Investments: worth the investment?

Investment cards don't seem to get a lot of play. They've been addressed a couple times in newer cards (Alan Sovereign, Swiss Cut and Wall Street Night) but I still don't see investment cards played too much. The general thought is that they aren't too efficient, taking multiple master phase actions to gain. Here are a couple ideas to make investments more playable: Camouflage Compensation Master. Trifle. Place this card on an investment you control. During your influence phase you may move a counter from the investment card to a vampire in your uncontrolled region. Flexible Spending Requires an Anarch Burn an investment counter on a card you control to increase your bleed by +3. Only one action modifier may be played to increase your bleed this action. If this vampire is burned as a result of this action, burn the investment card. You may pay part or all of the pool cost of a recruit action from an investment you control. Usable on successful bleed. Move a blood from the target Methuselah's uncontrolled region or investment cards to an investment card you control. Sing for your Bread 1 Bleed at +1 Stealth. If this vampire bleeds for more than one, move a blood from the blood bank to an investment card you control. As above, but also move an investment counter from a card you control to your pool. Put this card into play. Burn this card to increase the bleed of a "Sing for your Bread" action by +1 and add an additional investment counter. Burn this card during your discard phase. Personal Accountant 1 Mortal Retainer 2 Life The minion with this retainer may take an action to add two investment counters to an investment card. The action costs one blood or life, and is at +1 stealth if you control the investment card. During your untap phase you may burn an investment counter to give this vampire a blood from the blood bank. I started putting my new card ideas edits in spoilers to keep the OP small. EDIT Warning: Spoiler! Fire Sale Only usable when you are successfully bled. Tap this minion. Burn counters on your investment cards instead of burning pool. This is considered a card that would change the target of a bleed. EDIT 2 Warning: Spoiler! Foreclose Master. Choose a unique location controlled by your prey and an investment controlled by you. That location is considered contested with the investment. You may only pay for the contest with counters from the investment. Mortgage Master. Investment. Choose a location you control and put this card into play with three counters plus the pool cost of the location. You may use a master phase action to move a counter from this card to your pool. You may not use the benefits of the location while Mortgage is in play. EDIT 3 Warning: Spoiler! Greed is Good Move a counter from an investment to your pool. Requires an infernal vampire. Put this card in play. When you move a counter from an investment to your pool, put a counter on this card. You may use counters on this card to pay infernal costs. As above, but put a counter on this card. Condemnation: Greed 2 steal an investment card controlled by your prey. Requires an infernal vampire. Investment. Put this card on a minion. If that minion's controller gains a pool while this minion is acting put an investment counter on this card. You may move a counter to your pool as a master phase action. As above, but put a counter on this card if the minion's controller gains a pool on his turn before his minion phase. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

> direwolf wrote: > Camouflage Compensation > Master. Trifle. > Place this card on an investment you control. During your influence phase you may move a counter from the investment card to a vampire in your uncontrolled region. > Nice, but it would make investments decks even more master heavy. > direwolf wrote: > Flexible Spending > > Requires an Anarch > Burn an investment counter on a card you control to increase your bleed by +3. Only one action modifier may be played to increase your bleed this action. If this vampire is burned as a result of this action, burn the investment card. > You may pay part or all of the pool cost of a recruit action from an investment you control. > Usable on successful bleed. Move a blood from the target Methuselah's uncontrolled region or investment cards to an investment card you control. > I would change the effect from 1 blood to "up to 2 blood". Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Wow, quick with the response... I thought for sure you'd think the dominate on the threeway card would be too strong... after I left I thought it should be bumped down to +2 bleed, or be restricted to one per turn. And I disagree about your comment about making an investment deck more master heavy. Sure, it's another master card, but it's a trifle, and it allows you to utilize one of your investments without using master phase actions. So in the long run it actually helps you play your other master cards. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

> direwolf wrote: > Wow, quick with the response... I thought for sure you'd think the dominate on the threeway card would be too strong... after I left I thought it should be bumped down to +2 bleed, or be restricted to one per turn. > No, it's fine for me. It requires both an anarch and an investment card. Conditioning at inferior is already +2 bleed. > direwolf wrote: > And I disagree about your comment about making an investment deck more master heavy. Sure, it's another master card, but it's a trifle, and it allows you to utilize one of your investments without using master phase actions. So in the long run it actually helps you play your other master cards. > Let's say a play a Proactive Investment (5 counters). First, I'll have to wait the next turn to play Camouflage Compensation. Then, it will last at most 5 turns (probably less). So: hard to play, don't stay long. It's not worth the master slot. Suggestion: make it playable before an investment card, and/or give some extra blood. Eg. Name: Camouflage Compensation Cardtype: Master Master. Trifle. Put an investment card from your hand into play (cost and requirement apply as normal) with Camouflage Compensation on it, or put Camouflage Compensation into play on an investment card you control. During your influence phase, you may move a counter from the investment card to a vampire in your uncontrolled region. You even gain a MPA if you play both at the same time (because CC is trifle, and you put the investment card directly into play). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I really liked the whole idea, specially Fire Sale, but 2 ideas come to my mind about this card: - Rewording: Fire Sale Only usable when you are successfully bled. Tap this minion. Burn X counters on an investment card you control and reduce the bled by X. This is considered a card that would change the target of a bleed. (I don't see the reason to consider it a bounce) - Transform the idea in another card: Liquidity Unique Master Whenever you are succesfully bled or a referendum passes that will make you lose pool, you may burn counters from any investment card you control instead of burning pool. Concept: The investment is made in liquid assets, so you can use them as resources any time. Bottom line, i totally agree if investment cards were more usefull (specially to decks without pool defense)

Great card ideas. Any way to cut down on the volume of wallpaper in our collections is well worth it in my book. Would it be worthwhile to make an Alan Sovereign equivalent in a master card? Maybe a master that becomes an ally like Jake Washington that can be tapped to pay for equipment from an investment? Does this negate Alan too much? Baron of Berkeley

> miketheknife wrote: > I really liked the whole idea, specially Fire Sale, but 2 ideas come to my mind about this card: > > - Rewording: > > Fire Sale > > Only usable when you are successfully bled. Tap this minion. Burn X counters on an investment card you control and reduce the bled by X. This is considered a card that would change the target of a bleed. > > (I don't see the reason to consider it a bounce) > > - Transform the idea in another card: > > Liquidity > > Unique Master > > Whenever you are succesfully bled or a referendum passes that will make you lose pool, you may burn counters from any investment card you control instead of burning pool. > > Concept: The investment is made in liquid assets, so you can use them as resources any time. > > Bottom line, i totally agree if investment cards were more usefull (specially to decks without pool defense) > I think making it a master card is a bad idea since an investment deck is likely to be heavy on master cards to begin with. Also, I feel like if something can be done as a minion card it should if only because this is "Vampire: the Eternal Struggle" not "Methuselah: the Master Card". That being said, if it were to be a master card, it should have a burn clause or should be a location. As for whether the card is a "misdirect" or not is up for debate. There are cards that affect misdirections, and I think it makes the card more interesting. It's a slight drawback to a card with few restrictions. @Anka I agree "Camouflage Compensation" should be usable on an investment you will play with your other master phase action. I didn't bother writing it that way because I tend to keep things simple when I can. We have enough cards that are walls of text You could also argue that it fits into the concept of the investment cards: there isn't an immediate payoff. They are good for the long game. The goal should be to make investment cards more playable but not for immediate gratification. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

I was thinking about what investment cards might be appropriate for a Sabbat set. Sabbat are more about exploiting the Kine than ruling them, so exploitative cards are a better fit thematically. That led me to: Ponzi Scheme - Master - 1 pool Investment. Trifle. Put this card into play with 1 counter on it, plus one counter for each investment in play. During your untap phase, you may move one counter from this card to your pool, or one counter from another investment to this card. Any mortal, ghoul, mage, or werewolf may burn this card as a D action. "So, it'll all collapse if someone submits a complaint?" "Yeah, but the complaints office is only open from nine until noon..." Crooked Trader - Ally - !Ventrue - 1 pool Unique Ghoul with 2 life, 0 strength, 1 bleed. Crooked Trader may not block. Crooked Trader may take a +2 stealth action to move a counter from an investment to your pool. (It's possible that one should cost 2 pool.)

> finbury wrote: > I was thinking about what investment cards might be appropriate for a Sabbat set. Sabbat are more about exploiting the Kine than ruling them, so exploitative cards are a better fit thematically. > > That led me to: > > Ponzi Scheme - Master - 1 pool > Investment. Trifle. > Put this card into play with 1 counter on it, plus one counter for each investment in play. During your untap phase, you may move one counter from this card to your pool, or one counter from another investment to this card. Any mortal, ghoul, mage, or werewolf may burn this card as a D action. > "So, it'll all collapse if someone submits a complaint?" > "Yeah, but the complaints office is only open from nine until noon..." > Ya beat me to it! I was trying to think of a good way to implement a ponzi scheme. Here's my take: Malkavian Ponzi Scheme 1 Master. Investment. Put this card into play with 3 + X investment counters, where X is the number of Malkavian Ponzi Schemes in play. The controller of this card may move a counter to his pool during his untap phase. Any Methuselah may take control of this card by using a master phase action and moving one pool to this card. EDIT: I don't think there's enough incentive to steal the card. Stealing the card should add two counters to it, so that it becomes more valuable every time it's taken. But balance of that card does depend on if other investment type cards get printed along with it. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

Shelf Company Action 1 +1 stealth. Put this card in play. During your untap phase, you may move a counter from an Investment you control to a crypt card in your uncontrolled region. Insider Trading Newtwork Action 1 blood +1 stealth. Put this card in play. When this card is in play, Investments you control gain +2 counters when they enter play. When this card leaves play burn an investment you control. If this action is successful, this minion untaps. "Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right. Greed works." Gordon Gekko, Wall Street (played by Michael Douglas) Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

Personal Finance Manager Unique Ally 0 strength. 0 bleed. 1 life. Finance Manager may take a D action to move a counter from an investment to your pool, or to add a counter to an investment from the blood bank. If you control the investment, the action is undirected and at +1 stealth. -Unique to avoid potential abuse. -Frees up Master action by allowing the counters to be pulled to your Pool in the minion phase. -Frees up master slots by allowing Investments to be extended and therefore requiring fewer to be slotted (potentially). -Free cost but fragile mechanic I was just now reflecting on how much I enjoy making up card text. I suggest a new strategy...let the Wookie win.

Collateralised Debt Options Master 2 Master. Investment. You may not control more than one Collateralised Debt Option. Put this card into play with 1 counter for every Master: Location you control. During your untap phase, you may move a counter from this card to your pool. Any minion may take a action to remove a counter from this card. If a Master: Location you control is burned, burn 1 pool. Burn this card when it has no counters. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Collateralised Debt Options > Master > 2 > Master. Investment. > You may not control more than one Collateralised Debt Option. Put this card into play with 1 counter for every Master: Location you control. During your untap phase, you may move a counter from this card to your pool. Any minion may take a action to remove a counter from this card. If a Master: Location you control is burned, burn 1 pool. Burn this card when it has no counters. > What's the link with Investment cards ? They're not locations... Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

It's a potential investment that would seem worth playing in certain kinds of decks. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> I think making it a master card is a bad idea since an investment deck is likely to be heavy on master cards to begin with. > Not that bad. Ok, if you play this card you're going to be 1 turn late, which could be decisive, granted. When you get to use it, at the first point burned from the investment you still a late, BUT beggining with the 2nd point, you have started to actually "win" MPA (since those points have not to be moved later). The question is: how hard is to get bleed or voted? > Also, I feel like if something can be done as a minion card it should if only because this is "Vampire: the Eternal Struggle" not "Methuselah: the Master Card". > ok! so lets play with no masters at all!!... It's just an idea, no reason to get harsh . Anyway, it's just a support strategy, you can't actually "win" using it. > That being said, if it were to be a master card, it should have a burn clause or should be a location. > kumpania? information network? the anarch free press? do they sound to you? (amongst other masters that can be put into play and do not a "direct action burn clause" and are not locations) Hey! we are just "designing", why put limits over imagination? (others than those pointed by the rulebook) I think that a whole strategy can be built over investments using minion cards, masters, events and all kind of minions and that's why i think this thread you started is such a good idea, no reason to get cranky

> Wookie813 wrote: > Personal Finance Manager > Unique Ally > 0 strength. 0 bleed. 1 life. > Finance Manager may take a D action to move a counter from an investment to your pool, or to add a counter to an investment from the blood bank. If you control the investment, the action is undirected and at +1 stealth. > > -Unique to avoid potential abuse. > -Frees up Master action by allowing the counters to be pulled to your Pool in the minion phase. > -Frees up master slots by allowing Investments to be extended and therefore requiring fewer to be slotted (potentially). > -Free cost but fragile mechanic > > I was just now reflecting on how much I enjoy making up card text. > "Like it". Could really help to "unwallpaperize" investments. What about creating more vampires or minions that have skills with investments? Like "+X bleed or +X votes for every investment you control or in play"?

My thoughts about investments: Good pool-per-card (2+) Bad pool-per-MPA (<1) Alan Sovereign increases the pool-per-card. Alan-ADV provides a different use for the investment counters (which eliminates the MPA cost). Merged, he increases pool-per-MPA. In my opinion the only way to make investments playable is to eliminate the high cost of master phase actions, which could be used on the strongest cards in the game. No one plays Ascendance for a reason.

> Ankha wrote: > > > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > > Collateralised Debt Options > > Master > > 2 > > Master. Investment. > > You may not control more than one Collateralised Debt Option. Put this card into play with 1 counter for every Master: Location you control. During your untap phase, you may move a counter from this card to your pool. Any minion may take a action to remove a counter from this card. If a Master: Location you control is burned, burn 1 pool. Burn this card when it has no counters. > > > What's the link with Investment cards ? They're not locations... > This is just an idea for an investment card. It's referring to collateralized debt obligations, which were the principal cause of the recent global financial crisis. These debts instruments were created by putting together an amalgamation of portions of debt from various mortgages on real estate, thus the connection with locations.

Me thinks Aaron knows too much of the ways of the Financial Origami Wizard... "First you take four crappy loans, fold them together with special finance wizard folds and then presto you have one REALLY GOOD Loan right???" Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Me thinks Aaron knows too much of the ways of the Financial Origami Wizard... > > "First you take four crappy loans, fold them together with special finance wizard folds and then presto you have one REALLY GOOD Loan right???" > No, I just listen to a lot of NPR* Financial Origami Wizard. Unique mage ally. 3 pool. 1 life, 0 strength, 1 bleed. The Financial Origami Wizard may dodge once per combat as a strike. As a +1 stealth action, the Financial Origami Wizard may place one collateralized instrument counter on himself. He may not take this action if the number of collateralized instrument counters he has is equal to or greater than the number of locations in play. Each Methusaleh burns X pool during his or her untap phase, where X is the number of collateralized instrument counters. A Methusaleh may avoid this damage once per turn by burning a location he or she controls. "flavor quote forthcoming" *National Public Radio, kind of like BBC programming, for those of you not from the U.S.

Investment-card issues could be made somewhat moot by just rewording all "Investment" to "Investment, trifle". They'd at least be *playable* then, because they'd gain you an instant pool. It's small changes like this that can *easily* be made, *easily* explained, and other than actual card text, have *zero* downside. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

Making them trifles brings the pool-per-MPA up to 1, on par with Ascendance. It's a step in the right direction but I still wouldn't call them playable at that point.

> Dorrinal wrote: > Making them trifles brings the pool-per-MPA up to 1, on par with Ascendance. It's a step in the right direction but I still wouldn't call them playable at that point. > The 'pool-per-MPA' might be 1, but the card-slot-per-pool would be 3-6, not 1 as Ascendance, so they'd be totally playable (not "good", but playable). Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

I love investment cards myself. I realize they're not the most *competitive* thing but they're very flavorful and fun, especially with Alan Sovereign and Wall Street Night. Anything that could be done to make them better while not overpowering them I'd be in favor of. How about this: Hedge Fund Unique Master. Investment. Whenever another Methuselah gains the Edge, put a counter on this card. You may burn X counters from this card to move X counters from an investment card you control to your pool as a master phase action. This works for me both in terms of game mechanics and in terms of flavor - it boosts up the power of other investment cards while actually working somewhat on its own, although a little more slowly.

> KevinM wrote: > > > Dorrinal wrote: > > Making them trifles brings the pool-per-MPA up to 1, on par with Ascendance. It's a step in the right direction but I still wouldn't call them playable at that point. > > > The 'pool-per-MPA' might be 1, but the card-slot-per-pool would be 3-6, not 1 as Ascendance, so they'd be totally playable (not "good", but playable). > I think you meant pool-per-card, which is not affected by your change, but I get your point. We're splitting hairs at this point. Go Team Trifle!