Card idea: The Sweeper (Vampire)

Name: The Sweeper Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Nosferatu antitribu Group: 5 Capacity: 4 Discipline: OBF ani Sabbat: The Sweeper may remove 3 cards in any Methuselah's ash heap from the game to gain 1 blood as a +1 stealth action. If the Sweeper is ready, a Methuselah whose ash heap is empty burns 1 pool during his or her untap phase. -1 intercept. Another small vampire supporting a "ousting" strategy (see The Plague ). His two specials work together, but he may need some protection. It tried to balance them with a big drawback (-1 intercept). As a reminder, actions against methuselahs are not directed, meaning that both prey and predator may block it (thus the +1 stealth to counterbalance it). The Sweeper was originally a Nosferatu, but since the lack of sabbat vampires in group 5-6, I changed it to Nosferatu antitribu Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Nice idea, but I would say it's overpowered. For 4 cap OBF ani without specials is fine and proposed special is very good. "Big drawback" (-1 intercept) you've mentioned is not drawback almost at all for a minion that will never try to block, so it's not enough to balance his specials. Additionally, - 1 intercept drawback should have some background explanation (like for Daughters). I think as a 5 cap with no drawback it would be better balanced.

> alek wrote: > Nice idea, but I would say it's overpowered. For 4 cap OBF ani without specials is fine and proposed special is very good. "Big drawback" (-1 intercept) you've mentioned is not drawback almost at all for a minion that will never try to block, so it's not enough to balance his specials. Additionally, - 1 intercept drawback should have some background explanation (like for Daughters). I think as a 5 cap with no drawback it would be better balanced. > Looks like you never played with Daughters Believe me, when you're bled for 6 and the only minion left that can block has -1 intercept, you cry. Basically, it means you have 1 less blocker. Like saying -1 bleed isn't a big drawback since you won't bleed ever with him... As for the background, a vampire spending his time in dark places digging up dark little secrets will probably be unaware of what happens outside. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

It should be up to 3. It should be hunt action. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

Recursion is a strong mechanic. This special totally shuts down the recursion of any methuselah. To almost completely shut down a strong mechanic with a cap 4 is too good of a special. If you dislike recursion mechanics and would like a card to counter it you can't make it too strong unless you want to remove recursion completely. Removing any mechanic completely impairs creativity, which I think we agree on is a bad thing. Make this vampire a cap 10 or something and add some fun disciplines (including fortitude) and you could make an archetype which is strong against recursion but is limited to that vampire's disciplines (and possibly some other drawback). And as someone already pointed out, decrease intercept is only a drawback if you intend to block. Likely, you'll be wanting to do actions with a vampire with superior OBF so he'll be tapped and if you want to block with wakes you'll do it with another vampire. Adam Esbjörnsson, Prince of Örebro

I like the idea. It should be 3 cards at random so it doesn't completely shut down card recursion. > As a reminder, actions against methuselahs are not directed, meaning that both prey and predator may block it (thus the +1 stealth to counterbalance it). > I'm pretty sure actions against Meths, such as bleeds are directed actions. Anything targeting something I own, including my ash heap, is directed at me. His special would be directed. It should be a +1 stealth hunt action.

> Ankha wrote: > Name: The Sweeper > Cardtype: Vampire > Clan: Nosferatu antitribu > Group: 5 > Capacity: 4 > Discipline: OBF ani > Sabbat: The Sweeper may remove 3 cards in any Methuselah's ash heap from the game to gain 1 blood as a +1 stealth action. If the Sweeper is ready, a Methuselah whose ash heap is empty burns 1 pool during his or her untap phase. -1 intercept. > Rewrite and small edit. The Sweeper Group 5 Cap 4 Sabbat. The Sweeper may remove 3 cards at random in any Methuselah's ash heap as a hunt action, if he targets your own ashheap it is at +1 stealth. In every Methuselahs untap if their ashheap is empty and the Sweeper is ready they burn 1 pool. The Sweeper cannot block undirected actions. -1 intercept. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Izaak wrote: > > > As a reminder, actions against methuselahs are not directed, meaning that both prey and predator may block it (thus the +1 stealth to counterbalance it). > > > I'm pretty sure actions against Meths, such as bleeds are directed actions. Anything targeting something I own, including my ash heap, is directed at me. His special would be directed. > It should be a +1 stealth hunt action. > Correct. EDIT: I was wrong, since targeting any Ash Heap does count as a Action. Sorry. > Rules: wrote: > 1. Who May Attempt to Block: If the action targets one or more other Methuselahs (or things controlled by other Methuselahs), then the action is called directed (...) > EDIT: Jeff's post proves that this is incomplete and not relevant. About the vampire: thematically he could have instead of I agree with Adam that he should be bigger, even if he removes cards at random.

The 2 specials do not have to belong to the same card. I am not a big fan of the winning condition being on a vampire: it opens much less options than if it was on a library card.

The ash heap is uncontrolled. Actions that target an ash heap are always undirected. www.vekn.net/index.php/all-rulings/general-rulings > General wrote: > Directed Actions: > > Actions which target another player's hand, uncontrolled region, crypt, or library (or cards therein) are directed at that player. (Actions which target another player's ash heap are undirected by default). [LSJ 20010924] [LSJ 20010926] >

That seems VERY counterintuitive. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Adonai wrote: > The ash heap is uncontrolled. > Actions that target an ash heap are always undirected. > > www.vekn.net/index.php/all-rulings/general-rulings > > > General wrote: > > Directed Actions: > > > > Actions which target another player's hand, uncontrolled region, crypt, or library (or cards therein) are directed at that player. (Actions which target another player's ash heap are undirected by default). [LSJ 20010924] [LSJ 20010926] > > Correct. There were some words missing in my sentence: > Ankha wrote: > As a reminder, actions against methuselahs' ash heaps are not directed, meaning that both prey and predator may block it (thus the +1 stealth to counterbalance it). > Other actions against Methuselahs are of course directed. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Lech wrote: > It should be up to 3. It should be hunt action. > Why do you think it "should"? I thought about it but an exact 3 is more like Trochomancy. On the other hand, it can be very hard to empty any Methuselah's ash heap because you can't do anything if there's 1 or 2 cards left. So maybe up to 3 would be interesting indeed. Making it a hunt action is too strong IMHO, first of all because you can do it while empty. Plus there are a lot of cards interacting with hunts. Or it would require a clause like Kyoko's ("Kyoko cannot hunt as normal.") > Xaddam wrote: > Recursion is a strong mechanic. This special totally shuts down the recursion of any methuselah. To almost completely shut down a strong mechanic with a cap 4 is too good of a special. > > If you dislike recursion mechanics and would like a card to counter it you can't make it too strong unless you want to remove recursion completely. Removing any mechanic completely impairs creativity, which I think we agree on is a bad thing. > Some could argue that recursion are bad mechanics Anyway, would you include a 4 cap vampire in your crypt that doesn't match your disciplines just to disable other's Methuselahs recursion? I think not, you wouldn't be sure to draw it in your crypt, it costs influence and blood instead of bringing a "real" vampire, and you wouldn't be sure to make his special work. Unless you play !Nosferatu, in which case his special is just fine. Think about Keller Thiel Keller Thiel Clan: Malkavian (group 5) Capacity: 4 Disciplines: aus dem Camarilla: While Keller is ready and untapped, any minion who successfully bleeds you burns 1 blood or life. Great vampire, if I could i would play it in all my decks. But I can't afford it. > Xaddam wrote: > Make this vampire a cap 10 or something and add some fun disciplines (including fortitude) and you could make an archetype which is strong against recursion but is limited to that vampire's disciplines (and possibly some other drawback). > What archetype? The kind where you have only 1 vampire to support your ousting strategy, and no card that works with it? Why would anyone play a 10 cap that no other vampire or card can support? > Xaddam wrote: > And as someone already pointed out, decrease intercept is only a drawback if you intend to block. Likely, you'll be wanting to do actions with a vampire with superior OBF so he'll be tapped and if you want to block with wakes you'll do it with another vampire. > Basically, -1 intercept was to counterbalance its superior discipline. I think it's a big drawback as I explained earlier. > Izaak wrote: > I like the idea. It should be 3 cards at random so it doesn't completely shut down card recursion. > Maybe. The key would then be to get him out first. > Non-existant user wrote: > The 2 specials do not have to belong to the same card. I am not a big fan of the winning condition being on a vampire: it opens much less options than if it was on a library card. > I'm against because: - either the library card allows to remove cards in the ash heap. It would be very kilely that many more players would play it because it "kills" recursion. - or the library card creates a condition when a Methuselah's ash heap is empty. This is very unlikely to happen because Trochomancy and the Sweeper are the only cards I can think of that empty the ash heap. The card wouldn't be played, or at least not much more than if The Sweeper is played. Putting the two conditions on the same vampire will draw a big target on him. A little vampire that needs protection from other big vampires -- I like it. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Perhaps only targeting your preys ashhead, then you cant actively try to screw the recursion decks all around the table until you are preying on them. The guy also really wrecks Imbueds... Prince of Lidingö

> Ankha wrote: > Anyway, would you include a 4 cap vampire in your crypt that doesn't match your disciplines just to disable other's Methuselahs recursion? I think not, you wouldn't be sure to draw it in your crypt, it costs influence and blood instead of bringing a "real" vampire, and you wouldn't be sure to make his special work. > Unless you play !Nosferatu, in which case his special is just fine. > Think about Keller Thiel > > Keller Thiel > Clan: Malkavian (group 5) > Capacity: 4 > Disciplines: aus dem > Camarilla: While Keller is ready and untapped, any minion who successfully bleeds you burns 1 blood or life. > > Great vampire, if I could i would play it in all my decks. But I can't afford it. > Not comparable. His special is not even nearly as strong and he has worse disciplines (both aus and dem are really bad at inferior). This The Sweeper would have lots of uses, first that comes to mind is as a voter. Think of him in conjunction with Lutz. Also, lots of star vampire decks include small minions with obf. > Ankha wrote: > What archetype? The kind where you have only 1 vampire to support your ousting strategy, and no card that works with it? Why would anyone play a 10 cap that no other vampire or card can support? > Oh, sorry, I never stated a big assumption in my reasoning. The pool damage is not a "new ousting strategy". A deck with recursion will discard more than 3 cards each turn (liquidation) and against a deck without recursion the action to remove 3 cards is not worth it even if it actually managed to remove all cards from the ash heap. Obviously this 10-cap vampire would need some through-put discipline, like presence, dominate or dementation, and that would be its primary ousting strategy. Adam Esbjörnsson, Prince of Örebro

> Xaddam wrote: > This The Sweeper would have lots of uses, first that comes to mind is as a voter. Think of him in conjunction with Lutz. > Please explain, because I don't see why him over any other vampire would be chosen to play a voter role? There are already a lot of cheap guys with OBF, and having a 5-cap with Presence seems way better than a vampire whose special has nothing to do with voting. > > > > Also, lots of star vampire decks include small minions with obf. > > > Indeed, but they're used: > - to remove a Pentex on the star vampire > - to block rushes > The Sweeper won't block any rush directed at your star vampire due to its -1 intercept. Furthermore, he may himself become the more pressing target of a rush. > > > Xaddam wrote: > > Oh, sorry, I never stated a big assumption in my reasoning. The pool damage is not a "new ousting strategy". A deck with recursion will discard more than 3 cards each turn (liquidation) > > > You won't oust that kind of deck, but removing cards from the recursion is still a good thing. > > > Xaddam wrote: > > and against a deck without recursion the action to remove 3 cards is not worth it even if it actually managed to remove all cards from the ash heap > > > Yes it is, because you gain 1 blood anyway. Army of Rats, Contagion, etc. are not ousting strategies neither, but they help a lot in fact, despite the fact it's only a 1 pool loss. > > > Xaddam wrote: > > Obviously this 10-cap vampire would need some through-put discipline, like presence, dominate or dementation, and that would be its primary ousting strategy. > > > What the hell are you talking about? I'm not designing a 10-cap with dominate and obfuscate, what is the link with my initial proposition? > Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I'm done with my points. If you feel like finding some strong arguments among what I said I implore you to read them again, because right now you're attacking a straw man and you're being hostile. I said what I feel about the card in question and the mechanics of its special. Adam Esbjörnsson, Prince of Örebro

> Xaddam wrote: > I'm done with my points. If you feel like finding some strong arguments among what I said I implore you to read them again, because right now you're attacking a straw man and you're being hostile. I said what I feel about the card in question and the mechanics of its special. > Funny how people imagine hostily behind a lack of smileys Or is it using "hell" in the sentence, which is quite natural for a Baali follow? Oh, I forgot the soothing smiley Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director