Card Idea: Descent

Descent Cardtype: Master Your prey loses one pool. Thinking about Ascendance, I was wondering why there wasn't a corresponding damaging card. I'm not so much suggesting that this be created as I'm wondering why this card wasn't created alongside Ascendance back in 1994. Would it be unbalanced? Even if you had three MPAs, you could only knock three pool off of your prey - so I don't think it's unbalanced. And you could always throw an "only one per turn" clause on it. Would it be playable? It's not as strong as Anarch Revolt or Antediluvian Awakening, certainly, but it's also not as complicated, and there are certainly circumstances where one extra pool damage would go a long way - so maybe it's playable. So maybe it doesn't make sense in terms of the theme of the Jyhad, meaning that Methuselahs are simply incapable of affecting one another directly. What do you think?

No way such a card would ever see print. Way overpowered. Gaining pool and loosing pool can't be put on same scale. This is just bad card design. Sorry man. NC for Hungary hunfragment.blogspot.com

> DeathInABottle wrote: > Descent > Cardtype: Master > Your prey loses one pool. > > Thinking about Ascendance, I was wondering why there wasn't a corresponding damaging card. > > What do you think? > There is. Personal Involvement [Gehenna:R] Cardtype: Master Cost: 3 pool Master. If your prey has more pool than you (after paying the cost of this card), your prey burns 3 pool. Any Methuselah can cancel this card as it is played by burning 2 pool (the cost of this card is not paid in that case).

> Mephistopheles wrote: > No way such a card would ever see print. Way overpowered. Gaining pool and loosing pool can't be put on same scale. This is just bad card design. Sorry man. > No worries. I don't actually want to see this printed, as I said above; I'm just curious as to why it wasn't. So maybe you could be more specific: why can't gaining pool and losing pool be put on the same scale? Why is this "just bad card design"?

There should be some restriction on the card such as: "not usable if your prey has less than 2 pool." It's not in the spirit of the game to be able to oust someone with a master phase action, which is probably why it wasn't printed back in the beginning of Jyhad. Here's something that might fit with your idea conceptually: Descent (or as I would call it: "I'm better than you! (nyah nyah!)" Master: trifle. This turn, the only master card you may play is Ascendance. When you play Ascendance this turn your prey burns one pool. Edit: How about this one? Descent Master. Trifle. Put this card in play. When any player plays Ascendance he or she may add or remove a counter from this card. Each Methuselah loses pool equal to the amount of counters on this card during his or her master phase. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

Ok, here are my thoughts: You play Ascendance to get +1 pool. Yay. Really not a big deal. If you want to make it a big deal than you need to play many of them. Yay. You play many of them and you will have a hard time making any VP's. Now let's look at the other side. You make your prey loose 1 pool. Annoying but shit happens. You play it let's say 5 times. Ouch! It's direct pool damage that your prey can't defend against. Don1t come with Suddens or Wash because you can't expect people to start each of there deck list with 4+ Suddens. Now let's take a look at what unpreventable pool damage could mean with a few examples. Anson and friends: make some damage with Descent+Ashur until within ousting range, play 1-2 TGB, vote, done. Cybele + Nana + Parthenon: 4 pool damage per/turn? You don't need Descent do all the pool damage. Just causing 5-7 damage/player is already awesome. The difference is, that with pool damage you make vp's. Or maybe I am wrong. NC for Hungary hunfragment.blogspot.com

So if the main concern is MPAs, would a restriction of "You may only play one Descent per turn" solve the problem and make it into an interesting card? Or would it still be too powerful and/or boring? I suppose its main function is to boost the strength of Nana/Cybele/Anson decks, which doesn't say much for it.

A 1/turn limit seems testworthy. Don't know if that would be strong or wallpaper. Talk to your playgroup, build a deck around it with proxy and test it. So you will know. NC for Hungary hunfragment.blogspot.com

By the way, there are cards that do damage to your prey other than the awful Personal Involvement: Antediluvian Awakening and Anarch Revolt. And then you have the Malkavian tricky ones (Malkavian Game / Prank / Game of Malkav) I dont' see the need for such a card. It would either be too good or too bad. Examples of ways to explore: * [Burn option] - Only usable if your prey has more pool than you. Your prey loses 1 pool and you gain 1 pool. * If your prey controls more ready minions than you, he or she burns 1 pool and you gain 1 pool. * Only usable if your prey has the Edge. Your prey burns the Edge and 2 pool.

I think it´s bad design. Cards should be about vampires controlled by a methusalah doing stuff to hurt another methusalah. Nothing funny about the all-master deck. Overkill is highly underrated. You know, like in computor games and such.

> agzocgud wrote: > I think it´s bad design. Cards should be about vampires controlled by a methusalah doing stuff to hurt another methusalah. Nothing funny about the all-master deck. > I was actually considering changing the name of the game to Master: the Eternal Struggle. I guess that wouldn't be a great idea

There's a potential side effect for losing pool: it can oust you. There is no equivalent possible side effect for gaining pool. Therefore, gaining pool is not an equivalent effect to losing pool. See also That Other Game, where most analysis ranks Lightning Bolt as a better card than Healing Salve.

Why don't we have more master cards that deal pool damage? Think about sitting next to Kindred Spirits, DOM/OBF or a pile of KRCs. Now think about that same deck doing an additional pool damage every turn.

Pascal! All the master cards you listed have a way to defend against the pool damage: - you either sacrifice a vampire - or you guess right - or you go anarch The problem with Descent it that it is unpreventable. NC for Hungary hunfragment.blogspot.com

also available: Curse of Nitocris, Gambit Accepted, Smiling Jack, Betrayer there's a ton of master cards that lower your prey's pool! I don't understand what everyone's talking about in this thread. I think there's something different going on here than "unbalanced" > There's a potential side effect for losing pool: it can oust you. There is no equivalent possible side effect for gaining pool. Therefore, gaining pool is not an equivalent effect to losing pool. > > See also That Other Game, where most analysis ranks Lightning Bolt as a better card than Healing Salve. > the potential side effects for gaining pool: you can get new vampires, equipment, allies, or master cards. you can improve your own position, or withstand more bleeds before you get ousted. not getting ousted in VTES is a pretty big priority, since you could have as many as 4 potential predators. the lightning bolt vs healing salve comparison has nothing to do with this. partly because it's a completely different game. but the bolt was mainly useful because it could kill almost any MtG creature that costs 4 or less mana. you could suddenly change the game state back in your favor. the healing salve nicely cancels it out, but all it does for you is keep the game position the exact same. in other words, you have to already be winning when you play it. neither card was ever used for life points unless it meant winning/losing the game right that instant. in VTES, a master card to gain a little pool can afford you more permanents, improving your position. get a vampire who could potentially bleed your prey for 1 every turn! or you can survive longer, and wait for your buddies (or enemies) to change the gamestate back to your favor. on the other hand, pinging your prey for 1 doesn't do much good, unless you're lunging for the oust that turn. for example, your prey could change strategies and start turtling earlier than you'd like, and now you have to bleed through 8 more pool that they would otherwise have spent on vampires. gaining pool is so broken. that's why we love it so much more.

> Mephistopheles wrote: > Pascal! > > All the master cards you listed have a way to defend against the pool damage: > - you either sacrifice a vampire > - or you guess right > - or you go anarch > > The problem with Descent it that it is unpreventable. > Anarch Revolt is quite unpreventable if you're unaware that your predator may play 4 in a turn. Or if you play only titled vampires. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director