Card idea: Namtaru

Name: Namtaru Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Baali Group: Any (or could be 6) Capacity: 11 Disciplines: DAI DOM FOR OBF POT PRE THA Independent: Namtaru is immune to damage. During each other Methuselah's untap phase, he or she burns 1 pool. When Namtaru comes into play, remove from play a ready Baali of capacity 10 or more you control. +2 bleed. +2 strength. Flight. Infernal. Here's some background about Namtaru and the Baali in general (summary taken from planet-vampire and other sources) Warning: Spoiler! > Their lore is deliberately hazy at best, so generally Shaitan is a tricky issue. There's Shaitan childe of Ashur, who became Huitzilopochtli and awakened in 1996 (Chaos Factor) and then there's also Shaitan who is Nergal, he who wishes to rouse Namtaru to awaken (VtDA-CB:Baali). So this would mean there is more than one Shaitan right? But Gehenna claims Nergal/Shaitan is the only Shaitan, so this problematic. What's the deal? > > Revised also points to that the Baali came from a lowly Mesopotamian slave boy who was Embraced, pointing towards the Shaitan/Huitzilopochtli rather than the origin of the three progenitors (Nergal, Moloch and the Unnamed). Should one simply assume the Baali origin is truly unknown or rather they have multiple progenitors or that simply many claim the mantle of Shaitan? Although the Setites claim Saulot is the 'Father of Demons' in revised. > > Also what do people think the Children are? Demon the Fallen makes an offhanded reference to a Fallen named bel-Namtaru, whose dominion is around Greece. This would make the Children Fallen if Namtaru is one of them. Then again, the non-scenario specific information in Gehenna implies that Namtaru could in fact be an Antediluvian rather than a demon. It also implies that Nergal of the Aralu may be different to Nergal/Shaitan and another Antediluvian. > > Wiki wrote: > Azaneali > One significant historical bloodline of the Baali are called Azaneali; the result of a pact between a Baali named Azaneal and infernalist Lasombra (angellis ater). Azaneal sought to find the lost city of Mashkan-shapir said to be built over an ancient demonic entity named Namtaru. The Azaneali may replace either Daimoinon or Presence with the Obtenebration discipline. Only twelve such Baali were sired, and they carried the additional weakness of being sterile. It is uncertain if any survived into the modern era.[5] > Namtaru could be a 11-cap vampire requiring a great sacrifice to be brung back to this world. Once awaken, such a vampire couldn't be easily beaten (thus its immunity) and is also called the Plague Bringer (thus its Contagion-like ability). The mix of disciplines comes from Hutizilopochtly and Nergal. Once out, it can be quite powerful, but it is quite hard to reach that point. Considering a player with 6 influence per turn (Information Highway), it requires a 21-pool investment on 4 turns. Even with a Villein on the first vampire out (Nergal for example), it is VERY expensive. It is quite a challenge to put it into play. Another way would be to use a Summon History Trick. It requires though to play a True Brujah with Ankara + Clan Impersonation. Not sure it's a better way to do it. Just as a reminder: if you bring out Namtaru and you don't control any other Baali, it would remove itself from play. Strong as it appears, it may be in fact underpowered. In the end you still get a single vampire with all the weakness big single vampire have (Pentex Subversion, only 1 action etc.) Maybe its Contagion effect could be raised to 2 pool per turn. Thoughts? Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

My first reaction was he is overpowered, but thinking it through he maybe isn't. He defintily is a number 1 Pentex attractor on any table. The only big problem I got with him is the immune to damage ability. Let's say you build a multi-rush deck and he gets a Preternatural Strength + Heroic Might. You can risk to bring him down to 1 blood since he takes no damage and therefore you can attack any target and just taste of vitae like hell. Also he can Disarm just right away. A Disarm - Decapitate multirush? Complete immunity seems to strong to me. Taking half damage rounded up would be strong enough, so he can't auto disarm. He seems like a funky dude though. Wouldn't mind to play something like that. NC for Hungary hunfragment.blogspot.com

Well, interesting. But he is way off points-wise. I'd count it for 21 points, not considerung the disadvantage. 11-caps should have about 14 (11+3). pckvtes.wordpress.com

> Mephistopheles wrote: > The only big problem I got with him is the immune to damage ability. Let's say you build a multi-rush deck and he gets a Preternatural Strength + Heroic Might. You can risk to bring him down to 1 blood since he takes no damage and therefore you can attack any target and just taste of vitae like hell. > > Also he can Disarm just right away. A Disarm - Decapitate multirush? > I don't know if it's a real issue. On paper, it's quite insane but - at 1 blood, he may be targetted by a Sleep of Reason, or any blood stealing ability that would force him to hunt - Decapitate requires him to keep 3 blood at least. In fact, any vampire with Preternatural strength facing anyone who hits for 1 can perform the same trick. > Amenophobis wrote: > Well, interesting. But he is way off points-wise. I'd count it for 21 points, not considerung the disadvantage. > 11-caps should have about 14 (11+3). > That's perfect, he costs 21 point of influence to get out. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

In 8 years of v:tes I have never seen a Sleep of Reason being played But hey I just realized I love your card. I am a big fan of big cap multi rush decks, like my Hardestadt deck was. So I'd be more than happy to play with this guy. NC for Hungary hunfragment.blogspot.com

> Ankha wrote: > > > Amenophobis wrote: > > Well, interesting. But he is way off points-wise. I'd count it for 21 points, not considerung the disadvantage. > > 11-caps should have about 14 (11+3). > > > That's perfect, he costs 21 point of influence to get out. > Um, no. The points formula is there to balance vampires wrt their capacity, disciplines and specials. Each vampire has to be taken for himself, points wise. You can attach a disadvantage (e.g. the vampire-removal thing), to balance the points. However, this is not balanced. You can bring out a 10-cap Baali, and Villein down to 1, then take a big bleed action that costs a blood, and remove him at the end of the influence phase for the Namtaru. How do you properly rate the pool you regained and the actions the vampire took into the disadvantage? You can't. pckvtes.wordpress.com

Amenophobis made a very good point. I have an idea for this Namtaru: seems like he would be just a bad ass and super awesome basic for a new storyline. Something like the Nergal deck was. This time there could be a Namtaru deck. Sounds like a lot of fun to me. NC for Hungary hunfragment.blogspot.com

Immunity to damage is not fun, it just removes some more interaction from the game.

> Amenophobis wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > Amenophobis wrote: > > > Well, interesting. But he is way off points-wise. I'd count it for 21 points, not considerung the disadvantage. > > > 11-caps should have about 14 (11+3). > > > > > That's perfect, he costs 21 point of influence to get out. > > > Um, no. The points formula is there to balance vampires wrt their capacity, disciplines and specials. > Each vampire has to be taken for himself, points wise. You can attach a disadvantage (e.g. the vampire-removal thing), to balance the points. However, this is not balanced. > First of all, according to the "create a clan" rules, he should have 17 points to spend (14 for its capacity, +3 since it's infernal). It cost : 14 (disciplines) + 1 (flight) + 3 (+2 bleed) + 3 (+2 strength) + X (immunity) + Y (contagion like) = 21 + X + Y. But Nergal costs: 12 (disciplines ) + 3 (+2 bleed) + X (card reduction) = 15 + X Cybele and Hutizilopochtly : : 12 (disciplines ) + 1.5 (+1/2 bleed) + Y (MPA) = 13.5 + Y. So rougthly they are already undercosted. I think that spending more than 4 (7 without acceleration) turns influencing a vampire and removing a 10-cap vampire from play (with 2-3 turns where it's vulnerable) is worth the 4+X+Y additional points. > Amenophobis wrote: > You can bring out a 10-cap Baali, and Villein down to 1, then take a big bleed action that costs a blood, and remove him at the end of the influence phase for the Namtaru. > You can't do that in 2 consequent turns. By turn 3, the 10-cap is out. You need 2-3 more turns to get out Namtaru. So you'll play Villein + bleed on turn 6? I guess you'll want to villein earlier not to die. So it leaves the 10-cap vulnerable for 3 turns, until Namtaru comes out. And on turn 7, you're game is over if you don't have that Villein in time. > Amenophobis wrote: > How do you properly rate the pool you regained and the actions the vampire took into the disadvantage? > You can't. > That's true for any vampire. Villein allows you to get all the pool back, so an 11-cap can always be "free". As you said, we must take into account only the vampire's ability and drawbacks when evaluating his capacity, not something that may happen during the game (the fact that you villeined the 10-cap). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Non-existant user wrote: > Immunity to damage is not fun, it just removes some more interaction from the game. > Then Muaziz and Theo are not fun, they're immune to Blood Hunts. Secure Haven isn't neither, because you can't perfom actions any more. And "immune to damage" doesn't mean it can't be beaten in combat or using actions. Steal blood/burn blood does the trick, Coma can send him to torpor etc. It could be nerfed with something like "Immune to non-aggravated damage and treats aggravated damage as normal damage" but I don't fell it needs to be nerfed (but I may be proven wrong). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

If you optimize your library to bring him out asap and have 2 villeins in time you will have to put many master cards into your deck. Once Cybele (for example) is gone you lose that extra mpa and your hand will jam with masters. Considering this and the number of turns to influence while basically not really doing anything might actually lead to him being underpowered. It seems to me that with such a vampire you need very active turns otherwise it's just too late. Many masters to bring him out contradicts with active turns, since your card flow will be interrupted by mentioned masters. There is a narrow line between over and unerpowered here. Will be hard to find it. NC for Hungary hunfragment.blogspot.com

> Mephistopheles wrote: > If you optimize your library to bring him out asap and have 2 villeins in time you will have to put many master cards into your deck. Once Cybele (for example) is gone you lose that extra mpa and your hand will jam with masters. Considering this and the number of turns to influence while basically not really doing anything might actually lead to him being underpowered. > > It seems to me that with such a vampire you need very active turns otherwise it's just too late. Many masters to bring him out contradicts with active turns, since your card flow will be interrupted by mentioned masters. > > There is a narrow line between over and unerpowered here. Will be hard to find it. > Sure. It may even be plainly unplayable because of the setup you need around (lots of Zillah's Valley + Villein, but also cards to do things with it). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I'd say "Immune to damage from vampires" or "immune to hand damage" might be better. (The latter is interesting when you consider how often this guy would be grappling...) But, overall, I don't like how he's basically your entire game. Enkidu is bad enough that way; if this guy dies, you spend the game powerless and annoyed - and if he doesn't, the rest of the table feels powerless and annoyed. And I don't think the game needs more reasons for people to play Pentex. That said: I think Namtaru and the Children are an interesting part of the Baali backstory. There should be some way to bring them in - but I don't think vampires or allies are the right way to go there. Perhaps Namtaru should be something that collects counters over time, and people can take actions to add or remove them. If it has 10 or more, Infernal vampires get bonuses. If it gets 20 counters, everyone loses the game. I mean, you are playing a Methuselah here - if a Cthulhoid monstrosity emerges and starts chewing on a big chunk of the world, I don't think anyone really wins the Jyhad, know what I mean?

> Mephistopheles wrote: > In 8 years of v:tes I have never seen a Sleep of Reason being played > I´ll second that. Also, this vampire can multi-act with for, or? "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> finbury wrote: > I'd say "Immune to damage from vampires" or "immune to hand damage" might be better. (The latter is interesting when you consider how often this guy would be grappling...) > > But, overall, I don't like how he's basically your entire game. Enkidu is bad enough that way; if this guy dies, you spend the game powerless and annoyed - and if he doesn't, the rest of the table feels powerless and annoyed. > > And I don't think the game needs more reasons for people to play Pentex. > > That said: I think Namtaru and the Children are an interesting part of the Baali backstory. There should be some way to bring them in - but I don't think vampires or allies are the right way to go there. > > Perhaps Namtaru should be something that collects counters over time, and people can take actions to add or remove them. If it has 10 or more, Infernal vampires get bonuses. If it gets 20 counters, everyone loses the game. I mean, you are playing a Methuselah here - if a Cthulhoid monstrosity emerges and starts chewing on a big chunk of the world, I don't think anyone really wins the Jyhad, know what I mean? > Yes, there are other options. I was just suggesting one. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > Yes, there are other options. I was just suggesting one. > I like the idea, but agree he need not be a playable minion (given his power level equals or exceeds that of a methuselah) Namtaru's Rising Event. Gehenna. Requires at least one other Gehenna card in play. Do not replace until a methuselah has been ousted. You may use your discard phase action to deal X unpreventable damage to a minion controlled by another methuselah, where X is the number of counters on this card. During your untap phase, add a counter to this card and pass control of it to your predator. edit: Any methuselah may use a master phase action to discard a master card and burn one counter from this card. I suggest a new strategy...let the Wookie win.

> Wookie813 wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > Yes, there are other options. I was just suggesting one. > > > I like the idea, but agree he need not be a playable minion (given his power level equals or exceeds that of a methuselah) > > Namtaru's Rising > Event. Gehenna. > Requires at least one other Gehenna card in play. Do not replace until a methuselah has been ousted. You may use your discard phase action to deal X unpreventable damage to a minion controlled by another methuselah, where X is the number of counters on this card. During your untap phase, add a counter to this card and pass control of it to your predator. > > edit: Any methuselah may use a master phase action to discard a master card and burn one counter from this card. > This one's way too fast to trigger. I think it should come into play with a counter and gain a counter only when it's used. Just think what would happen when it has, like, 4 counters, and after a while there's no minions left on the table. Just a wee bit cumbersome. The Namtaru idea is a fun one, though. Just needs a bit of brainstorming. Personally I think it would be fun to see another variation of the Great Beast. Like, something gathering counters, and when it reaches the top things start dying. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

Sorry if this is abit OOT, but I´ve always personally felt leaning towards a merged text for an advanced Mary the Black since she diablerizes an ancient 4th generation vampire and is later transformed into an archdeamon in wod canon. Costing that properly is another matter, but then you also bring in the step of actuallt merging her and putting the superstar Baali in group 2 which isnt so rife with great Baalis albeit one glaring exception. Merge text could be something along the lines of "If Mary diablerizes an older vampire then yadda yadda" ie remove Mary from the game and put a deamon into play that...insert effect or perhaps simpler Mary gains 4 capacity and superior (insert row of disciplines) and.... Which would make such a super vampire alot harder to get (merging and diablerizing) and fits very snuggly canonwise.