Eternal Mask + Khobar Towers

Minion X uses the Eternal Mask to put Minion Y into play. If you toss Minion Y off the tower, LSJ has ruled that Minion X & Eternal Mask must remain in play and cannot do anything (You have to burn the Mask and Minion Y at the same time to remove the Mask, from card text) What happens if you toss Minion X (with the Eternal Mask) off the Khobar Towers? I assumed that with the ruling before that Minion Y would leave play when Minion X (and the Mask) leaves play. Khobar Towers, Al-Khubar Type: Master Requires: Follower of Set Cost: 2 pool Master: unique location Tap during your untap phase to remove a ready minion you control from the game and gain X pool, where X is the capacity of that vampire or the blood or pool cost of that ally. Eternal Mask, The Type: Action Requires: Serpentis Cost: 1 blood +1 stealth action. [ser] Bleed at +1 bleed. [SER] Put this card on this vampire and move a unique vampire from any ash heap to your ready region with any amount of blood from this acting vampire. The minion with this card cannot take actions, block, play reaction cards or vote. You may burn this card and the chosen vampire during any untap phase. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

Nothing happens to Minion Y. LSJ 02-17-2008 > > Vampire A plays Eternal Mask, and targets Vampire B. On my next turn, > > I feed Vampire A to Khobar Towers, Vampire B still stays in play > > right? > > Yes. >

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Minion X uses the Eternal Mask to put Minion Y into play. > > If you toss Minion Y off the tower, LSJ has ruled that Minion X & Eternal Mask must remain in play and cannot do anything (You have to burn the Mask and Minion Y at the same time to remove the Mask, from card text) > > What happens if you toss Minion X (with the Eternal Mask) off the Khobar Towers? > Vampire Y would remain in play. [LSJ 20080217] . There is no effect that burns Y if the Eternal Mask is burned in some other way than via its built-in cardtext. > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > I assumed that with the ruling before that Minion Y would leave play when Minion X (and the Mask) leaves play. > Not quite. The ruling ( [LSJ 20070927] ) works the other way around. It means the Eternal Mask and the target vampire must be in play if you want to burn *both* via Eternal Mask's cardtext. This ruling only applies to Eternal Mask's extent. It means you can't burn *both* if one of them is missing.

Dear all, Sorry for retreiving a quite old post but I am confused right now. Part 1: My last turn: - 1 - Vampire A played superior Eternal Mask to bring Vampire B into play. -. 2 - Vampire B got back to Asheap and Vampire A kept the mask. - 3 - Vampire C played superior Eternal Mask to bring back Vampire B into the ready region. My prey unlock: - 1 - Can I burn both Eternal Mask? - 2 - If not (which I don't understand why), can I choose to burn any one of the two of them or is there any restrictions I cannot see there? - - - Part 2: May Vampire A with Martinelli's Ring play superior Eternal mask to bring Vampire B into the ready region? I would say yes, even if the mask is burn right after Vampire B arrives into the ready region. Name: Martinelli's Ring Cardtype: Equipment Unique equipment. Cards that require Malkavian, Malkavian antitribu, Dementation [dem] or Serpentis [ser] cannot target or be placed on this minion. Burn any cards on this minion that require any of those clans or Disciplines. Thanks in advance, Regards, Rémi. I am Rémi Cavaillé (), Barcelona (Spain). I was the Prince of Lyon (France) around 2003. I am now Official Judge and the 5th Prince of Barcelona. Enjoy VTES, Marvel Champions, L5R and more gaming activities in Khan Jugar: sites.google.com/view/khanjugar/

> Rémi wrote: > Part 1: > > My last turn: > - 1 - Vampire A played superior Eternal Mask to bring Vampire B into play. > -. 2 - Vampire B got back to Asheap and Vampire A kept the mask. > - 3 - Vampire C played superior Eternal Mask to bring back Vampire B into the ready region. > > My prey unlock: > - 1 - Can I burn both Eternal Mask? > Yes. No, see my next answer. > Rémi wrote: > May Vampire A with Martinelli's Ring play superior Eternal mask to bring Vampire B into the ready region? > No. You can't play the EM on the vampire with the Martinelli's Ring (cardtext). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > > > Rémi wrote: > > Part 1: > > > > My last turn: > > - 1 - Vampire A played superior Eternal Mask to bring Vampire B into play. > > -. 2 - Vampire B got back to Asheap and Vampire A kept the mask. > > - 3 - Vampire C played superior Eternal Mask to bring back Vampire B into the ready region. > > > > My prey unlock: > > - 1 - Can I burn both Eternal Mask? > > > Yes. > > [...] > I don't get this answer. According to LSJ's ruling you have to burn both the Eternal Mask and the returned vampire simultaneously. Does this mean you burn both Eternal Masks (that have brought back the same vampire) at the same time with that vampire? I'd expect you burn 1 Eternal Mask with the vampire, and after that you can't burn the second one, since the vampire is not in play anymore. Prince of Bonn, Germany

> Yomyael wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > Rémi wrote: > > > Part 1: > > > > > > My last turn: > > > - 1 - Vampire A played superior Eternal Mask to bring Vampire B into play. > > > -. 2 - Vampire B got back to Asheap and Vampire A kept the mask. > > > - 3 - Vampire C played superior Eternal Mask to bring back Vampire B into the ready region. > > > > > > My prey unlock: > > > - 1 - Can I burn both Eternal Mask? > > > > > Yes. > > > > [...] > > > I don't get this answer. According to LSJ's ruling you have to burn both the Eternal Mask and the returned vampire simultaneously. Does this mean you burn both Eternal Masks (that have brought back the same vampire) at the same time with that vampire? I'd expect you burn 1 Eternal Mask with the vampire, and after that you can't burn the second one, since the vampire is not in play anymore. > I also don't understand this. A retrieves B with Eternal Mask. B burns again somehow and goes back to the ash heap. C retrieves B with Eternal Mask. When B hit the ash heap, B was wiped clean of all effects that had previously targeted B. [LSJ 20040726] > > LSJ wrote: > The ash heap, library, and crypt all "wash" the cards clean (except > for a memory of how they got there, in the case of the ash heap and > certain retrieval mechanisms). > So as far as A is concerned, the B that has been retrieved by C is not the chosen vampire for A's Eternal Mask. That old B and new B are not treated by the game as being the same vampire is fairly fundamental to, amongst other things, some recycling Turbo decks that take non-repeatable actions with returned vampires. (Turbo-Baron style decks.)

The question is , can you burn Eternal Mask if the vampire you moved to your ready region was burned. I think you can, therefore as you said because its not the same vampire if you move it again with another Eternal Mask you can burn the first mask for free and the second one with burning mask and vampire at the same time.

> Grzybas wrote: > The question is , can you burn Eternal Mask if the vampire you moved to your ready region was burned. > No. You have to burn Eternal Mask and the chosen vampire. If the chosen vampire isn't there, you don't have a legal target for the burn effect. [LSJ 20090725] > LSJ wrote: > > Also, If Vampire A targets a burned Vampire B with The Eternal Mask, > > and Vampire B is banished and moved to the uncontrolled region, would > > one be able to voluntarily burn The Eternal Mask without burning > > Vampire B, and then move Vampire B into the ready region with no > > penalty? > > No. The effect to burn the Eternal Mask given in Eternal Mask's card text > targets the chosen vampire as well. It cannot be used if that target isn't in > the game. > See also Pascal's post up-thread, although the link to Yahoo Groups doesn't work. > Grzybas wrote: > I think you can, therefore as you said because its not the same vampire if you move it again with another Eternal Mask you can burn the first mask for free > Nope. To use Eternal Mask's burn text, you have to burn both cards.

hmm then the wording would make much more sense if it was something like "you can burn the chosen vampire to burn this card during any unlock phase"

> Yomyael wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > Rémi wrote: > > > Part 1: > > > > > > My last turn: > > > - 1 - Vampire A played superior Eternal Mask to bring Vampire B into play. > > > -. 2 - Vampire B got back to Asheap and Vampire A kept the mask. > > > - 3 - Vampire C played superior Eternal Mask to bring back Vampire B into the ready region. > > > > > > My prey unlock: > > > - 1 - Can I burn both Eternal Mask? > > > > > Yes. > > > > [...] > > > I don't get this answer. According to LSJ's ruling you have to burn both the Eternal Mask and the returned vampire simultaneously. Does this mean you burn both Eternal Masks (that have brought back the same vampire) at the same time with that vampire? I'd expect you burn 1 Eternal Mask with the vampire, and after that you can't burn the second one, since the vampire is not in play anymore. > My mistake. I got mixed up with the old ruling about Bauble (pre-RTR 2008) that worked differently. Anyway, they both work the same way today: both the EM and the vampire that was brought back with it must be in play in order to burn both of them. You can't burn the EM if that vampire is no longer in play. So: > Rémi wrote: > - 1 - Vampire A played superior Eternal Mask to bring Vampire B into play. > -. 2 - Vampire B got back to Asheap and Vampire A kept the mask. > - 3 - Vampire C played superior Eternal Mask to bring back Vampire B into the ready region. > > My prey unlock: > - 1 - Can I burn both Eternal Mask? > No. You cannot burn the EM A played because B isn't in play anymore. Nevertheless, you can burn the EM C played because B' is in play. B and B' are considered to be different, even though it's the same card. The trip through the ash heap "cleans" any previous effect on that vampire or reference to that vampire. For instance, if B had lost his title previously (before burning), B' has his title when brung back in play by C. > Rémi wrote: > - 2 - If not (which I don't understand why), can I choose to burn any one of the two of them or is there any restrictions I cannot see there? > You can burn only the EM played by C. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Grzybas wrote: > hmm then the wording would make much more sense if it was something like "you can burn the chosen vampire to burn this card during any unlock phase" > There's no order to burn both cards; "you can burn this card to burn the chosen vampire..." would be as valid as your suggestion. If an effect has mandatory targets, they must all be present in order to announce the effect. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Thanks! Regards, Rémi. I am Rémi Cavaillé (), Barcelona (Spain). I was the Prince of Lyon (France) around 2003. I am now Official Judge and the 5th Prince of Barcelona. Enjoy VTES, Marvel Champions, L5R and more gaming activities in Khan Jugar: sites.google.com/view/khanjugar/