Pay-to-Print for Cards

I am wondering, who here would be willing to try the following idea for future VTES Expansions released by VEKN. GMT Games has it's "500 List". Basically boardgames that are no longer in current production can get put on the "500 List" by enthusiasts. People can then pre-order any game on the "500 List". When there are at least 500 pre-orders, then GMT produces a 500-copy print run of the game and then waits for the pre-orders to climb back to 500 before printing the next run. So: Would you be willing to **preorder** a box of VEKN-printed Professional Quality Manufactured cards for any future VEKN set, knowing that when the orders reach a high enough level you will get your cards shipped to you? This is in contrast to just grabbing the PDF, going to Kinkos and then grabbing some spray on craft glue and a paper guillotine to make your own. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

Sounds like å good idea. I like it alot.

I like that a lot, and i am sure my playgroup would like that option...

would like that option very much, compared to the other alternative of printing it yourself.

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > > Would you be willing to **preorder** a box of VEKN-printed Professional Quality Manufactured cards for any future VEKN set, knowing that when the orders reach a high enough level you will get your cards shipped to you? > Yes, 100%. Of course it depends a bit on the prices. But I'd rather spend money to get good quality than to print out a PDF. Baron of Frankfurt

splendid idea! as long as rarity is conform the need of the cards (not like touch of clarity, summon history, beast meld, ezmerelda, etc). when i initially read the title of this thread, i assumed poster meant being able to order specific cards to be printed at a fixed price (no longer holding on to the old sealed booster-principle - which i for one would like even better).

I'm not even saying that they should be bundled in boosters. The boxes could be designed like starters, like the LCG-formats or as a "complete set" (eg. you get 1 R1, 2 R2 cards, X Uncommons, Y Commons of each card with that rarity)... how they are distributed is almost irrelevant to how they are created. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

i think this would be the best idea to publish new cards. and i dont really care if they will be sold in boosters or preconstructed card sets.

I'd be in.

me too !! Pentex Board of Directors Prince of Oye Plage Alastor Grand Nord

Would be more than glad and willing to pay-to-help-print VTES, but only for as long, as it keeps holding on to the old sealed booster-principle. Nothing like the new and increasingly popular notion of having sellected cards printed on demand.

> SLave wrote: > Would be more than glad and willing to pay-to-help-print VTES, but only for as long, as it keeps holding on to the old sealed booster-principle. Nothing like the new and increasingly popular notion of having sellected cards printed on demand. > Well, I don't think the "sealed booster" is going to work either. First of all, I'm for keeping costs down, and that means not randomizing and packaging cards into smaller packages. Secondly, even buying a couple boxes of boosters may not guarantee getting a complete set of cards. Under the "500" system, after the initial printing... if you didn't get everything you wanted you would have to buy from a very limited pool of independent card sellers or trade for them. You can't just order a box, you would have to wait till 500 orders are made for another printing. I suggest two possibilities: 1) Rate each card on power level. Buying a set of cards would net a number of each common, uncommon and rare card. (Maybe 4, 2, 1 respectively?) 2) Rate each card on playability (IE how many would a sane person use of a given card in a deck) and use that to base how many of each card in the set. Either of those two options would allow players to assess how many sets (if more than one) they want to buy to make the decks. Most people will balance costs vs. how many cards they are willing to buy or trade for. I suppose an advantage of doing random boosters is that it will force people to "overbuy" to insure that the "500" will fill up faster. But I think either way you will find people willing to buy a few extra sets and sell them. Unless print-and-play cards are legal for tournament play which will lessen the demand and deflate prices for card sellers. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

good idea, but I think it's not that simple because of license issues

Yeah, I'd love this option, but I'm not sure about the legal side of things -- would the licensing get in the way here?

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > GMT Games has it's "500 List". Basically boardgames that are no longer in current production can get put on the "500 List" by enthusiasts. People can then pre-order any game on the "500 List". When there are at least 500 pre-orders, then GMT produces a 500-copy print run of the game and then waits for the pre-orders to climb back to 500 before printing the next run. > I went to the website, but couldn't find anywhere the fact they would actually print cards. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I'm not saying GMT would print the cards for us. I'm saying that GMT runs a system where if enough people pre-purchase a game, they will make a print run of the game and send it out to those who pre-purchased. Why not do the same for VTES? VEKN sets up a pre-purchase system and waits until they have orders for say "500 boxes of cards" then they print a run of cards and wait again until there is another lot of X pre-orders... It means that the VEKN doesn't need to either: a) carry stock they can't sell b) generate cash up front and speculate on how many boxes would be sold Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > I'm not saying GMT would print the cards for us. I'm saying that GMT runs a system where if enough people pre-purchase a game, they will make a print run of the game and send it out to those who pre-purchased. > I still don't understand who will print the cards. Or is a "print run" something different than printing the cards? Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

The concept here is not to get GMT to print the cards, it's to discuss the idea of funding the printing of cards by getting fans to pre-buy the product. The company Juggernaut is mentioning is simply an example of a company that is doing something similar to his suggestion, a separate company would need to be found to do the actual printing. If you take a look at www.kickstarter.com you can see various other small / independent games (and other projects) that have or are pursuing funding through a similar means. This page shows that 57 games have achieved funding of over $10k from this, with the highest game on the list getting $76k. But again, that site also isn't going to print the product for you, it's just a way to get financial backing from fans for a product to be developed. Anyway, as I've said on other threads in this forum, I'm in favour of this concept, but I think if VEKN are printing anything it should be in a fixed non-random format. For example a box which contains 5 of each 'common', 2 of each vampire, and 1 of each 'rare'. I would quite happily buy multiple of said boxes depending on price and contents.

Nice, solid idea. But I still think that cards should be published as pdf for anyone to print, and that all reasonably presented cards should be legal for tournament play. And no rarities, no boosters. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Mael wrote: > The concept here is not to get GMT to print the cards, it's to discuss the idea of funding the printing of cards by getting fans to pre-buy the product. > The company Juggernaut is mentioning is simply an example of a company that is doing something similar to his suggestion, a separate company would need to be found to do the actual printing. > That's what I understood from reading the said website, but Jugg's post was confusing. So we'll need *also* to find a company that prints card. Carta Mundi could be a solution but I don't think they're cheap (at least for a small print) and I don't know if they'll be ok to print "genuine" VTES cards. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > So we'll need *also* to find a company that prints card. Carta Mundi could be a solution but I don't think they're cheap (at least for a small print) and I don't know if they'll be ok to print "genuine" VTES cards. > I guess they'd be OK to print anything: it's the VEKN getting sued, not them. Do cards get an ISBN or anything like that?

I doubt it, the problem is the Game Mechanic IP and the Theme IP (Clans, Disciplines, etc) that comes from White Wolf. Ankha, I don't care if Carta Mundi print it, Hallmark, Three bearded truckies from Idaho with a cardboard offset printer or 3,000 Christmas elves in the new years break. The post was never about who prints it but a way to encourage the VEKN to think it would be worth printing professional quality cards by pre-purchasing those cards. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > I doubt it, the problem is the Game Mechanic IP and the Theme IP (Clans, Disciplines, etc) that comes from White Wolf. > Wizards / Hasbro also owns the "Deckmaster" symbol and the "tap" / "untap" mechanics.

> Pascal wrote: > Wizards / Hasbro also owns the "Deckmaster" symbol > which is conveniently located on the back of the cards. So no printing playable cards without Hasbro's agreement.

> Non-existant user wrote: > > > Pascal wrote: > > Wizards / Hasbro also owns the "Deckmaster" symbol > > > which is conveniently located on the back of the cards. So no printing playable cards without Hasbro's agreement. > No printing playable cards FOR PROFIT without Hasbro's agreement. If cards were printed that were not-for-profit (or just outright free) then I doubt Hasbro's lawyers would care. But, again, I say that if a VTES player has the US$50,000 for a start up of a new printed set, feel free. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> KevinM wrote: > No printing playable cards FOR PROFIT without Hasbro's agreement. > > If cards were printed that were not-for-profit (or just outright free) then I doubt Hasbro's lawyers would care. > Are you seriously suggesting to order a print run without even asking for permission first?

> KevinM wrote: > No printing playable cards FOR PROFIT without Hasbro's agreement. > > Non-existant user wrote: > As long as money changes hands, somebody makes a profit. If the VEKN doesn't, the printer does. > Yeah, I saw someone say that a few weeks back, too, and I don't agree. I did imply a not-for-profit situation, which, as I've said many times, I doubt Hasbro would care about. But it's just my opinion. I'm not a lawyer. > KevinM wrote: > If cards were printed that were not-for-profit (or just outright free) then I doubt Hasbro's lawyers would care. > > Non-existant user wrote: > Are you seriously suggesting to order a print run without even asking for permission first? > I'm not suggesting any action whatsoever. I've never suggested any action in any post I've ever made. Perhaps your bias is showing? Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> Non-existant user wrote: > > > Pascal wrote: > > Wizards / Hasbro also owns the "Deckmaster" symbol > > > which is conveniently located on the back of the cards. So no printing playable cards without Hasbro's agreement. > I don´t care for the backs. Everybody use coloured sleeves. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > > > Non-existant user wrote: > > > > > Pascal wrote: > > > Wizards / Hasbro also owns the "Deckmaster" symbol > > > > > which is conveniently located on the back of the cards. So no printing playable cards without Hasbro's agreement. > > > I don´t care for the backs. Everybody use coloured sleeves. > I agree. We already have Jyhad/VTES/upside-down VTES backs, just put a green/orange marble back. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> PetriWessman wrote: > would the licensing get in the way here? > Most likely yeah... I'm sure that powers that be at the helm of VEKN are just anxiously awaiting to get involved with legal actions with lisence holders. > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > VEKN sets up a pre-purchase system and waits until they have orders for say "500 boxes of cards" then they print a run of cards and wait again until there is another lot of X pre-orders... > VEKN is an organization with no funds, bank accounts etc etc. I doubt that many players would even want to pay an annual VEKN membership fee and I see no reason for such a fee. Once money enters the picture there's always the grey area with licencees as well as when fees are involved people are allowed to yell "I put good money on this so why don't I get compensation by X, Y and Z for it?". Currently the cost/effect ratio is most excellent. > Ashur wrote: > I don´t care for the backs. Everybody use coloured sleeves. > In which case why not do the cards the easiest and most convenient way, PDFs? Just add a backing card in a sleeve and these work like a charm -been there for ages with Rage PDF expansions and they work like a charm! And most importantly as Ashur said on the previous page, since we're not doing a proper booster format expansion WHY ON EARTH SHOULD WE INVOLVE RARITIES IN THE MIX!? Besides everything being commons. Or rares depending how you want look at it... Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > > > Ashur wrote: > > I don´t care for the backs. Everybody use coloured sleeves. > > > In which case why not do the cards the easiest and most convenient way, PDFs? > Because of the card thickness and printing quality (for the front of the card). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > > > Lönkka wrote: > > > > > Ashur wrote: > > > I don´t care for the backs. Everybody use coloured sleeves. > > > > > In which case why not do the cards the easiest and most convenient way, PDFs? > > > Because of the card thickness and printing quality (for the front of the card). > Exactly. But do the pdfs, and those that want to can list on the 500-site to have the pdfs printed (as stated in the original post). "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Lönkka wrote: > > > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > > VEKN sets up a pre-purchase system and waits until they have orders for say "500 boxes of cards" then they print a run of cards and wait again until there is another lot of X pre-orders... > > > VEKN is an organization with no funds, bank accounts etc etc. > > I doubt that many players would even want to pay an annual VEKN membership fee and I see no reason for such a fee. Once money enters the picture there's always the grey area with licencees as well as when fees are involved people are allowed to yell "I put good money on this so why don't I get compensation by X, Y and Z for it?". Currently the cost/effect ratio is most excellent. > I'm not asking for a membership system. If the VEKN thought that it needed those, it could probably have an individual set them up on behalf of the VEKN as an association that does not currently have a legal status (which is a perfectly legal thing in Australia, and so I assume England/UK, the US and probably a few other places around the world). IF it went big, then it would be a trivial matter to create a Non-Profit Organisation under a country's taxation/legal system and have the current VEKN Directors become the Legal Board of Directors and the VEKN could establish bank accounts in its own name. Whoo-freakin-hoo... still doesn't require us to be *paid* members of the organisation. All this thread was intended to be was basically people saying "Yes, I would pre-purchase the currently as-yet-to-be produced VTES Expansion IF it would get me good quality printed cards instead of what I can get from Kinkos or my home inkjet printer" It's not about HOW that would be done. That's a decision for the Directors to make on behalf of the VEKN and for its membership/players of VTES. Again, I don't care if that method involved dancing three times on the north of the equator singing a jig and paying the VEKN with bags of red-dyed rice tied to the legs of carrier pigeons... or via Paypal on a website. WOULD YOU PRE-PURCHASE THE UPCOMING SET TO GET GOOD QUALITY PRINTED CARDS? Do I care how the VEKN is getting around the IP issues with VTES? Yes. Do I really need to know the details or do I just need to know that the VEKN is printing them? Not really. It would be nice to know... If they solve them, would it change if you would buy printed cards or just download a PDF? I also don't care if they booster-ise them, randomise them by benobo-monkey, just print the same set of cards into a box, create starters, invite 47 sith lords to telekinetically transport the pieces cut by light sabre to me in my sleep or you know send them to a card company who ships them to me in a brown box delivered by my local postal service. Do you? Would you pre-purchase the upcoming set to get good quality printed cards??? Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > WOULD YOU PRE-PURCHASE THE UPCOMING SET TO GET GOOD QUALITY PRINTED CARDS? > Duh. Is this a trick question? Finnish Politics!

I'm not in the print industry, but I'm pretty sure most printers would refuse to print up something that infringes outright on someone else's IP, especially on big orders. I mean: - a cease and desist letter is quite cheap to write, and some of the rightsholders have lawyers on staff. - if you're halfway through a print job when you get such a letter, any work or materials you've invested are probably at risk. - even if you make it through the job and get paid, you might be liable for damages later. I think an alternate option might be for VEKN - or an independent contributor - to produce files that are ready to send to one or more print-on-demand shops, so that individuals can place their own orders one at a time. That way there's less risk for all parties.