Ishtarri gunners

Description: Bruise & Bleed deck. Balanced rush. Mostly backwards to keep myself alive, then some rush forward to clean the way for some mid to low bleeds (1 to 3). Normally i get 3 vamps ready, sometimes a 4th. The metagame is heavy combat and control. Lots of votes every game and prevention. It usually works fairly good. It's main problem is the lack of defense against powerbleed. Ilombas get the job done when it comes to overide prevention. I know that i need a couple of Glutton and an Archon Investigation, but i believe that you guys can give me some directions Deck Name : Ishtarri gunners Author : Miketheknife Description : An Ishtarri B&B deck Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 5 max: 10 average: 8.25 3x Ayo Igoli (10) Ishtarri (group 4) 3x Undele (9) magaji Ishtarri (group 5) 2x Jibade el-Bahrawi (9) Ishtarri (group 4) 2x Ubende (7) magaji Ishtarri (group 4) 2x Elizabeth Conde (5) Ishtarri (group 4) Library [90 cards] Action [8] 2x Bum's Rush 3x Despiral 2x Fleetness 1x Harass Action Modifier [7] 4x Forced March 3x Freak Drive Action Modifier/Combat [2] 2x Resist Earth's Grasp Action Modifier/Reaction [1] 1x Ishtarri Kholo Ally [2] 2x Procurer Combat [37] 6x Blur 5x Concealed Weapon 4x Flash 2x Majesty 7x Psyche! 3x Pursuit 3x Rolling with the Punches 2x Skin of Steel 5x Taste of Vitae Equipment [6] 6x .44 Magnum Master [19] 3x Aye 1x Dummy Corporation 2x Haven Uncovered 2x Ishtarri Warlord 2x Mbare Market, Harare 2x Perfectionist 1x Port Hunting Ground 1x Powerbase: Luanda 3x Vessel 2x Villein Reaction [6] 4x Familial Bond 2x On the Qui Vive Retainer [2] 2x Ilomba Crafted with : Anarch Revolt Deck Builder. [Thu Sep 29 21:58:17 2011]

For defence you may use: No Secrets from the Magaji Mr Wintrop/Shaman Intercept locations Lost in Translation NC Belarus

I think that in a 90 card deck the minimum amount of .44 magnum/concealed you should play is 8/8. Even with Dreams of the Sphinxes in my decks I find it sometimes hard to get one in time. Also 5 Rush actions only? Can't imagine that to be enough. NC for Hungary hunfragment.blogspot.com

> For defence you may use: > > No Secrets from the Magaji > Mr Wintrop/Shaman > Intercept locations > Lost in Translation > Good ideas. I`ll add 2x no secrets, 1x Mr. Wintrop and 1x Shaman instead of the familial bond. I was a little resistant to the idea of adding more actions because already moves a lot, but the lack of defense was its weak point. Lost in traslation does not work in my metagame, too much big caps. I'm gonna evaluate the intercept location after i got to test the first changes. > I think that in a 90 card deck the minimum amount of .44 magnum/concealed you should play is 8/8. Even with Dreams of the Sphinxes in my decks I find it sometimes hard to get one in time. > > Also 5 Rush actions only? Can't imagine that to be enough. > True, i have problems finding my guns, but i think 8 is too many. I'll give a try with a 7th (and an aditional concealed). The rush usually works fine, thanks to PB: Luanda and Haven Uncovered, but i'll try to squeeze an aditional fleetness. I really appreciate your comments, but now i have another question: what do i get rid of (considering the changes that i will make)?

> miketheknife wrote: > > I really appreciate your comments, but now i have another question: what do i get rid of (considering the changes that i will make)? > Lol, that is alway my fav. question. I honestly think that you don't need those Procurers. So there you have space for +1 magnum, +1 concealed. 6 Blur might be overkill, so I'd say -1 Blur +1 Fleetness and we have covered the spave for the cards I suggested. NC for Hungary hunfragment.blogspot.com

> I really appreciate your comments, but now i have another question: what do i get rid of (considering the changes that i will make)? > Oh that's pretty easy; hear me out. The deck looks extremely unfocused to me. First and foremost there seems to be an overkill in combat defense. Majesties and prevention don't go too well with guns. You're the dangerous guy, not the other dude. Generally speaking, a gun combat module consists of Concealed Weapons, a LOT Phsyche and some Taste of Vitae. Some Blurs/Side Strike can be mixed in to add some flavor (as well as enable bigger Tastes) and reduce your predictability but that's it. Sideslip is a pretty good card for this kind of decks as it can prevent aggropoke, cancel out Target Vitals-enhanced pokes for 1 and doubles up as a dodge if you really need it. Combat Section Remove everything that's not Psyche, Taste of Vitae or a Concealed Weapon. Add Concealed Weapons and "flavor" combat (Flash, Blur, Sideslip) to add up to 30-32 cards. Net gain: +3 cardslots. Secondly, the decks seems to be cluttered with random cards that seem to serve no real purpose other than being cards Ishtarri can play. Specifically: Procurer, Aye, Familial Bond, Ilomba and Ishtarri Kholo have no place in this deck. I also think Despiral is not worth it in this deck as you lack actions/untap to add the counters, making it strictly inferior to just +bleed actions. They should be Entrancemnet and/or Legal Manipulations. Operation cleanup: Remove 2x Procurer, 3x Despiral, 2x Ilomba, 4x Familial Bond, 1x Ishtarri Kholo. Add 5x Legal Manipulations and/or Entrancement and 2 more wakes. Also add 2 rushes. Net gain: +3 cardslots. The Master section needs cleanup too. There's really zero need for 2 Mbaare Markets. Glutton is a painfully obvious addition that's missing as well. I don't think Dummy Corporation is worth it either. Ishtarri Warlord is a toss-up as it gives you a press and an extra maneuver, basically providing a minion with a permanent Flash. The question is, is it worth paying 1 pool and an MPA over playing a few extra Flash, given that I don't think you should actually play a lot of Flash in the first place. I'd stick with them for now and see how it works out. Thin out the combat section accordingly. Also - Fame. Masters Remove: 3x Aye, 1x Mbaare Market, 1x Dummy Corporation Add: 2x Glutton, 1x Fame Net gain: +2 master slots

Though I can't argue with any of Izaak's points (he is perfectly right) there just one comment I have to make: Focusing decks, like Izaak mentioned, is the right thing to do if you want to be successful. However there is always the fun factor in casuals when you totally surprise the table. Like a Majesty to untap and bleed to oust with a Gunner deck... NC for Hungary hunfragment.blogspot.com

> Mephistopheles wrote: > Like a Majesty to untap and bleed to oust with a Gunner deck... > Majesty/Meld+Psyche! is legit tech for heavy multirush decks. But when you also have access to superior Freak Drives? It's a surprising play but only because there are better ways to achieve the exact same goal. miketheknife: Invest in Undele's special. It's stupidly good and will win many games.

First of all, thanks a lot to all of you, yours comments have been very constructive and usefull. This really deck grew fond in me. I'm a real Cel/gun fan (actually, kind of an addict), and i built this deck for fun playing (that's why it looks unfocused, 'cause it is ), but suddenly it started to show good results, that's why i asked for your help, and i really appreciate that. > Combat Section > Remove everything that's not Psyche, Taste of Vitae or a Concealed Weapon. Add Concealed Weapons and "flavor" combat (Flash, Blur, Sideslip) to add up to 30-32 cards. > > Net gain: +3 cardslots. > I think i can't get down to this number, the metagame is really combative, the combat defense is needed. > Secondly, the decks seems to be cluttered with random cards that seem to serve no real purpose other than being cards Ishtarri can play. Specifically: Procurer, Aye, Familial Bond, Ilomba and Ishtarri Kholo have no place in this deck. I also think Despiral is not worth it in this deck as you lack actions/untap to add the counters, making it strictly inferior to just +bleed actions. They should be Entrancemnet and/or Legal Manipulations. > They are not "that random", but you are right in many things: procurers and kholo are usefull in some cases, but they help to unfocus the deck, so i'll take them out and see how it works. Familial Bond was an attempt to build a defense strategy, but it's not enough, i'll addthe block module meph suggested. Aye's are really needed, every tournament is almost sure that i'll see some DotB. Ilomba is the deck signature and fortitud/protean prevention is seen every game. I'll study their permanency after a first test. About Despiral, i tried to build an out strategy around them, but their eficiency has been low. Im gonna try with Fame and 2x entrancement in those slots. > The Master section needs cleanup too. There's really zero need for 2 Mbaare Markets. Glutton is a painfully obvious addition that's missing as well. I don't think Dummy Corporation is worth it either. Ishtarri Warlord is a toss-up as it gives you a press and an extra maneuver, basically providing a minion with a permanent Flash. The question is, is it worth paying 1 pool and an MPA over playing a few extra Flash, given that I don't think you should actually play a lot of Flash in the first place. I'd stick with them for now and see how it works out. Thin out the combat section accordingly. Also - Fame. > I usually get Mbaare suddened, that's why i use 2. I could try to recover them with Undele's special, but i have a hard time trying to pass votes. Glutton definitely in, Dummy totally out. About warlords, they have proven to be extremely effective and have good sinergy with .44/psyche mechanic. Today i'm gonna make these tweaks later i'll post the 2.0 version. Again, thx a lot!

> miketheknife wrote: > I think i can't get down to this number, the metagame is really combative, the combat defense is needed. > In that case you might want to add 2x Well-Marked for some permanent prevention. And use Soaks instead of Skins, the latter is too marginally useful while the former fully prevents one round of Crows+Bats.

> ...And use Soaks instead of Skins, the latter is too marginally useful while the former fully prevents one round of Crows+Bats. > Even if not from the same source?? I get to see many Crows+Bats tech, if this is right, soak could be very handy. ¿Do you have a link with clarifications about this?

> miketheknife wrote: > > > ...And use Soaks instead of Skins, the latter is too marginally useful while the former fully prevents one round of Crows+Bats. > > > Even if not from the same source?? I get to see many Crows+Bats tech, if this is right, soak could be very handy. ¿Do you have a link with clarifications about this? > Sure. Soak prevents 4 damage. Period. Not "4 damage from one source/a strike/etc." Since all damage are resolved simulteanously, you may prevent the pack of 4 damage. > LSJ wrote: > No. The strike damage and the Wolf Companion damage are simultaneous, and Soak doesn't restrict the nature of the damage prevented. > games.groups.yahoo.com/group/vtes-rules/messages/214?threaded=1&m=e&tidx=1 Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

(Ankha got there first, let's see if I can cancel this message.)

Well I'll attempt to answer where you stated you are weak against, lack of defense against power bleeds. First I gotta ask, what type of power bleed? Is this chuck 5 down the pipe and everyone's bouncing it around, Is this stealth bleeds for 5, or is this someone over-stretching your wakes and pours down bleeds for 5? Because each one has a finesse solution (Terra Incognita, Familial Bond, more wakes), but the best overall solution is adding more wakes. That and at least 2-3 copies of Archon Investigation (or Major Boon) should help immensely. Your Ayes did confuse me, I admit. But if animalism hell (DotB) or Rotschrek is prevalent in your scene, 2-3 is not a bad call. Just be sure those are discretionary slots after the rest of the tight deck is made. If you have a Savannah Runner (+1 int for Laibon cel, or complicated wake), it might not be a bad supporting splash. However focus on surviving power bleeds because that's what you are saying takes you out of the game most.

Edit: Apparently, the cancel button also submits the post... Suaku Inceptor Asian Continental Championship 興っ www.youtube.com/SuakuOz

Many times, advice given on the net is heavily influenced by the metagame of the players giving the advice. Don't get me wrong, all the advice so far have been nothing short of fantastic. Would be good to get a feel of your metagame, though. After looking through your crypt selection, and based on the comments about how combat is prevalent and yet at the same time powerbleeding is commonplace, am I right if I say that your meta is heavy on slow decks and that games tends to take longer than 2hrs each? I just feel that with Ayo's special and multi-acting from Freak Drives and Forced Marches, Enchant Kindred should have a place in there. If you can bring out vamps and pay for gunz without expanding pool, it will go a long way towards your much needed defence. If I am right about your meta, Enchant Kindred will also give you an edge over the other players who are busily setting up. Might I also recommend Hidelburg Castle (to do gun tossing and some blood management if necessary), as well as dropping all the flash for 2-3 more Resist Earth's Grasp. Between the Castle, Concealed Weapon, Resist and Forced March, you should not have problems getting guns on your minions. Suaku Inceptor Asian Continental Championship 興っ www.youtube.com/SuakuOz

First of all, thx to all of you, your advices and critics have been very constructive anda helpful, even though finally they are not seen in this deck version, i evaluated every comment you made. Some of the advices taken: - Defense module: No secrets, Mr. Wintrop and KRCG instead of familial bond. Worked like a charm - Procurers, out. I had them for the blood gain, but finally they were not that necessary. - 1 more .44/concealed: really accelerated the gun availability. - Archon investigation. No comments, worked as expected. Here's the final list (version 2.0) Deck Name : Ishtarri gunners 2.0 Author : Miketheknife Description : An Ishtarri B&B deck Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 5 max: 10 average: 8.25 3x Ayo Igoli (10) Ishtarri (group 4) 3x Undele (9) magaji Ishtarri (group 5) 2x Jibade el-Bahrawi (9) Ishtarri (group 4) 2x Ubende (7) magaji Ishtarri (group 4) 2x Elizabeth Conde (5) Ishtarri (group 4) Library [90 cards] Action [10] 2x Bum's Rush 2x Despiral 3x Fleetness 1x Harass 2x No Secrets From the Magaji Action Modifier [8] 5x Forced March 3x Freak Drive Action Modifier/Combat [2] 2x Resist Earth's Grasp Action Modifier/Reaction [1] 1x Ishtarri Kholo Combat [36] 5x Blur 6x Concealed Weapon 4x Flash 2x Majesty 7x Psyche! 3x Pursuit 2x Rolling with the Punches 2x Skin of Steel 5x Taste of Vitae Equipment [8] 7x .44 Magnum 1x Kduva's Mask Master [20] 1x Archon Investigation 2x Aye 1x Fame 2x Haven Uncovered 2x Ishtarri Warlord 1x KRCG News Radio 2x Mbare Market, Harare 2x Perfectionist 1x Port Hunting Ground 1x Powerbase: Luanda 3x Vessel 2x Villein Reaction [2] 2x On the Qui Vive Retainer [3] 2x Ilomba 1x Mr. Winthrop Crafted with : Anarch Revolt Deck Builder. [Sun Oct 09 21:00:09 2011] Some comments that came up during the testing: - I really didn't get to give a real use for On the Qui Vive. I thought about take them out (i need some comments about this, plz) - Undele: this guy really helped me after the first hour. The hand started to jam with guns and concealed, but he helped me fix my hand. - Despiral + kduva's mask + fleetness: perfect oust strategy. Worked really well, along with fame. I only tested the deck once, because i got really satisfied by how the deck behaved (i got to play 80 cards) I got 1 vp (almost a 2nd, but my prey defended extraordinarily). I was predated by an anarch S&B (light bleed) and predating a Brujah trophy hunter (a really-REALLY strong deck) I ousted the brujah bleeding with despiral+ fleetness (first i burned Dmitra thx to ilomba's strategy), and defended against bleed rushing backwards, blocking and "archon-ing". Later my prey was a ravnos control deck, the anarch S&B got ousted and my predator came to be a Toreador! guns deck (w/ glasser rounds). I almost oust the ravnos, but first i got totally smacked by the toreador. Anyway, the deck performance was good, it may still need some minor tweaking, but at least it's up to a competitive level in my metagame.

> the1andonlime wrote: > Many times, advice given on the net is heavily influenced by the metagame of the players giving the advice. Don't get me wrong, all the advice so far have been nothing short of fantastic. Would be good to get a feel of your metagame, though. > > After looking through your crypt selection, and based on the comments about how combat is prevalent and yet at the same time powerbleeding is commonplace, am I right if I say that your meta is heavy on slow decks and that games tends to take longer than 2hrs each? > > I just feel that with Ayo's special and multi-acting from Freak Drives and Forced Marches, Enchant Kindred should have a place in there. If you can bring out vamps and pay for gunz without expanding pool, it will go a long way towards your much needed defence. If I am right about your meta, Enchant Kindred will also give you an edge over the other players who are busily setting up. > > Might I also recommend Hidelburg Castle (to do gun tossing and some blood management if necessary), as well as dropping all the flash for 2-3 more Resist Earth's Grasp. Between the Castle, Concealed Weapon, Resist and Forced March, you should not have problems getting guns on your minions. > Really, my description about my metagame was not very accurate. Our playgroup is really small, the largest tournament have 15 players. The regular number is nearly above 5 players. In a 15 players tournament, you see: - 4 to 7 control decks (lots of block, bounce, prevention). Predominant disciplines: Auspex, Fortitud, Dominate, Animalism (and sometimes protean). Often they have an aggresive combat module. - 3 to 4 heavy combat decks (rush and burn). Predominant disciplines: Potence, Protean, Fortitude, Celerity. - 0 to 5 bleeders. Normally, heavy bleeders with dominate, but the spectrum is really wide (from low caps dominate bleed w/block denial to large cap S&B and some S&B based decks with toolbox support) - 0 to 2 Weenies. (normally none, but never more than 2) - 0 to 2 vote decks. Presence based large cap votes. Lately, not seen often. - Rarely an imbued shows up. The ready zone always looks full of large vampires, almost always with votes. Lots of permanents too. Because of this characteristic is that the weenies or smart bleeders that show up have a good chance of wining, or are beaten up early in the game (i'd say that their chance to win a game is about 70%, always depending on their prey-predator early hand). One of our players that shows up not to often plays a pander vote deck with events: he always make it to the final (with that deck). I hope this description is more accurate ^.^ Cheers!