with an affordable cost (most often, losing that 3-cap with vic or pro), and, if you happen to also have the votelock, it has no drawback (except for Carlton..) Command is, for me, an equivalent to Pentex, with the slight difference that you can play it *with* Pentex. Of course, it only works on allies, but who doesn't have a Carlton / Imbued / Nephandus in play

> Baaliprimogen wrote: > And Flash grenade in ally decks. It's really awesome! > Flash Grenade isn't underrated. It's so powerful that a card was made to be specifically anti-Flash Grenade. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

Entrancement has always been in my PRE decks, mostly for Ossian. It's free! Fleetness for Unnamed bleeds and constant pressure from a multiacting Ishtarri or Joe Boot deck. My favourite underdog vote card is Finding the Path. It's not a shotgun blast like Reckless Agitation or even the usual KRC. Compared to what you could be throwing down, its not as likely to be blocked, and you're making friends cross table. The perfect companion to Charming Lobby (and that Reckless Ag in your hand) Agitate Responsibly, but Influence Unduly.

Entrancement is most certainly not underrated! Finnish Politics!

> Pascal wrote: > I like Sennadurek a lot. She's pefect with Telepathic Misdirection. > > Regarding library cards, I'd pick Conceal, Amaranth and Command. > Conceal deals with pretty much any anoying stuff (Secure Haven, Ivory Bow, Heart of Nizchetus) > Amaranth is a permanent removal of a vampire, with an affordable cost (most often, losing that 3-cap with vic or pro), and, if you happen to also have the votelock, it has no drawback (except for Carlton..) > Command is, for me, an equivalent to Pentex, with the slight difference that you can play it *with* Pentex. Of course, it only works on allies, but who doesn't have a Carlton / Imbued / Nephandus in play > A loved my 8 Amaranth in my Hardestadt eats the world deck and I played Command in my Salubri + DOM/FOR bleed deck. Command made me several vp's. I also like Conceal a lot. So I fully agree with Pascal on this. NC for Hungary hunfragment.blogspot.com

> Alex wrote: > My favourite underdog vote card is Finding the Path. It's not a shotgun blast like Reckless Agitation or even the usual KRC. Compared to what you could be throwing down, its not as likely to be blocked, and you're making friends cross table. The perfect companion to Charming Lobby (and that Reckless Ag in your hand) > Speaking of Votes: Honor the Elders. Even when it gets you a net gain of 6 most players will allow you to pass it (the people with votes usually profit) and often don't even realise what has happened. Sebastian

Perhaps not the most underrated cards, let alone powerful, but I'm partial to Status Perfectus, Meat Hook, Bloodstone, and Ghoul Messenger. They're pretty well overlooked in my experience, however. Status Perfectus helps with blood management, and has on more than one occasion prevented a mandatory empty hunt with a minion who wouldn't be able to get it through. At the end game those desperate lunges and forced hunts can mean VPs or being exposed for the oust. Meat Hook is a permanent superior Mighty Grapple with a semi-trap option for vampires w/ potence to waste a strike -- and it works with melee strike cards, too. Cheap grinder hitback. Also Concealable. Nice for non-add-strike decks. Bloodstone is a finesse card which I've received the most colorful post-game comments. I've had players talk about how upset they were with that little equipment getting in the way. Hey, if it buys me time, how bad can it be? Also useful in "assisting" that S&B grand-predator flush out their stealth on your predator; keeps you alive, they run low eventually... Even weenie support moving the Bloodstone equipment away stresses minion management issues later. An unfairly maligned card, I think. Ghoul Messenger is the Leather Jacket hunt action for Laibon. Even in destruction by being blocked it helps because combat is canceled. A nice way to recoup blood for a turn and stay on the defensive without stressing your wakes.

> direwolf wrote: > From my past, I've found "Behind You!" "Deny" to be invaluable. I've frustrated Dorrinal plenty of times by outmaneuvering and outpressing him with my Malkavians! > Behind You! got quite a bit of love in the early days of V:TES. Obf/Pot and Cel/Pot fought quite hard for the rush deck combat crown, and Obf/Pot had some advantages over Cel/Pot, particularly in terms of weenie-fying slightly better, as I remember. BY! was a key component of being able to set range. Along similar lines, Matt Green (GreenO) is easily provoked into enthusing about Deer Rifle for defensive purposes.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > direwolf wrote: > > From my past, > > Along similar lines, Matt Green (GreenO) is easily provoked into enthusing about Deer Rifle for defensive purposes. > > > The 2 maneuvers is great. > > I have a No Secrets from the Magaji deck featuring Tsunda that prefers Deer Rifle. Multiple copies of Mass Reality amend the low inbuilt firepower of Deer Rifle quite nicely so the double maneuver is the main thing... > Finnish Politics!

I think that Force of Personality and Flames of the Netherworld (especially when used with thaumaturgy) are underrated cards.

another underrated favorite of mine is the necromancy card Jar the Soul. it doesn't seem like much, but I've found that a few copies can make a huge difference. You can tap out the defense so Shambling Hordes can successfully rush the targets you want, or bleed without getting blocked/bounced. The superior effect of "burn a blood" is also a nice bonus. They think they'll survive the Shamblers with 4 blood, but suddenly they're down to 3!

Night moves. In my mono OBF deck, with night moves + spying mission + marked path...gotta love it. I am death. Paul Kersey, Death Wish

Neighborhood Watch Commander Vamps are always going to unsuccessful in their actions, right? Ping! Moonlights as a chump blocker. Vampiric Disease I love the way this hoses multiple untap star vamps, majesty, freak drives...ha! Watenda Amazing how many good combat cards cost little to no blood. Forces your opponent to add one more into the combo. Aaron Archbishop Adelaide

Metro Underground.

Catacombs and Humanitas I have never once been able to play with these cards, even if it was included as a random junk card for fun. every time I try to get one of these in play, it gets suddened or blocked. apparently they know something I don't...

> Haze wrote: > Catacombs and Humanitas > > I have never once been able to play with these cards, even if it was included as a random junk card for fun. every time I try to get one of these in play, it gets suddened or blocked. apparently they know something I don't... > They can be quite strong in a Fame rush deck, to yo-yo the Famed vampire in and out of torpor. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

Not really...the whole "fame dunk" stuff is a myth that's totally not worth the effort. Torp -> rescue -> Torp is 3 actions to do 6 pool damage. Those actions cost blood and likely cards, unless you happen to have two guys with permarush. And then there's hitback too. It's infinately more efficient to just Torp -> Bleed -> Bleed for a total of 5 pool damage with zero cards spent, zero blood spent and no chance of failure cos the guy topdecked a Staredown.

Tension in the Ranks and Pulled Fangs change the math a little bit.

Sure, let's add more cards to the combo. Two Conditionings or Legal Manipulations change the math too. In favor of bleeding.

> Izaak wrote: > Sure, let's add more cards to the combo. Two Conditionings or Legal Manipulations change the math too. In favor of bleeding. > You're right, Conditioning has never really had its due.... I use Humanitas in my ANI rush deck for the rescue-dunk trick. It also seconds as a good way to rescue your own vampires (+1 stealth, -1 cost with no pool or blood cost to play). Recently my prey was sitting on a ton of bounce; I ousted him without bleeding once. In that game I didn't get to rescue/dunk with Humanitas because someone burned by third vampire, but I think it helped me get my own guy out of torpor. Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

In my monopotence deck, I use humanitas and catacombs...and 14 horseshoes. be careful of famous people being hit in the mid of show by a horseshoes! lol! also, they are great because small vampires can't pay well rescue cost. I am death. Paul Kersey, Death Wish

Crypt: To me the obvious choice here is Sascha Vykos adv. Only Giotto Verducci comes close to the same amount of card draw, and Sascha is clearly better having a 2 vote title and no infernal. You draw a card each time another methuselah plays a master. That's maybe 40 cards throughout a round. Library: I like Metro Underground but you've got to compare it with all the other Master cards out there vying for 15-20 Master slots in a normal library. The cost of playing Metro Underground is that you aren't playing a different master. I think Finding the Path is underrated. It's a lot easier to pass than KRC and it still does a significant swing of 5 pool. For Masters, I find Golconda to be underplayed. Other surprises that are underplayed are Procurer, and the Dodges to go with them.

> Library: I like Metro Underground but you've got to compare it with all the other Master cards out there vying for 15-20 Master slots in a normal library. The cost of playing Metro Underground is that you aren't playing a different master. > The irony here is that you posting that bit is *exactly* why Metro Underground is so underrated.

Aranthebes, The Immortal Action +1 stealth action. Unique. Put this card into play. You may tap Aranthebes to give a minion controlled by your predator -1 stealth for the current action. While Aranthebes is untapped, vampires with a capacity less than 5 get -1 bleed when bleeding you. Any vampire with a capacity above 4 can move Aranthebes to your library as a action. Shuffle afterward. Permanent "intercept" on your predator, the bleed reduction for weenies is just a bonus.

> Shard wrote: > Aranthebes, The Immortal > Underrated? I see this card all the time.

> Izaak wrote: > The irony here is that you posting that bit is *exactly* why Metro Underground is so underrated. > Ironic indeed. I was surprised to see Metro Underground present in so many TWDs in 2011. Perhaps it's not underrated at all. I would define underrated as any library card, which is neither clan-specific nor uses a discipline held by two or fewer traditional Camarilla/Sabbat clans, which has been used in two or fewer TWDs since the start of 2011. Not gonna search for such a card, but that would be a fairly objective standard. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Jeff wrote: > I would define underrated as any library card, which is neither clan-specific nor uses a discipline held by two or fewer traditional Camarilla/Sabbat clans, which has been used in two or fewer TWDs since the start of 2011. > > Not gonna search for such a card, but that would be a fairly objective standard. > A definition of underrated that doesn't include that the card is useful in any way seems like a bad definition. Tortured Confession and The Deadliest Sin both fits your description, and I'm not really sure that they're underrated cards rather than just crap.

True, but no one will suggest those cards as underrated. The point is to eliminate cards which have been proven tournament worthy and find the gems which are under utilized. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Jeff wrote: > True, but no one will suggest those cards as underrated. The point is to eliminate cards which have been proven tournament worthy and find the gems which are under utilized. > If that is the point, your definition needs work since it only points out underused cards.

> henrik wrote: > If that is the point, your definition needs work since it only points out underused cards. > Why would a card be underused? Because people don't rate it highly enough to include in their deck design. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Jeff wrote: > > > henrik wrote: > > If that is the point, your definition needs work since it only points out underused cards. > > > Why would a card be underused? Because people don't rate it highly enough to include in their deck design. > Just because people don't rate a card high enough to include in their decks doesn't mean they underrate the card, it might actually be that bad. Underrated isn't the same as underused or low rated, which your definition seems to say (since it includes cards like Tortured Confession).

Why don't you come up with a different definition which sets a floor for quality of cards which you'd consider underrated, if you're up to the task? What? You can't do it? Of course not. It's completely subjective. We have a list of tournament winning decks. Cards in those decks are "good" by some measure. Cards which are not are "bad" by some measure. Start with those cards and eliminate the really good ones, those which have been part of multiple tournament wins. Process of elimination really. It's the best method to figure this sort of thing out. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

I don't think it's possible, and I don't see any real reason for a definition of the sort you tried to create. I'm not sure that should mean I can't point out flaws in your suggestion for a definition.

It seems to me a card which is underrated is both more useful and less used than it should be. Lots of folks have listed great ideas in this thread from their own anecdotal experience. But to find the true cards which are just on the bubble of making the cut for deck-building, you can follow some algorithm similar to what I described. That's the point. And yeah, "Everyone's a critic." When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

A good contender for underrated card may be the Mantle of Bestial Majesty : www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?lib=1734 In most circumstance, it is at the same power level as Claw of the dead, but it is very rarely used where Claw of the dead is common place. They are rational explanation, but the main reason is not one of power level : you can easily have Claw of the dead where Mantle of Bestial Majesty is a lot harder to find without being overly superior.

> Jeff wrote: > I would define underrated as any library card, which is neither clan-specific nor uses a discipline held by two or fewer traditional Camarilla/Sabbat clans, which has been used in two or fewer TWDs since the start of 2011. > Since 2 seems a somewhat arbitrary number, and, since the card list has been essentially stable since close to the start of 2010, I've put up the cards sorted by appearances in the TWDA since 2010 here . I haven't split the card list further than crypt or library, but I've also included total appearances in the TWDA as a useful additional bit of data. I'm not sure there's that much to learn from the crypt stats, although there's obviously been a drop in the popularity of the !Malk group 2 crypt of late (only 3 of Dolphin Black's 51 entries are from 2010 and 2011 for example), and there are a few vampires I'm surprised to see not featuring in the TWDA at all (Lord Fianna for example). The library stats are more interesting, and cards that meet the above criteria that I'm surprised to see so little use of include: Catatonic Fear Revelations Psychic Veil Skin of Night The Summoning Empowering the Puppet King Jack of Both Sides Vast Wealth Weather Control Inconnu Tutelage -- National Coordinator South Africa

> drnlmza wrote: > Since 2 seems a somewhat arbitrary number, and, since the card list has been essentially stable since close to the start of 2010, I've put up the cards sorted by appearances in the TWDA since 2010 here . I haven't split the card list further than crypt or library, but I've also included total appearances in the TWDA as a useful additional bit of data. > If I knew what a .tsv file was, maybe I could comment on these files. How about a .csv file, or something more commonly used? Or is a .tsv file some sort of .csv file? Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> drnlmza wrote: > Since 2 seems a somewhat arbitrary number, and, since the card list has been essentially stable since close to the start of 2010, I've put up the cards sorted by appearances in the TWDA since 2010 here . I haven't split the card list further than crypt or library, but I've also included total appearances in the TWDA as a useful additional bit of data. > This is awesome! Thanks so much! I am going to dive right into the data and start analyzing. Great Christmas present. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> KevinM wrote: > > > drnlmza wrote: > > Since 2 seems a somewhat arbitrary number, and, since the card list has been essentially stable since close to the start of 2010, I've put up the cards sorted by appearances in the TWDA since 2010 here . I haven't split the card list further than crypt or library, but I've also included total appearances in the TWDA as a useful additional bit of data. > > > If I knew what a .tsv file was, maybe I could comment on these files. > > How about a .csv file, or something more commonly used? > > Or is a .tsv file some sort of .csv file? > If you open it up in Notepad (or whatever), it's easy enough to copy and paste all the data and then paste it into an Excel file. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

.tsv is tab separated values. Try to open it in Excel and it should try to import the file properly. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

For anyone having problems with the tsv files, I've now added csv versions as well. I also realized my initial post is a little unclear - the numbers given are purely the number of decks the cards appear in, with no information on how many copies were used. While I could add some card usage numbers, I'm not sure how to present the information in a way that will be useful, due to the wide variation involved. -- National Coordinator South Africa

> Jeff wrote: > .tsv is tab separated values. Try to open it in Excel and it should try to import the file properly. > .TSV files appear to open in Excel just fine. Thanks Jeff (and drnlmza) for the help. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> Pascal wrote: > I like Sennadurek a lot. She's pefect with Telepathic Misdirection. > I absoluty love her and play her a lot, especially in combination with BigBleeddecks, like i play one with Saulot. One vamp i love and never see played is that 4cap !sal with peaking ability. I just love playing revelations with her (in the same kind of decks as Senna). And i dont know how many people play Nicomedes, but i love him so much i am thinking of adding a couple of him to most decks i play with those groups crypts. (not all attempts have been useful) W

> Cooper wrote: > And i dont know how many people play Nicomedes, but i love him so much i am thinking of adding a couple of him to most decks i play with those groups crypts. (not all attempts have been useful) > W > Nicomedes is awesome! I use both Nicomedes AND Sennadurek in my Guillaume Giovanni location deck -having a big handsize* is great but being able to exchange it is super! *at this year's FCQ I had handsize of 20 in the 3rd game. Finnish Politics!

> Joscha wrote: > I wonder what do you think which is the most underrated card in V:TES? > There is nothing like Draft/Limited play to show the value of cards previously undervalued.

> Cooper wrote: > > > Pascal wrote: > > I like Sennadurek a lot. She's pefect with Telepathic Misdirection. > > > One vamp i love and never see played is that 4cap !sal with peaking ability. I just love playing revelations with her (in the same kind of decks as Senna). > W > Nkechi was her name, W

> Adonai wrote: > > > Joscha wrote: > > I wonder what do you think which is the most underrated card in V:TES? > > > There is nothing like Draft/Limited play to show the value of cards previously undervalued. > That's so right. You almoste everytime discover marvelous new cards (you already knew of course, but forgot). I recently discovered My Kin Against the World and try a deck with it now. Baron of Frankfurt

> Victim of Habit > Type: Action > Cost: 1 blood > +1 stealth action. > Put this card in play and choose a card in your prey's ash heap by name. During any Methuselah's untap phase, you may tap this card to remove three copies of the chosen card in your prey's ash heap from the game to cause your prey to burn 1 pool. > Its strength increases against decks that cycle cards fast (which is often a good measure of a good deck). It is good against ash heap digging decks. Playable by any vampire. So your little cap 2 can do it. Its real strength is punishing deck types that is designed around a single card and those can be troublesome to beat. It is not unique so you can even have multiple copies out. In any game you can expect to deal atleast 1-2 pool damage to prey. It may not be much but depending on prey (or if you choose a common card, perhaps even next prey) this can be alot more.

Ignis Fatuus Type: Reaction Requires: Chimerstry Cost: 1 blood [chi] The acting minion gets -1 stealth for the remainder of the turn. [CHI] Reduce a bleed against any Methuselah by 1. Such a good card, table control and screws mutli-action decks. Never seen anyone else play it, but I love to throw 2-3 in a deck just to screw with peoples math.

Y'know, I never noticed that about Ignis Fatuus. I always assumed it was until the end of the action. Huh, that raised its estimation in my eyes quite a bit. Thanks.

I'd like to vote for Gird Minions. Doesn't work in all decks, but in the right deck, it can be killer.