Infernal Familiar Burn timing

Question: When does the Vampire with Infernal Familiar burn? Say Saiz (3 cap with ) with 3 counters on IF takes an action. Somebody tries to block him, but he then decide to play Lost in Crowds. That would resolve in IF getting a fourth counter. Does Saiz burn "into the crowds", or would the action resolve before him burning? Infernal Familiar Type: Retainer Requires: Thaumaturgy Cost: 2 blood Demon with 2 life. [tha] The vampire with this retainer can play a card that requires a Discipline he or she does not have as if he or she had the basic level of that Discipline; if he or she does so, place an investment counter on the Infernal Familiar. If the number of investment counters on the Familiar is greater than this vampire's capacity, burn this vampire. Rarity: Sabbat:R CE:R Third:R

> Baaliprimogen wrote: > Question: When does the Vampire with Infernal Familiar burn? > Whenever the counters exceed the capacity, as in card text. > Baaliprimogen wrote: > Say Saiz (3 cap with ) with 3 counters on IF takes an action. Somebody tries to block him, but he then decide to play Lost in Crowds. That would resolve in IF getting a fourth counter. Does Saiz burn "into the crowds", or would the action resolve before him burning? > Nothing in card text suggests you should delay burning until some point that might be more convenient for you. You burn when you have the counters in excees of capacity. That could be mid-action, mid-combat etc.

That's what I thought. But then, why would you ever burn your own minion? Except on maybe a reduce bleed reaction or something of that sort...

> Baaliprimogen wrote: > That's what I thought. But then, why would you ever burn your own minion? Except on maybe a reduce bleed reaction or something of that sort... > It's more there as a 'Don't exceed this limit' kind of deal, and happens to be quite flavoursome. (Consider that the demon has finally taken over the vampire completely, removing them from a Methuselah's grasp.) However, you can if you want to and, for example, in a scrappy end-game, you might be willing to play a card, burn a minion, survive for just that little bit longer, and get your extra VPs, Game Wins or surviving until the timeout. e.g. playing this Deflection means I don't get ousted now, so I might have an extra chance to live. As an acting minion, the opportunities are fewer - but there might be some corner cases. Perhaps this final Kiss of Ra will win you the game, so you don't care about the vampire burning.

jamesatzephyr is correct.

Maybe this would be a nice combo with Heidelberg and Spirit Marrionette.

Sometimes you want to burn your own minions. Here's a deck that does that and that features the Infernal Familiar (however, sadly, the burning is not a result of the Familiar): Deck Name: Author: Array Description: (you should influence 4 on Jacob) Crypt (23 cards; Capacity min=2 max=2 avg=2) ============================================ 23x Jacob, The Glitch 2 THA !Tremere:3 Library (90 cards) ================== Action (23) 18x Force of Will 5x Scrounging Equipment (7) 7x Soul Gem of Etrius Retainer (18) 18x Infernal Familiar Action Modifier (42) 17x Conditioning 18x Daring the Dawn 7x Freak Drive

So awesome!

> Pascal wrote: > Sometimes you want to burn your own minions. > Here's a deck that does that and that features the Infernal Familiar (however, sadly, the burning is not a result of the Familiar): > In this one, it's sometimes useful (when you have quite a bad drawing with too many Freak Drives): Deck Name : Turbo Jacob Author : Ankha Description : Jacob gets out with 4 blood, recruits and Infernal Familiar, Freak Drives, fetches the Soul Gem on the first Summon History, burns with the Daring the Dawn. Repeat getting allies (Infernal Familiars feed War Ghouls) Crypt [15 vampires] Capacity min: 2 max: 2 average: 2 15x Jacob, The Glitch 2 THA !Tremere:3 Library [65 cards] Action [14] 5x Scrounging 9x Summon History Action Modifier [29] 9x Daring the Dawn 20x Freak Drive Ally [9] 1x Brigitte Gebauer (Wraith) 2x Nephandus (Mage) 1x Tye Cooper 1x Veneficti (Mage) 4x War Ghoul Equipment [1] 1x Soul Gem of Etrius Master [2] 1x Dreams of the Sphinx 1x Pentex(TM) Subversion Retainer [10] 10x Infernal Familiar Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > Deck Name : Turbo Jacob > Author : Ankha > Description : Jacob gets out with 4 blood, recruits and Infernal Familiar, Freak Drives, fetches the Soul Gem on the first Summon History, burns with the Daring the Dawn. Repeat getting allies (Infernal Familiars feed War Ghouls) > Do you mean Shambling Hordes? War Ghouls has a clan, not a discipline, requirement, which Infernal Familiar cannot provide. All in all, I like this deck. Finally a good use for Jacob the Glitch. Relevant texts Shambling Hordes 3 Zombie with 3 life. 0 strength, 0 bleed. When Shambling Hordes enters play, remove an ally or vampire in your ash heap from the game or burn the Hordes. The Hordes gets +1 strength for each life counter it has. It can never gain life; any life it gains goes to the blood bank instead. The Hordes can enter combat with any minion as a action. As above, with 4 life. War Ghoul 3 Ghoul with 5 life. 4 strength, 0 bleed. When War Ghoul enters play, burn an ally or retainer you control. She can enter combat with any ready vampire controlled by another Methuselah as a action. She may prevent 1 damage each round. Tap and burn War Ghoul to burn any location; you cannot use this ability during combat. Advocate of Good-looking Deck Posts pulledfangs.blogspot.com :vtes: Manila V:tES

> CryWolf wrote: > Do you mean Shambling Hordes? War Ghouls has a clan, not a discipline, requirement, which Infernal Familiar cannot provide. > That's what the Summon History is for - it lets you put an ally in play, rather than recruiting it. Which means you don't have to meet the clan requirement. Summon History Type: Action Discipline: Temporis Cost: X blood [tem] Search your library and/or ash heap for an ally, retainer or equipment whose cost is X or less. Put that card in play (on this vampire and with starting life from the bank as needed). [TEM] Search your crypt and/or ash heap for a non-scarce vampire with capacity X or less. Put that vampire in play, with no blood.

Doh. Of course. That's what happens if you aren't interested in cards outside your favorite disciplines. Advocate of Good-looking Deck Posts pulledfangs.blogspot.com :vtes: Manila V:tES

Okay a follow-up "question". If a vampire with IF, lets say Saiz, plays this card: Enticement Type: Action Requires: Serpentis Requires the Edge. [ser] Burn the Edge to cause your prey to burn 2 pool. (This action is directed at your prey.) Your minions cannot attempt bleed actions for the remainder of the turn. If nobody blocks this action your prey burns 2 pool, you loose the edge and Saiz gets a counter on IF. But if the action is blocked you don't loose the edge but you still get the counter on IF! i don't see how that is posible. Playing cards that Saiz can't play has the increased cost of a counter. Even if you don't get to play the card. Can someone explain?

> Baaliprimogen wrote: > If nobody blocks this action your prey burns 2 pool, you loose the edge and Saiz gets a counter on IF. > No. When Saiz plays the card, he gets the counter. That is, way back at the beginning of the action, he gets the counter. > Baaliprimogen wrote: > But if the action is blocked you don't loose the edge but you still get the counter on IF! > You get the counter right at the start of the action. > Baaliprimogen wrote: > i don't see how that is posible. Playing cards that Saiz can't play has the increased cost of a counter. Even if you don't get to play the card. Can someone explain? > The Infernal Familiar counter is not a cost. It's just something that happens at a particular time. And it sounds like you're confused about the difference between playing an action card (right at the beginning of the action), and the action being successful. You get the counter when you play the card - if you "don't get to play the card", no counter. But playing an action card is not the same as action resolution.

I get that but is there a difference with the burn edge text of the Enticement?

See section 6.2 of the rulebook. www.vekn.net/index.php/rulebook/6-minion-phase The card is played. Infernal Familiar gets a counter. THEN you resolve the action. You do NOT burn the edge until the action resolves -- that is the difference.

> Baaliprimogen wrote: > I get that but is there a difference with the burn edge text of the Enticement? > Why would there be? Burning the edge is a cost for resolving the action. If you can't burn the edge (say, you've lost it during the action already somehow), the action will fizzle. Could you explain the thought process that makes you think the 'burn edge' text on the card has any impact on Infernal Familiar? InfFamiliar just happens when the card is played. Whether the action is ultimately successful, unsuccessful, fizzles or the game times-out before you can finish is totally irrelevant. That you think the two can somehow interact probably indicates that you have a subtle but deeply-embedded misunderstanding of an awkward bit of card text or rules.

Burning the edge doesn't have an impact on the familiar. That's just to put it in context. I think the "just happens" effect is not worded good enough. Take a look at superior Enrage: Enrage Type: Action Requires: Presence +1 stealth action. Frenzy. Put this card on any vampire. This vampire must burn 2 blood to attempt any action except hunts and actions to enter combat. Burn this card after resolving this vampire's action. Here it clearly states that you have to burn 2 blood to attempt. Here is another card that increases the cost the text: Blood Cult Awareness Network Type: Event Requires: imbued Inquisition. Requires a ready imbued in play. Whenever there are any ready imbued in play, any action to put a vampire or ghoul in play or to add counters to an uncontrolled vampire gets -1 stealth and costs an additional blood or life. Here we increase the cost. *******************SPOILER*ALERT************ But then I saw Direct Intervention. And now I see. You guys are right. I knew you were, but I just wanted a rule-change and convinced myself it was not the same... Sorry

> Baaliprimogen wrote: > Burning the edge doesn't have an impact on the familiar. That's just to put it in context. > It doesn't put anything in context, I'm afraid. > Baaliprimogen wrote: > I think the "just happens" effect is not worded good enough. > Why? It just happens whenever a card is played. That's how it works. > Baaliprimogen wrote: > Here it clearly states that you have to burn 2 blood to attempt. > But it's a totally different effect. Infernal Familiar works on *all* card plays, not just actions. If Infernal Familiar said "The vampire with this retainer must get an Investment counter on the familiar to attempt an action", it wouldn't affect playing Freak Drive, Deflection, or anything else. Since it works on all card plays equally, it's phrased to affect all card plays. And the 'burns blood to attempt' effect causes it to happen on *all* action attempts, not just thost involving the play of a card. It would also, for example, require burning of blood to attempt a cardless 'rescue from torpor' action. Totally different effect. It's not a cost. It just happens.

jamesatzephyr's answers are correct. With Enticement, the Edge is burned as a cost, when action resolves, which is way past the point where the Enticement itself was played (that was at the beginning of the action).