Compromise on Villein

Instead of introducing proxies, how about we just make Minion Tap playable? Villein Type: Master Master: trifle. Put this card on a vampire you control and move 2 or more blood from that vampire to your pool. Minion Tap and Villein costs an additional pool to play on this vampire.

Which requires significant errata, changing the core text of either Villein or Minion Tap... and in my opinion that means it should be banned (if it does require that much of a rewrite) because new players have no way to know what the actual cardtext is unless either they are told by someone or they go digging through a database to find it. Same situation as the other debate about "errata vs banning" on Pentex Subversion. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

I don't think there is a problem about Villein. Yes, your deck with Minion Tap suffers a bit if another methuselah plays Villeins in his deck. So what? If you can't afford Villeins then learn to live with that minimal pool loss. Or play masses of Blood Dolls instead. Or play Suddens on the Villeins. Or hit the villeined (?) minion to torpor and burn him. Or play even more poolgain. Or Banishments. What annoys me to a medium degree is the way some players go if they are convinced some cards are too strong. Instead of taking the opportunities the game gives them they yell for cardchange. If you feel a card threatens your deck come up with a solution or take the threat. I admit, I don't like the Minion Tap-hosing ability of Villein too. But it is far from making MT unplayable. BTW Minion Tap is better in decks with more master phase actions plus Anthelios, because you can cycle them back. Villein sticks on the minion. Especially with the Ashur Tablet recursion teck this could be a big advantage. Just because the majority of players doesn't go a way doesn't mean the way isn't good. Be creative before you yell for a change. And one last point: We allow players in our playing group to proxy Villein with MT, if they want to. For tournaments those players have to borrow Villeins of course. But that's often no problem. Baron of Frankfurt

I'm sorry, but I think it is (especially in tournament enviroment) a reconized fact that Minion Taps are brutally crippled by Villeins. The card was, by how it seems, introduced to kill an age old card still largely played by all - a last one-trick-pony to quickly sell out the last expansions before giving the game a finishing blow. Minion Taps are 'nigh unplayable because of Villein. The major anger caused by the card is not that it's unbalanced, but because it deliberately killed off a card. This grings up humongous issues, among one increased difficulty to get new players going with older starters. A friend of mine started playing a year ago or so, collecting an Arika Lawfirm crypt and some needed cards from eBay, but just with minion taps it's impossible for her to first of all reasonably play with the local playgroup (older players, lots of villein), no to even mention tournament play. All the tricks that worked on Minion Tap will work on Villein. This is all right. But it did shift the collectivity balance of the game, and introduced some ridiculous issues. Vessel, destroying Blood Dolls, was accepted with horror, but in some decks Blood Dolls are still valuable. If there is no ruling over Villein, so that a playgroup either doesn't have them or decides not to use them, Minion Tap almost cannot be played. And I'm usually the one ranting on with how any card can find a time and place to be played, at least to a reasonable effect! About the errata and proxy discussion: I strongly advice against them. But, if Villein would be errated, I would go with the simplest option possible: Change "Minion Tap cards cost an additional pool", to "Minion Tap cards cost [one] pool." If you find a loophole in there, instead change into: "[If there is one or more Villein in play] Minion Tap cards cost an additional pool." About tournament play and Villeins: If a new playgroup would pick up the game and wanted to try out tournaments, there most likely will be no players with ~10 villeins to spare. This once again comes down to the problem with starting up the game from scratch - and directly impacts the survivability of the game. The problems with Villein have nothing to do with game mechanics or tournament balance, but with more mundane issues: recruiting new gamers, accessibility of the game, and death of previous cards - last of which is not a part of VtES ethos, as far as I understand it. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

> Kraus wrote: > I'm sorry, but I think it is (especially in tournament enviroment) a reconized fact that Minion Taps are brutally crippled by Villeins. The card was, by how it seems, introduced to kill an age old card still largely played by all - a last one-trick-pony to quickly sell out the last expansions before giving the game a finishing blow. > > Minion Taps are 'nigh unplayable because of Villein. > Simple math does not support this "fact". If 30% of the people at a tournament are playing with Villeins, based on 2010s TWDA, then: At a 5 player table 1 or 2 of your opponents will be playing Villeins. If only 1-2 people are playing Villeins, if your deck is equal to the 1-2 decks with Villeins, your first Minion Tap should only cost you either 0, 1 or 2 pool - depending on table seating. Still assuming your deck is equal to the other 2 decks playing with Villeins, your next Minion Tap should cost you either 2, 3 or 4 pool. After the second set of Villeins or Minion Taps, imo, the math gets a little more difficult. Are the other 2 possible decks playing with 3+ fat vampires for targets of their Villeins? If not, then the cost of your Minion Taps is stable at 2 or 4 pool. 4 pool would hurt yes, but depending on your Minion Tap target, is still probably pool generating. Meanwhile, Villeins will start to cost the other Meth pool reap large rewards. If yes, then your Minion Taps then might become too cost inefficient and have to be discarded. Would somebody with higher math skills care to analyze the situation?

A while back, buried somewhere in thepathofblood.com forums, David Cherryholmes explained how he realized he was dedicating too many cards to pool and blood recursion, so just stopped. He played (and won with) decks that had no Blood Dolls, no Minion Taps, no Hunting Grounds, etc. He used the extra card slots to defend the pool he already had. Pool recursion is a CHOICE that players make. Villeins and Minion Taps are not required in your deck. If you don't have any Villeins but feel you can't play Minion Tap...play intercept. You won't need Pool recursion. No errata. No bans. Play.The.Game. I suggest a new strategy...let the Wookie win.

> Gargoylee wrote: > If only 1-2 people are playing Villeins, if your deck is equal to the 1-2 decks with Villeins, your first Minion Tap should only cost you either 0, 1 or 2 pool - depending on table seating. > > Still assuming your deck is equal to the other 2 decks playing with Villeins, your next Minion Tap should cost you either 2, 3 or 4 pool. > I unfortunately don't understand you here. What do you mean by my deck being 'equal' to the villein playing decks? On equal power level, or drawing minion taps and villeins with equal frequency? Also, I don't really understand how the seating affects the cost of minion taps. Do you mean who goes first and gets out vampires first? I think that is a bit far fetched, because it is so random. Also, if you expect to have a minion tap in starting hand, you would need to have 6-8 of those in your deck to ensure that. Starting to discard those in the midst of other cards you would like to discard does get a bit tedious, I think... Anyways, it might be a good idea to discuss this in a topic of it's own. There seems to be some people who do still think Minion Tap is viable even in enviorments that play Villein. I'd encourage you to have a go and try it out. If you think playing minion taps over villeins really benefits you (even if you don't play Anson + Parthenon + 10 Sudden Reversals and cancel every single Villein, including those played cross table), then I am proven wrong. Still, I think Villein destroyed Minion Tap, and as it seems it was intentional from the start. I have a pretty simple proposal for errata if people think errata is necessary or worth the effort. See it from the previous post. Other than that, I don't know what to do with the issue, if anything needs to be done. There are looming problems with the card, and it's inaccessibility, but more opinions are needed. At least I think that. Aside from that, props to Wookie. Next time I get to build new decks it could be a nice idea to build all of my decks without any villeins at all. Just to get a new perspective. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

> I have a pretty simple proposal for errata if people think errata is necessary or worth the effort. > Errata is never appropriate or necessary. Remember: Errata is banning a printed card and allowing a proxy of the same name that doesn't have the correct text on it. This is never good for players of the game. The 400+ people that have bothered to join this site are the outliers, the fanatics. The vast majority of players enjoy the game as printed.

> Kraus wrote: > If you think playing minion taps over villeins really benefits you (even if you don't play Anson + Parthenon + 10 Sudden Reversals and cancel every single Villein, including those played cross table), then I am proven wrong. > I think nobody would state that Minion Tap is BETTER than Villein, that's true. But those "you don't have any chance with Minion Tap in your deck"-statements are false IMHO. Baron of Frankfurt

> Joscha wrote: > > > Kraus wrote: > > If you think playing minion taps over villeins really benefits you (even if you don't play Anson + Parthenon + 10 Sudden Reversals and cancel every single Villein, including those played cross table), then I am proven wrong. > > > I think nobody would state that Minion Tap is BETTER than Villein, that's true. But those "you don't have any chance with Minion Tap in your deck"-statements are false IMHO. > Having seen a Nos royalty deck getting hosed by 3 other players playing Villeins and the Nos player playing Minion Taps, I'd dispute your last sentence. If your plan depends in getting enough pool back for your large investments, and it turns out you get a lot less back, your defence falls apart eventually. pckvtes.wordpress.com

> Wookie813 wrote: > No errata. > No bans. > Play.The.Game. > That's what weekly games are for. Outside weekly games? Discuss.The.Game.

> Joscha wrote: > What annoys me to a medium degree is the way some players go if they are convinced some cards are too strong. Instead of taking the opportunities the game gives them they yell for cardchange. If you feel a card threatens your deck come up with a solution or take the threat. I admit, I don't like the Minion Tap-hosing ability of Villein too. But it is far from making MT unplayable. > I don't feel Villein "threatens my deck", I own 16 of them. I don't think Villein is too strong, it gave a much needed boost to big caps. What I do feel is that it's increasingly low availability is an unreasonable obstacle for new players. If you think my reasoning is incorrect argue against it (preferably in the other thread) but don't attack my assumed motivations. Even if I did feel my decks were threatened by Villein it wouldn't disprove my reasoning.

Discussing the game is fine. I take that back, it's Awesome. I'm glad it's happening. I'm offering my opinion on proposed changes to tournament rules. That's what I thought we were discussing. Weekly games? You can use cards you made out of construction paper and drew on with a crayon. Go to town. On the matter of officially banning or adding errata to cards in the VEKN tournament rules, I'm against it. It's way too soon IMO. Let the ink dry on the new cards, let people innovate around the discrepancies in the card pool, and THEN maybe a few years from now decide to improve the game if enough people believe that is the right thing to do. People claiming every deck starts with the same 8-10 cards are playing inside a very small box. I suggest you ban the cards you are talking about from YOUR decks, and figure out how to play around them. You might discover a foil, who knows. I suggest a new strategy...let the Wookie win.

> Wookie813 wrote: > On the matter of officially banning or adding errata to cards in the VEKN tournament rules, I'm against it. It's way too soon IMO. Let the ink dry on the new cards, let people innovate around the discrepancies in the card pool, and THEN maybe a few years from now decide to improve the game if enough people believe that is the right thing to do. > I think that's a reasonable position. > People claiming every deck starts with the same 8-10 cards are playing inside a very small box. I suggest you ban the cards you are talking about from YOUR decks, and figure out how to play around them. You might discover a foil, who knows. > You should note that I don't find Villein too powerful or use it in every single deck I ever build. I do think that anybody starting to play the game tomorrow will always be unreasonably restricted in his choice of tournament decks until someone sells their Villeins. That seems like a bad thing for the survival, not to even mention the growth, of the player base.

Errata-ing the card wouldn't be so bad for newer players cause they probably wont ever get their hands on em anyway, herp. Also, if its done right they wont particularly need to. IMO, in an objective sense of the game, villein is hardly imbalanced. I just feel that it restricts\punishes a style of play for those who dont have it. The same thing could be said for cards like parity shift, carlton, pentex, or any other hard to find and powerful card. The main difference being that if you simply remove it, the abundant minion taps become playable again and the strategy remains viable.

Compromise lets the Terrorists win. Terrorists Mortal with 1 life. 2 strength, 1 bleed. Terrorists may take a +1 stealth action to go through your library, find a Bomb, and equip them with it. Pay the cost to equip as normal. Reshuffle your library afterwards. In times of war, the laws are silent. Artist(s): Tom Wänerstrand

> Adonai wrote: > Compromise lets the Terrorists win. > > Terrorists > > Mortal with 1 life. 2 strength, 1 bleed. > Terrorists may take a +1 stealth action to go through your library, find a Bomb, and equip them with it. Pay the cost to equip as normal. Reshuffle your library afterwards. > In times of war, the laws are silent. > Artist(s): Tom Wänerstrand > BAN TERRORIST!

I just brosed TWDA in serch for minion tap: 1. December 20, 2010 14 players This guy also plays Malkavian Prank 2. September 5, 2010 13 players. Son of Robert Goudie "Created to be used by my sons as their first deck when learning to play" 3. September 4, 2010 13 players 4. August 20, 2010 12 players 5. July 24, 2010 15 players That's all for 2010-2011. Apd: It's unreasonable to assume that you will win with Minion tap in any serious competition. Part 2: Is the card which, being a trifle, allows to gain up to 11 pool too good? NC Russia

Elotar, You have kind of proved the opposite by listing at least 5 examples where decks including Minion Taps have one. Including one which would clearly appear to be a 'less likely' Tier 1 deck because it includes Malk Pranks. From that I'd be more likely to suggest that Villein isn't necessary but more of a global (but possibly just US & Euro) metagame trend. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> elotar wrote: > I just brosed TWDA in serch for minion tap: > > 1. December 20, 2010 14 players This guy also plays Malkavian Prank > 2. September 5, 2010 13 players. Son of Robert Goudie "Created to be used by my sons as their first deck when learning to play" > 3. September 4, 2010 13 players > 4. August 20, 2010 12 players > 5. July 24, 2010 15 players > > That's all for 2010-2011. > > Apd: It's unreasonable to assume that you will win with Minion tap in any serious competition. > > Part 2: > Is the card which, being a trifle, allows to gain up to 11 pool too good? > The interesting thing I notice from looking at those decks is that one of them, Michael Courtois' Arika and Friends Tap & Bleed probably works better with Minion Tap than it would with Villeins.

> Gargoylee wrote: > The interesting thing I notice from looking at those decks is that one of them, Michael Courtois' Arika and Friends Tap & Bleed probably works better with Minion Tap than it would with Villeins. > Quite right. If you look up "Ector Has No Vision," which Darby based on Mike's deck here, you'll find a deck built specifically to dispute the claim that Ector made on the newsgroup that Villein is always better than Minion Tap.

> elotar wrote: > I just brosed TWDA in serch for minion tap: > > 1. December 20, 2010 14 players This guy also plays Malkavian Prank > 2. September 5, 2010 13 players. Son of Robert Goudie "Created to be used by my sons as their first deck when learning to play" > 3. September 4, 2010 13 players > 4. August 20, 2010 12 players > 5. July 24, 2010 15 players > > That's all for 2010-2011. > > Apd: It's unreasonable to assume that you will win with Minion tap in any serious competition. > > Part 2: > Is the card which, being a trifle, allows to gain up to 11 pool too good? > From what I undestand, Villein exists to keep Minion Tap in check. For years, MT allowed huge pool gains through reliable minion-filling like Voter Captivation, Giant's Blood, et al. and was seen to contribute to games being too long. In a perfect game, and with the benefit of hindsight, no card should probably ever have been printed that allowed for more than three pool gain. Still, Villein adds diminishing returns to MT while offering a better-costed alternative to it. I agree with juggernaut that meta trends are still likely adjusting to the new kid on the block. But seriously, you don't need Villein or Minion Tap. Using your master phase for Pool recursion is a choice, not an obligation. I suggest a new strategy...let the Wookie win.

> elotar wrote: > > Apd: It's unreasonable to assume that you will win with Minion tap in any serious competition. > I think it is unreasonable to make this claim. I suggest a new strategy...let the Wookie win.

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Elotar, > You have kind of proved the opposite by listing at least 5 examples where decks including Minion Taps have one. Including one which would clearly appear to be a 'less likely' Tier 1 deck because it includes Malk Pranks. > There is 226 (not shure, I was counting pagedowns) decks in TWDA by the period. So it's 1/45 chanse. Smaller, then beting on zero in casino. Still possible thou. NC Russia

> Kushiel wrote: > > > Gargoylee wrote: > > The interesting thing I notice from looking at those decks is that one of them, Michael Courtois' Arika and Friends Tap & Bleed probably works better with Minion Tap than it would with Villeins. > > > Quite right. If you look up "Ector Has No Vision," which Darby based on Mike's deck here, you'll find a deck built specifically to dispute the claim that Ector made on the newsgroup that Villein is always better than Minion Tap. > I'm not shure, but it's 2 WD in the last two(3?) years. Even girls, whith anthelious and ahur recursion, is better with villein. NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > I'm not shure, but it's 2 WD in the last two(3?) years. Even girls, whith anthelious and ahur recursion, is better with villein. > Girls needs Villein because its library is mostly master cards, and it needs its trifleness. I've actually lost track of your point here - it used to be that it's impossible to win a tournament playing a deck which uses Minion Tap, but you've wisely changed your position on that. Are you saying now that Villein is better than Minion Tap? For most decks, yes. But that doesn't mean that Villein needs to be banned or errata'd or allowed as a proxy; all those issues are orthogonal to that point.

What will the game lose by banning villein: err...Nothing? What will the game gain by banning villein: 1. GWFIP and other "master bloat" decks become a little less powerful. 2. No $75 "entry barrier" for a new players to play big wamps. 3. No "one random player starts with 40 pool" situations 4. No long discussions about villein NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > What will the game lose by banning villeyn: > err...Nothing? > No. Every card that's banned results in the game losing something. The question is whether or not that loss is outweighed by improvements to the game that result from the ban. > elotar wrote: > What will the game gain by banning villeyn: > 1. GWFIP and other "master bloat" decks become a little less powerful. > It's not the job of the VEKN to dictate the metagame. Unless a deck is so hideously overpowered that it warps the entire play environment, which Girls doesn't appear to be, the VEKN has no right to tamper with the power level of any deck. > elotar wrote: > 2. No $75 "entry barrier" for a new players to play big wamps. > No such barrier currently exists. If new players are playing casually with other new players, nobody will have Villein, so it's a non-issue. If new players are playing competitively, with older players, they can borrow Villeins from those players or simply play decks that don't require Villein. > elotar wrote: > 3. No "one random player starts with 40 pool" situations > Banning Villein doesn't make Minion Tap/Giant's Blood somehow not work. I do agree that it would make those situations less frequent. > elotar wrote: > 4. No long discussions about villein > People would find something else to have long discussions about, no fear. So the only thing that would be gained by banning Villein would be making "10 free pool" scenarios less frequent. Given that you can already prevent those situations quite easily, it's not worth the effort to ban Villein for that reason alone.

> Kushiel wrote: > No. Every card that's banned results in the game losing something. > So what we will lose? > It's not the job of the VEKN to dictate the metagame. Unless a deck is so hideously overpowered that it warps the entire play environment, which Girls doesn't appear to be, the VEKN has no right to tamper with the power level of any deck. > As it was said, the main goal of V was to contain MT, which was considered "too good". But, unfortunatly, V is just better MT. Girls is a degenerated archetype even apperance of which (not speaking about regular wins) is the alarm that master department is seriously broken. > No such barrier currently exists. If new players are playing casually with other new players, nobody will have Villein, so it's a non-issue. If new players are playing competitively, with older players, they can borrow Villeins from those players or simply play decks that don't require Villein. > It may be true 4 your playgroop, but here there are just not enougth villeins. > elotar wrote: > Banning Villein doesn't make Minion Tap/Giant's Blood somehow not work. > MT - 5 turns - GB is absolutly different situation. > People would find something else to have long discussions about, no fear. > But I will never join them. I'm feeling exhausted alredy. NC Russia

I think people fail to realize that the argument "it is much harder to use MT effectively now" is different than "you *can't* win with minion tap." Many decks feature library cards, strategies, or vampires that are harder to win with either to see if it works or to taunt other players. MT has moved closer to that sort of card. On that note, someone needs to play a tortured confession + precision deck. Enkidu, are you man enough? Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

> elotar wrote: > What will the game lose by banning villein: > err...Nothing? > Big caps became much more playable after Villein. I see that as a positive.

> Wookie813 wrote: > But seriously, you don't need Villein or Minion Tap. Using your master phase for Pool recursion is a choice, not an obligation. > It's a choice between playing big caps and not playing big caps. I, for one, would like the former be a viable option for new players.

> Suoli wrote: > > > elotar wrote: > > What will the game lose by banning villein: > > err...Nothing? > > > Big caps became much more playable after Villein. I see that as a positive. > Did you look at the numbers of TWD pre and post November 2008 and figure out whether or not the average capacity of crypt size has increased? If so, I would be interested in reading the numbers that you came up with. Or do you have some other source of data on crypt capacities pre Villein and post Villein?

> Gargoylee wrote: > > > Suoli wrote: > > Big caps became much more playable after Villein. I see that as a positive. > > > Did you look at the numbers of TWD pre and post November 2008 and figure out whether or not the average capacity of crypt size has increased? If so, I would be interested in reading the numbers that you came up with. > > Or do you have some other source of data on crypt capacities pre Villein and post Villein? > I know that my playgroup is seeing more big caps and I'm building more and better decks with big caps. If you want mathematical certainty I'll let you do the research.

> Suoli wrote: > > > Gargoylee wrote: > > > > > Suoli wrote: > > > Big caps became much more playable after Villein. I see that as a positive. > > > > > Did you look at the numbers of TWD pre and post November 2008 and figure out whether or not the average capacity of crypt size has increased? If so, I would be interested in reading the numbers that you came up with. > > > > Or do you have some other source of data on crypt capacities pre Villein and post Villein? > > > I know that my playgroup is seeing more big caps and I'm building more and better decks with big caps. If you want mathematical certainty I'll let you do the research. > You are the one who is trying to make an assertion, I'm just asking you for what you are basing your assertion on. Pre Villein there was this card called Minion Tap, you might have heard of it, yes? It does the same thing that Minion Tap does. Now given that Villein and Minion Tap do the same thing, why do you think that big caps became "much more playable after Villein"? Did your play group not play with Minion Tap prior to Villein being printed?

> Gargoylee wrote: > You are the one who is trying to make an assertion, I'm just asking you for what you are basing your assertion on. > > Pre Villein there was this card called Minion Tap, you might have heard of it, yes? It does the same thing that Minion Tap does. Now given that Villein and Minion Tap do the same thing, why do you think that big caps became "much more playable after Villein"? > > Did your play group not play with Minion Tap prior to Villein being printed? > I think you're getting agitated again. I don't agree that Minion Tap does exactly the same thing as Villein. The trifleness matters.

> Suoli wrote: > > > Wookie813 wrote: > > But seriously, you don't need Villein or Minion Tap. Using your master phase for Pool recursion is a choice, not an obligation. > > > It's a choice between playing big caps and not playing big caps. I, for one, would like the former be a viable option for new players. > ?????????! Did I miss a rules revision? The capacity of vampires in your crypt does not require any particular card be used in your library. You are adhering to a premise that one MUST recur pool via the master phase action if playing large capacity vampires. While this strategy is sensible and has been proven effective, it is not singular. Also, can we quit pretending to be concerned for the well-being of this hypothetical 'new player'. That guy will have months and months to play and learn the fundamentals of the game before the most effective means of pool recursion become an issue, and by then will either be hooked or have given it up already. I suggest a new strategy...let the Wookie win.

> Wookie813 wrote: > ?????????! > Did I miss a rules revision? The capacity of vampires in your crypt does not require any particular card be used in your library. > > You are adhering to a premise that one MUST recur pool via the master phase action if playing large capacity vampires. While this strategy is sensible and has been proven effective, it is not singular. > I'm sure that some kind of a large cap deck without master phase pool recursion could be played but I do think that it would usually be clearly inferior and there wouldn't be any reason to do so, other than lack of cards. It would be for all purposes too bad to be playable. If there are exceptions to that then I don't believe that those exceptions are numerous enough to be an argument against the necessity of Villeins. If there's one or two specialized decks, like Una, that can do without pool recursion then that does not really have a huge effect when compared to the larger pool of decks that can't. > Also, can we quit pretending to be concerned for the well-being of this hypothetical 'new player'. That guy will have months and months to play and learn the fundamentals of the game before the most effective means of pool recursion become an issue, and by then will either be hooked or have given it up already. > People do quit games after being initially hooked and I do believe lacking Villeins could be a reason for someone to quit. I used to play a lot of casual MTG. The cost of making new decks or moving in to the tournament scene was too high so I stopped.

> elotar wrote: > > > Kushiel wrote: > > If new players are playing competitively, with older players, they can borrow Villeins from those players or simply play decks that don't require Villein. > > > It may be true 4 your playgroop, but here there are just not enougth villeins. > I suggested to you in Newsgroup where you guys could still get Heirs Starters, but since you keep insisting that Villeins aren't available I've come to conclusion that you guys just don't want to spend any money on cards. Hence all the relentless talk about proxying, banning etc Finnish Politics!

> Suoli wrote: > People do quit games after being initially hooked and I do believe lacking Villeins could be a reason for someone to quit. > Has anyone actually so far encountered a situation where a player, new or old, has actually quit the game bacause of the availability of Villein (or any other card for that matter)? Like Wookie813 I don't buy this "For heavens sake, think of the neonates!" -attitude. Finnish Politics!

Not only that, but how can the card be simultaneously so powerful and widespread to affect everyone that might play big caps and minion taps, and yet so incredibly rare as to be unobtainable?

> BeAst wrote: > Not only that, but how can the card be simultaneously so powerful and widespread to affect everyone that might play big caps and minion taps, and yet so incredibly rare as to be unobtainable? > Unfortunately BeAst, Suoli doesn't accept that Minion Tap has the same effect of Villeins on the ability to play big cap vampires. Presumably even in the absence of Villeins making it slightly less pool efficient. > > Suoli wrote: > Big caps became much more playable after Villein. I see that as a positive. > > Suoli wrote: > I don't agree that Minion Tap does exactly the same thing as Villein. The trifleness matters. >

> elotar wrote: > So what we will lose? > The ability to put Villein in decks, and all the knock-on effects which that loss entails. > elotar wrote: > As it was said, the main goal of V was to contain MT, which was considered "too good". > That's Bakija's opinion. LSJ hasn't ever weighed in on that matter officially, or at least he didn't during playtest - he never revealed designer intent during playtesting, which was sometimes frustrating, though I understand why he handled things that way for a variable-component game. I think that Villein was actually meant to be analogous to Vessel - an alternative to a staple meant to shake up the prevalance of that staple, not a replacement for it - but it failed to get that fourth round of playtesting that would've landed it in the same sweet spot as Vessel. > elotar wrote: > But, unfortunatly, V is just better MT. Girls is a degenerated archetype even apperance of which (not speaking about regular wins) is the alarm that master department is seriously broken. > Every time a new deck archetype appears on the tournament scene and does well, some folks will lament its brokenness. Until it's actually shown to be broken, which Girls hasn't been, that lamentation isn't reason enough to make changes to the game itself. > elotar wrote: > It may be true 4 your playgroop, but here there are just not enougth villeins. > I was actually thinking of public events liks Weeks of Nightmares and Origins when I wrote that. It's quite common to see people lending each other cards during those events. But I'm a bit confused now - if there aren't many/any Villeins in your playgroup, how are you disadvantated by playing Minion Tap there? > elotar wrote: > MT - 5 turns - GB is absolutly different situation. > That's not what I was referring to. It's been possible to play Minion Tap and Giant's Blood in the same master phase since the beginning of the game. Villein makes that easier to pull off, but it's certainly not a new effect by any measure.

> Lönkka wrote: > > > elotar wrote: > > > > > Kushiel wrote: > > > If new players are playing competitively, with older players, they can borrow Villeins from those players or simply play decks that don't require Villein. > > > > > It may be true 4 your playgroop, but here there are just not enougth villeins. > > > I suggested to you in Newsgroup where you guys could still get Heirs Starters, but since you keep insisting that Villeins aren't available I've come to conclusion that you guys just don't want to spend any money on cards. Hence all the relentless talk about proxying, banning etc > I got mine there, thanks. But Villein got much more problems, than low availability. It just must be killed before it kill all of us. NC Russia

> Lönkka wrote: > > > Suoli wrote: > > People do quit games after being initially hooked and I do believe lacking Villeins could be a reason for someone to quit. > > > Has anyone actually so far encountered a situation where a player, new or old, has actually quit the game bacause of the availability of Villein (or any other card for that matter)? > > Like Wookie813 I don't buy this "For heavens sake, think of the neonates!" -attitude. > Half of our playgroop actually, when the last seller of cards ran out of stock. People just are not used to buying from forein shops. Or they are remembering the Winter war NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > But Villein got much more problems, than low availability. > Continuing to make a blind assertion without backing it up with reasoning isn't gaining you any traction.

> Gargoylee wrote: > > > BeAst wrote: > > Not only that, but how can the card be simultaneously so powerful and widespread to affect everyone that might play big caps and minion taps, and yet so incredibly rare as to be unobtainable? > > > Unfortunately BeAst, Suoli doesn't accept that Minion Tap has the same effect of Villeins on the ability to play big cap vampires. Presumably even in the absence of Villeins making it slightly less pool efficient. > > > > Suoli wrote: > > Big caps became much more playable after Villein. I see that as a positive. > > > > Suoli wrote: > > I don't agree that Minion Tap does exactly the same thing as Villein. The trifleness matters. > > I thing the logic is smth like this: in big cap "before" you have to play 5+ MT, or even more BD/vessels/groomings. Now you r playing 5 villein, so it opens up 5+ master slots. Even with accendance your deck becomes better. Also with villein in KoT were introdused great number of good big caps. NC Russia

> BeAst wrote: > Not only that, but how can the card be simultaneously so powerful and widespread to affect everyone that might play big caps and minion taps, and yet so incredibly rare as to be unobtainable? > Yep, exactly. Sorry for posting that short note. But: exactly. Baron of Frankfurt

Dammit, a reply got eaten. From memory - Using villein does not give you extra card slots. 90 cards is 90 cards. You get to play a villein as a trifle. Alternately you could always play Parthenon and Minion Taps for similar effect, with the added bonus that Parthenon doesn't care if you draw the trifle after playing your master. Your argument seems to be either: "Villein is much better than Minion Tap." To which the answer is "ok, play villein if you think so" or "Villein has made big cap decks more viable." To which the answer is "good" or "Villein is difficult to get hold of" if that's the case for you, and there is zero chance of you borrowing/buying/trading for more, then "use analogous cards (like MT), in the same way that people have always done when they haven't got the exact card they want."* *when I say you, I don't mean you specifically, just whichever hypothetical "new player" you're posting to help None of these 3 reasons is anywhere near justification for issuing a ban.

Do anybody here knows who the Beast is IRL? I got a feeling that his understanding of the game is ... not ideal. NC Russia

Yes. john has years of experience playing and supporting the game in the UK. Your decision to begin making personal attacks is unwelcome.

> elotar wrote: > Do anybody here knows who the Beast is IRL? I got a feeling that his understanding of the game is ... not ideal. > Please, don't get this to personal level. Jussi Hattara Webmaster Extraordinaire Finnish Politics!

> elotar wrote: > Do anybody here knows who the Beast is IRL? I got a feeling that his understanding of the game is ... not ideal. > He seems to have a very fine understanding as far as I am concerned. -- salem

> elotar wrote: > Do anybody here knows who the Beast is IRL? I got a feeling that his understanding of the game is ... not ideal. > I know him from IRC and played against him at the last EC. He's a fine guy and good v:tes-player. Before posting things like this, you should read them out loud to yourself. If you only hear laughing inside your head, then don't click the submit-button. www.facebook.com/groups/vtes.belgium/

> elotar wrote: > Half of our playgroop actually, when the last seller of cards ran out of stock. People just are not used to buying from forein shops. Or they are remembering the Winter war > Well, my grandfather died during Winter War... (& I wouldn't be surprised if some people at your playgroup also lost a relative during that conflict too) But anyway, there's not that many in stock anymore so they won't last forever. So if they want some, they better not tarry overtly much. Finnish Politics!

> Adonai wrote: > Your decision to begin making personal attacks is unwelcome. > Indeed so. Especially considering the fact that you are a National Coordinator. Whose role should be building bridges, not tearing them down! With great power comes great responsibility..., eh? Finnish Politics!

Hi, If a new set was to be made, how about a card that affects villein? I am no card designer, but something that would hurt villein in some way but would not be so powerful as to cause another cycle of "[New Card] is too good!" debates.

Personal attacks aside, the facts are these (again): No errata'd card can be issued (due to the production cease) Minion Tap is still playable (especially in groups with limited numbers of villein) Villein is still available (although in dwindling numbers for new ones) Which of the 3 necessitates a compromise?

> BeAst wrote: > Personal attacks aside, the facts are these (again): > > No errata'd card can be issued (due to the production cease) > Minion Tap is still playable (especially in groups with limited numbers of villein) > Villein is still available (although in dwindling numbers for new ones) > > Which of the 3 necessitates a compromise? > Somebody made a thread about errata'd cards. It's not an unreasonable solution. I disagree on point 2. I'm leaning toward agreeing on point 3 for now.

I agree its not an unreasonable solution to errata text, (insert usual caveats about perfect knowledge) where it's clearly necessary. A quick search on the TWDA reveals the last use of Minion Tap was Mike Zajac's win at An Anarch Manifesto, San Jose, California on December 20, 2010. a tournament with 14 players. Prior to that Cameron Goudie's Gateway 2010 Event 4, Los Angeles, California, September 5, 2010 (13 players). More extreme - Michael Courtois' win at Gateway 2010 - Event 2, with a deck with 15 minion taps. In fact, I count 100 odd TWDs featuring Villein since the start of 2009 (Villein first appearing at the end of 2008, IIRC) BUT 40 odd TWDs with minion taps over the same period. This suggests that not only is Minion Tap still playable in a tournament environment, but it's still in regular use. Even though Villein is now 2.5 times as prevalent as Minion Tap, I cannot agree that it needs banning, errataing, proxying, or that it has crippled decks using Minion Tap.

> BeAst wrote: > I agree its not an unreasonable solution to errata text, (insert usual caveats about perfect knowledge) where it's clearly necessary. > > A quick search on the TWDA reveals the last use of Minion Tap was Mike Zajac's win at An Anarch Manifesto, San Jose, California on December 20, 2010. a tournament with 14 players. Prior to that Cameron Goudie's Gateway 2010 Event 4, Los Angeles, California, September 5, 2010 (13 players). More extreme - Michael Courtois' win at Gateway 2010 - Event 2, with a deck with 15 minion taps. > In fact, I count 100 odd TWDs featuring Villein since the start of 2009 (Villein first appearing at the end of 2008, IIRC) BUT 40 odd TWDs with minion taps over the same period. This suggests that not only is Minion Tap still playable in a tournament environment, but it's still in regular use. > > Even though Villein is now 2.5 times as prevalent as Minion Tap, I cannot agree that it needs banning, errataing, proxying, or that it has crippled decks using Minion Tap. > I'm not going to restart the Villein vs. Minion Tap debate in this thread but I will mention that those Minion Taps mostly seem to appear in small tournaments. That could well be a sign of an insular playgroup where many players just don't have enough Villeins.

Well, to be fair, your first post on this thread is: "how about we make Minion Tap more playable?". My contention is it's not any less playable. Of the 40 I mentioned, you've got a Two National Championships, an ECQ, a NACQ, a continental Qualifier etc. I agree that villein is better than minion tap (usually). I don't think that requires any remedial action. Both are still usable in nationally competitive environments, and small local tournaments. To use an (admittedly very wooly) analogy you could argue that the group 4 Kiasyd are better than the group 2. They're easier to get hold of (date of print etc.) and seem to have largely supplanted them on the tournament scene. Group 4 Kiasyd have access to the same masters as group 2, and can contest them. Since they're "better" this would favour group 4 over group 2. Would you argue that the group 2 Kiasyd need to be made more "playable"?

Villein and Minion Tap serve the same purpose of tranferring pool invested in a vamp back to pool. Compared to Villein, Minion Tap has become just absolete. The frequent use of Villein comes with a cost and a restriction - yes - but being trifle and making Minion Taps costly is mostly worth it. During the end game they are not so easy to cycle though.

> BeAst wrote: > Well, to be fair, your first post on this thread is: "how about we make Minion Tap more playable?". My contention is it's not any less playable. > I could understand if you said that Minion Tap is playable. I can not understand how it is either as playable as Villein or as playable as it used to be before Villein.

Then either we have a different idea of the concept of playable, or we have a difference of opinion. We do not have a reason to change Villein.

> Lönkka wrote: > > > elotar wrote: > > Half of our playgroop actually, when the last seller of cards ran out of stock. People just are not used to buying from forein shops. Or they are remembering the Winter war > > > Well, my grandfather died during Winter War... > (& I wouldn't be surprised if some people at your playgroup also lost a relative during that conflict too) > Sorry for you grand. In Russia in every family there are somebody who died at WW2 or just at the stalin's times, we r not bothering to ask. > But anyway, there's not that many in stock anymore so they won't last forever. So if they want some, they better not tarry overtly much. > Here is the main reason for all this thread. NC Russia

> BeAst wrote: > I agree its not an unreasonable solution to errata text, (insert usual caveats about perfect knowledge) where it's clearly necessary. > > A quick search on the TWDA reveals the last use of Minion Tap was Mike Zajac's win at An Anarch Manifesto, San Jose, California on December 20, 2010. a tournament with 14 players. Prior to that Cameron Goudie's Gateway 2010 Event 4, Los Angeles, California, September 5, 2010 (13 players). More extreme - Michael Courtois' win at Gateway 2010 - Event 2, with a deck with 15 minion taps. > In fact, I count 100 odd TWDs featuring Villein since the start of 2009 (Villein first appearing at the end of 2008, IIRC) BUT 40 odd TWDs with minion taps over the same period. This suggests that not only is Minion Tap still playable in a tournament environment, but it's still in regular use. > > Even though Villein is now 2.5 times as prevalent as Minion Tap, I cannot agree that it needs banning, errataing, proxying, or that it has crippled decks using Minion Tap. > Beast, sorry, if I was a little offending. But it's your reasoning, which make me think so. It may be 40 MT in decks since the begginning from 2009, but only 5 since the beginning of 2010. Which, I think, shows the way of MT when villein enters tournament scene. MT is generraly unplayable exept in very special decks. I don't think, that it's a problem, but it's a fact. NC Russia

> Kushiel wrote: > The ability to put Villein in decks, and all the knock-on effects which that loss entails. > By now I see only one knock-on effect - Girls... > I think that Villein was actually meant to be analogous to Vessel - an alternative to a staple meant to shake up the prevalance of that staple, not a replacement for it - but it failed to get that fourth round of playtesting that would've landed it in the same sweet spot as Vessel. > I'm meaning it too. My english may be a little sucky thou. > Every time a new deck archetype appears on the tournament scene and does well, some folks will lament its brokenness. Until it's actually shown to be broken, which Girls hasn't been, that lamentation isn't reason enough to make changes to the game itself. > It's very hard to define "broken" in vtes, so I'm not saying smth about it. But it's degenerated, cause it's just gaining crasy amount of pool by trifle. > I was actually thinking of public events liks Weeks of Nightmares and Origins when I wrote that. It's quite common to see people lending each other cards during those events. > So you sugest official advice for new players "bag for villeins at tournaments". > But I'm a bit confused now - if there aren't many/any Villeins in your playgroup, how are you disadvantated by playing Minion Tap there? > Because evil Elotar got all villeins, so he is now effectivly choosing the tournament vinners To be honest, last one was won by guy with MT, but he really suffered all day. > elotar wrote: > That's not what I was referring to. It's been possible to play Minion Tap and Giant's Blood in the same master phase since the beginning of the game. Villein makes that easier to pull off, but it's certainly not a new effect by any measure. > Just a little easier. NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > By now I see only one knock-on effect - Girls... > Then look more closely. Not all of those Villein-using decks that are in the TWDA, which are the cause of the complaint that Tap is wallpapered in the first place, are Girls variants. > elotar wrote: > I'm meaning it too. My english may be a little sucky thou. > Not a problem. Your English is infinitely better than my Russian. > elotar wrote: > It's very hard to define "broken" in vtes, so I'm not saying smth about it. But it's degenerated, cause it's just gaining crasy amount of pool by trifle. > I've only ever seen the word "degenerate" used as a synonym for broken, so I'm not sure what you mean here. > elotar wrote: > So you sugest official advice for new players "bag for villeins at tournaments". > My advice for new players is to stick to small- and midcap decks until they get the fundamentals of the game down, actually. But if a new player insisted on wanting to play a large-cap deck but didn't have the Villeins to do so, I'd absolutely advise him to ask around for loaner copies, and do the same for him myself if I didn't have any spare to give him, yes. > elotar wrote: > Because evil Elotar got all villeins, so he is now effectivly choosing the tournament vinners To be honest, last one was won by guy with MT, but he really suffered all day. > If the members of your playgroup are winning tournaments with Minion Tap, I have a really hard time seeing how the lack of Villeins is a problem. > elotar wrote: > > Just a little easier. > It's not that much easier - I can think of exactly one instance of a Villain/Giant's Blood combo happening when it wasn't being played by a deck that was planning on generating multiple MPAs anyway (and therefore could've done the trick just as easily with Tap as with Villein, since most decks don't run more Villeins than they used to run Taps). YMMV, of course.

> BeAst wrote: > I agree its not an unreasonable solution to errata text, (insert usual caveats about perfect knowledge) where it's clearly necessary. > > A quick search on the TWDA reveals the last use of Minion Tap was Mike Zajac's win at An Anarch Manifesto, San Jose, California on December 20, 2010. a tournament with 14 players. Prior to that Cameron Goudie's Gateway 2010 Event 4, Los Angeles, California, September 5, 2010 (13 players). More extreme - Michael Courtois' win at Gateway 2010 - Event 2, with a deck with 15 minion taps. > > Even though Villein is now 2.5 times as prevalent as Minion Tap, I cannot agree that it needs banning, errataing, proxying, or that it has crippled decks using Minion Tap. > Being from Southern California, I have to say that you should be careful to use these TWDs as examples that Minion Tap is still viable in competitive decks. Compared with other parts of the world, Villein is not commonly played here. At the final that Cameron Goudie won, there was only one player at the table who had ever made it to a final before, Matt Wedge. The other three players were what I would consider to be "newbies", with no offense intended. I saw two of those decks, and they were not using cards from the latest sets. My impression is that there were no Villeins present in any deck at that table. That seems unheard for European finals. At the FCQ at the EC 2010, I would probably have qualified if I had been playing with Villeins instead of Minion Taps. In my first game, I had to pay two pool to Minion Tap Arika, and I was ousted with less than twenty seconds left with a bleed for exactly enough to kill me. If I had not been ousted from my first game, I would have made the cut-off to qualify. It's hard for me to agree with people who say that Minion Taps can still be played in competitive decks. Perhaps they can be played in a few selected deck types, but they have been completely supplanted for general use by Villein - at least, outside of Southern California .

I was just thinking (hoping that this hasn't already being said): what if minion tap becomes trifle? IMHO villein will be better in any case, but at least with the "trifleness" MT has again a little sense.

At that final in San Jose, I don't think that any of the decks ran Villein, or at least not very many. I didn't, Ira didn't, Robert Scythe didn't(at least I'm pretty sure), and I don't think that A.J. did(he was playing old school Tzim). That is the right environment for minion tap. In a game with two+ players playing Villein, forget it. I give up on arguing any further on the internets on this point. Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

I think we need some necro! It's quite old variant, it was mentioned once in the discussion, but than forgotten. After giving it some thought, I think it's the best solution. Villein Master. Trifle. Put this card on a vampire you control and move 2 blood from that vampire to your pool. Minion Tap cards cost an additional pool. It's shorter, it is usable in it's oun right - 2 pool as trifle are fine, it punishes cap&tap, and all other blood management cards becomes usefull again. NC Russia

> I think we need some necro! > Not really. > Villein > Master. Trifle. > Put this card on a vampire you control and move 2 blood from that vampire to your pool. > Minion Tap cards cost an additional pool. > I was initially playtested like that. According to the playtesters who have posted on this topic it was not worth playing with that wording.

> I was just thinking (hoping that this hasn't already being said): what if minion tap becomes trifle? > IMHO villein will be better in any case, but at least with the "trifleness" MT has again a little sense. > That wallpapers Villein. Zero reason to play it instead of MT in that case.

Up to 4 blood would be "better" (depending on what you're trying to fix). Or make it raise the cost of each other Villein you play (not only on this vampire) by 1 to limit the number of high cap minions you get out "for cheap". Or make it only playable on vampires of capacity 8 or less. Or make it only playable if you don't control any Villeins (allowing some Villein/Golconda trick, buut stopping the players from getting 3 10-caps out for 6 pool). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Elotar wrote: > Villein > Master. Trifle. > Put this card on a vampire you control and move 2 blood from that vampire to your pool. > Minion Tap cards cost an additional pool. > Completely wallpapers large vampires. With this text, I play 4 caps or smaller, have a trifle that puts Vessel and Blood Doll to shame, AND I get to hose those players using larger vampires + Minion Tap, what's not to like?

> Izaak wrote: > I was initially playtested like that. According to the playtesters who have posted on this topic it was not worth playing with that wording. > I haven't searched for those playtesters that you mention, but in my original playtest materials, Villein started as it's currently printed **but it wasn't a trifle**. The trifle part came later. G-d only knows why. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017 Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> Izaak wrote: > it was not worth playing with that wording. > > Adonai wrote: > With this text, I play 4 caps or smaller, have a trifle that puts Vessel and Blood Doll to shame, AND I get to hose those players using larger vampires + Minion Tap, what's not to like? > NC Russia

we talked about villein in our group, and we came to the conclusion that gaining pool as a trifle is what makes it so overpowered. you can immediately use the pool to pay for another master card. there is no other trifle master in the game that directly and immediately gives you pool. Failsafe and Wider View come close but the former takes up that extra MPA and the latter has to wait until the end of your turn. so juuuust in case someone here has a time machine, or inherits a billion dollars to buy VTES licensing rights, my idea of rebalancing it (and leaving it as a trifle, minion taps costing 1 extra) would be to put it on the vampire, but you don't move the blood to your pool until your influence phase. this prevents immediately using giants blood or lillith's blessing, or using a voter cap (which i think the card was originally meant to discourage but failed to do so). it's all still possible, but it'll have to wait until the next turn, leaving the vampire a little vulnerable. you could even play it on a near-empty vampire, in hopes that you'll be able to refill him or her during your turn and score big, but there's the risk of failing the action since everyone can see it coming. delay that vote! fair enough trade for being a super-awesome trifle? also, maybe only make the minion taps played by your prey cost extra, instead of the whole table? I dislike how indiscriminate the hosing effect is, compared to Vessel's.

I think the first change is that it must target a vampire with at least 2 blood. Secondly, I honestly did not see the need for this card to be created. All of the other "gain significant pool" cards have many conditions, Voter Cap realistically does not. The Obeah-Refill card is an action requiring a Bloodlines Discipline on Scarce Vampires, Edge of the World is a clan card that requires someone to be ousted during the current action, Giant's Blood is once per game... Voter Cap relies on a common discipline, feeds off the main ousting mechanic of a deck utilising it (Votes) and not only gives large amounts of blood but also directly gives pool. I have always, and will continue, to hold the position that Voter Cap is the card that needs restricting far more than Minion Tap ever needed. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > I think the first change is that it must target a vampire with at least 2 blood. > > Secondly, I honestly did not see the need for this card to be created. All of the other "gain significant pool" cards have many conditions, Voter Cap realistically does not. The Obeah-Refill card is an action requiring a Bloodlines Discipline on Scarce Vampires, Edge of the World is a clan card that requires someone to be ousted during the current action, Giant's Blood is once per game... > > Voter Cap relies on a common discipline, feeds off the main ousting mechanic of a deck utilising it (Votes) and not only gives large amounts of blood but also directly gives pool. I have always, and will continue, to hold the position that Voter Cap is the card that needs restricting far more than Minion Tap ever needed. > Villein Master. Trifle. Put this card on a vampire you control to move 2 blood from that vampire to your pool. Voter captivation cards cost an aditional pool NC Russia

Nope, VC shouldn't give basically a full refill + pool. I'd have preferred to see VC re-written as... Voter Captivation Action Modifier Only usable after a successful political action. For every vote the referendum of the political action passed by, up to a maximum of 3, this vampire gains 1 blood from the blood bank. As above, but this vampire may gain a maximum of 5 blood. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Nope, VC shouldn't give basically a full refill + pool. I'd have preferred to see VC re-written as... > > Voter Captivation > Action Modifier > Only usable after a successful political action. > For every vote the referendum of the political action passed by, up to a maximum of 3, this vampire gains 1 blood from the blood bank. > As above, but this vampire may gain a maximum of 5 blood. > VC is the only card, which puts in use the difference in number of votes by which referendum pases. It must be strong. In your wording it looks like just marginally playable boring card. Also it collaterally punishes big vams. NC Russia

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Secondly, I honestly did not see the need for this card to be created. > I suppose it was created to stop the Anthelios/Minion Tap combo. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Ankha, what are the ways to do that? MT + Golconda MT + Voter Cap MT + Giants Blood VC is the only one without an internal limitation. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > VC is the only one without an internal limitation. > You need to win referendum? NC Russia

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Ankha, what are the ways to do that? > > MT + Golconda > MT + Voter Cap > MT + Giants Blood > > VC is the only one without an internal limitation. > MT + Dmitra MT + Concert Tour (not seen quite ofter though) Vc requires to win a referendum, and by many votes. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

@Elotar: Which is already something the deck is trying to do to oust. The others are ways of avoiding being ousted (Giant's Blood, Concert Tour, etc, etc, etc). They provide blood/pool in a defensive fashion only. @Ankha: Dmitra gives 4 blood at most from her action. So it seems fair that VC should give between 3 and 5. Concert Tour is Clan-Only for a generally fairly weak clan which has its largest capacity vampire around 7cap. So, for 1 blood action you MIGHT gain 7 blood (but probably not the full 7 blood). Again, it comes back to the fact that VC hinges off a commonly available OUSTING mechanism. Most of the non-VC ways to refill a vampire are not directly connected to ousting, but more Defensive. Most of the others do NOT provide pool, with the exception of Edge of the World which has the most restrictions of all of them. The only way to 'cancel' a VC is via DI, but there are other ways to deal with MT on its own. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> elotar wrote: > I think we need some necro! > I disagree.

Juggernaut said - "Again, it comes back to the fact that VC hinges off a commonly available OUSTING mechanism. Most of the non-VC ways to refill a vampire are not directly connected to ousting, but more Defensive. Most of the others do NOT provide pool, with the exception of Edge of the World which has the most restrictions of all of them. The only way to 'cancel' a VC is via DI, but there are other ways to deal with MT on its own." (I apologize in advance for the weird way of publishing the qoute above) I would argue that VC has similarities to taste of vitae. They both need two criteria. For VC you need a vote and means to pass that vote. Taste needs you to get into combat and to inflict damage to a vampire who has blood. Voting per definition is not ousting per definition but rather dependant on the vote in question exactly in the way that the importance of a combat is dependant on how important the combatants are to their respective controller. VC demands a common discipline taste doesnt have any such limitations. Both cards can fill you up depending on circumstances. VC can give you pool whereas taste can´t. I´m not propagating that combat is more effective than voting as an ousting mechanism, but rather saying there are cards (notably taste of vitae) that can delivier similarly positive effects.

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > @Ankha: > Dmitra gives 4 blood at most from her action. So it seems fair that VC should give between 3 and 5. > Are we talking about Villein or VC? If the latter, create a new post indicating what you're trying to fix, because I'm not convinced that errating VC would make the game better. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Ankha, I argue that Villein was unnecessary. The problem with repeated Minion Taps lays with Voter Cap in particular, and potentially with the Minion Tap + Golconda + Anthelios combination. The claim about the need for Villein is that these combinations slow down games. My argument is simple: 1. VC needed the change, because it is the only card with few requirements that is also connected to a major way of ousting your prey; Vote Decks. VC gives not just blood, but also pool (up to 2 pool). 2. There is one other card that gives a vampire significant amounts of blood AND pool; Edge of the World which is a Laibon Clan Card that can only be played on an ousting action. 3. Any other card that gives enough blood to fill a vampire has significant limitations. Renewed Vigor requires which is a Bloodline discipline. Dmitra's ability does not refill a vampire, at most it gives 4 blood. Concert Tour is a Clan Card for a Bloodline Clan that can at most give 8 blood. Conclusion: Golconda + MT wasn't restricted by Villein. It was enhanced because of the Trifle status of Villein. So now it is easier to gain up to 11 pool in a single master phase from Villein + Golconda. The only mechanics that were affected were VC + Minion Tap and Renewed Vigor + MT. Renewed Vigor would, by its nature of being a bloodline discipline, be a comparatively rare card (in play). So that leaves the only tactic affected as VC + Minion Tap. So you can errata Minion Tap or VC. LSJ and the others chose Minion Tap, but I think that it should have been VC. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Most of the non-VC ways to refill a vampire are not directly connected to ousting, but more Defensive. > I'd argue that whacking vampires on the left is a pretty offensive action. Also, not all votes are an ousting mechanism and your entire argument is built around the assumption that every vote card put on the table goes unblocked and passes by more than 6 votes. > The only way to 'cancel' a VC is via DI > Or Denial of Aphrodite's Favor or Iron Heart or Touch of Clarity. Or Delaying Tactics *after* the votepush has been played. Also, Voter Cap provides 2 pool at best. By your own argument there are other ways to counter the Minion Tap that followed. There's a bunch of other cards that give 2 pool directly (Art Scam, Haqim's Law) or indirectly (Enchant Kindred, Scouting Mission and lots of similar cards) that don't require a succesfull political action, a referendum to pass by at least 2 votes and then an additional card on top of it. Does Art Scam need fixing?

> Izaak wrote: > There's a bunch of other cards that give 2 pool directly (Art Scam, Haqim's Law) or indirectly (Enchant Kindred, Scouting Mission and lots of similar cards) that don't require a succesfull political action, a referendum to pass by at least 2 votes and then an additional card on top of it. > +1 Generally I think we are a little lost in debate and forget the point of all of it. (1) Main reason to Villein was an idea to speed the game by penalizing cap&tap in the mid-end game. (was it really a problem at the time?) It was failure: (2) cap&tap becomes just better, and (3) generraly number of 0,5 VP games rose, cause of simplier pool gain. (is it really true?) but (4) Big cap vampires become more playable (is it really good 4 the game?) (5) There are piles of arguments against villein in general (6) There are piles of arguments against changing the game I think we have to begin from the (1) NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > (1) Main reason to Villein was an idea to speed the game by penalizing cap&tap in the mid-end game. > Probably not. More likely, Villein was designed as an alternative to Minion Tap in exactly the same way that Vessel was designed as an alternative to Blood Doll, in order to provide players with actual choices during deckbuilding. Unfortunately, Villein failed (mostly) where Vessel succeeded (somewhat).

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > My argument is simple: > 1. VC needed the change, because it is the only card with few requirements that is also connected to a major way of ousting your prey; Vote Decks. VC gives not just blood, but also pool (up to 2 pool). > I don't see any problem with VC as it is, even with Villein. The day tournaments will be trusted by such decks, we may have a look at it. In the meantime, even when MT+VC was possible, it doesn't (nor didn't) trust the first places of tournaments, so why fix it? I would rather be concerned by decks that get more than 2 MPA per turn in fact. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Those decks are just another really strong archtype, just like S/B and Lawfirms are. When you design a deck, you have to consider "how do I deal with bleeders" and "how do I deal with voters". I'd add "how do I deal with 3 masterphase bloat monsters?"

> Kushiel wrote: > > > elotar wrote: > > (1) Main reason to Villein was an idea to speed the game by penalizing cap&tap in the mid-end game. > > > Probably not. More likely, Villein was designed as an alternative to Minion Tap in exactly the same way that Vessel was designed as an alternative to Blood Doll, in order to provide players with actual choices during deckbuilding. Unfortunately, Villein failed (mostly) where Vessel succeeded (somewhat). > The question here is "do we need solution for cap&tap?" If we doesn't need it villein can just be errated to "trifle: move 2 blood" or banned with no real hurt 4 the game. NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > The question here is "do we need solution for cap&tap?" If we doesn't need it villein can just be errated to "trifle: move 2 blood" or banned with no real hurt 4 the game. > No, and no. Your conclusion does not follow from your premise. Tap&Cap does not need a solution. Villein was not designed as a solution. You have not demonstrated any need to change Villein.

Lasombra, The main question I ask is... What is the purpose of Villein if NOT to hurt the play of Minion Tap? There are a scarce few cards that mention another card specifically (Villein, Vessel spring immediately to mind). So if Villein is not there to hurt Minion Tap, why does it specifically hurt the play of Minion Tap? From there I conclude that Villein must have been designed specifically because of issues with Minion Tap. From there I go back to the argument above, that the problem people must have perceived with Minion Tap is things like: AAA: Tap + Golconda on a big-cap (e.g. Anson, Anneke, Masika, Alexandra) Cap & Tap: Tap the majority of blood off a minion, refill them with VC and repeat the Tap in the next Master Phase. (gaining an additional 2 pool from the VC). Refill & Tap: Limited by Clan and/or Bloodline Discpline so unlikely to be a widespread effect that would cause significant numbers of games to time out. Thaumaturgy & Tap: This is basically a combat or wall-combat deck technique. Historically these have had limited success at regularly winning games but may have contributed to time outs. Therefore I reach the conclusion that, Villein appears to have been created to specifically counter some effect of Minion Tap and the only plausible target deck-types for that countering are "Cat & Tap" and "AAA". Since there are comparatively few ways to affect "AAA"-type decks other than SR, Wash and The Uncoiling... the easiest target to both AAA and Cap&Tap is the Minion Tap. The result has been to create a card that enhances the AAA deck and restricts Cap&Tap. So, if the card functions as intended... Cap&Tap was the target and if the Cap was changed to limit the blood given (and then limit the blood to be removed by the later Tap) and NOT give pool. It will reduce the pool-bloat of Cap&Tap decks which would meet the objective of stopping games timing out by excessive bloat. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

Asking anyone other than L. Scott Johnson what he had in mind when he created Villein is pointless speculation. In my opinion, Villein was created to enable large vampire decks and to enable greater diversity in master cards. It enables large vampire decks by quickly recapturing invested pool. It provides greater diversity in master card play by being a trifle. Any other value is superfluous. Remember, if you want to know why LSJ did something, you can ask him.

> Adonai wrote: > Asking anyone other than L. Scott Johnson what he had in mind when he created Villein is pointless speculation. > > In my opinion, Villein was created to enable large vampire decks and to enable greater diversity in master cards. It enables large vampire decks by quickly recapturing invested pool. It provides greater diversity in master card play by being a trifle. > > Any other value is superfluous. > > Remember, if you want to know why LSJ did something, you can ask him. > Support 100%. The only thing bad on villein is that is not common.

> Adonai wrote: > Remember, if you want to know why LSJ did something, you can ask him. > How? Disappointingly, he has no presence here, and asking him in email or chatting with him wouldn't serve this community at all. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017 Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

Would it be possible to ask him to make an account here instead of boardgamegeek? I haven't visited vtes bgg page for ages and I won't. forceofpersonality.blogspot.com

> Adonai wrote: > No, and no. > > Your conclusion does not follow from your premise. > > Tap&Cap does not need a solution. > Villein was not designed as a solution. > > You have not demonstrated any need to change Villein. > The whole point of my post is that we have to split complex problem into smaller ones. By now the game is not broken, so any decitions conserning errata/bannings will have list of positive and list of negative consequences. We just have to make a list and compare to halves. U r trying to say, that we got such positive aspects of villein: 1. Enabling of big vampires 2. Greater card (master) diversity My conserns: 1. R u saying, that line "minion tap cards cost aditional pool" provides no positive benefit to the game? 2. Why more big caps is better 4 the game? 3. We got 5-6 extra master slots, but we lost 5-6 trifle slots and all other blood management options becomes unplayable. So have card diversity really increased? NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > The whole point of my post is that we have to split complex problem into smaller ones. > I have to admit that I find this whole discussion kind of boring. For nearly three months everybody repeats the same arguments over and over again. Some of us came to an agreement to calm down, wait for a year to see if the concerns of you and the others of your opinion prove to be true. Or if the game benefits of Villein. When I saw that you again relit the torch () I felt a bit frustrated. This forceful complaining about one card gets a scent of hysterical behaviour. There are arguments in favour of Villein, there are some against. But this is true for all strong cards (e.g. Mirror Walk, Monastery of Shadows, Pentex Subversion, Direct Intervention, Parity Shift, Delaying Tactics, heck even Dreams of the Sphinx, I personally find Elder Impersonation too strong). As you see this discussion will never come to a satisfying end. Let us gather some information through this tournament season and meet again in late Fall (after the main tournaments are over). At least I'm off until then. Baron of Frankfurt

> elotar wrote: > The whole point of my post is that we have to split complex problem into smaller ones. > I agree with Joscha. I don't believe that there is a complex problem here. > elotar wrote: > By now the game is not broken, so any decisions concerning errata/banning will have list of positive and list of negative consequences. We just have to make a list and compare to halves. > > U r trying to say, that we got such positive aspects of villein: > 1. Enabling of big vampires > 2. Greater card (master) diversity > > My concerns: > 1. R u saying, that line "minion tap cards cost additional pool" provides no positive benefit to the game? > I'm saying that it doesn't matter to the game as a whole. There are swings and roundabouts, there are rock to your paper to other's scissors. All opponents are not playing Villein in every deck on every table. > elotar wrote: > 2. Why more big caps is better 4 the game? > Being run over by 2-3-4 caps in 3-4 turns of play makes people leave the game. Improving large capacity vampires viability was one of the design prerequisites of the last 4-5 sets. > elotar wrote: > 3. We got 5-6 extra master slots, but we lost 5-6 trifle slots and all other blood management options becomes unplayable. So have card diversity really increased? > Yes. More non-pool gain cards are seeing play. When your master selection is only pool gain, vast swathes of the game become lost. Villein + (other random permanent) is better than the game without the random permanent, which is what was observed when Minion Tap was the only option for quick pool recovery.

> Joscha wrote: > > I have to admit that I find this whole discussion kind of boring. > I'm bored too. Suggest other topic for discussion, we got nothing interesting going here! Mybe I'll be distracted Returning to the topic - I really don't think, that smth will change in a year - we already got 21 villeins in the EC2010 final. And the nature of the game ensures, that there still be idiotic decks without villeins in TWDA. NC Russia

> Adonai wrote: > I'm saying that it doesn't matter to the game as a whole. There are swings and roundabouts, there are rock to your paper to other's scissors. All opponents are not playing Villein in every deck on every table. > Em, no? There are no "rocks" to villein and there are very few decks, which doesn't need villein (smalcaps, multiple masters with ashurs, that's all?) > Adonai wrote: > > > elotar wrote: > > 2. Why more big caps is better 4 the game? > > > Being run over by 2-3-4 caps in 3-4 turns of play makes people leave the game. Improving large capacity vampires viability was one of the design prerequisites of the last 4-5 sets. > You got some alien logic here - Villein does nothing (additional to MT) against smallcap rush. Offtop: And generally I disagree with this "design prerequisites". I think anybody can look at Arika and see, where really is a problem of big vampires. Spoiler - they just need more abilities! The road to decrese cost of them is wrong one. > Adonai wrote: > Yes. > More non-pool gain cards are seeing play. > When your master selection is only pool gain, vast swathes of the game become lost. Villein + (other random permanent) is better than the game without the random permanent, which is what was observed when Minion Tap was the only option for quick pool recovery. > OK. We got 1 argument forV: +5-6 "additional" master slots. NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > The question here is "do we need solution for cap&tap?" > Obviously, no. It's been around since day one of the game, and the sky is still firmly in place. > elotar wrote: > If we doesn't need it villein can just be errated to "trifle: move 2 blood" or banned with no real hurt 4 the game. > Your conclusion doesn't follow from your question unless we all agree to your assumption that Villein was introduced to the game in order to stop people from playing Minion Tap. And like I just wrote upthread, there's no indication that it was. Like Joscha, I'm gonna just drop the mic and be out for a while.

> KevinM wrote: > > > Adonai wrote: > > Remember, if you want to know why LSJ did something, you can ask him. > > > How? > Ask him on BGG, copy/paste the conversation here.

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > What is the purpose of Villein > Here is LSJ's answer: boardgamegeek.com/thread/640121/design-reflections-ndas-expired Emphasis mine. > Non-existant user wrote: > It is strong enough to play instead of Minion Tap. > It is strong enough to play even when people are not playing Minion Tap. > When played, it weakens Minion Tap and itself. > Its existence makes running Minion Tap or not a slightly pause-giving decision. > It can't be blindly cycled in game, both individually and subsequently, making the number of Villein to run (if at all) a more interesting design decision, while also ensuring play decisions as well. >

> Non-existant user wrote: > Its existence makes running Minion Tap or not a slightly pause-giving decision. > It can't be blindly cycled in game, both individually and subsequently, making the number of Villein to run (if at all) a more interesting design decision, while also ensuring play decisions as well. > I will go kill myself. NC Russia

> Non-existant user wrote: > It is strong enough to play instead of Minion Tap. > It is strong enough to play even when people are not playing Minion Tap. > When played, it weakens Minion Tap and itself. > Its existence makes running Minion Tap or not a slightly pause-giving decision. > It can't be blindly cycled in game, both individually and subsequently, making the number of Villein to run (if at all) a more interesting design decision, while also ensuring play decisions as well. > So, from the first line... it's purpose was to have a direct effect on Minion Tap specifically to weaken it within the game. Consequently, I feel confident to return to my previous comments about the reasons I can see for restricting/impacting Minion Tap were those outlined above. > Non-existant user wrote: > It can't be blindly cycled in game, both individually and subsequently, making the number of Villein to run (if at all) a more interesting design decision, while also ensuring play decisions as well. > However, the ruling allowing it to target any minion instead of those with 2 blood or more means that the only decision required is "Which of my minions do I target?" rather than "Can I afford to lose 2 blood from Vampire X instead of holding onto this card until I can play it?" That provides more of a decision-making event than Villein would seem to in its currently ruled version (playable on any Vampire where the chosen amount, or whatever the vampire has, must be removed). It appears that now the deck decision is: Do I include Villein or not bother? Those amongst us in the "Optimal Deck Efficiency" Camp advocate for generally replacing Minion Tap with Villein in almost all circumstances. (I don't tend to build Optimal Decks since I can find them bland and homogenous). Which would suggest that the decision does not lie between Miniont Tap or Villein, but Villein for bloat or Option B that is available. Thanks to LSJ for clearing up that much. Thanks to Lasombra for doing that small amount of legwork for us all. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

The most obvious fix to balance villein imo would simply be to replace the 'villein costs x more to play on this vampire' with 'a vampire can have only one villein' Or alternatively, give a cap to how many blood you can move with villein to like say 4 max. I would personally prefer the first one, which would make it fairly bad for the tap and cap strategies, while still useful to those who were only going to get some blood off their guys once anyway.

See the thing is that the decks who want to repeatedly remove large amounts of blood during the Master Phase will either: a) Use one Villein per minion (for the vast majority of the blood) before refilling them in the turn. b) Rely on the frequency and regularity of their Tap to ignore the costs created by Villein. c) Plan to Golconda the guy with Villein so it poses no more problems. The option that isn't addressed by those changes to Villein is a comparatively master-heavy mid-to-weenie deck that intends to play one on each of a number of minions. In that scenario, which I would assume was considered during the designing of the card, is about heavily punishing Minion Tap. And the reasons I see for punishing Minion Tap specifically in such a strong cumulative way was addressed before. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

Just my 2cents but I really don't see the problem with villein. It really improves a lot of fatty decks that previously used minion taps, such as fatty rush decks, without preventing them from playing that precious Fame the same turn. It would really sucks a lot to ban this card, as banning cards is a bad thing generally speaking. The errata on not impacting minion tap may be considerate but before villein about 90% of my decks did NOT use minion tap and relied on blood doll/vessel or other pool gain. You CAN live without minion taps. I often see such lobbying on banning a card as a way to not having to think about how dealing with other decks when building yours. Sometimes it's justified (return to innocence, dramatic upheaval etc) sometimes it's not (PTO, Memories of Mortality, which could have been limited to 1 per game or made unique). During my last tournament I think there were something like 4-5 villeins played each game, by all the 4-5 players. Evn in my deck where I put 7 villeins (on 83cards) I played only 2 and discarded the others (because contrary to minion tap I cannot cycle them for free on a vampire with already one villein, and cannot play them on my vamp with 1-2 blood without emptying him and loosing a turn), I included a lot just to have one early in the game. So a player playing minion tap (and voter cap) would have lost between 0 and 4 pool per minion tap. It won't kill his game each time, even if it's painful I agree.